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    Default City hexes and Archons

    Why is almost everyone assuming that non-GK forces can't move through different city zones of GK when it isn't their turn? Everything I've read on the subject indicates that GK functions as a single hex.

    To put it another way, Charlie's Archons are free to attack the tower, dungeon, garrison, or anything else in GK that they want because units are free to move anywhere they want in a hex regardless of turn.

    To put it another another* way, we know that hex walls are impenetrable by units whose turn it isn't. Is anyone really advocating that a croaked archon would stop falling at the GK airspace boundary simply because it isn't Charlie's turn?

    *repetition intentional

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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    Why is almost everyone assuming that non-GK forces can't move through different city zones of GK when it isn't their turn? Everything I've read on the subject indicates that GK functions as a single hex.

    To put it another way, Charlie's Archons are free to attack the tower, dungeon, garrison, or anything else in GK that they want because units are free to move anywhere they want in a hex regardless of turn.
    We know that the defenders can move between zones within GK off-turn. The fact that units can move within GK without expending Move suggests that units of any side can do so.

    Looking back at the fakeout with the tunnel scouts, Ansom is fooled into thinking that they'd encountered "a main garrison stack". That indicates that it's possible for invading units to enter via the tunnels and encounter the garrison (if not stopped by defenders in the tunnels) all in the same turn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMB View Post
    Looking back at the fakeout with the tunnel scouts, Ansom is fooled into thinking that they'd encountered "a main garrison stack". That indicates that it's possible for invading units to enter via the tunnels and encounter the garrison (if not stopped by defenders in the tunnels) all in the same turn.
    I'd say, just to expand on this, that he thought his units had actually gone as far as the dungeons (the underground part of the main garrison).

    On the other hand, I wouldn't assume that the archons can just wander about with impunity all over the main garrison. To get to the dungeons, where Parson could decide to make his last stand, they would need to take over either the tower or the courtyard. That buys Parson some time to act.

    "For purposes of attack, tower borders airspace, courtyard borders outer walls, dungeon borders tunnels."
    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0129.html
    Last edited by DevilDan; 2008-12-10 at 11:19 AM.
    Quo vadis?

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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDan View Post
    On the other hand, I wouldn't assume that the archons can just wander about with impunity all over the main garrison. To get to the dungeons, where Parson could decide to make his last stand, they would need to take over either the tower or the courtyard. That buys Parson some time to act.
    I agree. I only meant that there are no rules stopping Archons from moving anywhere in GK. There are definately GK troops in their way though.

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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Okay, I know it's bad policy to explain as the narrative is going on. Maybe a sign of bad storytelling that I feel like I have to. My fault, if so. But I can't watch you guys squirm any more. Future pages will touch on some of this, but it's very, very simple.

    • You can only move when it is your turn.
    • When it is not your turn, and someone moves into the space you're on (meaning hex or city zone), then you can engage them.
    • Every side gets exactly one turn a day.
    • There is a natural turn order. When sides ally, their next turn is shared at the latest slot in the day of any of the allied sides.

    On this day, Charlescomm has had their turn. The Archons ended that turn in Gobwin Knob's airspace. If they ally with Jetstone (I am not saying they will), then they do not get another turn until tomorrow, after Gobwin Knob's next turn. If they don't ally, they'll go before Gobwin Knob. Either way, until their next turn, the Archons can only engage units that enter Gobwin Knob's airspace.

    I think the main thing that's confusing people is this:
    • If you own the city, you can move around in it without move cost.

    That means even zone to zone, and even when it is not your turn, so the constraint does not apply to the defenders. Sorry if that's confusing, but it was more or less explained in a Klog.

    I promise there is no long, complicated set of rules being made up to satisfy plot conditions. It's a simple list, and the plot will play out without breaking them, or inventing new ones.

    For Book 2 and beyond, there will be a wiki for this stuff. I look forward to helping flesh it out.
    Rob Balder, Erfworld author/co-creator, and creator of PartiallyClips

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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Quote Originally Posted by pclips View Post
    • You can only move when it is your turn.
    • When it is not your turn, and someone moves into the space you're on (meaning hex or city zone), then you can engage them.
    Those two I clearly understood already.

    But it is interesting to know that the freedom of movement as listed by klog only applies to those in control (those in "ownership") of a city.
    Last edited by DevilDan; 2008-12-10 at 01:17 PM.
    Quo vadis?

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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Before I even begin, I assume that you actually wrote your rule-list down before you began writing the comic in earnest. Any confusions that arise are the result of either bloopers, missing explanation(a rule used before being explained), or more commonly, reader misinterpretation.

    Everything you said here is explained well enough throughout the comic for me, except this:

    Quote Originally Posted by pclips View Post
    the Archons can only engage units that enter Gobwin Knob's airspace.
    Which essentially translates into "city zones function as hexes for all sides except the side that controls said city". I've searched the klogs, and klog 11 and 13 are the only ones I can find that mention anything. Klog 13 doesn't mention turns, move, or anything similar. Klog 11 says "...but they're all considered part of the city, so we can deploy and redeploy units without expending move." To me, klog 11 sounds as if city zones all count as if they are only one hex, which would be contrary to what you're saying. It would also be the easiest place to make an alteration to the archives to make this rule clear, prior to GK being seiged.


    Ok, moving on, now that we know that the rule is that way.
    Um...So does that mean that the Archon that is dealing with Ansom is located in the wall zone, rather than the airspace zone? If she is in the Airspace, how can she get close enough to a non-flier to make a contract?

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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Quote Originally Posted by pclips
    the Archons can only engage units that enter Gobwin Knob's airspace.
    Okay this was what I think everyone was unclear on. Parson kind of implied it when he was only worried about units that took off, but we had nothing that was cut and dry.

    Hey I can make more speculation now...
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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    I see nothing wrong with adding new rules as the story develops, so long as it doesn't create major inconsistancies. After all, it's a story about a game first, and a game with a story second.

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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Hah, I knew it. Except the natural turn order, that was new.
    Just something I might add: Can a commander-unit decide to move into a hex a not attack a no allied unit on his turn, but freely decide to do so late on someone else's turn?
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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Quote Originally Posted by Welf von Ehrwal View Post
    Hah, I knew it. Except the natural turn order, that was new.
    Just something I might add: Can a commander-unit decide to move into a hex a not attack a no allied unit on his turn, but freely decide to do so late on someone else's turn?
    In the battle over the lake, either side Parson warned his units not to attack Jillian's.
    Quo vadis?

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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Quote Originally Posted by Welf von Ehrwal View Post
    Just something I might add: Can a commander-unit decide to move into a hex a not attack a no allied unit on his turn, but freely decide to do so late on someone else's turn?
    I assume that "do so" refers to attacking, not moving (we know that you can't move into a different hex when it's not your turn).

    So far, we haven't seen the question (voluntarily not attacking, and staying in contact when your turn ends) come up (the closest we've had to that situation is the Archons hanging around in GK airspace, but evidently airspace doesn't count as being "in contact" with the other zones of GK).
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2008-12-10 at 01:47 PM.

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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    If she is in the Airspace, how can she get close enough to a non-flier to make a contract?
    I'll answer this one question as an example of "yes, we did think about this stuff before we started writing." And then I'll stop before I get any farther into the tar pit of explaining the rules while we are telling the story.

    Do you remember when Ansom was getting word passed along through the column about the results of Parson's attack? That was not on the Coalition's turn, but physical notes were still being passed between hexes. Did we specifically show a note passed across a hex? No. The story didn't need it. Compared to showing the abortive celebrations of the Coalition's leadership corps, it's dramatically trivial.

    But that's what happened. I thought about it. I knew about it. We didn't show it.

    Now, if you are seriously hung up on whether or not Ansom could touch a magical button projected in the air by an Archon hovering just above the city wall, then you are not really granting us any license at all for a joke, you know? There's occasionally some humor in this comic. The EULA joke is meant to make you laugh.

    But yes, okay. It is absolutely physically possible for the Archons to project an image into the air, which Ansom, standing on the wall top, can see and touch.

    We are telling a story set in a whole alien universe here. We have mythologies and character histories and world mechanics backing this up, but it's the story that matters. I care ten times more about Sizemore's emotional state in the heat of battle than I do about whether or not a sourmander could spit acid across a hex boundary. (But I still know the answer.)

    As this goes along, some mechanics are going to be unclear at times. Please trust that we've thought about these things to the extent needed to support the story. We're not going to pull any major cheapness in how we tell the tale, and we have not written ourselves into a corner.

    In fact, the script for Book 1 is complete. It's over 100,000 words.
    Rob Balder, Erfworld author/co-creator, and creator of PartiallyClips

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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    1. That are a lot of words.
    2. Pity, that I can't have these 100.000 words on Xmas.
    3. I think no one (that counts) thought you have written yourselves in a corner.
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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    So, if Ansom is now on the walls and the archons can only attack units in the airspace, then all an alliance would do is delay Charlies next turn to after Parsons. The undead will swarm and capture Ansom if the archons cannot engage them.

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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Quote Originally Posted by pclips View Post
    I'll answer this one question as an example of "yes, we did think about this stuff before we started writing." And then I'll stop before I get any farther into the tar pit of explaining the rules while we are telling the story.
    Thanks, thats even more information than I needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by pclips View Post
    Do you remember when Ansom was getting word passed along through the column about the results of Parson's attack? That was not on the Coalition's turn, but physical notes were still being passed between hexes. Did we specifically show a note passed across a hex? No. The story didn't need it. Compared to showing the abortive celebrations of the Coalition's leadership corps, it's dramatically trivial.

    Now, if you are seriously hung up on whether or not Ansom could touch a magical button projected in the air by an Archon hovering just above the city wall, then you are not really granting us any license at all for a joke, you know? There's occasionally some humor in this comic. The EULA joke is meant to make you laugh.
    Do you remember when we tried using the batcam's to say that Vinny(or the bats) were color-blind? We tend to take everything as binding, despite knowing that some things aren't. This is our problem as readers and forum-goers. Knowing that the EULA thing is on par with the batcam, as far as canon goes, I'm moving on.

    Quote Originally Posted by pclips View Post
    But that's what happened. I thought about it. I knew about it. We didn't show it.

    We are telling a story set in a whole alien universe here. We have mythologies and character histories and world mechanics backing this up, but it's the story that matters. I care ten times more about Sizemore's emotional state in the heat of battle than I do about whether or not a sourmander could spit acid across a hex boundary. (But I still know the answer.)
    First, let me clarify that I have tremendous esteem for this comic. In fact, I just described it as the most polished comic I currently read(ctrl-alt-del, 8-bit, dominic deegan, Schlock Mercenary, LFG, LICD, Girl Genius, and bobngeorge are some of my other favorites) to my last cab customer. Considering the comic list I gave, thats a prestigious title you hold in my opinion. You guys have taken the time to create a comic that is more than just a story. On top of the compelling storyline, you have extreme artwork, creative in-jokes from sound-effects to spell names to characters, yet the most unique draw, for me, is the inclusion of coherent and binding game mechanics.

    Second, I'll admit, I thought it was possible that you missed that. However, I wasn't intending to make it sound as if that was the only way we could arrive at this. Frankly, I still find it odd that two units can interact physically and still be considered to be in different 'zones' which prevents them from attacking each other. As of this post, I've stopped seeking answers to that and have resigned myself to just accepting it as it is what it is.

    Third, for myself, I would love to get my hands that info about attacks crossing hex borders or not.

    Fourth, as a general rule, I tend only to care about a comic as much as I think its creator does. I wouldn't bother e-mailing bobngeorge over a perceived plothole. That comic opened and filled so many of those, I would've been exhausted reporting them all. You have taken the time to make rules for this comic's world, and to make them incredibly consistent. Thus, when I see what appears to me to be an inconsistency of the rules in the comic, I'm more concerned because I believe that consistency of these rules are important to you*. In this case, I was apparently not understanding the rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by pclips View Post
    As this goes along, some mechanics are going to be unclear at times. Please trust that we've thought about these things to the extent needed to support the story. We're not going to pull any major cheapness in how we tell the tale, and we have not written ourselves into a corner.
    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook
    Before I even begin, I assume that you actually wrote your rule-list down before you began writing the comic in earnest.
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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Well said, pclips.

    As a gm with a long term homebrew world, i don't feel the need to explain every detail to my players, but if they ask me, i either already know the answer or i just put myself there for a moment and realize what the answer is. I assume it's the same for any world creator.

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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    First, let me clarify that I have tremendous esteem for this comic. In fact, I just described it as the most polished comic I currently read(ctrl-alt-del, 8-bit, dominic deegan, Schlock Mercenary, LFG, LICD, Girl Genius, and bobngeorge are some of my other favorites) to my last cab customer. Considering the comic list I gave, thats a prestigious title you hold in my opinion.
    Reads like As a proven expert on webcomics, I... ;)

    But yes, I have to agree. I remember when I saw the first page. I looked at it and thought: meh, another fantasy webcomic. Boring.

    After maybe 20 pages, Erfworld got me. It's like a drug. Whenever a new page is uploaded, I read each panel trice to enjoy it a bit longer. When I'm done with the page I am feeling a little bit down knowing that I will have to wait for quite a long time for the next page.

    This webcomic stands out. It isn't the artwork. It isn't the jokes. It isn't the story. It is the combination. It is how these different parts interact. The story is well written and interesting and using the artwork in a quite unique way. Also, I have always been a fan of masterminds (anyone remember Thrawn?).

    And I have to add that this was the only thing which maybe wasn't explained that well within the art and the story. Everything else has been reasonable and explained or foreshaded. At least that's my point of view.

    I hope that we will be able to read a little bit about the artist once the first book is available. Webcomics with such a quality are rare (in fact, this is the first one I know of).

    I am sorry, I just needed to say this. After reading the last page, the buildup of Ansoms destruction is ingenious. The EULA-joke reminded me of a classical pact with the devil, created out of despair.
    Last edited by MirEgal; 2008-12-10 at 03:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MirEgal View Post
    Reads like As a proven expert on webcomics, I... ;)
    Sir, I hope you are joking. I only make that list because calling a comic the 'best' only has a meaning if we know what comics it is being compared with. Hence, the list is only there explain my compliment, not any of my other statements.
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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Quote Originally Posted by Godskook View Post
    Sir, I hope you are joking. I only make that list because calling a comic the 'best' only has a meaning if we know what comics it is being compared with. Hence, the list is only there explain my compliment, not any of my other statements.
    Of course I am joking. I fully agree to your post.

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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Quote Originally Posted by Robak View Post
    So, if Ansom is now on the walls and the archons can only attack units in the airspace, then all an alliance would do is delay Charlies next turn to after Parsons. The undead will swarm and capture Ansom if the archons cannot engage them.
    Well, we know that Ansom could engage the units on the city walls while flying. Evidently units on the outer walls can be attacked from airspace (and vice versa if some of the ground units have archery attacks that can reach out and touch air units -- note that Ansom's carpet has a few arrows sticking in it).

    Judging from what we saw just before the battle over the lake, either side (whether on-turn or off-turn) can initiate combat when in contact -- the GK units could have attacked except that the warlords held them back on Parson's orders, and eventually Jillian did initiate the fight. Being on-turn is necessary to move into a different location, and thus gives your side control over coming into contact with enemy units in the first place.
    Last edited by SteveMB; 2008-12-10 at 05:09 PM.

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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Quote Originally Posted by pclips View Post
    Okay, I know it's bad policy to explain as the narrative is going on. Maybe a sign of bad storytelling that I feel like I have to. My fault, if so. But I can't watch you guys squirm any more. Future pages will touch on some of this, but it's very, very simple.

    On this day, Charlescomm has had their turn. The Archons ended that turn in Gobwin Knob's airspace. If they ally with Jetstone (I am not saying they will), then they do not get another turn until tomorrow, after Gobwin Knob's next turn. If they don't ally, they'll go before Gobwin Knob. Either way, until their next turn, the Archons can only engage units that enter Gobwin Knob's airspace.

    I think the main thing that's confusing people is this:
    Thank you Rob, however my main disconnect was not knowing what the turn order had become once the alliance broke the transylvito and charlescomm into their own factions again (verse the as the Erf Turns order) This should had been obvious with the why has our turn not started yet in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0116.html. I clearly understood all the other principles laid out in the Klog's *however not everyone READ & ATTEMPTED to understand them*. Just was not totally certain my conclusion was correct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kreszantas View Post
    *however not everyone READ & ATTEMPTED to understand them*.
    *twitch*

    The only people that posted in this thread before PClips corrected us are myself, SteveMB, and DevilDan. I can only assume some of us are among those you refer to. Anyone who reads this forum for very long must quickly come to the conclusion that SteveMB and DevilDan are careful and diligent readers of the comic, and well knowledgeable of its workings, for readers. I don't think you're refering to SteveMB because he doesn't post anything explicitly contrary to PClips. DevilDan and I had the same disconnect, and he definitely 'reads' and 'attempts' to understand the klogs. That we stand in the same boat on this one is all the defence I need on the subject.
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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    The fact that the archons can only hit units in the airspace explains why Parson only worried about an encounter with Charlescomm forces until he was preparing to sortie Wanda's flying stack.

    I can only add that I am thankful to anyone who corrects my mistakes and misapprehensions in whatever fashion he or she sees fit.
    Quo vadis?

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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    For people who are saying that the alliance would have no benifit for Ansom, Where are Wanda's Uncroaked at the moment?

    That's right, the Uncroaked are currently in the Airspace, with the Archons. Ansom might not be able to fend off normal uncroaked with impunity, but he can still get out of there if Webinar and his uncroaked fellows don't capture him.

    If he accepts the contract before the Uncroaked land then the Archons will fry them and save Ansom.

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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Don't forget that Ansoom was carving a passage for the siege. Charlescomm only needs to guard him until the siege moves into the hex with Ansom.

    Also, don't forget that the Archons are casters. They may have some rticks up their sleeves that could deal with any of Hamster's forces trying to move into the hex with Ansom. The rules for defending airspace may not apply to spells. (69. The Archons could choose how much power they used when attacking the dwagons, and further the spells had range, which may be all they need to massacre ground forces with impunity.)

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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    The tricky part, the part we were missing, is the fact that an alliance is only formed on a new turn.

    I think that it has now been made clear that the archons can only engage in combat with units in GK's airspace. Presumably they can do something to either help the siege or to protect Ansom. But they cannot, I believe, retake the spot that Ansom was attempting to hold on the wall. This means that the RCC will now find it much harder to breach the outer walls.

    And I don't think Ansom is in any condition to hold his spot again even if he recovers his "mount" and procures a weapon.
    Quo vadis?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDan View Post
    The tricky part, the part we were missing, is the fact that an alliance is only formed on a new turn.

    I think that it has now been made clear that the archons can only engage in combat with units in GK's airspace. Presumably they can do something to either help the siege or to protect Ansom. But they cannot, I believe, retake the spot that Ansom was attempting to hold on the wall. This means that the RCC will now find it much harder to breach the outer walls.

    And I don't think Ansom is in any condition to hold his spot again even if he recovers his "mount" and procures a weapon.

    Right now the immediate danger to Ansom are the Uncroaked Webinar and company currently hurtling towards him from GK airspace. The archons are currently in the Airspace and thus can attack other units in the airspace with Impunity.

    I take it to be similar to the alliance system from assorted RTS's like Warcraft and Starcraft. Except in this case being unaligned simply makes you neutral to all other units, rather than hostile. If the alliance system works like that, then as soon as they ally with Jetstone the GK forces will become enemies and the Archons will be free to engage them.

    They aren't moving anywhere, or attacking something, they are simply fighting within a single Hex against enemies, which we know people can do on other people's turn.

    The only time enemies within a hex didn't attack one another is when they were being led by the uncroaked warlords, which I believe were under the control of Wanda, or one of the other casters. They didn't have any initiative of their own and wouldn't do anything until ordered.

    It doesn't even matter if the archons aren't "officially" allied with Jetstone until the next day. Once Ansom has agreed Charlie will just tell the Archons to attack the GK uncroaked in the airspace and thus save Ansom.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Oct 2008

    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDan View Post
    The tricky part, the part we were missing, is the fact that an alliance is only formed on a new turn.
    I might've missed it, but I didn't get that from the Author's post. As I understood it, the Archons have had a turn today, and that when that turn ended, their 'move' stat was set to zero*. This isn't changed until the Archons' turn tomorrow, which may or may not be on RCC's turn or on Charlie's natural turn. From all that, I got that the Alliance can form now, but the Archons can't move on RCC's turn until tomorrow, if so chosen.


    *Not meant to be the actual mechanic, just an effectively similar one for the sake of explaining my point.
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  30. - Top - End - #30
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    Default Re: City hexes and Archons

    Quote Originally Posted by DevilDan
    The tricky part, the part we were missing, is the fact that an alliance is only formed on a new turn.

    I think that it has now been made clear that the archons can only engage in combat with units in GK's airspace. Presumably they can do something to either help the siege or to protect Ansom. But they cannot, I believe, retake the spot that Ansom was attempting to hold on the wall. This means that the RCC will now find it much harder to breach the outer walls.

    And I don't think Ansom is in any condition to hold his spot again even if he recovers his "mount" and procures a weapon.
    That weak point, notice how the undead have not filled it in yet? If we can go by that those undead are not moving. Thats a weak point until someone gives them orders. So now its a race, if Ansom sells his soul/kingdom/treasury/Parson before the fliers land he will have some time. Then if the wall is breached before the undead re-swarm, he may get rescued...
    or die; one of the two.

    But, if the fliers land he gets captured; if he gets swarmed, either Wanda or the swarm will break/capture him.
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