City hexes and Archons

[VariaVespasa]

Wanda's stack can fly. Do we know if a unit that can fly can ONLY move by flying, or can they just walk instead (perhaps at a lower rate), if they happen to feel like it? Can her stack land, capture Ansom and then just walk down the ramps off the walls thus avoiding the Archons this turn? And can they move a prisoner captured this turn on the enemy turn? I would think they can, but its a bit of an unusual circumstance so I'm wondering if we have any info on that one way or the other?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Well, we know that Ansom could engage the units on the city walls while flying.

How far above the wall before you wind up in the "Airspace" zone? There's bound to be some level of clearance, and he's really only flying just above the enemies' heads.

[DevilDan]

It doesn't even matter if the archons aren't "officially" allied with Jetstone until the next day. Once Ansom has agreed Charlie will just tell the Archons to attack the GK uncroaked in the airspace and thus save Ansom.

They can protect Ansom only from the flying undead, I believe.

That weak point, notice how the undead have not filled it in yet? If we can go by that those undead are not moving.

We've gotten into trouble before for assuming that what is shown in a panel will stay the same for even a few seconds.

Wanda's stack can fly. Do we know if a unit that can fly can ONLY move by flying, or can they just walk instead (perhaps at a lower rate), if they happen to feel like it?

We've seen Vinnie standing on the ground and walking, I believe. If archons could only "fly" by game terms (what I am asking is whether they can be considered to be "on the ground" even if they're floating a few inches above it), then how could they attack units officially outside the "airspace" area, such as inside the main garrison?

[kreszantas]

With the speech bubble in the way this is closest to having the Archons on the ground I could find http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0056.html and from where Charlie first contacted them, but at that distance anything can be made to look on the ground.

I believe it is a unit classification that limits it not whether or not it can be on or off the ground the same as Bogroll has 0 move and is limited to GK due to his Garrison classification, there must or is a mechanic that is not visible within a "plot/story" that would explain every units abilities. Using http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html as the basis, due to Parson saying there is "probably a million more I don't know about yet"

Let's sit back and read the story first then put in the pieces of the puzzle as we get them. I find myself going back and reading several strips in the past and the klogs to get a better understanding of the mechanics. I am a gamer first / story interested second in general terms, however Erfworld has actually changed my order thinking to make the mechanic(s) we see and read fit into the "plot/story" principle.

[VariaVespasa]

How far above the wall before you wind up in the "Airspace" zone? There's bound to be some level of clearance, and he's really only flying just above the enemies' heads.

I dont think we know, exactly, but I get the impression that its not far and is sorta variable. I think it generally defaults to at least 20-30 feet (beyond things like spidew spitting range, forinstance), and more usually 200+ feet, but *can* be almost ground level for at least brief moments, as in the archon currently offering Ansom the contract to sign. But I think its mainly a metaphysical label- you declare yourself to be in the ground zone or the airspace zone (maybe expending some move to change zones?) and you are, and every other unit can see which zone youre in, even if we, with non-unit vision, cant always tell for sure in some cases.

[Lamech]

We've gotten into trouble before for assuming that what is shown in a panel will stay the same for even a few seconds.

I looked at both this comic and the one before it, but I didn't look closely. I am in fact wrong; numerous undead have moved from the back of the wall to the front. The undead do have movement. It does remain to be seen if that includes filling up the gap, or swarming Ansom. If either happen the walls will not be breached for quite some time and Ansom will be in trouble.

[Crod]

Some thoughts, correct me if you think it's wrong.

The uncroaked on the wall must attack Ansom as they are unled and he's in their zone. The Archons cannot help him there, because they are in another zone (although hovering very near him). But, maybe they can pick him up if he manages to get into their zone. Theoretically just by jumping up?

On another issue. Did Ansom actually spend move to get attacked in the airspace, or did he get attacked really high up flying, but still technically in the wall zone? Does falling between zones cost move? Okay, I'm stretching it on purpose, but it will matter regarding to how much the Archons can help him.

I'm finding myself really looking forward to each new update. It's not just a comic, it's a whole game system that we are slowly learning, just like Parson is. And I think that's what's making it so unique and great.

[DevilDan]

The uncroaked on the wall must attack Ansom as they are unled and he's in their zone. The Archons cannot help him there, because they are in another zone (although hovering very near him). But, maybe they can pick him up if he manages to get into their zone. Theoretically just by jumping up?

I've been considering similar scenarios myself, as this seems the only way in which the archons can directly protect Ansom.

Now, what if Charlie's remit allows him to negotiate a profitable ceasefire or other sort of deal with Parson? After all, Parson would have to jump at a deal that would save GK (putting it under archon protection? Or could Charlie somehow now have the authority to call off the RCC?) from both the RCC and Charlescomm.

[dr pepper]

Charlie's previous offer to Parson to jump into the net implies that you can place yourself in airspace, at least temporarily, even if you aren't a flier.

[Godskook]

Charlie's previous offer to Parson to jump into the net implies that you can place yourself in airspace, at least temporarily, even if you aren't a flier.

That was on Charlie's turn. Those Archons could've gone inside the tower and attempted to grab Parson by force if they wanted.

[Fighteer]

That was on Charlie's turn. Those Archons could've gone inside the tower and attempted to grab Parson by force if they wanted.

Parson can also move between city zones when it is not his turn, as his side is in control of GK.

It seems to me that a flying unit is automatically in the airspace zone as long as it is not on the ground, and such can be attacked by other fliers (or by archers) regardless of whose turn it is. On its turn, a flier can choose to engage units on the walls or in the tower but is still considered to be in the airspace unless it lands.

I'm not entirely clear on the rules governing melee vs. ranged weapons in this situation, but it makes sense that a flying unit with ranged attacks could engage melee units on the walls with impunity, only being subject to ranged fire (archers) in return, but a melee unit like Ansom has to get close enough to be vulnerable to counterattack.

As an aside, I love how strong the underlying world mechanics are in this comic. Besides creating a great deal of food for debate, this contributes to suspension of disbelief by allowing the story to proceed without tripping over logical inconsistencies.

[Kreistor]

It seems to me that a flying unit is automatically in the airspace zone as long as it is not on the ground, and such can be attacked by other fliers (or by archers) regardless of whose turn it is.

I don't think there's evidence for this yet. Units with a warlord can choose to defend when another unit of a different side enters the hex, this much is certain. The archers got their hitsies on the dragons when they moved in.

However, we do not have evidence that a unit can arbitrarily choose to attack on a third party's turn. Wanda goes to defend against Ansom on Ansom's turn.

Further, Wanda entered airspace from Tower, the only possible transfer point. Most people think that this is in the same hex, so for the moment assume the two zones are. Airspace can attack Tower. But Parson did not warn Charlie that units were coming into Tower, but into Airspace. The Archons could not attack the new units in Tower. Because it was Ansom's turn? Or because attacking into a different zone requires Move? If the latter, Ansom is no longer in Airspace: he's in Outer Wall which Charlie does not occupy, and Ansom doesn't own yet. Its only free movement for GK ATM. That means the Archons cannot attack Wanda's uncoraked, if they enter Outer Walls, since Wanda orders, "Land, and engage." Oute wall borders courtyard, so they'll take Ansom back that way, not through Airspace where Charlie could interfere.

This question may be answered soon. If Ansom signs Charlie up, the Archons will be in the hex, but not yet allied, since that seems to occur at the end of a turn. If the Archons attack the uncroaked engaging Ansom before they land, then you're right. But if they cannot stop the uncroaked, because they passed on defending the hex already, then you're wrong.

[DevilDan]

However, we do not have evidence that a unit can arbitrarily choose to attack on a third party's turn. Wanda goes to defend against Ansom on Ansom's turn.

Except for the fact that Parson was very worried that Charlie would attack Wanda's wing when she went out to take down Ansom during the RCC's turn.

Further, Wanda entered airspace from Tower, the only possible transfer point. Most people think that this is in the same hex, so for the moment assume the two zones are. Airspace can attack Tower.

One would assume, however, that Wanda could go through the courtyard and then into the airspace, which is where she would then be exposed to attacks from the archons. I also don't think that there's much question that the airspace is not the same as the tower, which is part of the main garrison. Units can only move from one zone or hex to another unless they have move and it's their turn or in the case of units defending a city.

I'm pretty sure that it's been said that alliances become effective when a new day begins. Whether Ansom signs or not, the archons cannot move out of GK's airspace and into a different area of GK, whether it be outer wall, courtyard, or tower.

[Godskook]

However, we do not have evidence that a unit can arbitrarily choose to attack on a third party's turn. Wanda goes to defend against Ansom on Ansom's turn.

There is no logical difference between doing choosing to do something on a second party's turn and on a third party's turn. There is a practical difference, in that I'd imagine its rather rare for a unit to have an opportunity to do something on a third party's turn. However, the Archon's have that opportunity, and they can use it, if someone from WAF is unfortunate enough to be in the airspace when Ansom signs the agreement.

[Kreistor]

Except for the fact that Parson was very worried that Charlie would attack Wanda's wing when she went out to take down Ansom during the RCC's turn.

This would be defensive against Wanda's attack. Wanda is entering their zone (airspace), so they would be permitted to defend it against Wanda's attack. there's no inconsistency here. It's not that Wanda is in their airspace, it's that Wanda is moving into enemy occupied terrain which is, by definition, an attack. The Archons are not attacking Wanda, they are defending against Wanda's attack.

Side Note: the Archons, since they do not attack her automatically, must be Commanders at minimum, which since they can cast only makes sense. All casters are Commanders and can lead stacks.

The exceptional thing going on here is that Wanda can move into enemy occupied territory during Ansom's turn. She is moving to reinforce the Outer Wall, so maybe that's permitted, but moving through Airspace is the odd part. It is unnecessary. Ansom is attacking the Outer Wall with melee (not ranged, which might have put him in Airspace), even though he is on the carpet, so he can be attacked from Outer Wall. Wanda is in Tower, and can move freely through the Garrison to Courtyard, and from there to Outer Wall. Move cost remains 0, since all are part of City. There might be a modifier for height, if Wanda attacks down onto Ansom from Airspace, but that's the only mechanical thing I can think of to require Wanda to move through Airspace.

I think Parson may have wanted to test Charlie, and that's why he chose the airspace route. If he can't rely on Charlie to play the game, then he really has no hope whatsoever.

[DevilDan]

This would be defensive against Wanda's attack. Wanda is entering their zone (airspace), so they would be permitted to defend it against Wanda's attack. there's no inconsistency here. It's not that Wanda is in their airspace, it's that Wanda is moving into enemy occupied terrain which is, by definition, an attack. The Archons are not attacking Wanda, they are defending against Wanda's attack.

So just sharing a hex/zone is a de facto attack? Fine by me, since it doesn't affect what I wrote, that a unit can attack other units so long as they're all in the same hex, regardless of whose turn it is.

Side Note: the Archons, since they do not attack her automatically, must be Commanders at minimum, which since they can cast only makes sense. All casters are Commanders and can lead stacks.

I've speculated that the arkendish allows Charlie to command units from afar, acting as a commander. The simpler explanation is what you suggest; I present another possibility. I would also add that it is also possible that only some of the archons are commanders--I like to consider multiple possibilities.

The exceptional thing going on here is that Wanda can move into enemy occupied territory during Ansom's turn. She is moving to reinforce the Outer Wall, so maybe that's permitted, but moving through Airspace is the odd part. It is unnecessary. Ansom is attacking the Outer Wall with melee (not ranged, which might have put him in Airspace), even though he is on the carpet, so he can be attacked from Outer Wall. Wanda is in Tower, and can move freely through the Garrison to Courtyard, and from there to Outer Wall. Move cost remains 0, since all are part of City. There might be a modifier for height, if Wanda attacks down onto Ansom from Airspace, but that's the only mechanical thing I can think of to require Wanda to move through Airspace.

It may be "enemy-occupied territory" [hyphen added by me], but it is still part of GK.

But time was of the essence: defending units don't require "move," but it still takes time, time that Ansom was buying the RCC siege units that had already started to make dents into the wall. Plus, Wanda may have wanted to capitalize on their flight, on what may have been a sneak or diving attack, perhaps something similar to the tactics/attack used by Jillian when attacking the twoll and three uncroaked earlier in the story.

I think Parson may have wanted to test Charlie, and that's why he chose the airspace route. If he can't rely on Charlie to play the game, then he really has no hope whatsoever.

That does not seem unreasonable, but remember that Charlie only agreed to refrain from attacking GK that one day. Parson knows that he can only, at best, trust Charlie to act in his self-interest--with the added caveat that Parson is not going to assume that Charlie's agenda is necessarily as simple as he makes it out to be.

[Walpurgisborn]

*twitch*

The only people that posted in this thread before PClips corrected us are myself, SteveMB, and DevilDan. I can only assume some of us are among those you refer to. Anyone who reads this forum for very long must quickly come to the conclusion that SteveMB and DevilDan are careful and diligent readers of the comic, and well knowledgeable of its workings, for readers. I don't think you're refering to SteveMB because he doesn't post anything explicitly contrary to PClips. DevilDan and I had the same disconnect, and he definitely 'reads' and 'attempts' to understand the klogs. That we stand in the same boat on this one is all the defence I need on the subject.

I believe there was another thread that touched briefly on turn order. I mention that because I (and others) mentioned last turning members turn sets the turn order of the alliance. Turn.