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Thread: City hexes and Archons
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2008-12-10, 11:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
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Re: City hexes and Archons
Wanda's stack can fly. Do we know if a unit that can fly can ONLY move by flying, or can they just walk instead (perhaps at a lower rate), if they happen to feel like it? Can her stack land, capture Ansom and then just walk down the ramps off the walls thus avoiding the Archons this turn? And can they move a prisoner captured this turn on the enemy turn? I would think they can, but its a bit of an unusual circumstance so I'm wondering if we have any info on that one way or the other?
\'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves....
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2008-12-10, 11:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2005
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- By a Park
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2008-12-10, 11:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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Re: City hexes and Archons
They can protect Ansom only from the flying undead, I believe.
We've gotten into trouble before for assuming that what is shown in a panel will stay the same for even a few seconds.
We've seen Vinnie standing on the ground and walking, I believe. If archons could only "fly" by game terms (what I am asking is whether they can be considered to be "on the ground" even if they're floating a few inches above it), then how could they attack units officially outside the "airspace" area, such as inside the main garrison?Last edited by DevilDan; 2008-12-10 at 11:54 PM.
Quo vadis?
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2008-12-11, 12:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
Re: City hexes and Archons
With the speech bubble in the way this is closest to having the Archons on the ground I could find http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0056.html and from where Charlie first contacted them, but at that distance anything can be made to look on the ground.
I believe it is a unit classification that limits it not whether or not it can be on or off the ground the same as Bogroll has 0 move and is limited to GK due to his Garrison classification, there must or is a mechanic that is not visible within a "plot/story" that would explain every units abilities. Using http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0044.html as the basis, due to Parson saying there is "probably a million more I don't know about yet"
Let's sit back and read the story first then put in the pieces of the puzzle as we get them. I find myself going back and reading several strips in the past and the klogs to get a better understanding of the mechanics. I am a gamer first / story interested second in general terms, however Erfworld has actually changed my order thinking to make the mechanic(s) we see and read fit into the "plot/story" principle.Avatar: Red Dwagon decapitating a Cloth Golem, wonderfully drawn by Erfworld Artist Jamie Naguchi, oh yea and Rob Balder
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2008-12-11, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
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Re: City hexes and Archons
I dont think we know, exactly, but I get the impression that its not far and is sorta variable. I think it generally defaults to at least 20-30 feet (beyond things like spidew spitting range, forinstance), and more usually 200+ feet, but *can* be almost ground level for at least brief moments, as in the archon currently offering Ansom the contract to sign. But I think its mainly a metaphysical label- you declare yourself to be in the ground zone or the airspace zone (maybe expending some move to change zones?) and you are, and every other unit can see which zone youre in, even if we, with non-unit vision, cant always tell for sure in some cases.
\'Twas brillig, and the slithey toves....
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2008-12-11, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: City hexes and Archons
Originally Posted by DevilDan
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2008-12-11, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
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- Israel
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Re: City hexes and Archons
Some thoughts, correct me if you think it's wrong.
The uncroaked on the wall must attack Ansom as they are unled and he's in their zone. The Archons cannot help him there, because they are in another zone (although hovering very near him). But, maybe they can pick him up if he manages to get into their zone. Theoretically just by jumping up?
On another issue. Did Ansom actually spend move to get attacked in the airspace, or did he get attacked really high up flying, but still technically in the wall zone? Does falling between zones cost move? Okay, I'm stretching it on purpose, but it will matter regarding to how much the Archons can help him.
I'm finding myself really looking forward to each new update. It's not just a comic, it's a whole game system that we are slowly learning, just like Parson is. And I think that's what's making it so unique and great.
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2008-12-11, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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Re: City hexes and Archons
I've been considering similar scenarios myself, as this seems the only way in which the archons can directly protect Ansom.
Now, what if Charlie's remit allows him to negotiate a profitable ceasefire or other sort of deal with Parson? After all, Parson would have to jump at a deal that would save GK (putting it under archon protection? Or could Charlie somehow now have the authority to call off the RCC?) from both the RCC and Charlescomm.Quo vadis?
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2008-12-11, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: City hexes and Archons
Charlie's previous offer to Parson to jump into the net implies that you can place yourself in airspace, at least temporarily, even if you aren't a flier.
NOGENERATION Aleph(0): Copy this into your sig and add or subtract 1 whenever you feel like it. This is a pointless experiment.
10 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
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2008-12-11, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: City hexes and Archons
Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
SpoilerIn progress:
Prolonged Spell(Fix for Persistent spell)
Weapon Training(replaces Weapon Focus chain)
Shelved:
Ascendant Feats.[New content!]
Finished:
Belts of potionade
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2008-12-23, 11:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Bethlehem, PA
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Re: City hexes and Archons
Parson can also move between city zones when it is not his turn, as his side is in control of GK.
It seems to me that a flying unit is automatically in the airspace zone as long as it is not on the ground, and such can be attacked by other fliers (or by archers) regardless of whose turn it is. On its turn, a flier can choose to engage units on the walls or in the tower but is still considered to be in the airspace unless it lands.
I'm not entirely clear on the rules governing melee vs. ranged weapons in this situation, but it makes sense that a flying unit with ranged attacks could engage melee units on the walls with impunity, only being subject to ranged fire (archers) in return, but a melee unit like Ansom has to get close enough to be vulnerable to counterattack.
As an aside, I love how strong the underlying world mechanics are in this comic. Besides creating a great deal of food for debate, this contributes to suspension of disbelief by allowing the story to proceed without tripping over logical inconsistencies.Last edited by Fighteer; 2008-12-23 at 11:06 AM.
Proud, small, slightly stinky member of the fan club.
Clang, clang, clang goes the trolley / Ring, ring, ring goes the bell.Git away from me, ye daft fool!
Barky! You came back!
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2008-12-23, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- K-W, Canada
Re: City hexes and Archons
I don't think there's evidence for this yet. Units with a warlord can choose to defend when another unit of a different side enters the hex, this much is certain. The archers got their hitsies on the dragons when they moved in.
However, we do not have evidence that a unit can arbitrarily choose to attack on a third party's turn. Wanda goes to defend against Ansom on Ansom's turn.
Further, Wanda entered airspace from Tower, the only possible transfer point. Most people think that this is in the same hex, so for the moment assume the two zones are. Airspace can attack Tower. But Parson did not warn Charlie that units were coming into Tower, but into Airspace. The Archons could not attack the new units in Tower. Because it was Ansom's turn? Or because attacking into a different zone requires Move? If the latter, Ansom is no longer in Airspace: he's in Outer Wall which Charlie does not occupy, and Ansom doesn't own yet. Its only free movement for GK ATM. That means the Archons cannot attack Wanda's uncoraked, if they enter Outer Walls, since Wanda orders, "Land, and engage." Oute wall borders courtyard, so they'll take Ansom back that way, not through Airspace where Charlie could interfere.
This question may be answered soon. If Ansom signs Charlie up, the Archons will be in the hex, but not yet allied, since that seems to occur at the end of a turn. If the Archons attack the uncroaked engaging Ansom before they land, then you're right. But if they cannot stop the uncroaked, because they passed on defending the hex already, then you're wrong.
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2008-12-24, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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Re: City hexes and Archons
Except for the fact that Parson was very worried that Charlie would attack Wanda's wing when she went out to take down Ansom during the RCC's turn.
One would assume, however, that Wanda could go through the courtyard and then into the airspace, which is where she would then be exposed to attacks from the archons. I also don't think that there's much question that the airspace is not the same as the tower, which is part of the main garrison. Units can only move from one zone or hex to another unless they have move and it's their turn or in the case of units defending a city.
I'm pretty sure that it's been said that alliances become effective when a new day begins. Whether Ansom signs or not, the archons cannot move out of GK's airspace and into a different area of GK, whether it be outer wall, courtyard, or tower.Quo vadis?
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2008-12-24, 01:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: City hexes and Archons
There is no logical difference between doing choosing to do something on a second party's turn and on a third party's turn. There is a practical difference, in that I'd imagine its rather rare for a unit to have an opportunity to do something on a third party's turn. However, the Archon's have that opportunity, and they can use it, if someone from WAF is unfortunate enough to be in the airspace when Ansom signs the agreement.
Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
SpoilerIn progress:
Prolonged Spell(Fix for Persistent spell)
Weapon Training(replaces Weapon Focus chain)
Shelved:
Ascendant Feats.[New content!]
Finished:
Belts of potionade
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2008-12-24, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- K-W, Canada
Re: City hexes and Archons
This would be defensive against Wanda's attack. Wanda is entering their zone (airspace), so they would be permitted to defend it against Wanda's attack. there's no inconsistency here. It's not that Wanda is in their airspace, it's that Wanda is moving into enemy occupied terrain which is, by definition, an attack. The Archons are not attacking Wanda, they are defending against Wanda's attack.
Side Note: the Archons, since they do not attack her automatically, must be Commanders at minimum, which since they can cast only makes sense. All casters are Commanders and can lead stacks.
The exceptional thing going on here is that Wanda can move into enemy occupied territory during Ansom's turn. She is moving to reinforce the Outer Wall, so maybe that's permitted, but moving through Airspace is the odd part. It is unnecessary. Ansom is attacking the Outer Wall with melee (not ranged, which might have put him in Airspace), even though he is on the carpet, so he can be attacked from Outer Wall. Wanda is in Tower, and can move freely through the Garrison to Courtyard, and from there to Outer Wall. Move cost remains 0, since all are part of City. There might be a modifier for height, if Wanda attacks down onto Ansom from Airspace, but that's the only mechanical thing I can think of to require Wanda to move through Airspace.
I think Parson may have wanted to test Charlie, and that's why he chose the airspace route. If he can't rely on Charlie to play the game, then he really has no hope whatsoever.
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2008-12-24, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
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Re: City hexes and Archons
So just sharing a hex/zone is a de facto attack? Fine by me, since it doesn't affect what I wrote, that a unit can attack other units so long as they're all in the same hex, regardless of whose turn it is.
I've speculated that the arkendish allows Charlie to command units from afar, acting as a commander. The simpler explanation is what you suggest; I present another possibility. I would also add that it is also possible that only some of the archons are commanders--I like to consider multiple possibilities.
It may be "enemy-occupied territory" [hyphen added by me], but it is still part of GK.
But time was of the essence: defending units don't require "move," but it still takes time, time that Ansom was buying the RCC siege units that had already started to make dents into the wall. Plus, Wanda may have wanted to capitalize on their flight, on what may have been a sneak or diving attack, perhaps something similar to the tactics/attack used by Jillian when attacking the twoll and three uncroaked earlier in the story.
That does not seem unreasonable, but remember that Charlie only agreed to refrain from attacking GK that one day. Parson knows that he can only, at best, trust Charlie to act in his self-interest--with the added caveat that Parson is not going to assume that Charlie's agenda is necessarily as simple as he makes it out to be.Last edited by DevilDan; 2008-12-24 at 02:32 PM.
Quo vadis?
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2008-12-26, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007