OOTS #615 - The Discussion Thread

[nybbler]

Celia is in a grapple. Haley has Improved Precise Shot.

"In addition, when you shoot or throw ranged weapons at a grappling opponent, you automatically strike at the opponent you have chosen. "

Hmm.

[Scutatus]

Ahhh, the classic frostmaiden-bowazon-build. That brings back memories. Stupid Duriel...

Diablo fan? :)

[spectralphoenix]

What I'm worried about here aren't the mint puns or the fact that winged hippie can't stay ungrappled for 10 minutes [although Roy's dead ]; it's the fact that Bozzman has successfully dodged 2 Haley's attacks. Now, those were her first 2 strikes, with greatest To-Hit bonus, right? See now why I'm starting to get worried?

If they were (and I don't see how you got that,) that also means she hit with her third attack, which would have the lowest attack bonus. Besides the sample size is small enough that without knowing what she rolled, his AC could be anything.

In all probability, though, his AC isn't that great. He's probably wearing light armor and he ditched his shield. If Haley can keep moving and stay out of his reach, she's got a decent chance. As long as she can move 30 feet away from him each round and use the terrain to avoid being charged, Bozzak's options are limited while she can keep using Manyshot.

[spectralphoenix]

Celia is in a grapple. Haley has Improved Precise Shot.

"In addition, when you shoot or throw ranged weapons at a grappling opponent, you automatically strike at the opponent you have chosen. "

Hmm.

And everyone in a grapple loses their DEX bonus against everyone outside the grapple. Sneak attack city!

[Puppys&Rainbows]

I was hoping she would dual wield crossbows then drop them for her new bow, but I guess it isn't as cool in 2D.

[Quorothorn]

I wondered that too, since it's pretty clear from the fact that I've lost track of the multiplier on his multi-cross that he's Chaotic. A couple of possibilities occurred to me, though: 1) Trophy. He took it off some Lawful sucker that he sniped. 2) He went up against other Chaotics often enough that he considered the +2d6 damage worth the negative level.

It also occurs to me that going against a thieves' guild, Haley might find that a worthwhile tradeoff, too.

Those're my only guesses, too. An interesting touch, even if we never find out more.

Though I probably would've taken the icy burst, too. (Actually, my current Rogue PC, in Haley's situation, would've just pulled one of his many, many backup weapons and gone to town on Crystal. If she's attacking my weapons while I'm attacking her, I bet she runs out of hit points before I run out of concealed weapons. Especially since one of them is adamantine.)

Well, that's a problem the Order seem to have: do any of them have even one back-up weapon? You'd think they'd all have at least a dagger at their side. I would expect a high-level fighter to be kitted out with a variety of weapons of different materials and types for differing situations, not simply one steel sword.

[MageLeif]

Now that Haley has something much better than a +3 bow, she can easily defeat Crystal with her +4 dagger.

[Lowkey]

Well, that's a problem the Order seem to have: do any of them have even one back-up weapon? You'd think they'd all have at least a dagger at their side. I would expect a high-level fighter to be kitted out with a variety of weapons of different materials and types for differing situations, not simply one steel sword.

Belkar has loads of daggers. Amazing that the guy with the lowest WIS and a correspondingly low INT is also the only guy to pack extra stuff.

[Drager]

I just don't get the mint refereces or the title, what am I missing?

I guess its realted to the other thing I don't get what is the funyn spelling and styling of archery about?

[Vaarsuvius4181]

im not a big DandD guy(besides neverwinter nights and dragonlance) so can someone explain why the first arrow froze and the next two just killed?

[hamishspence]

Critical hits- extra cold damage- freezing is visual shorthand for it?

[Vaarsuvius4181]

i suppose that makes sense

[Araltaln]

Foreshadowing!

Hey! Check this out. I wonder if Haley's new haircut is symbolic of a quick wrap up of sideplots and moving forward with the dramatic main line?

Nah. According to her, she last cut her hair that short "the first time I decided I didn't want to dye it anymore." As it happens, we've actually seen when this was, way back in #93.

So, appropriately enough, that part of Haley's brain ("... that is sick of all this emo crap and wants to get back to comedy."), despite being new, was represented by Haley's previous post-emo phase.

It's still amusing to go back and see now, though, thanks

[Twilight Jack]

Regarding whether Haley has Improved Precise Shot, and is thus 15th-level:

When evaluating the seeking bow, she comments that she has a feat which already does "most of that." Improved Precise Shot does more than a weapon with the seeking ability. I think there may be a different feat to which she is referring.

Now in the interests of fairness, seeking does do one thing that Improved Precise Shot doesn't, namely it negates miss chance for total concealment, provided that the arrow is aimed at the right square. So, from that standpoint, her statement that she's a feat that does "most of" what seeking does could apply to Improved Precise Shot. I'm just not quite ready to buy Haley as 15th level.

Although . . .

[Fighteer]

Love the "Icy Burst" bow gag, it's one of the funnier rules-related jokes that I've seen in a while. I'm glad to know that the Giant is not running out.

As for Bozzok, he's wearing light armor and has almost certainly got a decent Dex bonus to go along with that, plus assorted AC boosting magic items (unless he totally sucks as a thief). It's not surprising that Haley has a difficult time hitting him. She does have Point Blank Shot, though, and he ditched his shield in order to be able to Power Attack, so the attack roll is well within her capabilities.

The battle itself should be interesting. Haley is focused on Dex and has good mental stats, while Bozzok seems to have bonuses or at least no penalties across all of his stats (High Str for Power Attack; Dex because, well, rogue; Con bonus as a half-orc; decent Int because he talks well and runs a thieves' guild; decent Wis because low Sense Motive = dead guild master; and decent Cha for leadership). Bozzok has a higher base attack bonus, is stronger in melee, and should have more hit points; Haley has the advantage of range and of heavy specialization with her chosen weapon. Neither has a flanking advantage, and Bozzok should be immune to Haley's Sneak Attacks anyway.

Bozzok's best option is to rely on his AC and higher hit points to back Haley into a corner, or pull off another surprise flank from one of his minions. Haley has to remain mobile, watch her back, and not give him a chance to connect with a Power Attack. And I would think that he'd absolutely use Celia-as-hostage against her if he started losing.

The wild card is, as always, Belkar. A full BAB ranger/barbarian should annihilate a rogue/assassin (Crystal) in direct melee without the opportunity to flank. With that handled, he'd be free to break out Celia or assist Haley, whichever ends up being more useful. Of course, being Belkar, I'm sure that he'll come up with a unique way to save the day while simultaneously screwing something up.

Spoiler

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Here's a scary thought. Let's say he defeats Crystal but lets her live, Bond girl style (kiss 'em and leave 'em). He goes and rescues Haley and/or Celia, but then she shows back up, gets personal, and performs a successful Death Attack.

[hamishspence]

she was 12-13th level at Battle of Azure city. Its been more than 6 months since then- resistance- lots of fighting with Tsusiko and others- wouldn't surprise me that much.

[Twilight Jack]

she was 12-13th level at Battle of Azure city. Its been more than 6 months since then- resistance- lots of fighting with Tsusiko and others- wouldn't surprise me that much.

Yeah, that's the thought that was running through my mind when I typed, "Although. . ."

Of course, that means very sad things for Roy when he gets resurrected. Unless Haley is the only one to gain 2 levels since the battle (entirely possible, I suppose, since she's been doing more fighting than anyone else), that puts Roy 3 full levels behind the rest of the Order.

Everyone in the Order was 12th-13th during the battle, right? Durkon and V were definitely at least 13th. Roy's the leader, so it makes little sense for him to have been any lower than them.

Belkar's MoJ made levelling up a bit more difficult for him in the months after the battle, so it's not unlikely that he's only 13th or 14th now. What about Elan? Durkon? V? They've all been busy since the Battle of Azure City as well.

Does the Giant have good comedy prepared for Roy coming back to life as a 12th level character leading a party who is all 2-3 levels higher than him?

It's only the levelled down Roy that has kept me from accepting a well-levelled up Order since the Battle.

[nybbler]

I just don't get the mint refereces or the title, what am I missing?

LifeSavers candy. With flavors like Pep-O-Mint, Wint-O-Green, etc.

[hamishspence]

its possible Roy was up to 1 level ahead of rest of order. Since they will need true ressurrection to bring him back (long time dead) he won't lose a level.

[Twilight Jack]

its possible Roy was up to 1 level ahead of rest of order. Since they will need true ressurrection to bring him back (long time dead) he won't lose a level.

Normal resurrection, a 7th level spell that Durkon can cast, allows for the recipient to be dead quite a long time. It will be more than sufficient to get Roy up and kicking again.

But it comes with level loss. Unless the Giant comes up with a cunning plot twist to explain a true resurrection when the standard variety is cheaper and easily available once Durkon shows up, I don't think Roy is crossing back over without dropping a level.

Although I suppose it is possible that he was already 14th level at the time of his death.

[The_Firenail]

It was okay, but not very contributing to the plot.
Anyway, those crossbows looked kinda small, and I thought that was because of the distance.

That haircut is growing on me. :|

[hamishspence]

If you take the view that Roy's body was destroyed when golem was animated, and is still destroyed when golem is dead, they do need True Ressurrection.

Interestingly a pile of dust from Disintegrate can be Ressurected. Which is probably why "Gust of Wind"

[Fighteer]

Anyway, those crossbows looked kinda small, and I thought that was because of the distance.

They are probably hand crossbows, which I believe rogues get proficiency in by default, as opposed to light or heavy crossbows. I could be mistaken; it's been a long time since I've played and I'm AFB at the moment. Hand crossbows are much easier to load than the heavier types and can be wielded in a single hand (hence the name).

If you take the view that Roy's body was destroyed when golem was animated, and is still destroyed when golem is dead, they do need True Ressurrection.

The real issue isn't which version of the spell they would need, but which version they have available. Durkon is almost certainly not 17th level yet and therefore can't cast true resurrection. While true resurrection can indeed raise Roy while his body is being animated as a golem, regular resurrection cannot. The golem would have to be destroyed first.

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The only plausible way out of this that doesn't result in a lost level for Roy would be if Haley manages to turn the tables on Bozzok sufficiently to actually take over leadership of the Greysky City Thieves' Guild. It wouldn't have to be permanent, just long enough to get a higher level cleric in the Temple of Loki to do the job.

[David Argall]

Now that Haley has something much better than a +3 bow, she can easily defeat Crystal with her +4 dagger.

Haley merely has a bow that is harder to destroy. In combat, she is still dead meat vs Crystal, to say nothing of Bozzak. Your archer is a very useful member of the party, softens the enemy up before they can close, etc, but he [or she for Haley] dies fast once the melee people reach them.

[hamishspence]

yes, they are proficient with these exotic weapons. Drow are also, but most other classes have to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

[Kilbia]

1. Sabine (remember Sabine?) likes to use what? Fire? We all know that with fire and ice, a dream can't come true...

Err. Sorry.

Don't be sorry - that was awesome. Even if I do have that stuck in my head now. =)

[SirEdward]

1. Sabine (remember Sabine?) likes to use what? Fire? We all know that with fire and ice, a dream can't come true...

Succubus:
...
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/cold iron or good,
darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance
to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 18, telepathy
100 ft., tongues

Please notice that the bow is not good aligned for the sake of damage reduction, Haley still doesn't know whether to use silver or cold iron, and she needs to roll more than 10 damage in her 2D10 damage roll to cause any cold damage at all to Sabine.

Please note that most monsters with elemental resistances are still affected normally by sonic attacks, though it is rather poor for sneaking around unnoticed.

[shakes019]

I dun see why <@.@> I'm a huge anime/manga geek and thought it was *hilarious* lol

"CHARGING GRAPPLE ATTACK!!"

Its especially funny given people yelling out spells/sneak attacks <,< So its really just poor fighters who don't get to shout at people!

Except Roy gets to do it too.

[Fighteer]

Please notice that the bow is not good aligned for the sake of damage reduction, Haley still doesn't know whether to use silver or cold iron, and she needs to roll more than 10 damage in her 2D10 damage roll to cause any cold damage at all to Sabine.

You'd also have to add the 1d6 cold damage from the basic frost property of the weapon itself. 1d6+2d10 cold gives a pretty decent shot at blowing through Sabine's resistance.

Please note that most monsters with elemental resistances are still affected normally by sonic attacks, though it is rather poor for sneaking around unnoticed.

So is yelling, "Sneak Attack, B***H!"... or so one would think. The logic of D&D tends to quietly ignore the implied consequences of the use of various types of elemental magic from a physics standpoint. For example, the radiant heat from a fireball should cook things well outside of the blast itself, and a sonic attack loud enough to kill living creatures should shatter glass and cause various other forms of property damage hundreds of yards away. So it's entirely consistent that a sonic energy property of a weapon doesn't cause particularly more radiant noise than any other special property, however illogical that may be.

[factotum]

Belkar's MoJ made levelling up a bit more difficult for him in the months after the battle, so it's not unlikely that he's only 13th or 14th now.

He levelled up once (and almost certainly only once, given his dialogue) during that period, in strip #515. A Wight then level drained him again, but it's always possible he made his saving throw and lost the negative level the next day.