OOTS #615 - The Discussion Thread

[Warren Dew]

Yes, but how would they phrase that?

Would they talk about, "The good of all slaad," and have books of formalized rules? Or would they just say, "Don't piss me off or I'll beat you up"?

If they had a minion like Haley, who might be more open to "good of all" arguments, they'd probably use that argument with that minion.

We shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that just because Bozzok says something, he necessarily actually believes it.

[hamishspence]

Bozzok has a track record of polite to people's faces, vicious when they have gone. In Origin of PCs he lets Haley go, and she finds out he usually sends assassins, from Hank.

[Simanos]

In a Lawful society, people can generally be expected to follow the rules and structures merely because they exist. Disobedience tends to take the form of attempting to work within the system to overturn bad laws. Enforcement tends to be strict and by the book. There is usually a clearly defined process for selecting leaders and that process may or may not have anything to do with the quality of the person chosen. The social hierarchy is clearly established and there is a formal system for moving up or down the ladder, if it's possible at all. Justice is meted out by courts and appointed officials.

In a Chaotic society, people follow the rules when they agree with them or when the consequences for disobedience aren't worth the potential gain, and feel free to disregard them otherwise. Enforcement can be brutal (in a Chaotic Evil society), capricious (in a Chaotic Neutral society), or based on the greatest good (in a Chaotic Good society), but is seldom highly regimented. Prisons, if they exist, are for the worst offenders; most punishments are fast and direct. Leadership tends to fall to the most effective or at least the most popular individual, and is seldom long-term unless it's hereditary, in which case there's usually a council that does whatever the hell it wants most of the time. The social hierarchy is fluid and mobility is based on merit, power, charisma, or whatever the society values.

Neutrals are of course somewhere inbetween, with formal rules but a less structured system for dealing with them.

In short, a Chaotic society does not equal an anarchy. Well, it may at times, but that's as much an extreme as the Lawful Stupid archetype. Even Chaotic individuals recognize that some structures are needed to make a society work, and those who reject structure entirely usually wander off to do their own thing with little fanfare.

While it's true that a Thieves' Guild could in theory be a Lawful organization, it's extremely rare and one would expect severe clashes within such a group between the highly regimented structure and the individualism of its members. Similarly, there's nothing saying that a Chaotic guild can't have strong, effective leadership and well-enforced rules as long as its members agree that it's in their best interest or are too cowed to rebel.

If Bozzok's guild had formal ranks, a military-like chain of command, a Constitution, a fee/rate structure, a court/appeal system, uniforms, etc., then I might suspect it of being Lawful. However, I've seen nothing in the comic to suggest this, and everything to suggest that Bozzok leads by virtue of competence and by eliminating anyone who's a serious rival. These are fundamentally Chaotic principles, regardless of his alignment, which may indeed be Neutral or even Lawful.

Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
/Monty Python

[Solara]

I don't see it as inconsistency so much as growth. She used to bitch about Haley killing people, now she's starting to accept that as long as she herself doesn't kill people, her principles are intact. Besides, Haley just told her she was going to kill people, and then she does...why should she be shocked?

I don't have time to read all nine pages so maybe this was already brought up, but besides the fact that Celia might be learning to be at least a little practical in life and death situations, I wondered if there wasn't a meta-joke in there something about players who do this same thing, RP a 'pacifist' character who abhors violence but for some reason cheerfully tags along with a bunch of more typical adventurers and just whistling and looking the other way whenever the slaughter starts.

At least Celia is in this situation because events forced it upon her, that alone makes it much more realistic than the so-called peaceful characters voluntarily seeking this sort of thing out for xp and shines...

[RosesOnConcrete]

*blah blah alignment babble blah blah number of Guildies blah blah BLAH*

Man, I kinda hate how every "OOTS #new - The Discussion Thread" topic turns into a debate on rules and logic. Funny jokes > making sense, guys.

Also: DAMMIT CELIA *headdesk*

Some killer lines in this one, Giant.

[Rhuna_Coppermane]

*blah blah alignment babble blah blah number of Guildies blah blah BLAH*

Man, I kinda hate how every "OOTS #new - The Discussion Thread" topic turns into a debate on rules and logic. Funny jokes > making sense, guys.

Also: DAMMIT CELIA *headdesk*

Some killer lines in this one, Giant.

Eh, that's just how you know the thread's past its sell-by date. If it were in the fridge, it would be blue, fuzzy and deliquescing. (Hey, do Cthulhian horrors pick up dinner at a deliquetessen?)

[Alwaysfeliz]

i just registered only to say that whole 'my last breath...is also my mintiest'...is the funniest thing comic line i've read since BW signed off from Calvin and Hobbes. kudos on a cracker of a line - i so hope Rich was chortling to himself as he wrote it....

[B.I.T.T.]

"My last breath is also my mintiest." Classic!

Good comic.