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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Revised Commoner (3.5)

    Okay. So a bookworm lvl 1 wizard can beat a lvl 1 commoner in armed combat. WEll that's just wrong. How can a bookworm defeat a hardened farmer in combat without spells- I calculated it. The wizard actually has a better chance.
    So something must be done.
    Here is the revised commoner.


    Hit Die:d6
    Commoner
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    {table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +0
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |

    2nd|
    +1
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    +0
    |

    3rd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |

    4th|
    +3
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +1
    |

    5th|
    +3
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +2
    |

    6th|
    +4
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |

    7th|
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |

    8th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +2
    |

    9th|
    +6/+1
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |

    10th|
    +7/+2
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |

    11th|
    +8/+3
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +3
    |

    12th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |

    13th|
    +9/+4
    |
    +8
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |

    14th|
    +10/+5
    |
    +9
    |
    +4
    |
    +4
    |

    15th|
    +11/+6/+1
    |
    +9
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |

    16th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |

    17th|
    +12/+7/+2
    |
    +10
    |
    +5
    |
    +5
    |

    18th|
    +13/+8/+3
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |

    19th|
    +14/+9/+4
    |
    +11
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |

    20th|
    +15/+10/+5
    |
    +12
    |
    +6
    |
    +6
    |[/table]

    Class Skills
    Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str) and Use Rope (Dex)
    Skill point at first level (2+ Int Mod) x4
    Skill points per level: 2+ Int Mod

    Class Features

    Weapon And Armor Proficiency
    A commoner is proficient with all simple weapons.


    So here's what I think the commoner should be. It also represents a hardened farmer which shouldn't be a total pushover.
    Last edited by Frog Dragon; 2008-12-14 at 02:38 AM.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    Actually, wouldn't a d8 hit die be more fitting? d8 is the standard Hit Points for humanoids.

    I'm pretty sure the core commoner was just designed to be the worst at everything.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    Well maybe. I think I'll fix it to that. Yeah you can use the core commoner for someone who's never done anything other that sit somewhere. Because the core commoner is just so bad it makes no sense for anyone to be that bad.
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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    And...how does a wizard beat a commoner in armed combat at first level without spells? Both have 4+con mod hp, +0 BAB. The commoner could just take morningstar for his weapon proficiency, which would deal more damage than any melee wizard weapons. It can't be the fact that wizards have better will saves, because a 1st level commoner doesn't have any abilities which require a will save, and neither does a 1st level wizard (not counting spells). Is it the familiar?
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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    Default humanoids HD TEND to be for hunter-gather type cultures more than agrarian I should think... and or things tougher than humans naturally... drop it back to d6?
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    Ok. I stand Corrected. Because I meant armed combat with absolutely no help
    Still it's too close a call and it's just wrong cuz the wizard is most likely a bookworm so there should be virtually no chance for him to beat the peasant without spells or familiar.
    Last edited by Frog Dragon; 2008-12-13 at 04:09 PM.
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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    So it comes down to who hits first, just like 1st levels fights in the grand old days of OD&D. I fail to see a problem here.

    Commoner = racial HD, non-elite stat array, maybe one Good save bonus, an agricultural implement (Simple Weapon Proficiency), a stoneware bottle of rotgut, and a daft accent.
    Giving commoners class levels is just buying into some of the stoopider parts of 3.X.

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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    I don't think they should have the increased BAB.

    Doesn't Base Attack Represent knowledge of Combat? Well, look at your humble farmer. Unless he lives in a rough area, or has a nasty temper and Bar-fights everyone he meets, he's not going to know much about combat. And those that DO bar-fight everybody are going to be a higher level, and thus more powerful.

    I did spot a flaw in the commoner: A man who just became a local blacksmith wouldn't know as much as a blacksmith who has been blacksmithing all his life, but he would have the same skill mod, because neither of them have seen enough combat to learn how to make a weapon...
    Because apparently killing a couple of Orcs teaches you how to Swim, grow crops, know stuff, and even play your fiddle for a crowd.
    Last edited by Elder Brain; 2008-12-13 at 05:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    I agree that the BAB is too high, but are d8s really humanoid hit die? D4s are way to low for a farmer then. Definitely d8s.
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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Brain View Post
    I don't think they should have the increased BAB.

    Doesn't Base Attack Represent knowledge of Combat? Well, look at your humble farmer. Unless he lives in a rough area, or has a nasty temper and Bar-fights everyone he meets, he's not going to know much about combat. And those that DO bar-fight everybody are going to be a higher level, and thus more powerful.
    Why shouldn't the average commoner know how to fight a bit? Throwing rocks at crows that try to eat your corn, fending off wolves that come after your flock, wrestling cattle to be branded, hunting to supplement your protein supply if you have no domestic animals, and settling arguments with your relatives or neighbors are all combat encounters that an average commoner would face regularly.
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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by SurlySeraph View Post
    Why shouldn't the average commoner know how to fight a bit? Throwing rocks at crows that try to eat your corn, fending off wolves that come after your flock, wrestling cattle to be branded, hunting to supplement your protein supply if you have no domestic animals, and settling arguments with your relatives or neighbors are all combat encounters that an average commoner would face regularly.
    This, um, is exactly why BAB scales with level, even if it's Poor BAB.

    I would say the Commoner should definitely have Poor BAB. And I can't see why he'd have better Hit Dice than a Rogue or Bard. (Better than a Wizard, yes, I can understand that.) I vote d6 hit dice. Of course, by my standards, the Sorcerer having only d4 makes no sense, either. Oh well.

    What the commoner really should have is more than 2 skill points/level.

    The only reason a L1 Commoner vs a L1 Wizard without spells or familiar should win is because he should have higher Str/Con stats than the Wizard. Unfortunately it's not going to work out that way since the Wizard's spellcasting is SAD and Con is usually his 2nd-best stat. Well, I guess the Strength part still helps.

    An "optimized Commoner" farmer, I would think, would have:
    13 WIS, 12 CON, 11 STR, 10 CHA, 9 DEX, 8 INT.

    (Wis because it affects his most important everyday checks: Survival and Profession (farmer).)
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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    One thing people are forgetting is that NPC's don't level up by killing stuff. They level up by defeating other enemies appropriate to their skills, i.e. bringing in a good harvest gains a farmer experience.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    I disagree with the more than 2 skill points per level thingy. They are untrained people. They don't know much. And the BaB? I have always had the picture that poor BaB is for someone who has absolutely no combat experience. And as SurlySeraph demonstrated commoners should have some. Though I see the reasoning with d6 HD. I think I'll use it after all.
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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elder Brain View Post
    I don't think they should have the increased BAB.

    Doesn't Base Attack Represent knowledge of Combat? Well, look at your humble farmer. Unless he lives in a rough area, or has a nasty temper and Bar-fights everyone he meets, he's not going to know much about combat. And those that DO bar-fight everybody are going to be a higher level, and thus more powerful.

    I did spot a flaw in the commoner: A man who just became a local blacksmith wouldn't know as much as a blacksmith who has been blacksmithing all his life, but he would have the same skill mod, because neither of them have seen enough combat to learn how to make a weapon...
    Because apparently killing a couple of Orcs teaches you how to Swim, grow crops, know stuff, and even play your fiddle for a crowd.
    Fax totally fixed that problem with his Commoner Job classes. It's really easy and includes everything from Sailor to Innkeeper (a must for any advanture!)

    EDIT: Found it! Linkage!
    Last edited by Lappy9000; 2008-12-14 at 02:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Frog Dragon View Post
    Okay. So a bookworm lvl 1 wizard can beat a lvl 1 commoner in armed combat. WEll that's just wrong. How can a bookworm defeat a hardened farmer in combat without spells- I calculated it. The wizard actually has a better chance.
    So something must be done.

    But does that assume that all commoners are farmers? Commoner covers all "normal" people in society. So for example I assume an older wizard can take on a young/teenage female waitress, or the old beggar on the streets, or the shoe polisher on the corner.


    Ultimate NPCs by Mongoose Publishing is incredible when it comes to Commoners (with numerous variations) and other NPC classes, as well as NPCs and common folk all around. I highly suggest looking it up.

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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lappy9000 View Post
    I'm pretty sure the core commoner was just designed to be the worst at everything.
    Agreed. This is a "hardened-farmer" class;call it something similar.
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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    Rogues - regularly train to kill people as swiftly and silently as possible

    Commoners - throw rocks at crows

    Why would they have the same BAB again?

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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Agreed. This is a "hardened-farmer" class;call it something similar.
    Not at all: there is already a class for that: The EXPERT.
    As said above: the commoner covers all normal people. Funnily enough this is most likely you or me. Or at least me. Maybe you are an Exp. I really couldn't care less.

    That said, I do think all d4HD classes should be upgraded to d6, and the bard should be bumped to d8, but that is not overly appropriate for this thread.

    What the commoner really should have is more than 2 skill points/level.
    I think there is also this idea that to be competent in a skill you have to have max ranks in it. This is wrong. 1 rank in a skill represents massive amounts of training and knowledge compared to 0, and most of the people in the game world should not have maxed ranks except for the occasional expert.

    Having 2 skill points+int mod/lv is pretty decent. It means that at first level you have 8 skill points.
    Precisely because most people then were comparatively well rounded compared to now, we would see less people with maxed out ranks, and more with one or two ranks in most skills.

    One thing people are forgetting is that NPC's don't level up by killing stuff. They level up by defeating other enemies appropriate to their skills, i.e. bringing in a good harvest gains a farmer experience.
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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    I agree that the commoner is underpowered if we want to be realistic...
    Originally Posted by Frog Dragon
    Okay. So a bookworm lvl 1 wizard can beat a lvl 1 commoner in armed combat. WEll that's just wrong. How can a bookworm defeat a hardened farmer in combat without spells- I calculated it. The wizard actually has a better chance.
    So something must be done.
    However I have to be the Devil's advocate and remind everyone that this is a fantasy game and... the PCs or NPCs with PC classes are supposed to be hands down better than the Commoners. The 1st. level wizard can be killed by the 1st. level commoner if the wiz can't use spells... but it should be a difficult match. Because the Wizard (even one who is a bookworm) is more intelligent (potentially way more intelligent) than the average commoner. And I must note that most of his other scores will more than likely be better as well.
    However if you want the heroes to come from humble beginnings and stand as examples that anyone can become heroes in their own right, then I say improve the commoner.
    However if you believe (As I do) that heroes are better ( maybe not alignment wise ) but blessed by some higher power... our 4d6 rolling and the fact that [I]we[I] controll them. Then I say use the traditional commoner and stop attacking and/or provoking the decent farming folk of your DnD world.

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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    It seems this topic comes up every now and then.

    I thought Chronos did a good job coming up with the Adventuring Commoner class, right here...

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98922
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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by AzazelSephiroth View Post
    However if you believe (As I do) that heroes are better ( maybe not alignment wise ) but blessed by some higher power... our 4d6 rolling and the fact that [I]we[I] controll them. Then I say use the traditional commoner and stop attacking and/or provoking the decent farming folk of your DnD world.
    No I don't actually. I've been rolling up a d20 variant. Actually put down some mechanics too and stats there will be fixed amount of points gained during level ups. Your starting stats will probably like 14, 12, 10, 8, 10, 8
    Then you gain a +1 at almost every level. Will post it after it's developed enough to really analyze. Anyway, the point is that I believe that in a D&D universe most people CAN become adventurers. Most just don't want to becasuse mortality rate for level 1 adventurers is high. But I think it's just some training or some studying and the commoner can go out to adventure.
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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    You should also give them Prof in Scythes and Flails and all axes, seeing how these where tools before they were weapons.

    I came up with a farmer class that got bonuses when fighting in land used for agriculter because he would know all about the terrain. They also got animal and plant based stuff and had natural armor and lesser negetive effects for ageing. It was a kinda tribute to my 80+ year old popo who still works his fig orchard and probably will on the day he dies.
    Last edited by Stormthorn; 2009-05-29 at 12:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    If you want nearly anybody to be able to become an adventurer, why would they continue as a Commoner, of all things? Wouldn't it make more sense to go into a class better suited to that life-style, i.e. a PC class? NPC classes aren't designed with being balanced with the PCs, they're for your bit characters and common people, not your important people and BBEGs, who have PC class levels, too. Sure, you could have a character rise from such gentle beginnings as being a farm hand but, if he's seriously considering an adventuring career, he isn't still practicing his farming skills, he's gone on to skills more likely to let him live through an encounter and maybe triumph. If he comes off as weak compared to his fellow PCs, that's what the retraining rules from the PHB2 are for, to show that your hard work has not gone unwasted at this point.

    To put this retrospective, if you put enough levels into any class, you'll eventually get powerful enough to deal with the difficulties of your life, which is through experience and gaining levels. Sure, everybody starts off at level 1 but, as you get older and get used to doing what you do everyday, you naturally improve at it, whether its tending your fields or chasing down neighborhood never-do-wells who are trying to make off with your cabbages and sheep.

    To put a final sidenote on this, a while ago I scaled the commoner into epic levels and built a 30th level commoner based on that and I think he came out rather well. Would he be taking on other epic PCs? Hell no, he doesn't have the skills or abilities to deal with them, though he can certainly work a field like nobody else or outfit a platoon's horses with shoes in a single day of work. I'm not sure what his CR really comes out to but I think, at best, he's CR 15, though more likely he's closer to 12. I may post him at a later date, though I think I screwed up some of his item purchases, given the price difference between epic and non-epic items.

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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    I just gave Commoners levels as Experts (beyond 1st level, where their first level was Commoner), who only gain a HD every 4 levels.

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    Default Re: Revised Commoner (3.5)

    Quote Originally Posted by But Not Tonight View Post
    Not at all: there is already a class for that: The EXPERT.
    An expert is good with skills. He's, like, an EXPERT.
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