[d20r, Feats] Investing Feats

[Knave]

I wouldn't really like that... it'd mean that Rogues for example could be proficient with more fighting techniques than fighters. One of the good things about prowess is that it is unrelated to your skill points, so "dumb" classes benefit from it just as well (or considering that they gain prowess faster, more).

On a second thought it does have merit if you "group" the skills, I guess... If there were only 2-3 categories (athletic-acrobatic-Bluff/intimidate), then even fighters could afford it.

[Fax Celestis]

No, Prowess is remaining as it is. I'll be messing with the actual mechanics to see about how I can make sure your first couple leevels don't result in Prowess oversaturation.

[DragoonWraith]

Why is Improved Critical nerfed? I was hoping to see some improvement in it, but now you have to invest Prowess just to get back where it is in 3.5, and you still can't improve past that. Critical-focused builds are a weak choice in regular 3.5, now it seems like it costs more to make that weak choice...

[Fax Celestis]

Why is Improved Critical nerfed? I was hoping to see some improvement in it, but now you have to invest Prowess just to get back where it is in 3.5, and you still can't improve past that. Critical-focused builds are a weak choice in regular 3.5, now it seems like it costs more to make that weak choice...

Notice the absence of the stacking clause for keen?

[DragoonWraith]

I almost went back and edited to ask if that's what you meant. The absence may not have mattered if Keen still had that clause, but of course the possibility had crossed my mind that you had changed more than just that feat to balance that.

Well, I'm thrilled with that.

[Fax Celestis]

And, to beat anyone to the punch, Sean K. Reynolds makes a great argument for why it isn't broken.

[DragoonWraith]

I was going to link to that if you argued that it did need a nerf, actually...

[Eloel]

And, to beat anyone to the punch, Sean K. Reynolds makes a great argument for why it isn't broken.

My sarcasm-detectors are broken. If anyone has one working, is this supposed to be sarcastic?

[Fax Celestis]

My sarcasm-detectors are broken. If anyone has one working, is this supposed to be sarcastic?

Nope, it's not.

[tyckspoon]

Notice the absence of the stacking clause for keen?

Umm. Perhaps I'm just missing something, but doesn't the phrasing you still have there- "This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon-" invalidate stacking Keen regardless of whether or not it is specifically mentioned?

..that is, if you *meant* to allow Improved Critical to stack, it looks like you forgot to actually edit out the offending line.

[Fax Celestis]

Umm. Perhaps I'm just missing something, but doesn't the phrasing you still have there- "This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon-" invalidate stacking Keen regardless of whether or not it is specifically mentioned?

Whoops, left that in from a prior edit.

[Eloel]

Nope, it's not.

Power Attack smacks all over that argument, before peeing on it. Crits are worth more than 'increased base damage'

[Fax Celestis]

Power Attack smacks all over that argument, before peeing on it. Crits are worth more than 'increased base damage'

-_- Did you, uh, fail to notice the change to Power Attack too?

[Eloel]

-_- Did you, uh, fail to notice the change to Power Attack too?

I actually did, and I still do. I see no difference.

[Fax Celestis]

I actually did, and I still do. I see no difference.

Then you and I will continue to disagree until you can indicate in a mathematical fashion why exactly is broken, at which point I will venture to come up with a mechanical fix.

[dragoonsgone]

I am pretty sure I know the answer this but clarification is always better. Its my experience that any question you answer right off the bat, is a little less debate later on, especially in DnD.

Can you invest in a feat the level you get it? IE you get power attack at level 6 and immediately invest it up?
I assume you can.

Are you gonna add some metamagic feats? Or are they just for martial feats? I think they would be good candidates for this. As well as say spell focus. 10 proficiency for +1 DC or some such.

[Fax Celestis]

I am pretty sure I know the answer this but clarification is always better. Its my experience that any question you answer right off the bat, is a little less debate later on, especially in DnD.

Can you invest in a feat the level you get it? IE you get power attack at level 6 and immediately invest it up?
I assume you can.

Yes, but there are some limitations. You cannot invest more prowess into an [Investing] feat than your BAB+3. You cannot save prowess from level to level. Once spent, prowess cannot be altered.

Are you gonna add some metamagic feats? Or are they just for martial feats? I think they would be good candidates for this. As well as say spell focus. 10 proficiency for +1 DC or some such.

Prowess' intent is primarily for martial classes, though there will be some style feats that are primarily caster-centric.

[Fax Celestis]

STEALTH NINJA NON-EDIT OF MATERIAL NOT MADE YET: keen will add to crit multiplier; Improved Critical will add to threat range.

[Zaakar]

Power attack. You make no mention whatsoever about 2handed weapons, which I find odd as 2handed power attacking is pretty much the only way anybody goes these days. If normal power attack is at 1:1 and thru investment becomes 1:2, then is 2handed 1:3 or 1:4?

God, why does this feel like the leap attack debate all over again? (btw, how do you rule on that one, normal uninvested 2handed power attack leap attack? Now what if you invest in it??

I second this question. Our group was wondering about it (both of the questions actually ).

[Fax Celestis]

I second this question. Our group was wondering about it (both of the questions actually ).

2h power attack works the same way as 1h. I don't really see why there needs to be a difference.

[bogsnes]

Because you get more power out of holding a sword in both hands?

Try it... hit something with a stick as powerfully as you can first with one hand, and then with two... which did you hit hardest with?

[Fax Celestis]

Because you get more power out of holding a sword in both hands?

Try it... hit something with a stick as powerfully as you can first with one hand, and then with two... which did you hit hardest with?

Yes, yes, which is why 2h weapons get 1.5*Str mod damage rather than just Str mod. I don't really see why I need to include that into Power Attack, though.

[lesser_minion]

Yes, yes, which is why 2h weapons get 1.5*Str mod damage rather than just Str mod. I don't really see why I need to include that into Power Attack, though.

Seconded.

The only thing in the original feat to imply that it had anything to do with hitting things really hard was the name. It is not something which needs its fluff set in stone the way it was in 3.5.

When using the Leap Attack feat in d20r, you should delete the entire sentence "If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack." - it is intended as a reminder of the d20 multiplication convention (double something twice, and the end result is triple, not quadruple), not as a rule.

Bear in mind that that isn't an official ruling - because Fax intends to publish his work, he has to stick to OGL material, meaning that he can't go around making sure that all of the non-SRD stuff fits. To use non-SRD material, you will have to do at least a little work adapting it.

[Knaight]

Yes, yes, which is why 2h weapons get 1.5*Str mod damage rather than just Str mod. I don't really see why I need to include that into Power Attack, though.

I agree hugely. After all the mechanics work perfectly fine for aiming somewhere more vital, and thus being more likely to miss. And its not like two handed weapons help hugely with that, although there are exceptions here.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, yes, which is why 2h weapons get 1.5*Str mod damage rather than just Str mod. I don't really see why I need to include that into Power Attack, though.

Plus it helps to limit and mitigate UberCharge cheese, and makes other build types more viable.

[Magnor Criol]

Far Shot [Investing]
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot

Benefit: When you use a projectile weapon, such as a bow, its range increment increases by one-half (multiply by 1.5). When you use a thrown weapon, its range increment is doubled.

Investiture: For each eight points of prowess invested in this feat, your ranges multiply by another .5. For instance, if you have five points of prowess invested in this feat, your ranges for projectile weapons is multiplied by 2, and your thrown weapons are multiplied by 2.5.

Emphasis mine.

I think this is a typo; first you say eight points, but then it shouldn't do anything if you only have five points invested in it.

I don't know if I've mentioned it yet, but I love this investing concept. It makes even the low-level feats significant (or, potentially significant, rather) at high levels, and overall makes you think about your feats more. The whole system is at once both simpler and heartier. Good job, as usual.

[Arakune]

I like this system. Seens solid.

Can I steal borrow it later?

[deuxhero]

Personally for "scaling feats" I preferred the method used by Races of War (BAB or ranks in a skill).

[sidhe3141]

Just wondering, why is investing limited to combat feats? As it is, there are other scalable feats (like Alertness [gain effects an extra time per X prowess], Empower Spell [raise multiplier by .5 per X prowess], or Improved Turning [see Alertness]) that a noncombatant might focus on improving. For that matter, there are some feats (like Leadership [make leadership score dependent on investiture] or Power Attack [cap at some function of investiture]) that you might want to work on converting to use Prowess to bring their scaling in line with the new mechanic.

[Dienekes]

Just wondering, why is investing limited to combat feats? As it is, there are other scalable feats (like Alertness [gain effects an extra time per X prowess], Empower Spell [raise multiplier by .5 per X prowess], or Improved Turning [see Alertness]) that a noncombatant might focus on improving. For that matter, there are some feats (like Leadership [make leadership score dependent on investiture] or Power Attack [cap at some function of investiture]) that you might want to work on converting to use Prowess to bring their scaling in line with the new mechanic.

I believe the whole purpose of the Investing Feats was to give the martial types a little something while the others still get there spells.

Not that it couldn't be done with non martial feats, just that it helps balance the system a tad.

Or maybe Fax just hasn't gotten around to doing the others yet.