Batman's Bane: The Joker

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hmm... nonmagically, what am I missing that the Bard has to give him potent social boosts the Psion doesn't get outside of just an inherently much higher Charisma? I guess easier access to skills, but I think the Telepath has all the important social ones and while he doesn't get a lot of skill points a level, his intelligence should make up for it pretty well.

High Charisma + high social skills. I thought that the Bardic Music was (Ex), but upon further examination, I realize it's (SU) and (SP).

Bard is even better than Telepath outside of AMF due to Facinate/Suggestion from Bardic Music without even touching his spell list. Plus the spell Glibness is a +30 to Bluff check, and can bypass effects which sense falsehood or compel truth.

I fail to see what a Telepath has over the Bard for his chosen profession. Bards can Dominate and Charm just as well, and probably do it more times per day. They also are better at gathering information on the PC's.

Granted, the Telepath is probably better for in-combat 'will save or be my slave', but that's kind of rude for a BBEG, because no PC wants their character to be taken away from him.

Is there something I may have missed?

[Gorbash]

My post. Last on the first page.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ok, everything else is more or less viable... But this? Bards now have access to lvl 8 Wizard spells?

Check the build again. Sublime Chord is a Bard PrC that grants access to up to 9th level Wiz/Sorc spells.

I'm playing a Batman wizard for quite some time now and when I do have the time to do the research I change... 3-4 spells I prepare, at the most (If I know we're facing a red Dragon, I'll prepare Mass Fire Shield and perhaps a few others, but why would I change other 20 spells, the encounter isn't gonna last that long anyway?). Out of 20+, because some spells are either mandatory or good in any given situation. So this:



Doesn't work either. Sure, I won't prepare Stinking Cloud if I see a bunch of undead and end up fighting... Babaus, but Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Slow, Flesh to Ice, Unluck, Zone of Peace, Web, Orbs work on virtually everything and these are spells which no sane Batman would ever want off his memorized spell list. And these are only spells up to lvl 5.

I was thinking more along the lines of seeing a bunch of clerics/monks, so he prepares with a bunch of things like Enervation (which is just a damn handy spell regardless), only to find himself facing Wights... which are immune to... everything you just listed (well, 50% on the Orbs).

So, in reality, you'll manage to fool the Wizard to waste some of his spells, but even without those he'll be more than a match. God forbid he spends a couple of rounds buffing (under Greater/Superior Invisibility, of course) and you find yourself facing a polymorphed, stoneskinned, heroismed, hasted, dragonskinned, hearth of earthed, mirror imaged, fearsome grappled, mage armored, shielded, karmic aura'd Huge, with AC well into 30s, angry wizard. Once again these are only spells up to 5th lvl. It get's worse, since that Bard of yours is at least 13th lvl (lvl 5th bard spells), meaning lvl 7 wizard spells, which I'm sure are awful.

oh no... all those buffs! Oh wait... Mordicane's Disjunction! What buffs?

Hell, even a Greater Dispel Magic works just fine to strip buffs quickly. And I also notice you failed to mention anything which can bypass Illusions... bad mistake.

I think you're still missing the point, after it was in the OP, and several people have pointed it out to you.

The point of Joker is not to defeat Batman... it is to challenge him. To quote the movie: "I don't want to kill you. I wouldn't know what I would do without you!". No one is saying a well equipped Batman Wizard could defeat Joker Bard... if Bats could ever FIND him. The problem is Joker won't be there. He'll be somewhere else, watching with Prying Eyes, and laughing his arse off.

The point is... The Joker build I've made can make Batman blow more spells and waste more slots in poorly prepared slots than just about anything else. By the end of the day vs Joker plots, Batman Wizard is actually OUT of spells, instead of having three-quarters of his spells left.

[Gorbash]

oh no... all those buffs! Oh wait... Mordicane's Disjunction! What buffs?

Once again... Bards can't cast that! No Mind Blanks, no Mordenkainen's Disjunctions, those are Wizard spells!

And I also notice you failed to mention anything which can bypass Illusions... bad mistake.

True Seeing? How will your Bard see through Superior Invisibility?

I was thinking more along the lines of seeing a bunch of clerics/monks, so he prepares with a bunch of things like Enervation (which is just a damn handy spell regardless), only to find himself facing Wights... which are immune to... everything you just listed (well, 50% on the Orbs).

First of all, no Batman would ever do such a thing and spend all his 4th lvl slots on one spell. He'd just prepare chained, twinned, empowered version which takes up 1 slot of a higher lvl.

Second of all, meet Corpse Candle (a standard Batman spell, also). Now your Wights aren't incorporeal and entirely vulnerable to a polymorphed/shapechanged monstrosity. Not even buffs are nessessary, just cast Body of War and that one spell made a wizard immune to most stuff anyways.

Even if a wizard doesn't prepare that spell, he should have a scroll of it. Or Alacritous Cogitation feat.

[Voyager_I]

It's a nice idea, with the fundamental flaw that the Joker is only alive because Batman won't kill him. I don't think there are many PC's who share that compunction, and especially not of the "I'm a paranoid high-level wizard" variety. You might be able to trick him or force the player to use his own brains rather than just scrying, but he's still going to kill you the first time you meet.

Imagine how well the Joker would work as a villain if Batman carried an assault rifle and used it without hesitation. That's basically how the average group of PC's will handle it.

[Tingel]

Once again... Bards can't cast that! No Mind Blanks, no Mordenkainen's Disjunctions, those are Wizard spells!

Sublime Chord. Please read Shneekey's posts more attentively.

[Gorbash]

Oh come on, that's 19th lvl, it's jut a notch below Epic. With Gates and all that shananigans, that's not even a challenge.

And I thought you people were serious.

[Tingel]

Nonetheless, your "Bards can't cast that!" exclamation was wrong. Sheekey explained the use of Sublime Chord in the very first post of this thread, and you should read closely what you attempt to dismantle.


As far as flavor is concerned I consider the Joker described herein excellent.

[Behold_the_Void]

Ok, everything else is more or less viable... But this? Bards now have access to lvl 8 Wizard spells?



I'm playing a Batman wizard for quite some time now and when I do have the time to do the research I change... 3-4 spells I prepare, at the most (If I know we're facing a red Dragon, I'll prepare Mass Fire Shield and perhaps a few others, but why would I change other 20 spells, the encounter isn't gonna last that long anyway?). Out of 20+, because some spells are either mandatory or good in any given situation. So this:



Doesn't work either. Sure, I won't prepare Stinking Cloud if I see a bunch of undead and end up fighting... Babaus, but Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Slow, Flesh to Ice, Unluck, Zone of Peace, Web, Orbs work on virtually everything and these are spells which no sane Batman would ever want off his memorized spell list. And these are only spells up to lvl 5.

So, in reality, you'll manage to fool the Wizard to waste some of his spells, but even without those he'll be more than a match. God forbid he spends a couple of rounds buffing (under Greater/Superior Invisibility, of course) and you find yourself facing a polymorphed, stoneskinned, heroismed, hasted, dragonskinned, hearth of earthed, mirror imaged, fearsome grappled, mage armored, shielded, karmic aura'd Huge, with AC well into 30s, angry wizard. Once again these are only spells up to 5th lvl. It get's worse, since that Bard of yours is at least 13th lvl (lvl 5th bard spells), meaning lvl 7 wizard spells, which I'm sure are awful.

He's a Sublime Cord, so he has 9th level casting.

Edit: Ninja'd!

High Charisma + high social skills. I thought that the Bardic Music was (Ex), but upon further examination, I realize it's (SU) and (SP).

Bard is even better than Telepath outside of AMF due to Facinate/Suggestion from Bardic Music without even touching his spell list. Plus the spell Glibness is a +30 to Bluff check, and can bypass effects which sense falsehood or compel truth.

I fail to see what a Telepath has over the Bard for his chosen profession. Bards can Dominate and Charm just as well, and probably do it more times per day. They also are better at gathering information on the PC's.

Granted, the Telepath is probably better for in-combat 'will save or be my slave', but that's kind of rude for a BBEG, because no PC wants their character to be taken away from him.

Is there something I may have missed?

Outside an AMF plenty of options, yes, but don't necessarily rule out the telepath. I will say the Bard is subtler, which is definitely a point in their favor, but don't doubt the lasting power of a Telepath. You can get your PP up and if you have to, you can throw out the big guns more often than needed.

Not saying Bard is bad for this, it's not in the least, but I still think the Telepath is viable for another take on the archetype, probably more in the brutal mind-ripping vein.

[Gorbash]

Yeah, but that means that Wizard he's trying to challenge is also at least 17th lvl, and not subject to the worries of the mortal world.

[Frosty]

The problem is the party can'tbe scry'ed on either once level 15 rolls along, so Jokr can't make plan that well either. Also, if you want Joker to be smart, then use Beguiler instead of Bard.

[Epic_Wizard]

You guys are also forgetting scrolls and specifically the spell Anticipate Teleportation, Greater (Spell Compendium pg 13) which gives the Joker plenty of time to do fun things like move an acid bath under where they players are going to land and then leave himself. They pop into a jokerless room, if he's smart a Dimentional Lock comes into effect, and they players then have to find their way out of a trapped warehouse full of goons that they probably aren't prepared for in order to escape.

(also again this isn't meant to be unwinnable just annoying as **** to such a twinked out character)

Then again personally I prefer creative use of blaster Wizards (re. Lightning Bolt the roof, Disintegrate the ground under the guy with spell resistance, and Summon an earth elemental in the ceiling to drop on the enemy)

[TempusCCK]

The idea here isn't to Scry on the Batman or his party, it's a tool for DM's to manipulate Batman characters by kidnapping important NPC's, threatening important infrastructure or items, and so on and so forth. THe point is not that Batman can't be scryed on, Joker doesn't care, the point is that Joker can't be scryed on, and therefore, cannot be predicted. Which throws Batmans main power for a loop.

Not to mention, with Sublime Chord, Joker has access to all kinds of fun little things like Dimensional Anchor and the high level spells, not to mention probably a seriously high UMD check.

Yes, Batman can kill the Joker, but this Joker knows that this Batman will kill him, and will act accordingly by not being around when things go down, he acts through proxy and doesn't give a rats hindquarters what happens to those proxies after they act.

[Thurbane]

The problem is the party can'tbe scry'ed on either once level 15 rolls along, so Jokr can't make plan that well either. Also, if you want Joker to be smart, then use Beguiler instead of Bard.

Yes, I was also wondering if Beguiler might be a better (or equally good) base for this Joker build?

[BardicDuelist]

One could probably stat out a pretty solid "Rogue's Gallery" with good analogies.

Beguiler and Telepath are good options. Factotum (possibly Factotum/Chameleon) could probably work. There are a couple of ToB options that should be explored, and CoDzilla's could find a way to be a challenge too. Yes, you need at least partial casters (or UMD) to be a decent threat to high level parties, but these types of characters could do it.

[hewhosaysfish]

One could probably stat out a pretty solid "Rogue's Gallery" with good analogies.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
We've already had "the Batman Wizard" and "does that makes Sorcerors Robin" and "should Superman be a Paladin" and no doubt several others I've forgotten.

What we need is a new meme! Every time you use a superhero analogy to describe a DnD class, God kills Catwoman. Won't someone, please, think of Catwoman!

[Aquillion]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
We've already had "the Batman Wizard" and "does that makes Sorcerors Robin" and "should Superman be a Paladin" and no doubt several others I've forgotten.

What we need is a new meme! Every time you use a superhero analogy to describe a DnD class, God kills Catwoman. Won't someone, please, think of Catwoman!

Someone needs to post a guide to Being Aquaman, focused on making and playing a character that is effective underwater and nowhere else.

[skeeter_dan]

Even if he weren't actively engaged already, a high-level wizard is pretty darn legendary. Which makes him - and by extension things that he cares about - subject to a Bardic Knowledge check.

Consider it for a moment. Joker always knows which buttons to push to get on Batman's nerves. How does he know? Not from smarts or research. A Bardic Knowledge check would be a pretty good mechanical stand-in for the kind of lunatic intuition that the Joker seems to have.

I like this a lot.

Does the Joker ever kidnap someone assuming Batman isn't going to show up?

And this I like even more. Of course he knows the Batman Wizard will scry on whomever he's kidnapped. That's why, when the Batman Wizard teleports in, he'll set off numerous overly-complicated death traps and mindbending illusions. The Joker Bard? He's not even necessarily there: he's set up a Magic Mouth or similar to taunt the Batman Wizard, laughing maniacally as the Batman Wizard, in attempting to save the kidnappee, sets off the very death trap that kills the kidnappee.

All in all, I really like this idea for a BBEG.

[TempusCCK]

Mm, just the concept makes me laugh.

Cheese v. Cheese: Diplomancer v. Meta-magic reducing, broken spell slinging wizard. Not that the Joker necessarily needs to be a Diplomancer, just that he could and it would be hilarious.

[Learnedguy]

I like this idea. I've always thought that the one place it hurts to be hit for for the Batman is, like for all other nerds, socially, and this Joker does that very thing.

How does he work in earlier levels though? What kind of items should one choose?

[Sholos]

I just like the fact that the only way someone has come up with for this to "not be a challenge" is to use a wizard build so full of cheese that almost any DM would ban it immediately.

[TempusCCK]

even then it's still a challenge, unless you go the "My wizard doesn't care about anything" route. In which case, that person has more problems than simply being a powergamer.

[Epic_Wizard]

even then it's still a challenge, unless you go the "My wizard doesn't care about anything" route. In which case, that person has more problems than simply being a powergamer.

This is one of those things that defeats the purpose of D&D. At this point you may as well have a miniature of your character on a shelf and that's it.

[Mushroom Ninja]

I didn't get time to say this before the last thread got the lock, but I really like the idea. It's very do-able and has great flavor.

[D_Lord]

Yeah, but that means that Wizard he's trying to challenge is also at least 17th lvl, and not subject to the worries of the mortal world.

Which is why you get reasons for him to be worryed about this. And lot of the time, the partys don't shield them selfs from scyring that much. But then again this is an anti-Batman BBEG. It's meant to give the powergamer player a hard time, possibly as payback for the DM having to wait hours for the player to choose his spells for the day.

[Aquillion]

I just like the fact that the only way someone has come up with for this to "not be a challenge" is to use a wizard build so full of cheese that almost any DM would ban it immediately.

To be fair, this build is already abusing both 9th level casting and Diplomacy, two of the most broken things in the game -- they're not abusing 9th level casting to quite the degree that, say, Cindy is, but it's not like this was ever a cheese-free battle to begin with.

[Kurald Galain]

To be fair, this build is already abusing both 9th level casting and Diplomacy, two of the most broken things in the game -- they're not abusing 9th level casting to quite the degree that, say, Cindy is, but it's not like this was ever a cheese-free battle to begin with.

In other words, the way to defeat a high-level arcane caster is by taking another high-level arcane caster

[Gorbash]

So Joker doesn't really have to be a Bard at all, since he's using a bard prestige class in order to get what Wizards are getting. Why just not make a Wizard and call him Joker? He certainly won't be using diplomacy against NPCs, it can't be used against PCs, so there's really no point in him being a Bard. Other than proving that some other class can challenge/defeat a wizard. By using Wizard's spells.

[its_all_ogre]

even then it's still a challenge, unless you go the "My wizard doesn't care about anything" route. In which case, that person has more problems than simply being a powergamer.

if one of my players ever created a character like this i'd let them.
then let them spectate on the game, after all their character doesn't care about anything, next session maybe they'll have a rational character made ready?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

So Joker doesn't really have to be a Bard at all, since he's using a bard prestige class in order to get what Wizards are getting. Why just not make a Wizard and call him Joker? He certainly won't be using diplomacy against NPCs, it can't be used against PCs, so there's really no point in him being a Bard. Other than proving that some other class can challenge/defeat a wizard. By using Wizard's spells.

Sorcerer's spells.

Yes, there is a difference.

And Ogre, I actually would have a lot of fun with a character who truly doesn't care about anything, and is only going along with the party because he's vaguely interested. Maybe an Artificer, who fluffs the "Hormunculus-in-a-hole" as a portal back to his rich family, who toss out gear for him on occasion. That rational enough?