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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbash View Post
    So Joker doesn't really have to be a Bard at all, since he's using a bard prestige class in order to get what Wizards are getting. Why just not make a Wizard and call him Joker? He certainly won't be using diplomacy against NPCs, it can't be used against PCs, so there's really no point in him being a Bard. Other than proving that some other class can challenge/defeat a wizard. By using Wizard's spells.
    My understanding is that we're talking primarily about using this guy as an NPC himself. So, no, while he won't explicitly use diplomacy much (the only time it makes sense to even roll for NPCs using diplomacy for an NPC is when they use it when the players are right there, or in some sort of opposed check related directly to responding to the PCs actions), it will factor majorly into the plot.

    And Diplomacy is a major threat, even to a Tippy wizard. In fact, it's one of the few non-magical things that is (although, granted, only because it can call down magical threats.) One of the basic rules of most settings is that no matter how powerful you are, there's always going to be someone bigger. All the Joker has to do is find those bigger people and make a good enough diplomacy check to make Batman out to be the bad guy, or to put Batman in a tight spot.

    Basically, the Joker's high diplomacy checks will be used to set up encounters capable of challenging Batman, while ensuring that his main opponent is still someone he can defeat.

    (Yes, you could just throw those high-level threats at Batman directly, but that's not as interesting as having them tricked and manipulated by the Joker.)

    Also, of course, he can still try and Bluff Batman... although that never works in the comics, PCs are not immune to bluff.

    Of course, there is one major problem with this build: The comic-book joker only gets that many chances to use Diplomacy and Bluff because Batman refuses to kill him. Unless you can give your PC wizard a reason to react the same way, he isn't likely to last nearly so long -- assuming the PCs even turn him over to the authorities instead of killing him once, they're never going to do it again after he talks his way out the first time. After that, it'll be on-the-spot execution every time. And they're probably not going to stand around long enough to listen to his bluffs, either.
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2008-12-19 at 11:09 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
    One of the basic rules of most settings is that no matter how powerful you are, there's always going to be someone bigger. All the Joker has to do is find those bigger people and make a good enough diplomacy check to make Batman out to be the bad guy, or to put Batman in a tight spot.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    The Joker is designed to be the GM's answer to the Batman Optimized Wizard.

    To this extend, he can be as little, or as much, optimized as is necessary to challenge the party.

    Do you have a Batman wizard abusing Titan Gate Chains? With a Candle of Invocation, the Joker Bard can do exactly the same thing. And we all know just how moral Joker is, he could get one just by knocking over any old temple who happens to have one.

    GM: Okay, you summon your titan chain. So do I. Titan chain negates titan chain. Now let's play nice, shall we?

    Basically, this is the personification of the threat "If you abuse it, expect it to be abused against you in the near future". You want to abuse a Hulking Hurler? Fine, Joker goes out and hires/bribes/diplomances one to work for him. You want to abuse Titan Chains? Fine, Joker can too. You want to go all Tippy on him? Fine, he can go there too (although not as potently, as he does not have an ability to metamagic the stuffings out of his magic, however he doesn't really need to, just negate the advantages of the metamagic).

    In short, this is designed to be the stick the GM uses to beat Optimizers at their own game with.

    Got a group of Powergamers and Optimizers who Just Don't Care? Joker Diplomances a LG church of Heironous and convinces them that the PC's are the most dangerous threat on the planet... because they just don't care. They'll do anything, commit any atrocity, just to further their own goals.

    Now they've got one of the largest religious groups actively hunting them down, with High Priests easily capable of doing their own Gate shennagians if the PC's start it up.

    Best way out of it? Prove Joker was wrong. Start caring and giving a damn. Actively participate in the game. Then better plot hooks become available to use. However, if they're going to be pricks... well... them's as who gives... gets.

    If the PC's won't come to Plot... then Plot comes to the PC's.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2008-12-19 at 12:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    All this and still no mention of "Joker's Hideous Laughter"? C'mon, it begs to be homebrewed.

    Joker's Hideous Laughter
    Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
    Level: Brd 6
    Components: S, M
    Casting Time: 1 standard action
    Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
    Target: One creature
    Duration: 1 round/level
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: Yes

    This spell afflicts the subject with uncontrollable laughter. It collapses into gales of manic laughter, falling prone. The subject can take no actions while laughing, but is not considered helpless. Each round on its turn, it takes 2d6 subdual damage unless it makes a DC 20 Will save to stop laughing as a full round action. If at any time subject is reduced to unconsciousness, it dies instead.

    After the spell ends, it can act normally assuming it survived.

    Only humanoid creatures with 3 or higher intelligence are affected.

    Material Component
    A specially made green colored gas released from a vial towards the target.


    Now it's not perfect, slapped together within a few minutes. But if someone doesn't come up with something better, it's serviceable.
    ...

    Then there may or may not be Harley. If there is, I envision her as a bruiser, especially as a barby who flies into a homicidal rage when Mistah J is threatened. Add as much cheese as desired and we may get ourselves a lean, mean, potential killing machine.
    Last edited by Pronounceable; 2008-12-19 at 12:09 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #65

    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by TempusCCK View Post
    even then it's still a challenge, unless you go the "My wizard doesn't care about anything" route. In which case, that person has more problems than simply being a powergamer.
    I agree. My original reply where I suggested that the Wizard simply not caring was the largest weakness in the Joker being able to be any kind of a foil to the Wizard was based on many responses from others in "Wizards are the roXorz!" threads, and was meant to be tongue in cheek. I can kinda get my head around the Schrodinger's spell lists, but when the arguments in favor of Wizard ultimate supremacy devolve into things like "Well, the Wizard obviously wouldn't go there or do that, because he just doesn't care about anything or anyone other than himself" it starts looking a little desperate.

  6. - Top - End - #66

    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    If I were GM, I would have the joker hire the players.

    Hire them to steal a stolen artifact stolen by the Church of Vecna Pelor. Of course, the Vecnese priests are disguised as clerics of Pelor. An extra sack of gold for killing them all.

    Then he would tell the headquarters of the Paladins of Pelor/Rainbow servants etc, to be scrying on this particular Church.


    Now the players are all marked for death, the Joker has some powerful artifact, and any paladins in the party have fallen. Maybe some clerics too. I dont think a Cleric of Pelor could get away with slaughtering a bunch of fellows.



    The joker also needs undetectable alignment.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    So, to beat a wizard, you need to basically make a sorcerer. Because this isn't a bard. Sublime chords are just sorcerers with the PrC abilities tacked onto the wierd end, but everything you mention can be done with a sorcerer, and better done with a wizard.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    So, to beat a wizard, you need to basically make a sorcerer. Because this isn't a bard. Sublime chords are just sorcerers with the PrC abilities tacked onto the wierd end, but everything you mention can be done with a sorcerer, and better done with a wizard.
    Close...

    Read the OP again.

    His biggest and best methods of operating is using social skills, blufing his way out of anything.

    The wiz/sorc spells from Sublime Chord are only used insofar as to negate Batman Wizard Optimization being one big 'I Win' button. If you don't have a PC doing a Batman Wizard, he can be toned down to straight Bard (or maybe Bard/Fatespinner if you like) and work perfectly well.

    The only reason why he has Sublime Chord is because it's the only way to challenge a Batman Wizard.

    And again, I would like to point out that the point of Joker is not to 'beat' a Batman Wizard, but simply challenge him and make him expend more effort than two spells + Pre-Buffing.

    Batman Wizard has I Win buttons all over the place. He can eliminate any threat, no matter how nasty, simply because he has that much power.

    Joker is designed to challenge that build, by negating many of his I Win buttons, and negating and/or countering many of a traditional Batman Wizard's tactics.

    Again, he's not supposed to WIN. He's supposed to be defeated... then after that, the Batman Wizard goes... "Wow... I'm out of spells... low on usable resources... but damn that was fun". That's what Joker is supposed to do. Not to beat Batman Wizard... but to give him a run for his money, and make him earn his victory.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2008-12-19 at 12:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
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    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by cnsvnc View Post

    Joker's Hideous Laughter
    I love it so much.

    The "Joker" concept I came up that followed a different pattern, as I had a BBEG already set up. He was also a bard and loved to use his bluff/perform skills to manipulate others into attacking the PC's or to illusion up things to cause chaos. He served as the Dragon to my BBEG (who loved to use the "Joker" to keep attention off him. For ages, the players never even knew the two were in league) and until the party were seriously mid-high level they never actually managed to engage him in physical combat. Even then, he was never actually killed by the party. They had him apparently down to 0 and were being engaged by the Lich BBEG. When they drove him off, the body had vanished...

    The fact that I also roleplayed him as a manic, rhyme talking madman with no regard for life also annoyed the hell out of my group. It gave me a chance to actively taunt them for their failures "in character" and that led to some real antagonism as each player blamed the other.

    Love the idea, love the plan to bring down the wizard.
    Continue...

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Close...

    Read the OP again.

    His biggest and best methods of operating is using social skills, blufing his way out of anything.

    The wiz/sorc spells from Sublime Chord are only used insofar as to negate Batman Wizard Optimization being one big 'I Win' button. If you don't have a PC doing a Batman Wizard, he can be toned down to straight Bard (or maybe Bard/Fatespinner if you like) and work perfectly well.

    The only reason why he has Sublime Chord is because it's the only way to challenge a Batman Wizard.
    You do realize that those social skills are doable with certain builds that use wizard or sorcerer and are both superior casters to this, right? Social builds as either of those full casters is very much viable. Also, you do need the sublime chord for reasons you didn't mention. Finding their family and people they care about. While my characters have those, I don't run about saying "I'm the child of blah and blah, and they live at this adress." You need to use divinations that are of a higher level than what a bard can get to find the solutions to those questions. You need the full caster levels to stand a chance when inevitably cornered, and since contact plane, legend lore and proper divination all ignore defenses set against them, mostly because the target isn't you, he'll actually find you within the day, or at least, a few days. (Or the cleric will.) Since ressurection magic exists, threatening a likely rich adventurer is a hollow threat at best.

    But in either even, you are essentially just making a social sorcerer and calling it something other than a full caster to challenge the wizard. That's pretty much what caster duels are. Full casters of course challenge a full caster.
    Last edited by Yukitsu; 2008-12-19 at 12:30 PM.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Do you have a Batman wizard abusing Titan Gate Chains? With a Candle of Invocation, the Joker Bard can do exactly the same thing. And we all know just how moral Joker is, he could get one just by knocking over any old temple who happens to have one.
    My preferred way of dealing with such abuse would be to disallow the players from using certain spells or items - not to go into an arms race to reach a Minmexican Standoff.

    Look. You're the DM. You've got Rule Zero on your side. If powerplayers bother you, don't deal with them by trying to beat them at their game, deal with them by making them play yours.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    You do realize that those social skills are doable with certain builds that use wizard or sorcerer and are both superior casters to this, right? Social builds as either of those full casters is very much viable. Also, you do need the sublime chord for reasons you didn't mention. Finding their family and people they care about. While my characters have those, I don't run about saying "I'm the child of blah and blah, and they live at this adress." You need to use divinations that are of a higher level than what a bard can get to find the solutions to those questions. You need the full caster levels to stand a chance when inevitably cornered, and since contact plane, legend lore and proper divination all ignore defenses set against them, mostly because the target isn't you, he'll actually find you within the day, or at least, a few days. (Or the cleric will.) Since ressurection magic exists, threatening a likely rich adventurer is a hollow threat at best.

    But in either even, you are essentially just making a social sorcerer and calling it something other than a full caster to challenge the wizard. That's pretty much what caster duels are. Full casters of course challenge a full caster.
    Some other differences: Six skill points per level (instead of two for the Sorc), a skillmonkey's list of class skills (instead of six for the Sorc), casting in light armor with no penalty, no XP time bomb familiar (though variants can let your wizard trade the familiar for something useful).

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    Some other differences: Six skill points per level (instead of two for the Sorc), a skillmonkey's list of class skills (instead of six for the Sorc), casting in light armor with no penalty, no XP time bomb familiar (though variants can let your wizard trade the familiar for something useful).
    At the level he's discussing, class skills and skill points are largely unnecessary, because moment of prescience is capable of consistantly hitting the top end DC of most skills you could possibly want to succeed in, and they have the top end of a class ability that doesn't max out (bluff) as a class ability already. Also, most people don't worry about light armour proficiency, simply because armour is all or nothing. Either you focus on it, and spend your cash, feats and stats in getting enough to hit 43 by level 20, or you forget about it, because 25 doesn't stop anything. I'd rather have superior PrC options than any of those.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    My preferred way of dealing with such abuse would be to disallow the players from using certain spells or items - not to go into an arms race to reach a Minmexican Standoff.

    Look. You're the DM. You've got Rule Zero on your side. If powerplayers bother you, don't deal with them by trying to beat them at their game, deal with them by making them play yours.
    This is certainly valid, but as the GM, sometimes it's fun to just go toe to toe with the players and find a workable challenge.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    At the level he's discussing, class skills and skill points are largely unnecessary, because moment of prescience is capable of consistantly hitting the top end DC of most skills you could possibly want to succeed in, and they have the top end of a class ability that doesn't max out (bluff) as a class ability already. Also, most people don't worry about light armour proficiency, simply because armour is all or nothing. Either you focus on it, and spend your cash, feats and stats in getting enough to hit 43 by level 20, or you forget about it, because 25 doesn't stop anything. I'd rather have superior PrC options than any of those.
    Moment of Prescience is an 8th level spell. The kind of social networking the Joker does would need way more castings of it than you can get.


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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    With Diplomacy, skill points will matter, even at high level. At level 20, if a Sorcerer maxes out Diplomacy, it will be 11 (ranks)+20 (Moment of Prescience) + Charisma modifier (let's say +8?) -10 (in-combat) for a total of 29 + die roll. It's impossible to turn a hostile into a helpful unless you have other modifiers.

    With a Bard, that 11 would turn into 23, for a total of 41 + die roll. You have to roll a 9 to turn a hostile into a helpful, not counting other modifiers.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by Behold_the_Void View Post
    Moment of Prescience is an 8th level spell. The kind of social networking the Joker does would need way more castings of it than you can get.
    He can get all his mooks and most contacts on charisma bonus alone, and can get any harder to get stuff due to actual ranks in bluff. Social networking DCs are actually fairly low under normal circumstances.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    With Diplomacy, skill points will matter, even at high level. At level 20, if a Sorcerer maxes out Diplomacy, it will be 11 (ranks)+20 (Moment of Prescience) + Charisma modifier (let's say +8?) -10 (in-combat) for a total of 29 + die roll. It's impossible to turn a hostile into a helpful unless you have other modifiers.

    With a Bard, that 11 would turn into 23, for a total of 41 + die roll. You have to roll a 9 to turn a hostile into a helpful, not counting other modifiers.
    His strategy doesn't use diplomacy, partly because adjudicating diplomacy on NPCs by NPCs is mostly fiat anyway. For instance, you can start all NPCs as indifferent without any real issues.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Several other skills are also useful even in those upper reaches. Disguise, for instance. A mundane disguise is undetectable by magical means, and opposed by a Spot check (which can vary by level). It's on the Bard's list, but not on the Sorcerer's. Hide is also opposed by a Spot check - Bard has it, Sorcerer doesn't.

    Though for extra cheese, there's no reason you can't just take one (or two)levels of Sublime Chord, then another PrC that advances a spellcasting class. Just specify that the class you're advancing is Sublime Chord.

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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by Telonius View Post
    Several other skills are also useful even in those upper reaches. Disguise, for instance. A mundane disguise is undetectable by magical means, and opposed by a Spot check (which can vary by level). It's on the Bard's list, but not on the Sorcerer's. Hide is also opposed by a Spot check - Bard has it, Sorcerer doesn't.
    Neither of these are all that necessary, however, nor representative of the joker.

    Though for extra cheese, there's no reason you can't just take one (or two)levels of Sublime Chord, then another PrC that advances a spellcasting class. Just specify that the class you're advancing is Sublime Chord.
    That's still 7 levels of prestige that the bard lacks that the sorcerer or wizard doesn't.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    If your sorceror joker spends a lot of his high level spell slots creating his social networking devices, laying his own traps, etc. then what is he gonna do when the Batman wizard eventually catches him at the scene of the crime? If your burning 8th level slots to convince someone of something, your not using those 8th level slots to blow the building up, capture the hostage, set up traps for batman, defend yourself from him, or anything else. This is still Batman your dealing with here, he has more resources then you. When he comes a knocking you'd better have as many tricks up your sleeve as possible. The sorceror is both worse then the bard at diplomacy, he's also less efficient.

    The bard can walk into the middle of a crowded room and use his bardic powers to make suggestions without ever casting a spell, something neither the sorceror or telepath can claim. Among other things this can mean that if he is successful no one has any way of figuring out what he's up to. The sorceror needs to have silent spell, still spell, and eschew materials to pull off the same feat. Sorcerors hurt for feats.

    Also, your right most of the time it's not hard to build a circle of friends. However it is difficult to convince Harvey Dent to go and undo all the hard work he's done, sentence the city he's been charged with protecting to mafia rule, and even murder people he's been working closely with. And base the entire revenge scheme on something that is ultimately the Jokers fault. This is the kind of thing that Joker should be able to pull off, regardless of Harvey's will save.

  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    Neither of these are all that necessary, however, nor representative of the joker.
    I entirely disagree. Joker uses disguises frequently in his nefarious plans, Diplomacy is just non-hostile convincing of people without blatantly lying (i.e. bluff). Joker does this surprisingly well.



    That's still 7 levels of prestige that the bard lacks that the sorcerer or wizard doesn't.
    Again, this is a BBEG that can do everything the GM needs to do. Furthermore, it has the flavor necessary to emulate the Joker perfectly.

    Most of what he does is non-magical. Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate/Disguise... all things that, being non-magical, cannot be defeated by magical means.

    Also, there's one spell that is NOT in the Wiz/Sorc list that Joker will likely use more than anything else... Glibness. Beating Detect Lies and Compel Truth is vital for this character.

    And, for the umpteenth time, I'm not trying to BEAT a Batman Wizard... I'm trying to make a CHALLENGE that he can't just 'I Win' past. Particularly, I'm not interested in an 'arms race'. Yes, he could do magic more effectively as a pure Sorc. I don't care. He has enough spellcasting for the purposes of the challenge. He's not supposed to be slinging spells at the PC's very often. He's supposed to be beaten in a straight-up fair fight. That's why he goes to such pains to keep any encounter with him from being anything remotely resembling a fair fight.

    If I just wanted to, I could have thrown the 'evil twin', using the Batman Wizard's character sheet, cloned, which can, by default, do everything the Batman Wizard can do. That's easy.

    No, I want to build a character who evokes fear just because he's that freekin' scary. Not scary as in overpowered, but scary as 'This guy is flippin' CRAZY'. I wanted to build an NPC BBEG who can logically do most of the things he does without resorting to magic.

    If there was a PrC he could get into that let him bypass scrying, alignment and truth detection, and advanced Bard casting, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Hell, that would be better than Sublime Chord for my purposes. Really, the only reason why I went Sublime Chord was for Contingency, because Joker *ALWAYS* had an escape route Batman didn't plan for. If I could get a method of getting Contingency as a spell-like ability, or some other method of setting up escape routes that he doesn't have to activate to go into effect, that would obviate any need for Sublime Chord.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2008-12-19 at 02:59 PM.
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  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    That's just the thing, however. He doesn't provide any challenge unless he acts more like a full caster than a bard, and his build reflects that. Social network and mooks is what he has that a sorcerer and wizard can't easily do (unless built to that end) and capturing and threatening people he likes can equivalently be done by the right kind of wizard, or any sorcerer. And despite all that, the problem is that he will be forced to fight within the first 2 days because he can't avoid being found in those 2 days.

    If you seriously want to represent the joker as someone doing things in a mundane manner, try doing it through classes that don't have ninth level spells, and won't come to rely on a plethora of spells when you try putting this into practice. A rogue forsaker is probably much more capable at representing that than a bard, who will ultimately rely heavily on magic every step of the way.

    Lastly, you shouldn't need magic contingencies. The joker does it through being a clever jerk that acts unpredictably. His contingencies should be methodological, never a cure all spell.
    Last edited by Yukitsu; 2008-12-19 at 03:46 PM.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

  24. - Top - End - #84
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    This reminds me of a BBEG I've been playing with in case I ever DM a campaign: a changeling Bard. Very similar to the Joker in that his specialty would be taking the form of would-be pawns and using a combination of warped logic and persuasion to convince them that he was actually them and that they were the BBEG. In other words, every group the party finds themselves in conflict with is led by someone who honestly believes that they themselves are the mastermind. All the while the Bard is watching on, sometimes even in plain sight as timid guardsman #3 or the BBEG's well-meaning-but-misled girlfriend. It'd be like one big "I am Spartacus" scene for the villain!

    The Bard wouldn't have the brute strength or awesome arcane power to overcome every conflict, but he wouldn't need it. Instead, he simply mindscrews people into doing his bidding without ever showing his face. Fighting him would be like punching fog because you're never sure if you caught the real one this time.

    There are two feats that make this as dangerous as it could be. One allows a bard to cast magic as part of a perform check (and he'd have oratory or acting as perform skills). The other one is a changeling specific feat that lets them create a temporary persona for their assumed form - which means that detect thoughts/alignment/lies would be ineffective against him when he's in character. (To make things even more amusing, make his one of his alter-egos one of the party... My Own Worst Enemy, DND Style.)

    How does that sound for a first attempt?
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  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    Snip
    I like this way far, far more than the other way.
    Me: I'd get the paladin to help, but we might end up with a kid that believes in fairy tales.
    DM: aye, and it's not like she's been saved by a mysterious little girl and a band of real live puppets from a bad man and worse step-sister to go live with the faries in the happy land.
    Me: Yeah, a knight in shining armour might just bring her over the edge.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    That's just the thing, however. He doesn't provide any challenge unless he acts more like a full caster than a bard, and his build reflects that. Social network and mooks is what he has that a sorcerer and wizard can't easily do (unless built to that end) and capturing and threatening people he likes can equivalently be done by the right kind of wizard, or any sorcerer. And despite all that, the problem is that he will be forced to fight within the first 2 days because he can't avoid being found in those 2 days.
    And just how are you supposed to find him?

    If you seriously want to represent the joker as someone doing things in a mundane manner, try doing it through classes that don't have ninth level spells, and won't come to rely on a plethora of spells when you try putting this into practice. A rogue forsaker is probably much more capable at representing that than a bard, who will ultimately rely heavily on magic every step of the way.
    And the rogue forsaker can be scried, found, located, and eliminated extremely quickly. Joker's immunity to scrying is one of the things he does to negate much of the Batman Wizard's arsenal.

    Lastly, you shouldn't need magic contingencies. The joker does it through being a clever jerk that acts unpredictably. His contingencies should be methodological, never a cure all spell.
    The problem I'm trying to circumvent is "Batman Wizard blows him away with x combo"... the counter to which is "Contingency upon Batman Wizard targeting Joker, activating Celerity which Joker uses to DimDoor out of there.

    This reminds me of a BBEG I've been playing with in case I ever DM a campaign: a changeling Bard. Very similar to the Joker in that his specialty would be taking the form of would-be pawns and using a combination of warped logic and persuasion to convince them that he was actually them and that they were the BBEG. In other words, every group the party finds themselves in conflict with is led by someone who honestly believes that they themselves are the mastermind. All the while the Bard is watching on, sometimes even in plain sight as timid guardsman #3 or the BBEG's well-meaning-but-misled girlfriend. It'd be like one big "I am Spartacus" scene for the villain!

    The Bard wouldn't have the brute strength or awesome arcane power to overcome every conflict, but he wouldn't need it. Instead, he simply mindscrews people into doing his bidding without ever showing his face. Fighting him would be like punching fog because you're never sure if you caught the real one this time.

    There are two feats that make this as dangerous as it could be. One allows a bard to cast magic as part of a perform check (and he'd have oratory or acting as perform skills). The other one is a changeling specific feat that lets them create a temporary persona for their assumed form - which means that detect thoughts/alignment/lies would be ineffective against him when he's in character. (To make things even more amusing, make his one of his alter-egos one of the party... My Own Worst Enemy, DND Style.)
    Hmm... this sounds exactly like what I'm trying to go for. Which feat is the changling specific feat that lets them create temporary persona for their assumed form? This might negate the requirement for being a Sublime Chord to challenge a Batman Wizard with.
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    The feat is called "Persona Immersion" and it's on page 110 of "Races of Eberron". What it more or less amounts to is that every time you succeed on a save against any telepathic or divination effect, you get to provide whatever false reading you'd like. The only requirement is that you must be a changeling to use it.

    You could make that even more useful with Force of Personality (Complete Adventurer), which lets you use Charisma instead of Wisdom for Will Saves. An astronomical Charisma would then make you an effective juggernaut in the mind game department.

    As an added bonus you could also take the warshaper prestige class, which would make you unsettlingly tough when in an assumed form (read: always).
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  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    And the rogue forsaker can be scried, found, located, and eliminated extremely quickly. Joker's immunity to scrying is one of the things he does to negate much of the Batman Wizard's arsenal.
    Well, the thing is that if we don't assume Batman is level 17 (near-epic already), but instead, say, 10 or so, then that makes it much less of a problem.

    D&D wasn't made for arms races. That's what Paranoia and Exalted are for.
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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Quote Originally Posted by Calemyr View Post
    The feat is called "Persona Immersion" and it's on page 110 of "Races of Eberron". What it more or less amounts to is that every time you succeed on a save against any telepathic or divination effect, you get to provide whatever false reading you'd like. The only requirement is that you must be a changeling to use it.

    You could make that even more useful with Force of Personality (Complete Adventurer), which lets you use Charisma instead of Wisdom for Will Saves. An astronomical Charisma would then make you an effective juggernaut in the mind game department.

    As an added bonus you could also take the warshaper prestige class, which would make you unsettlingly tough when in an assumed form (read: always).
    Warshaper isn't where I'm wanting to go with this. Here's my problem, I want to make someone immune to scrying, otherwise Discern Location will pick him up. So Batman Wizard can lock him up, and take him out.

    Furthermore, this presupposes you'll actually make your save. Batman Wizard has a number of ways to make the DC's for his saves simply astronomical.

    I like the idea of faking things, that's really part of his character. But if he blows a save, the party is going to find him and stomp him, and I'd rather not let it get that chancy.

    I do think I'll include it, just because it's so much fun and so like the joker, but more of a 'how he watches the party' more than 'standard modus operendi'. He'll be using it in his early days, before he can get access to Mind Blank, which is just about the same time Batman Wizard gets Discern Location. Assuming Batman Wizard doesn't cheat and use Circle Magic or CoOperative Magic to boost scry DC's into the 100's, you should be able to fend him off at this point.

    Well, the thing is that if we don't assume Batman is level 17 (near-epic already), but instead, say, 10 or so, then that makes it much less of a problem.
    Scrying is a 4th level spell. That means he can have it by level 7. At that point, either you have some method of bypassing scrying, or you're screwed vs a Batman Wizard.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2008-12-19 at 05:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
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    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker

    Scrying is a divination spell with a will save, which triggers Persona Immersion. Let the Batman scry on him all he likes, the Joker is never there when things go down and he is perfectly "normal" when the scry hits him. The scry might find a little girl named Susan (Joker in disguise).

    The key thing is that the Batman has to know who this Joker is. Yeah, he can power his DCs up to the stars, but if you don't have a reason to suspect random spectator #5, odds are they won't have the resources to go after everyone. I'm serious about punching fog. They don't know who it is, don't know what it looks like, they don't even know its name or even its gender or race. They just know that it fries minds like nobodies business and uses people to do its bidding.

    I'd point out that for every point of INT the Batman can muster, the Joker can muster just as much CHA, which would do double duty with Force of Personality. Combine the fact that Disguise Spell makes spells unidentifiable and you can have some real fun in a battle of wits. Combine it with Subsonics and you can use your music abilities without even making identifiable sounds, which can screw people up even more without ever exposing yourself. (Both of these feats are in Complete Adventurer)

    The warshaper kinda depends on what kind of Joker you're thinking of. There's something whimsical about someone who can make natural weapons at will and make his limbs stretch five feet more than they rightly should, have high strength and constitution, immunity to crits, and fast healing 2.
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