[3.5] Indigo Trickster (PEACH)

Dralnu · 05-20-2011, 03:45 AM

Indigo Trickster

"Are you sure you want to attack me, and not the 'me' over there?"
-- An illusory duplicate of Ezreal Drillun, an indigo trickster.

Indigo Tricksters combine skill, arcane magic, and deadly fighting technique to catch their opponents off-balance and capitalize their foes' lapse in defense to deliver a deadly flurry of blows. Indigo Tricksters love the challenges that adventure brings, and they relish finding unique and inventive ways to use their abilities. Their cunning use of illusion magic sets their opponents up, only to knock them down with a devastating onslaught of steel and arcane might.

If you like the idea of playing a dual-wielding roguish fighter with a synergistic arsenal of sneaky illusion magic, then the Indigo Trickster is for you.

GAME RULE INFORMATION
Indigo Tricksters have the following game statistics.
Abilities: High Dexterity is most important for an indigo trickster, as the AC, Initiative, and Reflex boosts all greatly synergize with class abilities. A high Strength is also important for indigo tricksters that rely on the stat to hit and deal damage. A good Intelligence makes your invocations harder to resist and also improves your AC. As usual, good Constitution greatly helps an otherwise squishy melee class.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8
Starting Age: As rogue.
Starting Gold: As rogue.

Class Skills
The Indigo Trickster's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).

Skill Points at First Level: (6 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

INDIGO TRICKSTER

Level	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special	Invocations Known
1st	+1	+0	+2	+0	Arcane Surge, Invocation (least), Quick To Act +1	1
2nd	+2	+0	+3	+0	AC Bonus	2
3rd	+3	+1	+3	+1	Two-Weapon Fighting	3
4th	+4	+1	+4	+1	Lowered Guard -1	4
5th	+5	+1	+4	+1	Arcane Fission, Quick To Act +2	4
6th	+6/+1	+2	+5	+2	New Invocation (least or lesser), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting	5
7th	+7/+2	+2	+5	+2	Trickster's Savvy, Evasion	6
8th	+8/+3	+2	+6	+2	Lowered Guard -2	7
9th	+9/+4	+3	+6	+3	Uncanny Agility	8
10th	+10/+5	+3	+7	+3	Quick To Act +3	8
11th	+11/+6/+1	+3	+7	+3	New Invocation (least, lesser, or greater), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting	9
12th	+12/+7/+2	+4	+8	+4	Lowered Guard -3	10
13th	+13/+8/+3	+4	+8	+4	Impenetrable Illusions	11
14th	+14/+9/+4	+4	+9	+4	Improved Evasion	12
15th	+15/+10/+5	+5	+9	+5	Quick To Act +4	12
16th	+16/+11/+6/+1	+5	+10	+5	New Invocation (least, lesser, greater, or dark), Lowered Guard -4	13
17th	+17/+12/+7/+2	+5	+10	+5	Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting	14
18th	+18/+13/+8/+3	+6	+11	+6	Unseen Steps	15
19th	+19/+14/+9/+4	+6	+11	+6	Arcane Alarcity	16
20th	+20/+15/+10/+5	+6	+12	+6	Limit Break, Lowered Guard -5	16

CLASS FEATURES
All of the following are class features of the Indigo Trickster:

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: As an indigo trickster, you are proficient with simple weapons, martial melee weapons (including those that can be used as thrown weapons), and light armor, but not with shields.

Invocations: You do not prepare or cast spells as other wielders of arcane magic do. Instead, you possess a repertoire of arcane-based attacks, defenses, and abilities known as invocations. You can use any invocation that you know at will. Unlike the invocations wielded by the warlock or dragonfire adept, your indigo trickster invocations are considered supernatural abilities unless otherwise noted in their description. They are not affected by spell resistance, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you initiate one.

The save DC for an invocation (if it allows a save) is 10 + half your class level + your Intelligence modifier. Your caster level with invocations is equal to your class level. Each invocation has a spell level equal to half your class level.

The four grades of invocations, in order of their relative power, are least, lesser, greater, and dark. You begin with knowledge of one invocation, which must be of the lowest grade (least). As you gain levels in this class, you learn new invocations, as summarized on the Table and described below. A list of available invocations, along with their complete descriptions, can be found in the post following this class description.

At any level when you learn a new invocation, you can also replace an invocation you already know with another invocation of the same or a lower grade. At 6th level, you can replace a least invocation you know with a different least invocation. At 11th level, you can replace a least or lesser invocation you know with another invocation of the same or a lower grade. At 16th level, a you can replace a least, lesser, or greater invocation you know with another invocation of the same or a lower grade.

Arcane Surge: The faint blue glow surrounding your weapons begin to grow larger and brighter with each successful strike. As your weapons become engulfed with arcane energy, you suck in the power from them to fuel your devastating attack.

Some of the invocations have two versions: a regular form and a stronger "surge" version. The surge version of an invocation costs a number of surge points to use and adds an extra effect to the invocation. Invocations with a surge cost of X require that you spend a minimum of 1 surge point to activate.

You acquire a surge point with each successful attack that you make against a creature with a melee or thrown weapon in combat, which you can then use to fuel your surge invocations. These points are stored until you either expend them or until the end of the encounter, whichever comes first. The maximum number of surge points that you can store at a time is one per class level.

Example: Ezreal is a level 6 indigo trickster and is fighting an orc. He is currently storing 4 surge points. He makes makes a full attack with two daggers against an orc. Three attacks hit, earning him 3 surge points, but he can only store up to 6 points at a time, so he only gains 2 to bring him to 6.

Quick To Act (Ex): You gain a +1 bonus on initiative checks. This bonus increases by 1 at 5th, 10th, and 15th level.

AC Bonus: Starting at 2nd level, you can add your Intelligence modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. However, you lose this bonus when you are immobilized or helpless.

Two-Weapon Fighting (Ex): The path of the indigo tempest teaches how to effectively wield two weapons at once. At 3rd level, you gain Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat even if you do not qualify for the feat. If you already have Two-Weapon Fighting, you may take a feat listed as a fighter bonus feat, so long as you meet all the prerequisites for that feat.

At 6th level, you gain Improved Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat even if you do not qualify for the feat.

At 11th level, you gain Greater Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat even if you do not qualify for the feat.

At 17th level, you gain Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat even if you do not qualify for the feat.

The benefits of these bonus feats apply only when you wear light or no armor. You lose all benefits of these bonus feats when wearing medium or heavy armor.

Lowered Guard (Ex): Cracks in your enemies' defences appear when you surprise them, which you and your allies can further exploit. Starting at level 4, when you actively deny an opponent of its Dexterity bonus or strike an opponent currently denied its Dexterity bonus, it takes a -1 penalty to its AC until the beginning of your next turn. This penalty takes effect before resolving your attack and is not cumulative. This penalty increases by 1 at level 8, 12, 16, and 20.

Arcane Fission (Su): Your battle-focused arcane abilities allow you to wield your favored weapon in both hands by splitting it into two identical weapons. At level 5, if you're holding a melee or ranged weapon you are competent with in one hand and nothing in an empty hand, you may create a duplicate of the weapon that forms in your empty hand. This duplicate is made of pure arcane energy but otherwise acts identically like the original weapon, including any enchantments and effects the original weapon has except for any limited use abilities or material properties. The weapon is treated as a light weapon when wielded in your off hand. The duplicate weapon dissolves into nothing if it's not in your hand by the end of your round, or immediately if anyone else holds it. Creating a duplicate weapon is a free action.

Trickster's Savvy (Ex): Starting a 7th level, your Indigo Trickster level is equivalent to a rogue's for determining whether or not you can flank a creature with the Improved Uncanny Dodge ability (see barbarian PHB p26). If you have Rogue levels, they stack for the purpose of this ability.

Evasion (Ex): At 7th level, you can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If you make a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals damage on a successful save, you instead take no damage. Evasion can be used only if you are wearing light armor or no armor. If you are helpless, you do not gain the benefit of evasion.

Uncanny Agility (Ex): Beginning at 9th level, you may spend 2 surge points to take an additional swift or immediate action. This additional immediate action does not count against your swift actions on your next turn. You may only use this ability once per round.

Impenetrable Illusions (Su): At 13th level, you've developed such skill with the arcane arts that it's nearly impossible to detect your invocations with divination magic. When anyone employs a divination spell, spell-like ability, or magic item (such as detect magic) that may detect the magical aura of one of your invocations, the wielder must make a character level check (DC 11 + your class level) to successfully detect your invocations. Similarly, anyone attempting to use a divination such as see invisibility to reveal the effects of one of your invocations must make a level check to reveal your spell's effects. The divination user can only check once for each diviniation spell used, no matter how many of your invocations are operating in an area.

Improved Evasion (Ex): From 14th level on, you gain the benefit of improved evasion. You still take no damage if you make a successful Reflex save against an attack, and even if you fail the Reflex save, you take only half damage from the attack. If you are helpless, you do not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Unseen Steps (Ex): As you near the end of your path, your arcane magics become so seamlessly tied to your fighting style that the mundane has become magic. Starting at 18th level, for every two successful attacks that you make in a round, you may teleport yourself 5 feet in any direction as by greater teleport at the end of the attack.

Arcane Alarcity (Su): Beginning at 19th level, you learn that energy and speed are one in the same, and apply that knowledge to your invocations. By spending an amount of surge points based on the invocation's grade, you may change the invocation's casting time to a free action. Least cost 4, Lesser 8, Greater 12, and Dark 16.

Limit Break (Ex): At 20th level, you can supercharge your nerves with arcane power, allowing you to react at unthinkable speed. You may activate this ability to take additional swift or immediate actions this round. The first additional swift or immediate action costs 2 surge points, with a cumulative cost of 1 surge point per further use of this ability (3 surge points for the second swift immediate action, 4 for the third, etc.). This additional immediate action does not count against your swift actions on your next turn. You may only use this ability once per encounter.

MULTICLASS CHARACTERS

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Designer's Notes:

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I'm aiming for low/mid tier 3 twf'ing base class. From the standard dual shortswords to the multiple dagger thrower, I feel dual-wielders shouldn't have to jump through so many hoops just to be somewhat comparable to the guy wielding a greatsword.

As it stands, Two Weapon Fighting is almost always a worse option than Two-Handed Weapons. I wanted to fix that by addressing what I feel are key problems with the fighting style:
1) Way too feat intensive. Power Attack > TWF + ITWF + GTWF and is less stat-intensive while doing it. So I made those feats free.
2) You have to pay double for magic weapons. You only invest in one two-handed weapon but you gotta pay for both of those one-handed weapons. So I made the second one free.
3) No incentive to go for two-weapon fighting. Almost nothing out there encourages it, aside from some sneak attack builds that end up being subpar anyway. So I added a mechanic that promotes hitting a lot.

My second goal was to make a fun, fluid class that had interesting abilities which synergized well with each other. A common theme that I've come up with is "Denied Dexterity bonus to AC." This element is keyed to many abilities of the class. The Indigo base classes are basically fighters wielding "blue magic" from Magic the Gathering. They specialize in trickery, and they gain power over opponents when they fall into their traps.

The classes that I mostly compared with were the Duskblade, Warlock, and ToB classes. I immediately knew that I wanted this class to have more invocations known than a warlock -- the base warlock class just has too few currently, as most would agree (though the warlock still has an overall better selection). I didn't want to outdamage a Duskblade, and indeed the Trickster will not do that, as any Duskblade with Power Attack and Arcane Strike will prove. Finally, ToB classes are, generally speaking, have more powerful tools at their disposal for pure combat. In addition, they all hold qualities that the Trickster cannot surpass: Crusader will always be the better tank, Warblade will always be the better damage dealer, and the Swordsage will always be more versatile. On the other hand, the Trickster brings utility abilities that ToB classes cannot replicate. In short, the Trickster is meant to be roughly on par with the ToB classes -- more on the low-end (Swordsage) than the high-end (Warblade) -- but not surpass them.

Credits:

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Sample Playtest:
You can check it out here.

Tips And Tricks:
- The feats Indigo Aptitude (new feat) and Extra Invocation (Complete Arcane) can greatly boost your versatility
- At the beginning of combat, enemies are flat-footed until their turn, so if you're before your target's initiative you can Indigo Jaunt to them
- Phantom Assailant only disappears when it successfully attacks, so you can choose for it not to attack immediately for different results
- Invocations like Bait n' Switch and Arcane Detonation (and combinations thereof) are begging to be used creatively for great results!
- Arcane Detonation can explode any figment you create, including Silent Image

Dralnu · 05-20-2011, 03:48 AM

Invocations:

Invocation List
¹ Originally printed as a Warlock Invocation in Complete Arcane.
² Originally printed as a Warlock Invocation in Complete Mage.
³ Originally printed as a Warlock Invocation in Dragon Magic.
⁴ Originally printed as a Dragonfire Adept Invocation in Dragon Magic.
^N New Invocation described below.

Least Invocations

All-Seeing Eyes² - As Comprehend Languages on written material, plus bonus on Search and Spot checks.
Aquatic Adaptation⁴ - Breathe underwater; gain swim speed.
Arcane Knowledge⁴ (as Draconic Knowledge) - Gain bonus on Knowledge and Spellcraft checks.
Arcane Surprise^N - Detonate an attacked figment, anyone caught in radius is denied Dexterity bonus.
Beguiling Influence^{1, 4} - Gain bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.
Blur^N - Gain Blur, as the spell.
Cat Burglar^N - Use Dispel Ward, Instant Locksmith, Instant Search, and Spontaneous Search, as the spells.
Distraction^N - Use Distract, Distract Assailant, and Distracting Ray, as the spells.
Go When I Tell You^N - Use Incite, Inhibit, and Shock and Awe, as the spells.
Indigo Jaunt^N - Appear adjacent to a target that is denied their Dexterity bonus as a swift action.
Indigo Spark^N - Your attacks deal extra damage until end of turn.
Leaps and Bounds¹ - Gain bonus on Balance, Jump, and Tumble checks.
Magic Insight⁴ - Use Detect Magic and Identify as the spells.
Make Your Own Luck¹ (as Dark One's Own Luck) - Gain a luck bonus on one type of saves.
Mislead^N - Use Cloak Pool, Discolor Pool, Dead End, and Remove Scent, as the spells.
Phantom Assailant^N - Illusory double appears, target denied Dexterity bonus if successfully attacked.
Rogue's Cunning^N - Permanently gain Trapfinding ability and Disable Device as a class skill.
Rogue's Guile^N - Use Accelerated Movement, Cheat, Insightful Feint, and Sticky Fingers, as the spells.
See the Unseen^{1, 4} - Gain See Invisibility, as the spell, and darkvision.
Silent Image^N - Use Silent Image, as the spell.
Stop Hitting Yourself^N - Use Backbiter, Backlash, and Slapping Hand, as the spells.
Trick of the Eye^N - Instantly swap positions with ally or figment as standard or swift action.

Lesser Invocations

Arcane Detonation^N - Detonate an attacked figment, anyone caught in radius is denied Dexterity bonus and dealt damage.
Bait n' Switch^N - Instantly swap positions with ally or figment as a swift or immediate action.
Charm^{1, 4} - Cause a single creature to regard you as a friend.
Cheat Gravity^N - Use False Gravity as the spell.
Crashing Wave^N - Gain Pounce as part of a charge.
Decoys^N - Use Mirror Image, as the spell, except shorter duration and fewer figments.
Deflection^N - Gain AC bonus against a single attack.
Disappear^N - Use Invisibility, as the spell, or its swift version.
Find the Gap^N - Your attacks are resolved as touch attacks until end of turn.
Fleeting Target^N - Use Displacement, as the spell.
Flee the Scene¹ - Use short-range Dimension Door as the spell, and leave behind a major image.
Fool You Twice^N - Use Explosive Runes, Illusory Script, Magic Aura, and Misdirection, as the spells.
Indigo Flame^N - Your attacks deal extra damage until end of turn.
Indigo Stride^N - Appear adjacent to a target that is denied their Dexterity bonus as a swift action.
Major Image^N - Use Major Image, as the spell.
Master of Disguise^N - Use Disguise Self and Tongues, as the spells.
Mind Trickery^N - Use Delusions of Grandeur, Mindless Rage, Entice Gift, and Miser's Envy, as the spells.
Phantom Duo^N - Two illusory doubles appear, target denied Dexterity bonus if successfully attacked.
Rogue's Precision^N - Gain +1d6 sneak attack dice.
Voidsense^{1, 4} - Gain blindsense 30 feet.

Greater Invocations

Dispelling Veil^N - Use Wall of Dispel Magic as the spell.
Falling Dream^N - Use Illusory Pit, as the spell.
Indigo Blink^N - Appear adjacent to a target that is denied their Dexterity bonus as a free action.
Indigo Inferno^N - Your attacks deal extra damage until end of turn.
Nightmares Made Real² - Create illusory terrain that damages foes and allows you to hide.
Phantasms^N - Use Phantasmal Assailant, Phantasmal Decoy, Phantasmal Disorientation, and Phantom Foe, as the spells.
Phantom Mob^N - Three illusory doubles appear, target denied Dexterity bonus if successfully attacked.
Reflection^N - Gain AC bonus against a single attack, send the attack back at foe.
Trickster's Delight^N - Use Translocation Trick as the spell, silence the target.
Wave of Confusion^N - Launch spectral daggers at targets that are denied their Dexterity bonus, they are affected by confusion, as the spell.
Unseen Assailant^N - Use Greater Invisibility, as the spell, or its swift version.

Dark Invocations

Cloak and Dagger^N - Use Dominate Person, as the spell, against target currently denied their Dexterity bonus.
Enemy Of My Enemy^N - Create illusory duplicate of target that fights using the some of the original's statistics.
Fool's Bane^N - Summon illusory duplicates of yourself to full attack foes that are currently denied their Dexterity bonus.
Perilous Veil¹ - Use Veil as the spell; anyone succeeding on the Will save to negate the illusion takes damage.
Phantom Fuel^N - Three illusory duplicates appear, each of their successful attacks deny the target of their Dexterity bonus and award you with 1 surge point.
Polyscient¹ (as Dark Foresight) - Use Foresight as the spell, and communicate telepathically with a close target of the effect.
Retaliation^N - Gain AC bonus against a single attack, launch devastating wave that deals damage and stuns all in its path.
Supreme Invisibility^N - Use Superior Invisibility as the spell.
Ten-Place Trickster^N - Nine illusory doubles appear, target denied Dexterity bonus if successfully attacked.
The Greatest Illusion^N - Use Solipsism as the spell.

New Least Invocations

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New Lesser Invocations

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New Greater Invocations

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New Dark Invocations

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Credits:
I used DragoonWrath's excellent Invoker class invocation table for the formatting, and used his new invocation, Falling Dream (though I swapped it to Greater Invocation instead of Lesser).

Dralnu · 05-20-2011, 05:14 PM

Feats

Indigo Aptitude
You learn an additional least invocation.
Prerequisite: Ability to use least invocations.
Benefit: You learn one additional least invocation from the list available to you.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, you gain an extra least invocation.

Sample Encounter

Indigo Tricksters can be encountered anywhere, but are more likely to be found in large cities where their impressive stealth abilities can be used to great effect.

EL 9: The thief known as Ezreal plagues the wealthy and powerful citizens of Free City. It's rumored that there is no building that he cannot break into and, though many have tried, he can never be caught. His affiliation with the local thieves' guild has made the guild powerful players on the scene, with almost everyone paying them for "protection insurance."

Ezreal
Human Indigo Trickster 9
CN Medium Humanoid
Hit Dice: 9d8+18 (58hp)
Initiative: +9 (+3 DEX +2 Quick to Act, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 30 ft
Armour Class: 22 (+3 Dex, +6 armor, +3 AC Bonus), touch 16, flat-footed 19
Base Attack Bonus/Grapple: +9/+11
Attack: +1 scimitar +12 (1d6+3, 18-20/x2)
Full Attack: +1 scimitar +10/+5 (1d6+3, 18-20/x2) and +1 scimitar +10/+5 (1d6+3, 18-20/x2)
Ranged Full Attack: +1 dart +11/+6 (1d4+3, x2) and +1 dart +11/+6 (1d4+3, x2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Qualities: Invocations, AC Bonus, Quick to Act +2, Evasion, Lowered Guard -2, Arcane Fission, Uncanny Agility
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +9, Will +2
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 8 (28pb)
Skills: Bluff +4, Concentration +7, Disable Device +15, Escape Artist +8, Gather Information +4, Hide +15, Knowledge (arcana) +8, Knowledge (local) +8, Listen +11, Move Silently +15, Open Lock +6, Search +8, Sense Motive +4, Spellcraft +8, Spot +11, and Tumble +15
Feats: Improved Initiative (human), Indigo Aptitude (1), Quick Draw (3), Two Weapon Fighting (indigo trickster), Extra Invocation (6), Improved Two Weapon Fighting (indigo trickster), Extra Invocation (9)
Treasure: +1 scimitar, +1 mithril breastplate, +1 darts (x50)

Invocation list: Least: 7 Lesser: 4 (DC 17 for all)

Least: Rogue's Cunning, Indigo Jaunt, Indigo Spark, Blur, See the Unseen, Sudden Opportunity, Silent Image

Lesser: Arcane Detonation, Bait n' Switch, Crashing Wave, Phantom Duo

Tactics:
Ezreal pre-buffs with Blur if given the opportunity. He prefers to ambush his target if possible, employing his impressive stealth skills to gain a surprise round.

Getting off full attacks for surge points is the name of the game. Ezreal usually starts combat with Sudden Opportunity activated if the target is denied their DEX (for example, if they haven't acted yet) and Crashing Wave for a pouncing full attack. If that's not possible, he'll use Indigo Jaunt to get a full attack off. If he has surge points available, he uses a surge'd Phantom Duo and move them adjacent to other opponents but not immediately attack (delaying until right before it expires works best).

Ezreal makes liberal use of Bait n' Switch to keep opponents guessing on his true location, to avoid attacks against him as an immediate action, or to get beside a target for a full attack. Whenever an opponent attacks one of his figments he'll try to punish it with an Arcane Detonation.

Kellus · 05-20-2011, 10:46 PM

These are some very interesting classes, and quite well done in general. That being said, I'm got some things to mention.

First the stuff I like: It's nice to see two-weapon fighting get some use, definitely. I also like the surge point mechanic, since it simultaneously encourages you to make use of your arcane abilities and also get into combat. It lets you have at-will powers that are more powerful than a warlock's which require you to be in combat. I also like seeing illusion magic being used my a melee class, that's just cool.

Arcane Fission is an excellent idea, and something that TWF can really make use of. That's just a great idea all around.

Now the other stuff:

• For starters, the biggest thing, I don't understand why these are two separate classes. They're incredibly similar, with the same supernatural ability list (and rate of acquisition) as well as many of the class features. It's also worth mentioning that it's a very bad idea to give 3/4 BAB to a class focused on two weapon fighting. As someone that's played several TWF characters in the past, I can tell you that hitting the target is much much harder because of the off-hand penalties. It's hard enough to set up a full attack in the first place to take advantage of it. I actually see no reason not to consolidate the two classes into one single class, the indigo. As a tricky magic warrior character there's really nothing wrong with giving them 6 skill points as well as full BAB. I mean, the ranger has that chassis, and nobody complains. Both classes are also a little thin on class features otherwise, and by folding the two together you could have more cool stuff for them to do.

• Speaking of which, I assume there are more invocations coming since there aren't even 15 of them as of the time of writing. When you're writing more of them, you should think about some noncombat invocations, which would really help with the trickster feeling you're going for. I'd also move away from explicitly using wording like "at the start of every encounter...". You can accomplish the same thing by saying "surge points fade five minutes after you acquire them", and you don't have legions of people arguing what constitutes an encounter like the factotum.

• There's seriously no reason not to just let them cast detect magic at will. The nebulous balancing of such a lackluster spell is hardly enough to justify making people track how many times they've used it.

• You should think about having class features which are powered by surge points as well. This would let you have cool features earlier on, like the current capstone for the tempest. Being able to make a full attack as a standard action is amazing for this kind of character, and should be the sort of thing you can actually do in play. Nobody plays at level 20, so the ability is useless, as cool as it is. By having it lower and require, for example, three surge points to activate, you can turn it into a risk/reward question for the player where they have to gamble whether to go with a single attack for a surge point or a flurry of attacks which might make back the surge points they needed to power it or might end up costing them big.

• Uncanny Agility is another example of a class feature which would make more sense to power off of surge points. Spending a surge point to take an extra swift or immediate action is way more useful than making people only able to use it once per "encounter".

• Same with Arcane Alacrity. By dropping these abilities in level and requiring surge points to activate, you would not only integrate the class features with the way the class works mechanically, you can easily justify combining the two classes as described above since you don't have to worry about it being overpowered. After all, there's only one pool of surge points, so it's okay to have lots of cool abilities that trigger off of them.

• Impenetrable Illusion needs some clarification. The way it's written, it's absolutely impossible to ever see through your illusions. I think what you want is to stop people from magically seeing through them, which is cool. But make sure to mention that people can still see through them with Spot checks and interaction and so on. Because the wording is really bad right now.

• The rate of acquisition of surge points is weird. Please make it predictable like (+1, +0, +1, +0...), (+1, +1, +0, +1, +1, +0...) instead of (+1, +0, +1, +1, +0, +1, +1, +1, +0, +1, +1, +1, +0, +1, +1, +1, +0, +1, +1, +1). That's just counter-intuitive to change rates like that in the middle of the class. It seems like it was only written like that to fill dead levels. The correct solution is to write class features for the dead levels and stick with a predictable rate of gain for invocations.

• Indigo flames describes fire covering your weapon, but just increases the regular damage. It should probably do extra fire damage.

• There's no reason for deflection to have a cap on it. Having a +6 to AC at level 12 against a single attack is not a problem at all, nor is a +10 to AC at level 20.

• Please alphabetize your invocations and have a list at the start with a description of each for reference. In addition, you might want to think about having different levels of invocations, even using the same divisions as a warlock's invocations if you write enough of them. That lets you write more interesting and relevant ones at higher levels (least, lesser, greater, dark).

• Also, as a general rule you should aim for three possible options for every choice the character makes (that lets you have two characters of the same class with no overlapping abilities who aren't forced into any choice by default). That means you should be aiming for 45 different invocations. Again, separating them into different tiers will make it a lot easier to write them.

• I'm also kind of really disappointed that you don't get any abilities to make standard illusions. Everything is focused relentlessly on combat applications, which is kind of a shame. Illusion magic is some of the coolest in the game to use outside of combat, and there's really nothing here to let you do that. Even something as mundane as silent image is awesome because there are so many applications for it.

• You've got at least one instance of 'Blue Flame Tempest', presumably from an older version.

[hr]

As I mentioned above, I love the idea and think it's got lots of possibilities. I hope my suggestions are helpful.

Nice work!

Dralnu · 05-21-2011, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kellus

These are some very interesting classes, and quite well done in general. That being said, I'm got some things to mention.

First the stuff I like: It's nice to see two-weapon fighting get some use, definitely. I also like the surge point mechanic, since it simultaneously encourages you to make use of your arcane abilities and also get into combat. It lets you have at-will powers that are more powerful than a warlock's which require you to be in combat. I also like seeing illusion magic being used my a melee class, that's just cool.

Arcane Fission is an excellent idea, and something that TWF can really make use of. That's just a great idea all around.

Thank you!

Quote:

• For starters, the biggest thing, I don't understand why these are two separate classes. They're incredibly similar, with the same supernatural ability list (and rate of acquisition) as well as many of the class features. It's also worth mentioning that it's a very bad idea to give 3/4 BAB to a class focused on two weapon fighting. As someone that's played several TWF characters in the past, I can tell you that hitting the target is much much harder because of the off-hand penalties. It's hard enough to set up a full attack in the first place to take advantage of it. I actually see no reason not to consolidate the two classes into one single class, the indigo. As a tricky magic warrior character there's really nothing wrong with giving them 6 skill points as well as full BAB. I mean, the ranger has that chassis, and nobody complains. Both classes are also a little thin on class features otherwise, and by folding the two together you could have more cool stuff for them to do.

Having two similar classes is intentional. One fits the fighter archetype, the other fits the rogue one. I wanted to give people who are interested in this homebrew the option of fulfilling the skillmonkey role if the party requires it. While I certainly could merge the two, and they actually did start as a single class, I think having this option is a good thing.

I agree that 3/4 BAB hurts a TWF, who needs all the attack bonus he can get to offset the penalty. This is generally why the rogue chassis (in particualr rogue and swordsage) can never do TWF'ing as good as the fighter (dervish, revenant blade, invisible blade). I tried to offset this combat penalty by giving the trickster Lowered Defenses, which balances out the lower BAB with an equal AC (and saves) penalty on your target, and is also a debuff that helps the entire party out. It's still not as good as full BAB but, in my opinion, that's a fair trade for being the skillmonkey + trapfinding + UMD role.

The thin class features is also intentional. There were more class features originally, but I felt it just over-complicated things and made the class intimidating to even look at. I wanted the class abilities to be simple to understand, recycling as many useful abilities as I could from Core and some splatbooks, while having the invocations be the "new" stuff the reader has to digest. I wanted to table to look crisp and clear like my favorite classes: spellthief, swordsage, duskblade, beguiler, to name a few. I also made sure that there are no "dead levels." Any level without a class ability gains an invocation, so there's always something new.

On the other hand, in practice, the leveling process may show that the class is indeed a little bland. It's got about as many toys as a psychic warrior but is a great deal behind ToB's versatility. I'm not sure yet. If necessary, I'll raise the number of invocations known.

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• Speaking of which, I assume there are more invocations coming since there aren't even 15 of them as of the time of writing.

Yeah, I'm still brainstorming more. I'll try to add a couple each day until the list is full enough.

Quote:

When you're writing more of them, you should think about some noncombat invocations, which would really help with the trickster feeling you're going for.

This is a very good idea. I honestly don't think I could come up with 15+ unique combat invocations without starting to sound redundant. This would help fill out the classes and give them more utility.

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I'd also move away from explicitly using wording like "at the start of every encounter...". You can accomplish the same thing by saying "surge points fade five minutes after you acquire them", and you don't have legions of people arguing what constitutes an encounter like the factotum.

Hmm, I actually wouldn't mind having legions of people arguing about my homebrew...

You're right though. I'll change the wording to avoid confusion.

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• There's seriously no reason not to just let them cast detect magic at will. The nebulous balancing of such a lackluster spell is hardly enough to justify making people track how many times they've used it.

You're right. I just blindly copied it from the spellthief. I'll make it at will.

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• You should think about having class features which are powered by surge points as well. This would let you have cool features earlier on, like the current capstone for the tempest. Being able to make a full attack as a standard action is amazing for this kind of character, and should be the sort of thing you can actually do in play. Nobody plays at level 20, so the ability is useless, as cool as it is. By having it lower and require, for example, three surge points to activate, you can turn it into a risk/reward question for the player where they have to gamble whether to go with a single attack for a surge point or a flurry of attacks which might make back the surge points they needed to power it or might end up costing them big.

I'm not sure about this. I want the invocations to promote different ways to position yourself for a full attack. Indigo Jaunt, Bait n' Switch, and Indigo Charge are all creative and satisfying (I hope) methods of accomplishing this. I hope to introduce yet more ways to pull this off.

Being able to full attack as a standard action so cut and dry like that kind of ruins the point I think, so I stuck it up there as a capstone. I may even rework it.

Quote:

• Uncanny Agility is another example of a class feature which would make more sense to power off of surge points. Spending a surge point to take an extra swift or immediate action is way more useful than making people only able to use it once per "encounter".

I like this. Will do.

Quote:

• Same with Arcane Alacrity. By dropping these abilities in level and requiring surge points to activate, you would not only integrate the class features with the way the class works mechanically, you can easily justify combining the two classes as described above since you don't have to worry about it being overpowered. After all, there's only one pool of surge points, so it's okay to have lots of cool abilities that trigger off of them.

Maybe. I agree it should be based on surge points and not limited by encounters. I'm a little wary of giving such a powerful ability as time stop as a free action earlier than level 20 though. I'll have to think about this.

Quote:

• Impenetrable Illusion needs some clarification. The way it's written, it's absolutely impossible to ever see through your illusions. I think what you want is to stop people from magically seeing through them, which is cool. But make sure to mention that people can still see through them with Spot checks and interaction and so on. Because the wording is really bad right now.

Hehe yeah, it really is. You got it though, I don't want people to see through the illusions via magic (aka True Seeing) but mundane means are fine. I'll try and reword it.

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• The rate of acquisition of surge points is weird. Please make it predictable like (+1, +0, +1, +0...), (+1, +1, +0, +1, +1, +0...) instead of (+1, +0, +1, +1, +0, +1, +1, +1, +0, +1, +1, +1, +0, +1, +1, +1, +0, +1, +1, +1). That's just counter-intuitive to change rates like that in the middle of the class. It seems like it was only written like that to fill dead levels. The correct solution is to write class features for the dead levels and stick with a predictable rate of gain for invocations.

It's actually the 3/4 ratio, with a minor adjustment so that level 1 has an invocation instead of 0. Other than that first level it follows a strict pattern.

Quote:

• Indigo flames describes fire covering your weapon, but just increases the regular damage. It should probably do extra fire damage.

It's arcane energy so it's not fire damage. I could change the descriptive text to make it more clear though.

Quote:

• There's no reason for deflection to have a cap on it. Having a +6 to AC at level 12 against a single attack is not a problem at all, nor is a +10 to AC at level 20.

I'm wary of having no cap because, to my knowledge, this class would then have an easy method of boosting its AC higher than any other single class that I know of. I'll change it if I'm mistaken.

Quote:

• Please alphabetize your invocations and have a list at the start with a description of each for reference. In addition, you might want to think about having different levels of invocations, even using the same divisions as a warlock's invocations if you write enough of them. That lets you write more interesting and relevant ones at higher levels (least, lesser, greater, dark).

I'll alphabetize them, good call.

I guess I could make divisions. I initially wanted to do away with categories for simplicity's sake and make every invocation scale with level but it hampers my ability to churn them out.

Quote:

• Also, as a general rule you should aim for three possible options for every choice the character makes (that lets you have two characters of the same class with no overlapping abilities who aren't forced into any choice by default). That means you should be aiming for 45 different invocations. Again, separating them into different tiers will make it a lot easier to write them.

I'll aim for that. With your suggestion of non-combat / utility invocations I can really start expanding.

Quote:

• I'm also kind of really disappointed that you don't get any abilities to make standard illusions. Everything is focused relentlessly on combat applications, which is kind of a shame. Illusion magic is some of the coolest in the game to use outside of combat, and there's really nothing here to let you do that. Even something as mundane as silent image is awesome because there are so many applications for it.

I'll start work on those utility invocations.

Quote:

• You've got at least one instance of 'Blue Flame Tempest', presumably from an older version.

Fixing!

Quote:

As I mentioned above, I love the idea and think it's got lots of possibilities. I hope my suggestions are helpful.

Nice work!

You've helped a great deal! I really appreciate the time you took to make these classes better. Thank you very much!

I won't have all the changes done tonight, but I'll try to get as much as I can done tommorrow.

EDIT: Initial number crunching shows that my initial surge costs were too high pre ~lvl 16. I lowered them accordingly. Playtesting is the only way to know for sure though.

Tacitus · 05-21-2011, 03:50 AM

On Deflection, compare to Wings of Cover, a 2nd level sorcerer spell. Not quite at will, but it grants cover against one attack, essentially making one attack entirely useless. +1/2lvl to AC of a type you are probably going to want to get an item of anyway isn't all that great. Removing the cap actually lets it stay relevant at high levels because it'll surpass your item or that Shield of Faith the cleric gave you.

Hmm... why not keep them as one class with the Full BAB and 6+Skills, but offer two different Paths? I could see one path that uses speed and agility to leave behind after-images and flurries of attack while the other is more of a brute force swarm-monger.

I can totally see sending illusory duplicates to their deaths as a means of trapfinding or staving off vampires. XD

Hmm, I didn't see it, but would you consider an ability that lets you overcome uncanny dodge and other means of becoming immune to flanking? Say add your intelligence to your effective rogue level to bypass the no-flank bit and maybe a surge ability or invocation to negate All-Around Vision and Foresight? Specifically thinking of Lowered Guard with this.

Dead_Jester · 05-21-2011, 07:05 AM

Before I start, I have to say that I like this class, and I find to premise very interesting, and it's nice to see some TWF love once in a while.

However. I have to agree with the others here, these could easily be a single without radically shattering the balance, and twf with 3/4 bab almost always degenerates into a flurry of misses. And people don't dislike seeing lots of class features, they dislike dead level. That's why wizard, sorcerer and clerics are never played passed 5th level if one can avoid it, and why fighter is a 4 level class unless one goes the dungeoncrasher route, because people want to get something more than just more/bigger numbers at every level.

Also, the capstone is pretty weak, as pretty much everybody who wants can get pounce (and whirling frenzy/rage while they're at it) for a 1 level dip into barbarian. As written, it is mechanically almost always better to take that 1st level of barbarian instead of a 20th level, and it can be taken at any time.

As for the armor bonus being too high, remember that they can only use light armor (losing more or less 2 to 3 points of AC) and that not only does AC become less and less important as the character levels (more mobs target saves instead), but most monster's attack bonus scales much master than AC reliably can. I'd even recommend adding some source of miss chance (blur like effect maybe?) as an invocation.

And as for arcane alactricity being too powerful with a full attack, warblades can do it at level 17, and with Raging Mongoose added in for even more attacks (or heck, revenant blade gets timestop, but better, at 20th level for one round and still get Raging Mongoose or Time Stand Still).

EDIT: You might also want to let both these classes count as rogues for the purpose of bypassing uncanny dodge.

Dralnu · 05-21-2011, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tacitus

On Deflection, compare to Wings of Cover, a 2nd level sorcerer spell. Not quite at will, but it grants cover against one attack, essentially making one attack entirely useless. +1/2lvl to AC of a type you are probably going to want to get an item of anyway isn't all that great. Removing the cap actually lets it stay relevant at high levels because it'll surpass your item or that Shield of Faith the cleric gave you.

Good point. Removed the cap.

Quote:

Hmm... why not keep them as one class with the Full BAB and 6+Skills, but offer two different Paths? I could see one path that uses speed and agility to leave behind after-images and flurries of attack while the other is more of a brute force swarm-monger.

I can totally see sending illusory duplicates to their deaths as a means of trapfinding or staving off vampires. XD

I merged the two classes into one. I've divided the invocations into two categories: combat and utility. I added Silent/Major Image to the utility section to do just that.

Quote:

Hmm, I didn't see it, but would you consider an ability that lets you overcome uncanny dodge and other means of becoming immune to flanking? Say add your intelligence to your effective rogue level to bypass the no-flank bit and maybe a surge ability or invocation to negate All-Around Vision and Foresight? Specifically thinking of Lowered Guard with this.

Good idea. I added Trickster's Savvy and Supreme Flank to help overcome both of these.

Quote:

Also, the capstone is pretty weak, as pretty much everybody who wants can get pounce (and whirling frenzy/rage while they're at it) for a 1 level dip into barbarian. As written, it is mechanically almost always better to take that 1st level of barbarian instead of a 20th level, and it can be taken at any time.

You're right, it's weak. I swapped it out for Arcane Alarcity for now until I can think of a better capstone. One of my invocations actually gives pounce to avoid the barbarian dip thing.

Quote:

And as for arcane alactricity being too powerful with a full attack, warblades can do it at level 17, and with Raging Mongoose added in for even more attacks (or heck, revenant blade gets timestop, but better, at 20th level for one round and still get Raging Mongoose or Time Stand Still).

I should mention that I'm aiming for a middle tier 3 class and want its raw damage output to be lower than what a warblade can do. After all, the warblade does only a single thing (damage) to the exclusion of everything else and it's practically the upper limit of fighter perfection. This class has a bit more tricks and utility.

You're probably right though. The capstone remains there as a placeholder until I can find a suitable replacement.

Thanks for the feedback! I really appreciate the help.

EDIT:

Quote:

I'd even recommend adding some source of miss chance (blur like effect maybe?) as an invocation.

Missed that. Good call! Adding one that gives Blur and, at higher levels, Blink.

Tacitus · 05-21-2011, 04:02 PM

Hmm, how about an invocation that duplicates your foes? It might not be quite so deceitful, but pulling a dragon out of your hat to go toe to toe with that Red chasing you doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

Also, no Invisibility invocation?

A Silence invocation might also be useful.

A means by which to gain flight might also be useful. Phantasmal Steed being the easiest, but not everyone wants to be mounted. Phantasmal wings could be interesting.

Phantasmal Killer would probably be too strong, but I could see Color Spray, especially if you broke up the invocations into different grades and made it the second grade or something. Maybe a bigger one for the prismatic line.

Then again, that starts going off into a direction thats more just any illusion and not images and stabbity-fun focused. So, you can probably ignore half of that. >.>

Dralnu · 05-21-2011, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tacitus

Hmm, how about an invocation that duplicates your foes? It might not be quite so deceitful, but pulling a dragon out of your hat to go toe to toe with that Red chasing you doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

That sounds awesome

Quote:

Also, no Invisibility invocation?

On it.

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A Silence invocation might also be useful.

You just gave me a devious idea for this. Rough idea: baleful transposition + enemy is silenced. Surged, targets swap appearances as disguise self. Enemy wizard is stabbed mercilessly by his buddies.

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A means by which to gain flight might also be useful. Phantasmal Steed being the easiest, but not everyone wants to be mounted. Phantasmal wings could be interesting.

It does need some way to hit flyers, yes. Though you could easily make a thrown-weapon fighter with this class, melee would be left out in the cold. I'd like something original and somewhat restrictive if I add flight though. Will brainstorm.

Quote:

Phantasmal Killer would probably be too strong, but I could see Color Spray, especially if you broke up the invocations into different grades and made it the second grade or something. Maybe a bigger one for the prismatic line.

Then again, that starts going off into a direction thats more just any illusion and not images and stabbity-fun focused. So, you can probably ignore half of that. >.>

I could certainly expand the invocations to encompass all parts of the illusion school of magic. It doesn't even need to stick to just that either, so long as the class keeps its theme.

Thank you for the continued help!

So it seems that I'll inevitably have to go for a grade system with the invocations like the warlock. That means chopping up my current invocations and fitting them in the grades. I'll set to work on that now. Also, I'm merging the invocations back into one category. The line is too blurry between the two for some abilities.

Dralnu · 05-22-2011, 12:45 AM

Alright, things are shaping up now! Did a major overhaul, standardized the invocation system, 25+ invocations created. Suggestions to fill out the invocation roster welcomed!

Ravens_cry · 05-22-2011, 12:49 AM

With a name like Indigo Trickster, I expected something to do with Incarnum. Intriguing nonetheless.

Dralnu · 05-22-2011, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravens_cry

With a name like Indigo Trickster, I expected something to do with Incarnum. Intriguing nonetheless.

I have very little knowledge about Incarnum, I just added Indigo as a small reference to blue magic from Magic: The Gathering. Is the name easily confused with Incarnum? I could change it.

Tacitus · 05-22-2011, 12:26 PM

Need to change it? No. Should you change it? Thats entirely up to you. Though, don't let what has come before stifle your creativity or make you change something you don't want to.

For reference, Incarnum has a really big thing for the color blue. Azure, Cerulean, Indigo, Sapphire. All used in the names of feats, the latter of which is also included in a PrC name. Hell, the Incarnum Humans have blue tinted eyes, the lawful incarnum race has blue spines on their arms and legs, the chaotic incarnum race has blue (or sometimes red) scales on their necks and forearms, and the incarnum fey has blue skin and fur. Everything is blue.

Dralnu · 05-24-2011, 01:25 PM

I got my hands on a copy of Magic of Incarnum, and you're right. Everything. Is. Blue. That's a bit unfortunate. I can't think of a suitable replacement name yet. I initially wanted it to be called "Arcane Trickster," but yeeeeah.. If a suitable name comes up then I can change it.

I made a substantial update to the class. The invocation list is now at 51. I added a new feat for the class so they can acquire more least invocations before they can qualify for Extra Invocation. I added some skillmonkey invocations that the player can invest in at the cost of combat options. I pillaged the warlock/DA list for some suitable invocation overlap. I also nerfed "Lowered Guard" ability so it only affects AC. It lets you hit things easier so you get surge points more consistently.

I reworked the capstone. Now, once per encounter, you can take a bajillion swift actions. Congrats at being level 20 and snapping the action economy like a twig!

What do you guys think?

DracoDei · 05-24-2011, 02:37 PM

Started to read through the invocations (didn't get further than the bit that gives them invocations in the first post of the class). "Rogues Cunning" could be argued to persist in its effects even after being swapped out for another invocation (but it could be dispelled?). I would say if you swap it out then you keep the disable device ranks (but it doesn't count as a class skill for adding more, meaning you have to double your total class levels before you can add any more skill points), and you lose Trapfinding. Alternatively just say that it CAN'T be swapped out.

Dralnu · 05-24-2011, 03:17 PM

Thanks for the feedback!

As a supernatural ability, Rogue's Cunning can be dispelled or suppressed in an Anti-Magic Field. I added this to it:
"Unlike other invocations, you cannot replace this invocation once you have learned it."

Shade Kerrin · 05-24-2011, 11:51 PM

One thing I have to note is the 13th level anti-illusion feature. While it is a nice ability, it falls into the field of absolutes that plague D&D(Freedom of movement vs grapplers, normal illusions vs True Seeing)

Somewhat similar abilities may be gained via a feat(Insidious Casting, FRCS), or via 3 levels in a PrC(Wizard of High Sorcery, DRCS, IIRC). In both examples, however, they force a CL that would by default have a 50/50 success rate from an equally powerful opponent(And since both parties are equally capable of pumping CL, it typically remains that way), which would probably be a fairer approach to the ability.

Dralnu · 05-25-2011, 03:53 PM

You're right, absolutes are problematic. I changed Impenetrable Illusions to mimic Insidious Casting so it's more fair. I also removed "Supreme Flank" and replaced it with "Supreme Two-Weapon Fighting."

I copied the formatting of DragoonWraith's excellent Invoker class so there's an easily referenced chart. I also took one of his invocations, Falling Dream, but swapped it from Lesser to Greater for my purposes (I felt it would be too strong as Lesser).

The class isn't done yet, but it's almost there. Probably needs a few more invocations. I just hope it meets my goals of:
1) Fun
2) Not overly complicated
3) Low-to-mid tier 3

normalscreename · 05-25-2011, 08:32 PM

If an indigo trickster uses a one-handed weapon and duplicates it with arcane fission, does he take the -4 penalty to attacks due to his off-hand weapon not being light?
Is there any way to get around this short of using only light weapons or buying two different weapons?

Kellus · 05-26-2011, 06:33 PM

Your new capstone allows you to use a free action to buy an immediate action. Since free actions can only be used on your turn, that kind of defeats the purpose of getting a new immediate action.

Dralnu · 05-26-2011, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by normalscreename

If an indigo trickster uses a one-handed weapon and duplicates it with arcane fission, does he take the -4 penalty to attacks due to his off-hand weapon not being light?
Is there any way to get around this short of using only light weapons or buying two different weapons?

You raise a good issue. I added this sentence to arcane fission:
"The weapon is treated as a light weapon when wielded in your off hand. "

Quote:

Your new capstone allows you to use a free action to buy an immediate action. Since free actions can only be used on your turn, that kind of defeats the purpose of getting a new immediate action.

Whoops! I switched it from immediate actions to swift actions.

Avalon® · 05-27-2011, 11:24 AM

What's the action required to copy a weapon using Arcane Fusion? Is it supposed to be a free action?

Dralnu · 05-27-2011, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avalon®

What's the action required to copy a weapon using Arcane Fusion? Is it supposed to be a free action?

As the description states, it's a free action to create it. I'm going to move the sentence to be the last one.

Also, I added a badass image to represent the class.

Re'ozul · 06-13-2011, 06:04 AM

I like this class very very much an have been trying to play it for a bit now.

However, i am confused by the wording "per half your class level" that turns up several times. From the way it is used i assume it means "per two class levels" aka "times half your class level" but I'd like confirmation.

If this is true, then the indigo Spark/Flame/Inferno line is very very strong (potentially too much). Spark is fine as a damage booster in the lower levels. Flame at level 10 already means a +10 to damage which can be a lot in a full BAB class. Inferno takes the cake for a minimum of 15 damage going as high as 30 at level 20, thats a lot of extra damage.

Other things about invocations:

Least:

Sudden Opportunity: Very strong, but weird. You have full BAB and the enemy has to be dex-less already, and now you get an extra bonus. By that point you probably now have a guaranteed hit.

Lesser:

Arcane Detonation: An immediate action fireball effect, (especially if you use surge and its cheap with required surges) very powerful. The fact that you need to send out the figments before is pretty much the only reason I think this might be still balanced somewhat.

Crashing Wave: Nothing really wrong with this one, but I find it hilarious as i get the image of someone zooming across the battlefield actually leaving trails like a lightbike.

Find the Gap: Yes, yes it appears you just want to have people always hit things. Considering the figments and arcane detonation this will most likely be most enemies on the field unless they have uncanny dodge.

Everything Else looks good, but really the combination of:

FULL BAB
Lowered Guard
Ability to often negate dex
Find the Gap

basically assures a guaranteed hit on nearly every single attack roll (even when dual wielding) later on. It might be a bit much.

Dralnu · 06-13-2011, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Re'ozul

I like this class very very much an have been trying to play it for a bit now.

Thanks! I'd love to hear how it goes if you do.

Quote:

However, i am confused by the wording "per half your class level" that turns up several times. From the way it is used i assume it means "per two class levels" aka "times half your class level" but I'd like confirmation.

This is correct. It's a lingo that is used a lot in WOTC splatbooks, like the warlock.

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If this is true, then the indigo Spark/Flame/Inferno line is very very strong (potentially too much). Spark is fine as a damage booster in the lower levels. Flame at level 10 already means a +10 to damage which can be a lot in a full BAB class. Inferno takes the cake for a minimum of 15 damage going as high as 30 at level 20, thats a lot of extra damage.

You're right, that's too much damage. I changed Flame to be +1 per half your class level and Inferno to +1 per class level. Is that still too much?

Quote:

Sudden Opportunity: Very strong, but weird. You have full BAB and the enemy has to be dex-less already, and now you get an extra bonus. By that point you probably now have a guaranteed hit.

Basically I wanted to give the trickster a method to help guarantee hits because they're taking two-weapon fighting penalties and their invocations depends on hits for fuel. But yeah, it's weirdly worded and almost useless until you can take more than one swift action.

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Arcane Detonation: An immediate action fireball effect, (especially if you use surge and its cheap with required surges) very powerful. The fact that you need to send out the figments before is pretty much the only reason I think this might be still balanced somewhat.

I can see how it's pushing it. I don't think the damage is too high, but I ~~removed the ally immunity and~~ lowered the radius to 15ft.

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Crashing Wave: Nothing really wrong with this one, but I find it hilarious as i get the image of someone zooming across the battlefield actually leaving trails like a lightbike.

This one's actually my second favorite invocation. TWFs desperately need Pounce so here it is. The second part though is based off some obscure spell that I swear I've seen in some splatbook but cannot for the life of me find. The spell was Sorc/Wiz 4 Evocation (I think) that turned you into a Lightning Bolt and you were instantly transported to the end of the bolt. So stylish!

Quote:

Find the Gap: Yes, yes it appears you just want to have people always hit things. Considering the figments and arcane detonation this will most likely be most enemies on the field unless they have uncanny dodge.

Everything Else looks good, but really the combination of:

FULL BAB
Lowered Guard
Ability to often negate dex
Find the Gap

basically assures a guaranteed hit on nearly every single attack roll (even when dual wielding) later on. It might be a bit much.

I don't think having a high chance of hitting your target with all of your attacks is overpowered. I'm actually balancing surge activation costs based on the idea that you're hitting very consistently, since it's harder to balance around an inconsistent variable. So with a high hit chance being a given of the class, I want to see if the rest of the abilities are too powerful when added to that.

Thanks for the feedback! I always appreciate it.

EDIT: Hm, fixing up Sudden Opportunity / Find the Gap has me a little stumped. I'll have to think about those.

Dralnu · 06-13-2011, 11:52 PM

I nerfed Arcane Detonation further. Tell me what you think of the new version.

Arcane Detonation
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: 60ft.
Target: Your figment
Duration: Instantaneous

You charge your illusion with volatile arcane power just as your opponent destroys it, causing it to explode in a dazzling display of blue energy.

You may use this invocation when one of your figments have been destroyed. The illusion creates an explosion with a radius of 15ft. Anyone within this radius take 3d6 damage and is denied their Dexterity bonus to their AC until the beginning of their next round. Reflex save halves this damage. You and your allies are immune to this effect.

Surge 2+: For every 2 surge points spent, the blast damage is increased by +1d6 and the radius is increased by +5ft.

DracoDei · 06-14-2011, 02:28 AM

Haven't really looked at the class (yet?), but I would think that the save should negate the "Dex. Denied" thing.

Re'ozul · 06-14-2011, 04:18 PM

It looks fine now. The 2 surge points per d6 might have been enough on its own. The increasing area is good but might prove problematic if the DM enforces the weird "area spells cut off at range limit" rule that apparently can create half circle fireballs and such. The area can still be huge, but nearly no one will ever amass that many surge points only to spend them all in one ability, outside of theoretical calculations or to annoy the DM.

That said, I find myself itching to give more of my impressions about the class.
So here goes:

However, I am not particularly experienced in asessing balance and power so my opinion might not be in line with that of the more experienced homebrewers.

Class Role: Controler/secondary fighter
Its hard to figure out for me. There is a d8 and Full BAB but only a good reflex save. Some of the invocations can make you a formidable damage dealer but the low fort and will will temper any dreams about being the big tough guy. Its a very solid support fighter and screams trickster in a good way.

Skills: Virtually everything it gives the impression to need. The absence of Disable device i weird at first, but the mechannic of aquiring it later if you need it is fun and actually makes it have an impact. One thing I find missing is Sense Motive. For a class that is all about breaking the enemies composure, it would make sense to include a way to better analyse their behaviour.
Skillpoints on the other hand are generous considering this is a class that relies on Int as the secondary skill.

Arcane Surge: A fun mechanic, especially since it doesn't need the denied dexmod everything else is all about. With dual wielding and the assorted increases in hit chance you can very much rack up a lot of them easily. I would however confine it to melee weapons or define "attack" more precisely since otherwise you can rack up surge points by shooting things with a splitting bow like crazy.

Invocations: I like the Level scaling as I prefer it over "equivalent" spell levels. It makes least invocations still be effective later on. The amount you get however is a bit weird. you get 4 of each of the higher ones, but only 3 of the least. Personally, I would bump least invocations up to 5 (1 for the first 5 levels each) since rogue-alikes will pay one as a tax already and there are several good utility ones whereas many of the powerful ones will be exchanged later anyway. I don't think it would skew the power much.

Quick to act: Unnamed Initiative bonus on a roguelike class? Very much yes. Its low enough to not be too poerful but enough to make a nice impact.

Detect Magic: I am not really complaining about it, but it feels a bit out of place. Its a remnant of the warlock base concept. But even after several attempts to find something else, I can't think of anything better.

AC Bonus: Great, unnamed Bonus to AC is always welcome. The conditions fit well, but are kind of obviously coincidental with a dex-heavy class.

Two weapon fighting chain: By giving away these feats for free, the decision to use TWF becomes much easier and makes it a lot more fun. Including this was a great decision.

Lowered Guard: This is interesting, but potentially very powerful. It is basically an unnamed penalty to AC, which means it applies always, so also against touch attacks. This will make the character a boon for both the heavy hitters as well as the blasters in a group. But you'll have to keep track which enemies are denied their dex by an effect you did and which by someone else's attack.

Arcane Fission: This is the absolute best thing that can happen for a TWF character. You no longer have to worry about WBL problems, you can just create more weapons. This also makes it an instant possibility to throw weapons without problems. The only weird think is the clause that it becomes a light weapon in the off hand. Can you make a copy of a copy? If you hold a Greatsword (you can hold it just not fight effectively) then copy it into the off-hand (free action) drop the greatsword (free action) and copy the copy into the main hand (free action) you are now wielding two greatswords that count as light weapons.

I know this isn't really possible but the image is hilarious.

Trickster's Savvy: Very nice, but considering how easily you can deny dex-mods at this point its a minor bonus. Still very nice though.

Evasion: Standard and always useful, not much to add here.

Uncanny Agility: Considering this is about the time when you can really do things with immediate actions this is very very good. It can also make the character a frightening thing in-game when he can utterly destroy any plan even when its not his turn, very nice.

Impenetrable Illusions: This one is great especially for the "switch with enemy invocation". It is especially awesome if you use said invocation on allys before a fight and suddenly everyone in the party is someone else as what appears to be the wizard suddenly charges the enemy, confusion ahoy. This increases the trickster appeal by a lot.

Improved evasion: same as with evasion.

Supreme Two-Weapon Fighting: Why does this have its own entry? Still, its awesome, you now have 8 attacks, thats 8 potential surge points before AoOs and figment abuse. You are a whirlwind of activity now.

Arcane Alarcity: Is it swift or immediate? Either way it allows you to spam once per encounter usually to go nova when you hit 20 surge points. Awesome.

I'll go into invocations in the next post.

Dralnu · 06-15-2011, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DracoDei

Haven't really looked at the class (yet?), but I would think that the save should negate the "Dex. Denied" thing.

I'd rather keep it as a guaranteed Dex Denied. It requires someone actively destroying your figment before you can make it explode and then be within the radius, and it eats up your precious swift action for the round.

Quote:

It looks fine now. The 2 surge points per d6 might have been enough on its own. The increasing area is good but might prove problematic if the DM enforces the weird "area spells cut off at range limit" rule that apparently can create half circle fireballs and such. The area can still be huge, but nearly no one will ever amass that many surge points only to spend them all in one ability, outside of theoretical calculations or to annoy the DM.

I changed the radius to 10ft. with each 2 surge points increasing by +10ft. At level 6, assuming you've successfully hit 6 times previously in the encounter (aka two full attacks most likely), you can use all your points do an immediate action fireball with a radius of 40ft, 6d6 damage, and Dex Denial which you and allies are immune to. That should make the invocation easier to understand and hopefully more balanced. If it's not strong enough I'll make the radius a fixed 30ft. again with surge points only increasing damage.

Quote:

Class Role: Controler/secondary fighter
Its hard to figure out for me. There is a d8 and Full BAB but only a good reflex save. Some of the invocations can make you a formidable damage dealer but the low fort and will will temper any dreams about being the big tough guy. Its a very solid support fighter and screams trickster in a good way.

That's what I'm going for. A powerful support fighter who is hard to hit, but isn't able to take a beating as well as a frontline fighter or barbarian.

Quote:

Skills: Virtually everything it gives the impression to need. The absence of Disable device i weird at first, but the mechannic of aquiring it later if you need it is fun and actually makes it have an impact. One thing I find missing is Sense Motive. For a class that is all about breaking the enemies composure, it would make sense to include a way to better analyse their behaviour.

Good call. I've added Sense Motive.

Quote:

Skillpoints on the other hand are generous considering this is a class that relies on Int as the secondary skill.

I was aiming for a ranger / spellthief / swordsage level of skillmonkey with the option of being more rogue-like at the expense of an invocation slot. None of those have INT as an important stat though. Should I lower it to 4 + INT?

Quote:

Arcane Surge: A fun mechanic, especially since it doesn't need the denied dexmod everything else is all about. With dual wielding and the assorted increases in hit chance you can very much rack up a lot of them easily. I would however confine it to melee weapons or define "attack" more precisely since otherwise you can rack up surge points by shooting things with a splitting bow like crazy.

I've clarified it so it's either a melee or thrown weapon.

Quote:

Invocations: I like the Level scaling as I prefer it over "equivalent" spell levels. It makes least invocations still be effective later on. The amount you get however is a bit weird. you get 4 of each of the higher ones, but only 3 of the least. Personally, I would bump least invocations up to 5 (1 for the first 5 levels each) since rogue-alikes will pay one as a tax already and there are several good utility ones whereas many of the powerful ones will be exchanged later anyway. I don't think it would skew the power much.

I followed 3/4 BAB progression with one adjustment for level 1. It's at least one invocation too little though so I made the Indigo Aptitude feat to address that.

EDIT: I decided to change it so you get 5 invocations in the first 5 levels, which brings it in line with the other grades.

Quote:

Detect Magic: I am not really complaining about it, but it feels a bit out of place. Its a remnant of the warlock base concept. But even after several attempts to find something else, I can't think of anything better.

It's from the spellthief too, and to some extent also the swordsage. It's helpful for parties and fits the arcane fluff.

Quote:

Lowered Guard: This is interesting, but potentially very powerful. It is basically an unnamed penalty to AC, which means it applies always, so also against touch attacks. This will make the character a boon for both the heavy hitters as well as the blasters in a group. But you'll have to keep track which enemies are denied their dex by an effect you did and which by someone else's attack.

It's a holdover from when the class was two different classes and I merged them. I'm leaning towards removing it entirely because you always get a new invocation on those levels anyway. I'd rather not overcomplicate the class.

Quote:

Arcane Alarcity: Is it swift or immediate? Either way it allows you to spam once per encounter usually to go nova when you hit 20 surge points. Awesome.

It's actually a mistake on both this and Uncanny Agility. Both are supposed to be another swift or immediate action.

Quote:

Arcane Fission: This is the absolute best thing that can happen for a TWF character. You no longer have to worry about WBL problems, you can just create more weapons. This also makes it an instant possibility to throw weapons without problems. The only weird think is the clause that it becomes a light weapon in the off hand. Can you make a copy of a copy? If you hold a Greatsword (you can hold it just not fight effectively) then copy it into the off-hand (free action) drop the greatsword (free action) and copy the copy into the main hand (free action) you are now wielding two greatswords that count as light weapons.

I know this isn't really possible but the image is hilarious.

Yeah, I didn't like how little support there is for thrown weapons so I wanted to make sure that your dual wielding dagger throwers got love here. The base class could work well with the Master Thrower PrC.

The clause was made when it was pointed out that if they duplicate their weapon for dual-wielding then they'll be suffering further TWF'ing penalties if it isn't a light weapon. It's not intended to let you copy a copy, though it's not a big deal anyway.

Thanks for the feedback! You have very insightful suggestions.