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Homebrew Design Roll up your sleeves and get working: there's lots of homebrewin' to be done! Post your custom creation for critiques or review those of your peers.

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Old 05-29-2011, 01:29 AM   Top  -  End  -  #1
jiriku
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Default [3.5 Remix] The joy of skills!

This is a library of tools I use in my games to enhance the importance and utility of skill use. While the most important thing a DM can do to encourage PCs to use skills is to create challenges that beg for a skill-based solution, certain adjustments to existing mechanics can encourage players to start thinking with their skills.

LET IT RIDE
(Borrowed from the Burning Wheel RPG)
Spoiler


DIPLOMACY [CHA]
(Borrowing from Rich Burlew's Diplomacy house rule)
Spoiler


SPEAK AUTHORITATIVELY
(Borrowed from the Burning Wheel RPG)
Spoiler
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3.5 Homebrew: Remixes to rebalance nearly every base class, all in the authentic flavor of the originals.
Tier 1 casters breaking your game? Remix your magic with Philosopher's Stone, or try these flavorful mid-tier classes instead: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


Last edited by jiriku : 05-29-2011 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 01:34 AM   Top  -  End  -  #2
jiriku
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Default Re: [3.5] The joy of skills!

ADVENTURING EQUIPMENT
The following gear takes advantage of the Speak Authoritatively rules, allowing players limited discretion to dictate the contents of their packs as the plot demands. These items are commonly available in any modest-sized town or large village, or from any shop that specializes in general adventuring supplies.

Table: Adventuring Gear
Item
Cost
Weight
Adventurer’s pack  
Pouch26 gp5 ½ lbs.
Satchel126 gp26 lbs.
Greatpack252 gp52 lbs.
Spell component pouch  
Apprentice5 gp2 lbs.
Master500 gp4 lbs.
Archmage5,000 gp6 bs.

ADVENTURER’S PACK
An adventurer’s pack contains a variety of tools, implements, containers, spare coins, and even alchemical items that are of use to adventurers in the field.
Spoiler


SPELL COMPONENT POUCH
A spell component pouch might take the form of a small, watertight pouch with many compartments, a series of pockets sewn into an outfit, or capacious folds within the sleeves of a kimono, poncho, or cloak. Regardless, a spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all of the material components and foci needed for spellcasting, except for those that wouldn’t fit in a pouch.

Spoiler
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Tier 1 casters breaking your game? Remix your magic with Philosopher's Stone, or try these flavorful mid-tier classes instead: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


Last edited by jiriku : 05-29-2011 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 01:42 AM   Top  -  End  -  #3
jiriku
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Default Re: [3.5] The joy of skills!

The following feats take advantage of the Speak Authoritatively rule, or provide rebalanced versions of options presented in 3.5 sourcebooks. These remixed feats should be more attractive to players who want to invest in their skills but don't want to "throw away" feats in the process.

INVESTIGATE [General]
You can use the Search skill to find and analyze clues at the scene of a crime or mystery.
Spoiler


OPEN MINDED [General]
You are naturally able to reroute your memory, mind, and skill expertise.
Spoiler


RESEARCH [General]
You can use your knowledge skills to extract information from books, scrolls, and other repositories of facts and figures.
Spoiler


SKILL FOCUS [General]
Choose a skill, such as Move Silently. You have an extraordinary knack with that skill.
Spoiler


SKILL TALENT [General]
Choose two thematically related skills, such as Listen and Spot, or Hide and Move Silently. You have a special knack with these skills.
Spoiler
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3.5 Homebrew: Remixes to rebalance nearly every base class, all in the authentic flavor of the originals.
Tier 1 casters breaking your game? Remix your magic with Philosopher's Stone, or try these flavorful mid-tier classes instead: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


Last edited by jiriku : 05-29-2011 at 01:50 AM.
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Old 05-29-2011, 01:56 AM   Top  -  End  -  #4
Seerow
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Default Re: [3.5] The joy of skills!

1) How does the speak authoritatively interract with bardic knowledge/lore? You don't get ranks in it, but it is effectively Knowledge (Everything). Would you get it? If so would it come at level 2, when others get it, or 5 when you have +5 to it?

2) I like the skill feats, but think it would be better to just move skills onto a pathfinder-esque system. (this is coming from someone who doesn't like pathfinder, their skill system works, and does so pretty well.) ie, no x4 skillpoints at first level, but the difference between a class and cross class skill is the +3 bonus when you put your first point into a class skill.

3) May I suggest adding a [skill] tag? Make it so a rogue can choose any [skill] tagged feat as one of his class abilities, but also make that tag carry with it an extra skill point per HD, rather than making it specific to open minded. That way you can take research and get some extra skill points, or skill focus (though skill focus feels like it could be rolled in with open minded)

4) What is the normal bonus for having access to a library? I didn't see it listed in the SRD and don't know it offhand? It seems at first that research is a bit on the weak side, but I know players who would love it so...

5) No love for skill tricks, or did I just catch this topic too early? A feat that lets you use a skill trick twice per encounter, or increases your maximum skill tricks known (or both, really), would be a pretty huge boon, and a skill feat really worth having.
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Old 05-29-2011, 06:25 AM   Top  -  End  -  #5
elpollo
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Default Re: [3.5] The joy of skills!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiriku View Post
SPEAK AUTHORITATIVELY
*Snip*
I really like this. I can't really think of anything to say about it except that I am totally nicking it. It works much better with the system than the Fate points I was going to shoehorn in.


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ADVENTURING EQUIPMENT

*Snip*

SPELL COMPONENT POUCH
Also these.
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Old 05-29-2011, 06:39 AM   Top  -  End  -  #6
Veklim
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Default Re: [3.5] The joy of skills!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
1) How does the speak authoritatively interract with bardic knowledge/lore? You don't get ranks in it, but it is effectively Knowledge (Everything). Would you get it? If so would it come at level 2, when others get it, or 5 when you have +5 to it?
Beat me to it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
...skill focus feels like it could be rolled in with open minded)
That sounds too powerful to me unless you put a requirement or two in there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
5) No love for skill tricks, or did I just catch this topic too early? A feat that lets you use a skill trick twice per encounter, or increases your maximum skill tricks known (or both, really), would be a pretty huge boon, and a skill feat really worth having.
Sweet thought, but I'd personally suggest a proviso along the lines of:
'You may take this feat multiple times, to a miximum number equal to your Intelligence modifier. If you lose Int points permanently at any point, you do not lose use of this feat, but cannot take it again until you meet the modifier requirement.'
It could get a little silly otherwise, skill tricks are kinda mini-feats after all, and a high Int rogue would have a field day with the other feats presented above.

On that note:

Open Minded is now a semi-awesome feat and lends itself instantly to limited skill classes who want a focused boost. It incidentally becomes almost identical to the human racial skill bonus, with the added bonus of an extra class skill (a modification VERY common on and off these boards for humans in most settings, including mine)

Skill Focus is just a better feat now, the addition of taking 10 and the 'class skill regardless' caveat are nice, but lead me to the following thought. As it stands, you could take this feat with a skill not on ANY of your class lists, which not only spoils the spirit of the feat but detracts from Open Minded a little due to the crossover. I don't think it's an issue as such, but if you add;
Requirements:Chosen skill must be a class skill for at least one class you have one or more levels in.
I think this would define what I believe was your intention with this feat, though I may assume incorrectly.

Skill Talent is a nice and simple way of removing all those pesky 2-skill feats which clutter up my head (needs DM call on any unusual combinations though, like Tumble and Concentration for instance), but imo would similarly benefit from the caveat I listed above for Skill Focus.

The Diplomacy stuff is remarkably streamlined for the amount of ground it covers and is probably my favourite fleshing of the skill to date. I believe the word is 'elegant'.

One last thing for now, I'm really happy and also kinda annoyed with the bags you present, whereas I've been doing a very similar house ruling on spell component pouches since the early days of 3.0, the thought of doing it with standard gear was bogglingly absent in my head. I salute you, and bounce my head off the desk.
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Old 05-29-2011, 10:27 AM   Top  -  End  -  #7
jiriku
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Default Re: [3.5 Remix] The joy of skills!

Thanks!

All credit for the concepts behind Speak Authoritatively go to Luke Crane, author of Burning Wheel (which is now out of print, alas). I am merely an imitator.

--------------
I have added a couple of paragraphs establishing how to Speak Authoritatively using Bardic Knowledge and similar class features.

--------------
Libraries typically grant fixed bonuses (based on the size and quality of the library) to Knowledge checks relating to subjects covered by the tomes within the library, but extend the time required to make a check by minutes, hours or days. For a good example of this, look at the guild benefits for membership in the Paragnostic Assembly, described in Complete Champion. A typical library grants bonuses ranging from +2 to +10 to Knowledge checks on one or more subjects.

IMC, I often use Libraries as a "skill challenge" sort of encounter where players can use their checks to learn plot backstory, find adventure hooks, obtain information needed to advance their personal goals, learn the location of rare goods and treasures, or acquire tools and special knowledge that will help them fight their opponents.

Research might seem lackluster at first glance, but its real power is that it doubles the number of Speak Authoritatively uses you get from your Knowledge skills while simultaneously making it easy to pass difficult checks. This feat provides tremendous narrative control of the game if you have access to a good library... and you can Speak Authoritatively to establish the existence of a library if the DM didn't think to create one.

--------------
I have not yet directed much love towards feats that enhance the use of skill tricks, I'm afraid. Tack that onto my "to-do" list.

--------------
Skill Focus is correct as written. All three of the skill-oriented feats can be used to expand your class skill list. These feats are excellent for hybrid concepts and builds that involve heavy multiclassing between classes that don't share common skill lists.
  • Skill Focus gives you one new class skill, a +3 bonus, and Skill Mastery
  • Open Minded gives you one new class skill and enough skill points to max it out
  • Skill talent gives you two new class skills and a +2 bonus to both
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3.5 Homebrew: Remixes to rebalance nearly every base class, all in the authentic flavor of the originals.
Tier 1 casters breaking your game? Remix your magic with Philosopher's Stone, or try these flavorful mid-tier classes instead: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!

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Old 05-30-2011, 12:23 PM   Top  -  End  -  #8
Salbazier
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Default Re: [3.5 Remix] The joy of skills!

Love your homebrew as always.

Ehm, using Speak Authoritatively in crime/murder mystery campaign with Investigate may be problematic though.
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Old 05-30-2011, 09:45 PM   Top  -  End  -  #9
jiriku
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Default Re: [3.5 Remix] The joy of skills!

It requires some mental agility by the DM, who needs to be willing to handle the task of refereeing an open-ended story. For example, a PC might speak authoritatively to find a scrap of cloth at the scene of a murder that matches a tear in the cloak of the crown prince, but depending on how the DM spins that fact, it might work out that:
  1. The crown prince murdered the victim
  2. The crown prince was conducting a secret deal with the victim, and left before the murder occurred
  3. Someone framed the crown prince by placing a scrap of his cloak at the scene of a murder
  4. The crown prince murdered the victim, but isn't the real mastermind, as he was dominated by an evil wizard
  5. The crown prince is clearly the murderer, but because the grand vizier investigating the murder is firmly in the prince's pocket, he refuses to accept the evidence the PCs have uncovered, forcing them to find a way to expose the guilty parties

A DM who's stuck on the idea of "but I already had this other guy planned as the murderer!" will struggle here, but one who's willing to roll with the new developments players create will prosper.

Again, Speak Authoritatively isn't for everyone, because it requires the DM to give away some of his power to control where the game goes, and it requires players to be willing to take up that power and use it to enhance the game. In my own experience, I have one group for which it's almost not necessary to have a plot at all, because players will cooperatively use Speak Authoritatively to invent, develop, and resolve whole storylines. In a second group, the players are much more timid and Speak Authoritatively is mostly used to produce convenient vendors to buy their loot and item creators to make the stuff that they want.
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3.5 Homebrew: Remixes to rebalance nearly every base class, all in the authentic flavor of the originals.
Tier 1 casters breaking your game? Remix your magic with Philosopher's Stone, or try these flavorful mid-tier classes instead: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!


Last edited by jiriku : 05-30-2011 at 09:48 PM.
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Old 05-31-2011, 03:45 PM   Top  -  End  -  #10
SPoD
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Default Re: [3.5 Remix] The joy of skills!

Just out of curiosity, why repost Rich's Diplomacy fix? It seems almost the same, down to the same wording for most of it. It seems like your changes amount to, "There's an additional level of +20/-20 to modifiers for truly extreme risk vs. reward situations, and I switched the synergy from Bluff to Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty)."

I don't know that the changes are significant enough for you to repost the whole thing as if you were only inspired by it, rather than having copied it and then added a few tweaks. At least with the Burning Wheel lifts, you're switching systems.

EDIT: Also wanted to say that I like the Speak Authoritatively and Backpack stuff, but I would hope that you would increase the skill lists of all classes to include Knowledge (dungeoneering) and at least one other Knowledge. Otherwise, it gives more power to affect the game world to some of the classes that need it least, the wizard and the (cloistered) cleric.
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Old 06-19-2011, 08:17 PM   Top  -  End  -  #11
jiriku
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Default Re: [3.5 Remix] The joy of skills!

Rich's rules, while a worthy improvement, propose that is possible to obtain a castle in exchange for a dirty bit of string if one's Diplomacy check is high enough. I felt it necessary to tweak them.

I totally agree with you that Knowledge skills aren't shared around generously enough on the various class skill lists. If you'll browse through my class remixes, you'll find that all of the non-casting classes have Knowledge (dungeoneering) as a class skill, and an easy way to get one or more other knowledge skills in-class as well. Keep in mind as well that the DM has carte blanche to allow the use of other skills in conjunction with the adventurer's bag.
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3.5 Homebrew: Remixes to rebalance nearly every base class, all in the authentic flavor of the originals.
Tier 1 casters breaking your game? Remix your magic with Philosopher's Stone, or try these flavorful mid-tier classes instead: Machinist, Shapeshifter, Avatar, Magus of Blades, Ritualist, Magician, Dawnblade, Summoner, plus 5 elemental casters!

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Old 11-25-2012, 12:50 PM   Top  -  End  -  #12
Answerer
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Default Re: [3.5 Remix] The joy of skills!

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I like the Spell Component Pouch. And I hate spell components as a concept. But your tweaking to the pouch is appropriate and nifty.
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