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Reminds me of Saphs 7 Nations campaign journal. You could have just tamed a three story rhinocerous or be reporting about an angelic host taking control of the city, all Aiden wanted was to get some sleep!
Spellcasters. All they care about is that 8 hours to get their spell slots back.
Spellcasters. All they care about is that 8 hours to get their spell slots back.
Heh, I very rarely play spellcasters, but when I do that is basically it . In this specific case I was a mage-slayer melee build. The character was just very apathetic and lazy.
After all the venting I been doing about other people lately, how about I bring something up that *I* am guilty of and that I know kills a lot of other people's fun:
The Plot Hole Detective-This guy has an annoying, obsessive-compulsive habit of sniffing out every possible plot hole in everything the DM or other players do, no matter how minor, and bringing it up at the worst time. When he is the DM and someone points out one of his own plot holes, he puts the game on hold until he can fill the hole, even if he was in the middle of running a climactic battle or the campaign's big reveal.
Examples:
Another player was RP'ing an important scene where his character was finally able to bring his long-dead son back to life. This was basically his character's turn to wrap up a MAJOR backstory item and be in the spotlight. In the middle of their tearful reunion, it hit me. His age on his character sheet was around 30. The kid was 17 at the time of death. The kid has been dead somewhere between 5-10 years. That means the character was 3-8 years old when he had the kid. I bring the excellent RP to a screeching halt as I butt in with that observation. Even though it IS a valid question, that was obviously NOT the time or place to bring it up, and whoooooaaa man did I hear it from the rest of the group.
And in case anyone was wondering how to bring one of the games I am running to a screeching halt for anywhere from 5 seconds to 15 minutes, just point out a plot hole in my story. At first there is silence as I think about what was just said. Followed by me carpet-bombing the room with F-bombs. Then mumbling as I grasp for straws trying to come up with an at least somewhat believable filler for the hole. I am told this is quite funny to watch, though annoying cause it doesn't matter what was going on in the game before, it's on hold now. I try my best to make it into a plot hook, and sometimes tell the players "that is a good question, why not have the characters investigate it!".
I am slowly getting better at this on the player side. USUALLY I can wait till an appropriate time to point out the holes. Not always though, I still got more work to do...
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Been there, fought that, died horribly.
Something fun and flavorful to get your DM throwing books at you: Katana Chucker
Heh, I very rarely play spellcasters, but when I do that is basically it . In this specific case I was a mage-slayer melee build. The character was just very apathetic and lazy.
After all the venting I been doing about other people lately, how about I bring something up that *I* am guilty of and that I know kills a lot of other people's fun:
The Plot Hole Detective-This guy has an annoying, obsessive-compulsive habit of sniffing out every possible plot hole in everything the DM or other players do, no matter how minor, and bringing it up at the worst time. When he is the DM and someone points out one of his own plot holes, he puts the game on hold until he can fill the hole, even if he was in the middle of running a climactic battle or the campaign's big reveal.
Examples:
Another player was RP'ing an important scene where his character was finally able to bring his long-dead son back to life. This was basically his character's turn to wrap up a MAJOR backstory item and be in the spotlight. In the middle of their tearful reunion, it hit me. His age on his character sheet was around 30. The kid was 17 at the time of death. The kid has been dead somewhere between 5-10 years. That means the character was 3-8 years old when he had the kid. I bring the excellent RP to a screeching halt as I butt in with that observation. Even though it IS a valid question, that was obviously NOT the time or place to bring it up, and whoooooaaa man did I hear it from the rest of the group.
And in case anyone was wondering how to bring one of the games I am running to a screeching halt for anywhere from 5 seconds to 15 minutes, just point out a plot hole in my story. At first there is silence as I think about what was just said. Followed by me carpet-bombing the room with F-bombs. Then mumbling as I grasp for straws trying to come up with an at least somewhat believable filler for the hole. I am told this is quite funny to watch, though annoying cause it doesn't matter what was going on in the game before, it's on hold now. I try my best to make it into a plot hook, and sometimes tell the players "that is a good question, why not have the characters investigate it!".
I am slowly getting better at this on the player side. USUALLY I can wait till an appropriate time to point out the holes. Not always though, I still got more work to do...
The example where you were a player is somewhat reasonable. The DM one is not though.
The example where you were a player is somewhat reasonable. The DM one is not though.
Eh, the DM one is more an example of the reaction that the over-cautious DM experiences when a plot hole is pointed out. At least he tries to fix them - I have DMs who simply stare at you blankly
Of course, I am a Plot Hole Detective but I've yet to have a Player who subjected my games to that sort of analysis. The few times it does come up, the incongruity is something I planned so I get to say "why yes, that is weird" and then do Sinister DM Smirk. Not that they ever follow up on that "hole" mind you
Yeah, there are only two things that turn me into a Problem Player. One is plot holes the DM refuses to address
Spoiler
"Why and how did these kobold sheep-thieves construct a 10' x 10' solid steel plate, resetting pit trap on the other side of a 5' wide passage, in an abandoned lead mine?"
and the other is Unresponsive NPCs
Spoiler
Me: "M'lady, one of my party members - who you assigned to this quest - has refused to enter a potentially dangerous situation when it was required. Would you like to punish his cowardice, or shall I?" Noble: "You should work better together. Now stop bothering me." Me: "...m'lady, you do remember that I am your cousin and a noble myself? And that you assigned us all to this quest? And that I just pointed out that one of the people you have assigned to the quest is refusing to carry out Your Will?" Noble: "So?"
Yes, mr wizard, we know you need to sleep to regain spell slots. we know your spell slots are vital to us 'winning' the campaign. We know you had to use tem in the last fight. but for god's sake we've been given a 24 hour ultimatum and you've cast ray of frost and Hold Monster. we are not stopping for eight hours so you can regain those two spell...
What do you mean it's not realistic us having to hurry? Right, because every villain holding a city hostage ever will wait for the hero to show up and stop them. yes, 24 hours, that is time for you to rest, but what about the next battle? OK, we'll rest this time...
well, that was challenging. why did we stop you from casting? 7 hours left, you refuse to move without max spell slots. do the math... it's not fair on you? right, because it's fun for everyone else you spending eight hours of real time insisting you can put us at -1 hours game-time when you're the one who'll kick off about failing.
small argument. session ends.
Normally a pretty fun guy to play with, though we're forcing him back to his non-casters next campaign.
Yeah, there are only two things that turn me into a Problem Player. One is plot holes the DM refuses to address
Spoiler
"Why and how did these kobold sheep-thieves construct a 10' x 10' solid steel plate, resetting pit trap on the other side of a 5' wide passage, in an abandoned lead mine?"
and the other is Unresponsive NPCs
Spoiler
Me: "M'lady, one of my party members - who you assigned to this quest - has refused to enter a potentially dangerous situation when it was required. Would you like to punish his cowardice, or shall I?" Noble: "You should work better together. Now stop bothering me." Me: "...m'lady, you do remember that I am your cousin and a noble myself? And that you assigned us all to this quest? And that I just pointed out that one of the people you have assigned to the quest is refusing to carry out Your Will?" Noble: "So?"
The second one is definitely annoying. The first one doesn't even really qualify as a plothole, though - they're Kobolds. Craft(Trapmaking) is a class skill for them in any class. It's their idea of art. So of course they're going to have trapped any place you find them in - it's what they do.
The second one is definitely annoying. The first one doesn't even really qualify as a plothole, though - they're Kobolds. Craft(Trapmaking) is a class skill for them in any class. It's their idea of art. So of course they're going to have trapped any place you find them in - it's what they do.
The first one is not a plot hole for other reasons too, such as who says the kobolds built the mine? Maybe that's something to investigate....
To build on the Double Standard idea, the House-rules only work for me, not against me Guy.
DM houserules that limb loss can occur, usually in a flavorful description of a deathblow. So the player starts wanting to do called shots, and wants to turn every NPC in the game into the black knight from Monty Python. DM allows him some leeway, assuming the NPC isn't too important (Recurring presence).
Fast Forward to a dungeon with Large relief on the wall of a Lion's head. Search check reveals that the Lion's jaw is hinged, and can open. When opened, the party is swarmed by Crawling Claws (Animated hands) pouring out of the mouth. After killing all of them, the party sees a glimmering gem about 3 feet deep inside the mouth. Player doesn't want to wait for the party rogue to check it out because "We already triggered the trap. It was obviously the hands, and you'd just steal it!" Player reaches in to grab the gem and, REFLEX SAVE! "What?!? *rolls* 7." Player takes 1/10th of his health in damage and loses his hand to a guillotine trap.
Player then spends an hour crying about how limb loss isn't in the rules and it shouldn't even be possible for player characters. The rest of the party facepalms and the Rogue says "Get ready guys, I'm sure there's 1 more Crawling Claw now."
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“I will love the light for it shows me the way, yet I will endure the darkness because it shows me the stars.”
To build on the Double Standard idea, the House-rules only work for me, not against me Guy.
DM houserules that limb loss can occur, usually in a flavorful description of a deathblow. So the player starts wanting to do called shots, and wants to turn every NPC in the game into the black knight from Monty Python. DM allows him some leeway, assuming the NPC isn't too important (Recurring presence).
Fast Forward to a dungeon with Large relief on the wall of a Lion's head. Search check reveals that the Lion's jaw is hinged, and can open. When opened, the party is swarmed by Crawling Claws (Animated hands) pouring out of the mouth. After killing all of them, the party sees a glimmering gem about 3 feet deep inside the mouth. Player doesn't want to wait for the party rogue to check it out because "We already triggered the trap. It was obviously the hands, and you'd just steal it!" Player reaches in to grab the gem and, REFLEX SAVE! "What?!? *rolls* 7." Player takes 1/10th of his health in damage and loses his hand to a guillotine trap.
Player then spends an hour crying about how limb loss isn't in the rules and it shouldn't even be possible for player characters. The rest of the party facepalms and the Rogue says "Get ready guys, I'm sure there's 1 more Crawling Claw now."
The DM's favourite: steals the spotlight, not because they seek it, but because the DM trains it on them. This has been me in the past. I've had words with the DM, though, so we'll see how the next session goes.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Herman
I just found a dead cat in my quern. I guess someone was trying to make cat bread.
Props go out to kwarkpudding for the awesome avatar!
Guilty. I tend to put the spotlight on the people that step up to the roleplaying plate, and less on those just there to roll dice.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor
People assume that time is a strict progression of cause-to-effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff.
The second one is definitely annoying. The first one doesn't even really qualify as a plothole, though - they're Kobolds. Craft(Trapmaking) is a class skill for them in any class. It's their idea of art. So of course they're going to have trapped any place you find them in - it's what they do.
So... how do they get a solid 10' x 10' steel plate through a 5' x 5' opening?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
The first one is not a plot hole for other reasons too, such as who says the kobolds built the mine? Maybe that's something to investigate....
They didn't build the mine. It was an abandoned lead mine on human lands.
To build on the Double Standard idea, the House-rules only work for me, not against me Guy.
Player then spends an hour crying about how limb loss isn't in the rules and it shouldn't even be possible for player characters. The rest of the party facepalms and the Rogue says "Get ready guys, I'm sure there's 1 more Crawling Claw now."
That's an awesome quip. I would have given that Rogue like 50 xp or something for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter
So... how do they get a solid 10' x 10' steel plate through a 5' x 5' opening?
They didn't build the mine. It was an abandoned lead mine on human lands.
Also: who traps a lead mine?
Er, I meant they didn't necessarily build the trap. A 5'x5' opening is really small, maybe it used to be larger (or there's another way in).
And who knows re: trap, maybe lead used to be super rare (c.f. aluminum before 1860 was more valuable than gold), or maybe there was an interim resident using it as a base.
As I said, sounds like something to investigate, not a plot hole (such as the age of parent in relation to the child thing).
So... how do they get a solid 10' x 10' steel plate through a 5' x 5' opening?
They're kobolds. They probably widened the opening just to fit the plate in, then fixed it back to narrow. Or maybe they used some kobold trickery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter
Also: who traps a lead mine?
Kobolds. They trap their traps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
That's an awesome quip. I would have given that Rogue like 50 xp or something for it.
Eh, seems pretty obvious what the wall was doing, snapping off greedy adventurers' hands and animating them.
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Quotes:
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus
Also fixed the money issue by sacrificing a goat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by subject42
This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukitsu
I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
And then the kobolds trap the traps on their traps. A kobold silverware drawer is really just one very well-trapped fork.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
They're kobolds. They probably widened the opening just to fit the plate in, then fixed it back to narrow. Or maybe they used some kobold trickery.
Yeah, if they're capable of wielding solid steel with trickery then they should open a shop rather than running off with a flock of sheep
Of course, they couldn't have been too bright, since they placed the resetting mechanism on the near side of the trap. We could have dealt with it easier if we could have found some rocks in the mines, but apparently there weren't any
Yeah, if they're capable of wielding solid steel with trickery then they should open a shop rather than running off with a flock of sheep
Of course, they couldn't have been too bright, since they placed the resetting mechanism on the near side of the trap. We could have dealt with it easier if we could have found some rocks in the mines, but apparently there weren't any
Kobolds have a protectionist trade policy, and its really hard to grow stuff in caves, so to protect local kobold farmers they ban all food imports. But since its really hard to grow food underground they have to steal it. Also they have laws against weapon (trap) and perpetual motion machine exports. Duh.
And why would kobolds leave valuable rocks lying around when adventures could use them to break their traps?
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My deaths to wolves (or other evil night killers)
Spoiler
Spytrap III, Ultimate Kaos II, Monty Python, Twin Village, Invasion of the Zombies: Outbreak, Vampires III
Kobolds have a protectionist trade policy, and its really hard to grow stuff in caves, so to protect local kobold farmers they ban all food imports. But since its really hard to grow food underground they have to steal it. Also they have laws against weapon (trap) and perpetual motion machine exports. Duh.
And why would kobolds leave valuable rocks lying around when adventures could use them to break their traps?
To build on the Double Standard idea, the House-rules only work for me, not against me Guy.
Conversely, DMs who institute houserules that can only ever work against the player
Limb-loss houserules are a prime example of that. Congrats, you have found a way to effectively cut HP by 90%, because most PCs become unplayable if they can't hold a weapon.
Who cares if NPCs/monsters lose a limb the moment you kill them? They're dead anyway! Just for the splatter effect you don't need to make a rule. The DM has an endless supply of opponents, while the PCs only have one set of limbs over the levels 1-12.
(It becomes trivial as soon as your Cleric hits level 13.)
As so very often in D&D, certain potential game elements are absent for a reason. Limb loss is one of them. Just like Critical Fumbles.
__________________ So you know, university Physics D&D 3.5 Optimization is essentially three seven years of this discussion among like-minded enthusiasts. Done with supercomputers, access to the textsplatbook collections of five continents and thirty languages with thousands of classes, prestige classes, feats and spells.
On four hours sleep a night.
With no sex.
You're not going to find the loophole these guys missed.
DM's who tell you how they built monsters you're currently fighting then say he won't use half the features because they could totally kill you all easily if played with intelligence
If you aren't gonna use the features, why tell us this? Pretty much says "I make better monsters, you can only beat them because I decided you all suck and shall grant a small mercy!"
As so very often in D&D, certain potential game elements are absent for a reason. Limb loss is one of them. Just like Critical Fumbles.
Ah, but critical fumbles aren't entirely absent. They're presented as an alternate rule the DMG, IIRC.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor
People assume that time is a strict progression of cause-to-effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff.
DM's who tell you how they built monsters you're currently fighting then say he won't use half the features because they could totally kill you all easily if played with intelligence
If you aren't gonna use the features, why tell us this? Pretty much says "I make better monsters, you can only beat them because I decided you all suck and shall grant a small mercy!"
oh god.... I hate this one, Fighting a construct, who to be fair, was kicking our asses... then the DM springs up and says, good thing I didnt activate it's exploding tail spike attacK!!!
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Thanks to BRC for the Wizard Avi!
And the science gets done and You make a neat gun for the people who are still alive!
I Critique Homebrew Races, PM me with your suggestions!
Find. New. DM.
Give Rob a seat as a player and show him how it's done!
Alternatively, point him to one of the thousands of online how-to-DM guides.
I suggested that the next time I saw him, he said he had the books, he Dm'ed.
I think the problem is, he refuses to admit that good DM's don't play like him.
I wouldn't have had a problem if he actually roleplayed the old man and gave us the choice to do to the quest, (I know i wouldn't have really, but it's the illusion of freedom that counts right?)
It seemed like a really badly made RPG.
__________________ My extended signature.
Thanks to the wonderful Ceika for my signature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chained Birds
Just one of those guys vs girls things. Guys like giant, fighting robots that shoot lazerz out their eyes while girls like pretty jewelry that sparkle in the moonlight after having a romantic interlude with a charming gentleman.
Conversely, DMs who institute houserules that can only ever work against the player
Limb-loss houserules are a prime example of that. Congrats, you have found a way to effectively cut HP by 90%, because most PCs become unplayable if they can't hold a weapon.
Who cares if NPCs/monsters lose a limb the moment you kill them? They're dead anyway! Just for the splatter effect you don't need to make a rule. The DM has an endless supply of opponents, while the PCs only have one set of limbs over the levels 1-12.
(It becomes trivial as soon as your Cleric hits level 13.)
As so very often in D&D, certain potential game elements are absent for a reason. Limb loss is one of them. Just like Critical Fumbles.
I agree that certain game elements are missing for a reason, and that those reasons are usually very good. Limb loss is certainly a great example of that. I, however, love critical fumbles and always play with them. I think they add a real element of chaos and uncertainty, and I've had parties that really benefited from when I rolled a critical fumble on a nasty monster/encounter. I just make sure that the penalties for critical fumbles are not of the "last more than one encounter, which only matters to the PCs since the monsters are dead anyway" variety.
I, however, love critical fumbles and always play with them. I think they add a real element of chaos and uncertainty, and I've had parties that really benefited from when I rolled a critical fumble on a nasty monster/encounter.
Someone on these forums has a story of how he created this awesome boss monster and spent multiple sessions hyping it up and getting the PC's (and players) scared of it, then when the fight finally happens the monster goes first rolls 3 1's (or something similar, can't remember exactly) in a row and trips and breaks its neck. Yup, the epic hyped up monster broke its own neck in the opening move of the combat.
The Have It Your Way DM-All DM's have to give some ground to the players, but this guy takes it WAY too far: To the point of actively supporting and encouraging Chaotic Stupid behavior. Everything the PC's try always ends up getting the desired result, perfectly. There are no wrong decisions. You know that Chaotic Stupid character that normally gets killed off (or at least put in a bad enough situation to change the behavior) after 2 sessions or so? Yeah, imagine playing under a DM that rewarded the behavior.
Mr. Everything Must Operate Within RAW-This player demands the entire world function according to the letter of RAW, no exceptions. You want to move the plot along by having a villain assassinate a powerful ally of the PC's in one hit? You better be ready to provide detailed character sheets of both NPC's and justify the 1-hit kill according to RAW, cause this player will never drop it. And don't forget you have to roll the dice for the assassin too!
Reminds me of another one I'm guilty of actually:
Mr. Assume RAW Until Proven Otherwise-For everything that happens during the game, this guy looks for RAW justification. Not as bad as Mr. Everything Must Operate Within RAW because he accepts DM handwaves, but unless the DM admits to handwaving he assumes everything is operating by RAW. To use the assassination example above, if this guy can metagame that the ally had ~150HP, and the assassin takes him down in one hit, he immediately exclaims "DAMN!! That guy either did a Save or Die attack of some kind or just did over 150 damage* in one hit! Whatever it is, it's way out of our league!"
*before anyone brings up a 2000+ damage per hit build, 150 damage is a big deal in mid/low level low optimization games....
__________________
Been there, fought that, died horribly.
Something fun and flavorful to get your DM throwing books at you: Katana Chucker
Mr. Assume RAW Until Proven Otherwise-For everything that happens during the game, this guy looks for RAW justification. Not as bad as Mr. Everything Must Operate Within RAW because he accepts DM handwaves, but unless the DM admits to handwaving he assumes everything is operating by RAW. To use the assassination example above, if this guy can metagame that the ally had ~150HP, and the assassin takes him down in one hit, he immediately exclaims "DAMN!! That guy either did a Save or Die attack of some kind or just did over 150 damage* in one hit! Whatever it is, it's way out of our league!"
*before anyone brings up a 2000+ damage per hit build, 150 damage is a big deal in mid/low level low optimization games....
I'm guilty of that one, but to be fair I was pointing out to the DM that certain things weren't making any sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter
So... how do they get a solid 10' x 10' steel plate through a 5' x 5' opening?
Shrink Item
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Re: Habits that kill fun in a session.
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. In this specific case I was a mage-slayer melee build. The character was just very apathetic and lazy.
