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It never had any credit with me. This is just another example of too much enthusiasm for an exploit and not enough effort in checking for those annoying rules which explain why the scheme isn't actually so über. If someone can't point to a rule which states that some scheme is going to automatically deal damage*, I start looking for the rules which explain why it doesn't ─ and it usually doesn't take much digging to discover those rules.
* I mean real, unambiguous statements like this one, for coup de grace:
Given that most such exploits were TO, does it really change that much now that the trick requires a wizard and his hulking hurler minion?
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"It doesn't matter how much you struggle or strive,
You'll never get out of life alive,
So please kill yourself and save this land,
And your last mission is to spread my command,"
Slightly adapted quote from X-Fusion, Please Kill Yourself
These guys are certifiable moon-droppers. They successfully dropped it. They probably got the gloat out of their system a while ago. I might expect there to be some slightly more....intriguing plots afoot. Like endless waves of simulacra, or planar-trait traps, or even just an empty castle.
And should you miraculously defeat our endless legions? Fight your way through our minefields? Find us, without the ability to track teleports or planeshifts? Enjoy your hollow victory. It won't bring your planet back, it won't revive your family. Only magic can do that, the magic you lack, that we have. You have failed so utterly as to be beneath our notice. Go back to playing with swords and ships.
We may not be wizards, but there were wizards before us, and their technology exists for us even now. We spellthief'd your golems, we uncannily dodged your falling moon, and its magic now serves us. For all your magic, you underestimate human determination. And there's nothing you can do to stop us. We'll keep pushing forward no matter what. Who the hell do you think we are?
Also on topic because it's only fair: Allowing a reflex save for anything larger than your movement is absolutely silly. To be honest though, allowing the dropping of millions of tons of matter on individuals with no collateral damage is silly. The whole rule is ridiculous... I feel arguing this isn't too different from arguing why you should or should not allow war hulking hurler into a game.
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Look everyone this image is a link!
Last edited by Lord.Sorasen : 06-06-2011 at 04:05 PM.
Also on topic because it's only fair: Allowing a reflex save for anything larger than your movement is absolutely silly.
Those millions of tons of matter aren't going to remain cohesive; you only need to dodge a small part of that large collection of rubble to be unscathed ─ though in the middle of extraordinarily difficult terrain.
Quote:
Hampered Movement
Difficult terrain, obstacles, or poor visibility can hamper movement. When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.
If more than one condition applies, multiply together all additional costs that apply. (This is a specific exception to the normal rule for doubling)
In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don’t have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square).
It may, and in many fantasy novels it certainly is, but in D&D 3.5 it isn't, since unless by awesome you mean masterwork or some obscure PrC, martial characters cannot craft awesome weapons.
Oh! Oh! Oh!
Oriental Adventures Samurai! ...Except it's just one weapon. ...And you didn't really make it, you kinda just inherited it and are unlocking its secret powers that coincidentally just so happen to be what you want them to be. ...But you at least do that part all by yourself! ...By praying to your dead ancestors. Crud.
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"Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
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"Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."
Last edited by OracleofWuffing : 06-06-2011 at 04:26 PM.
I am regretting that I tried to be clever when I titled this thread. I was less concerned about the specifics of planetary bodies or the Uncanny Dodge mechanic as I was about the simpler notion that (from a D&D mechanics standpoint) large falling objects are not the "autowin" button that I have seen discussed in multiple other threads (including the recent Seraphim one).
Oriental Adventures Samurai! ...Except it's just one weapon. ...And you didn't really make it, you kinda just inherited it and are unlocking its secret powers that coincidentally just so happen to be what you want them to be. ...But you at least do that part all by yourself!
Note that Complete Warrior also uses the DC 15 thing, in this case to dodge an arrow volley. So DC 15 is the generic "stuff is falling towards your square, dodge it" save.
I've chewed through most of Mieville's stuff except Kraken. Got burned on The City and The City so I gave it a rest for a bit. Any other good ones?
I just finished The Lies of Locke Lamora && Red Seas Under Red Skies, as well as the Tiffany Aching series by Pratchett.
Kraken is pretty good. I'd even call it Mieville getting back to form. Unfortunately most of my reading lately has been either scifi of spy stuff, so I'm a little short on current suggestions. Ooh, there's stuff most people seem to have not read-the Incarnations of Immortality series, by Piers Anthony. Most of his stuff... well, it gets OLD. IoI, though, it's about people becoming Death, Time, War, etc. Everyone I've gotten to read the first book has had to go read the rest.
You're saying you can uncannily dodge things even when you can't move?
As sreservoir already pointed out, the ability to not take damage from stuff falling on you (with a Reflex save) is evasion, not uncanny dodge. (Uncanny dodge applies when you're flat-footed or the attacker is invisible; neither of these match this massive falling object scenario.) You pretty much only lose the ability to make a Reflex save when you're dead, and you can still evade things as long as you're not helpless. Being able to move an inch is as good as being able to move a mile for evasion. (There's an element of luck involved; maybe you exhaled at just the right moment and avoided having your ribcage sheared off by just that tiny fraction of displacement.)
Those millions of tons of matter aren't going to remain cohesive; you only need to dodge a small part of that large collection of rubble to be unscathed ─ though in the middle of extraordinarily difficult terrain.
1) make the moon cubic (hey, for a high level wizard, should be doable)
2) drop it on an enemy, flat side first
3) the surface is even, the only logical way to avoid it is moving hundreds or thousands of miles away
4) the enemy movement speed is less than 'a million feet per round'
5) enemy is a lvl 1 commoner, rolls a 16 on their reflex save
6) no one considers suffocation or crushing, round after round
7) ???
8) profit!
Um... yeah.
Edit: as to why a wizard would go through the trouble of sculpting the entire moon and propelling it in order to kill a lvl 1 commoner, rather than using say, a fireball... if you CAN massively alter reality at will, why WOULDN'T you?
As sreservoir already pointed out, the ability to not take damage from stuff falling on you (with a Reflex save) is evasion, not uncanny dodge.
Of course. I was more referencing the thread title than the actual ability.
As to the rest of it, I agree in theory, but lets look at an example:
In the Tomb of Horrors, there is a trap which has the ceiling fall on a character. The ceiling is solid stone, and exactly the same dimensions as the room it drops on.
How does a character evade that? I mean, I know the crunch supports this type of thing, but I'm curious as to how it gets justified in fluff.
DM: That's it! Rocks fall, everyone dies!
PC1: I have improved evasion
PC2: Natural twenty on the reflex save!
PC3: My reflex save is +15, and I didn't roll a one, so I'm good.
1) make the moon cubic (hey, for a high level wizard, should be doable)
2) drop it on an enemy, flat side first
3) the surface is even, the only logical way to avoid it is moving hundreds or thousands of miles away
4) the enemy movement speed is less than 'a million feet per round'
5) enemy is a lvl 1 commoner, rolls a 16 on their reflex save
6) no one considers suffocation or crushing, round after round
7) ???
8) profit!
Um... yeah.
For the object to fall to the ground it must displace all the air that was underneath ....so maybe that push of air allows - even forces sometimes - the target to move fast enough.
Also you want the fallen-to surface to be perfectly flat. Unlike random terrain.
So you want a vacuum. Note that some other DnD mechanics are based on atmosphere, such as winged flight, terminal velocity, nonmagical fire, speaking and verbal components, etc.
In the Tomb of Horrors, there is a trap which has the ceiling fall on a character. The ceiling is solid stone, and exactly the same dimensions as the room it drops on.
How does a character evade that? I mean, I know the crunch supports this type of thing, but I'm curious as to how it gets justified in fluff.
Isn't that what DMs get paid the big bucks for? A stone ceiling the same size as the room is pretty much guaranteed to get hung up as it falls; once a slight bit of greater friction on one wall slows down the descent on that side the falling ceiling will start to tilt, and as it tilts it will gain increasing friction on the high side. A tilted ceiling of any thickness will have greater width than in its non-tilted state so at best only one edge will reach the floor; the whole thing is actually more likely to get wedged after dropping partway. Avoiding damage from that sort of poorly-designed trap is really easy.
So: the dramatic fluff is that the ceiling tilts just a bit as it falls, and the character rolled in the right direction to be under the high side, squeezed but unharmed.
In the Tomb of Horrors, there is a trap which has the ceiling fall on a character. The ceiling is solid stone, and exactly the same dimensions as the room it drops on.
How does a character evade that? I mean, I know the crunch supports this type of thing, but I'm curious as to how it gets justified in fluff.
Well, you know how annoying it gets when you add in a third dimension to PnP combat, and you have to stop every round or so to calculate a hypotenuse? It's kinda like that, but nobody who's on the dodging end of things ever invests in the skill ranks needed to know how it works, they're just satisfied that it works.
Alternatively, a Wizard did it.
Alternatively alternatively, your question assumes that you will survive the Tomb of Horrors.
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"Okay, so I'm going to quick draw and dual wield these one-pound caltrops as improvised weapons..."
---
"Oh, hey, look! Blue Eyes Black Lotus!" "Wait what, do you sacrifice a mana to the... Does it like, summon a... What would that card even do!?" "Oh, it's got a four-energy attack. Completely unviable in actual play, so don't worry about it."
We may not be wizards, but there were wizards before us, and their technology exists for us even now. We spellthief'd your golems, we uncannily dodged your falling moon, and its magic now serves us. For all your magic, you underestimate human determination. And there's nothing you can do to stop us. We'll keep pushing forward no matter what. Who the hell do you think we are?
Rats and vermin. Who do I think I am? An equally determined and equally angry human? Even if I can't remember why I dropped the moon on you, I probably had a reason, right? No one would do something like that out of boredom. I mean, no one else. Okay, so maybe I'm not exactly determined, but I am a human, and I am a wizard. And I have a lot of wizard friends.
Determined. Angry. And notably, vastly more powerful. Yesterday, the moon, tomorrow, a nearby planet. Today? Today? Sorbet.
For the object to fall to the ground it must displace all the air that was underneath ....so maybe that push of air allows - even forces sometimes - the target to move fast enough.
Also you want the fallen-to surface to be perfectly flat. Unlike random terrain.
So you want a vacuum. Note that some other DnD mechanics are based on atmosphere, such as winged flight, terminal velocity, speaking and verbal components, etc.
Make the target a skeleton. Put it on a cubic asteroid, 10mi to a side, out in deep space, well away from any other objects. Throw another cubic asteroid, same specs, at it, flat side to flat side. How, exactly, is a skeleton going to make that Ref slave?
You want a suitably complete hypothetical, I can give it to you, but the specific 'well it was pushed by the wind!' bits aren't the problem with the logic of 'any falling object has a 15 Ref save, regardless of circumstances.'
Isn't that what DMs get paid the big bucks for? A stone ceiling the same size as the room is pretty much guaranteed to get hung up as it falls; once a slight bit of greater friction on one wall slows down the descent on that side the falling ceiling will start to tilt, and as it tilts it will gain increasing friction on the high side. A tilted ceiling of any thickness will have greater width than in its non-tilted state so at best only one edge will reach the floor; the whole thing is actually more likely to get wedged after dropping partway. Avoiding damage from that sort of poorly-designed trap is really easy.
So: the dramatic fluff is that the ceiling tilts just a bit as it falls, and the character rolled in the right direction to be under the high side, squeezed but unharmed.
This. This is how to DM. Think of fluff to fit the rules.
If you let fluff dictate the rules:
-brace for endless discussions over physics, medieval weaponry, and emergency medicine. Which likely no one involved is actually an experience in.
-brace for every Search check to be 'roleplayed, not rollplayed' in excruciating detail ('say, how many bricks are in this section of wall?'), every Diplomacy check to involve a nauseating number of sugary adjectives, every PC to never ever roleplay any weaknesses, etc.
I must say, I am consistently delighted with the generally excellent tastes of my fellow forumites. Unfortunately, the fact that I know your tastes are excellent is derived from the fact that I've read most of these books. I did particularly delight in the Black Company, and much recommend his other works as well. Also, if you'ven't read anything by Jack Vance, he's actually really rather quite good.
Make the target a skeleton. Put it on a cubic asteroid, 10mi to a side, out in deep space, well away from any other objects. Throw another cubic asteroid, same specs, at it, flat side to flat side. How, exactly, is a skeleton going to make that Ref slave?
You don't have enough skill to make "flat side to flat side" perfect along 10 miles of surface with a thrown object. The cubes are going to bounce off each other, likely breaking up if the collision occurs at a speed even close to a cube's miniscule escape velocity. The skeleton doesn't need much luck to avoid damage.
You don't have enough skill to make "flat side to flat side" perfect along 10 miles of surface with a thrown object. The cubes are going to bounce off each other, likely breaking up if the collision occurs at a speed even close to a cube's miniscule escape velocity. The skeleton doesn't need much luck to avoid damage.
That's debatable, actually.... It's just a matter of getting your CL high enough for telekinesis and having an arbitrarily high skill check for knowledge engineering, isn't it?
Make the target a skeleton. Put it on a cubic asteroid, 10mi to a side, out in deep space, well away from any other objects. Throw another cubic asteroid, same specs, at it, flat side to flat side. How, exactly, is a skeleton going to make that Ref slave?
You want a suitably complete hypothetical, I can give it to you, but the specific 'well it was pushed by the wind!' bits aren't the problem with the logic of 'any falling object has a 15 Ref save, regardless of circumstances.'
Obviously I was aware of such hypotheticals, as my prior post also suggested using 2 perfectly flat surfaces in a vacuum.
DnD uses discrete distances and times (and event probailities, usually out of 20) to portray a continuous world. Of course it can be 'unrealistic'.
-why should perfect smoothness and parallel alignment be assumed to be able to been crafted and maintained? What's the creation process? Is there a craft DC for such smoothness, setting of angles, etc.?
-why is it worth the complexity cost of a better rule subsystem for large moving bodies? How often does this come up at your table?
-as a DM you are welcome to individualize trap DCs. Or did you have a suggested formula as a function of surface sizes, flatness, relative angle, etc?
-if ultrarealism is so important, are 6 second rounds and the 'discretized' positions of a falling body (or endangered creature) a problem.
That's debatable, actually.... It's just a matter of getting your CL high enough for telekinesis and having an arbitrarily high skill check for knowledge engineering, isn't it?
Knowledge tells you how things work, but by itself doesn't give you any ability to manipulate things. (Certain feats and class abilities leverage Knowledge checks into benefits beyond just knowing things.) No, for fine control of Telekinesis you need a different skill: Sleight of Hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telekinesis
An object can be telekinetically manipulated as if with one hand.
Knowledge tells you how things work, but by itself doesn't give you any ability to manipulate things. (Certain feats and class abilities leverage Knowledge checks into benefits beyond just knowing things.) No, for fine control of Telekinesis you need a different skill: Sleight of Hand.
OH! So, think we can jimmy together a formula for the DC? :)
I think somewhere in the DMG (might be another book or even one of the Rules of the Game-articles; been a long time, could find it with a quick scan) there is a clause that the DM should adjudicate when Evasion (or Reflex-save for that matter) doesn't work/isn't possible. A closed, smooth-walled room with no objects entirely filled by a Fireball is given as an example of a situation where the DM should revoke the rights to a Reflex-save. Again, though, I don't remember where I read that (I remember it was in some DMing advice opus but that's it; it's been aeons since I read the core books cover to cover) so I'm not sure where it is.
There's also a clause (and of this I'm sure) in e.g. wall crush traps (DMG page 70) that state "When the entire dungeon wall moves to crush you, your quick reflexes won’t help, since the wall can’t possibly miss. A trap with this feature has neither an attack bonus nor a saving throw to avoid, but it does have an onset delay (see below)." and those allow no Reflex-saves, so there's precedent for big enough things being undodgeable.
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Re: Uncannily Dodging the Moon
A stone ceiling the same size as the room is pretty much guaranteed to get hung up as it falls; once a slight bit of greater friction on one wall slows down the descent on that side the falling ceiling will start to tilt, and as it tilts it will gain increasing friction on the high side. A tilted ceiling of any thickness will have greater width than in its non-tilted state so at best only one edge will reach the floor; the whole thing is actually more likely to get wedged after dropping partway. Avoiding damage from that sort of poorly-designed trap is really easy.
