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Everything is power, my boy. Power means to be feared. Power means to run faster than the wind, strike stronger than the hurricane, inspire more fear than an executioner, and bend reality to your will as a god would. There is not a single facet of it, but it is the singular force driving the world. Now go polish my armor, you lazy squire! - Danz Elrun, Sire
Sires are seekers of power, be it in strength, wealth, manpower, or the arcane forces. Their life goals are often huge undertakings, which they embrace as challenges to themselves.
Adventuring: Sires adventure to train in various arts, to gain wealth, and to make their name well known. As such, they will turn down quests that are too insignificant, but when it comes to matters of importance, they may accept various and different tasks, from ridding the world of a destructive force, to assassinating kings for other's benefit.
Stats: The most important stats for a Sire are Strength and Intellect, as he is a mostly melee combatant that uses arcane spellcasting. Also, Intellect helps him gain more skill points, which is useful given the large array of class skills available to a Sire. Also, dump Dexterity. NOW!
Race: Due to their nonchalant and self-important character, coupled by the very long lives which allow them to learn hundreds of things, Zonquraths, Elves and Drows are the most likely to become Sires. There are, however, a significant amount of them in the nobility of humans, dwarves, and other races such as hobgoblins.
Hit Die: d10
Skill Points per level: 4+int mod, x4 at first level
Spellcasting, Follow up Strike (1/day), Light Armor Spellcasting, Sire Feat
3
-
-
-
11
+11/6/1
+7
+3
+7
Phase
4
-
-
-
12
+12/7/2
+8
+4
+8
Greater Arcane Discharge
5
3
-
-
13
+13/8/3
+8
+4
+8
Strong Mage
6
4
-
-
14
+14/9/4
+9
+4
+9
Sire Feat, Hopelesness (1/encounter)
6
5
3
-
15
+15/10/5
+9
+5
+9
Follow Up Strike (1/encounter)
6
6
4
-
16
+16/11/6/1
+10
+5
+10
Arcane Recall
6
6
5
3
17
+17/12/7/2
+10
+5
+10
Bonus Feat
6
6
6
4
18
+18/13/8/3
+11
+6
+11
Sire Feat
6
6
6
5
19
+19/14/9/4
+11
+6
+11
Hopelesness (passive)
6
6
6
6
20
+20/15/10/5
+12
+6
+12
Follow up Strike (at will), Lordship
6
6
6
6
Proficiencies: A Sire is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor, but not shields.
Class Features
Bonus Feat: At levels 1, 2, 5, 6 and 17 a Sire may take a feat from the Fighter Bonus Feat list. He must still meet all the feat's prerequisites.
Vengeful Fire (Sp/Ex): A Sire may use this skill as either an Extraordinary or a Spell-like ability as is more beneficial to him. This ability can be used at will.
This is considered a two-step ability. The first step is declaring that you are enchanting your normal melee attack with this ability (free action). If the normal attack doesn't hit, neither does this ability. If the normal attack hits, the target is allowed a Will save against a DC equal to 15+half class level+int modifier. If the Will succeeds, nothing happens, and he takes normal damage from the attack. If the Will fails, the target will be affected by Vengeful Fire until the end of the encounter. Doesn't stack.
If an opponent affected by Vengeful Fire deals damage to you, Vengeful Fire ends, and he takes untyped unavoidable (ignores DR) lethal damage equal to the damage he took when Vengeful Fire was applied to him.
Arcane Discharge (Sp): A Sire has an inherently arcane soul, and this allows him to discharge waves of pure arcane energy. Every day, he must keep track of this ability - it is always in value equal to his total base hp, doesn't grow, and doesn't normally regenerate gradually. Instead, it refills completely after an 8 hour sleep. Regard this value as dp.
In its basic form, at level 4, the Arcane Discharge is used as such: as a Standard Action Touch Attack with no save, the Sire may deal electric damage to a target equal to dp spent/2 (he may spend any amount of dp he wants), this damage can't be 0. Additionally, for every 1/3rd of his dp that the Sire spends, the affected target loses 1 of his lowest spell slots.
At level 8, the Arcane Discharge is used as such: as a Swift Action Touch Attack with no save, the Sire may deal electric damage to a target equal to dp spent/2, this damage can't be 0. Additionally, for every 1/3th of his dp that the Sire spends, the affected target loses 2 of his lowest spell slots.
At level 12, the Arcane Discharge is used as such: declare you are enchanting a melee attack with this ability as a free action. The Sire deals untyped damage to a target equal to dp spent/2, this damage can't be 0. Additionally, for every 1/3rd of his dp that the Sire spends, the affected target loses 4 of his lowest spell slots.
Example of Arcane Discharge being used: say you are a Level 10 Sire with 75 hp. You have 75 dp. You can, as a swift action, deal any amount of damage to a target from 1 to 75/2 (37). If you deal 25/2-49/2 (12-24) damage, he loses 2 spells. If you deal 50/2-73/2 (25-36) damage, he loses 4 spells. If you deal 75/2 (37) damage, he loses 6 spells.
Guile Warrior (Ex): A Sire uses his higher intellect in battle. He may add half his int modifier to attack rolls, and his full int modifier to AC and Reflex Saves. This ability is capped at 6.
Hopelessness (Ex/Sp): A Sire, using his viciousness and aggressiveness, can make his targets lose all hope.
He learns this ability at 9th level, and changes the way he uses it (from once per day to once per encounter, to passive) at levels 14 and 19. Also, every time he learns this ability (including the first time), it becomes 1 step easier to land critical hits (from 20 to 19-20, from 19-20 to 18-20 etc).
Whenever a Sire threatens a critical with a melee weapon, he can declare using this ability as a free action. Instead of rolling for attack again, the critical instantly succeeds. Also, from that point on, all of the Sire's melee attacks used against the target for the duration of the encounter will deal criticals. This is a mind-dependent* ability.
*A mind-dependent ability can only be used on opponents that have an Int score (so not on mindless undead, oozes, plants, constructs, and swarms), but is not a mind-affecting ability, so creatures immune to mind-affecting abilities are still affected normally by it.
Spellcasting
Starting from level 10, the Sire sees that pure physical might and a few tricks is not enough to ensure victory, and therefore gains the ability to cast spells.
Sire spellcasting is Arcane and Intellect Based. Sires need to have an Int equal to 10+spell level or higher in order to cast a spell, but may learn a spell regardless of whether they can use it or not. A Sire does not need a spellbook to keep track of his spells, instead, he learns them pretty much like a Sorcerer, with one exception: he has no upper limit as to how many spells he can learn. The Spellcaster Level of a Sire is calculated this way: he gains half a level from 1 to 10, and a full level from 11 to 20 (so, for instance, a 10 level Sire has a spellcasting level of 5, while a 20 level Sire has a spellcasting level of 15). Sire spell slots recover normally, after 8 hours of sleep. Always on the hunt for true power, Sires can only learn spells that have a minimum level of 5, and a maximum level of 8. Also, due to the destructive nature of their magic, they have some limitations on it:
Simplicity: The scope of a Sire's use of magic is rather limited. As such, he is restricted to the Evocation and Enchantment schools of magic. Focus: A Sire can't use spells that take more than a full round action to cast. Spells that simply need to be maintained for several rounds, but are cast instantaneously, do not count. Consistency: The power source of a Sire's casting is his own soul. As such, his magic rapidly diminishes in the outside world. The maximum range of all Sire's spells is reduced to 25 feet, regardless of ANY effects that would increase it. Exception is the Strained Soul feat. Also, if a Sire uses an AoE spell, the radius is reduced to 25 feet, and the Sire must be no farther than 25 feet from the center of the area.
When they take spellcasting, Sires can choose 1 of the Feats below. They can then choose 1 more of those Feats at level 18 and another 1 every 5 levels after 20.
Spoiler
Inspired Silent Spell Prerequisites: Sire with spellcasting Benefits: A Sire can use any spell ignoring verbal components. The spell slot required for the level does not change in any way.
Of My Own Prerequisites: Sire with spellcasting Benefits: A Sire has infinite spell resistance to spells cast by himself.
Alternate Purpose Prerequisites: Sire with spellcasting Benefits: A Sire can, with effort, learn slightly more specialized and complex spells. Every time he takes this feat, he may learn 2 spells from the Sor/Wiz spell list that don't belong to Evocation nor Enchantment. Those spells still count towards the Sire's spells per day, and must still have a level between 5 and 8.
The Face of True Power Prerequisites: Sire with spellcasting Benefits: A Sire can, with effort, learn 1 Level 9 spell and gain 1 Level 9 spell slot. He must still be intelligent enough to use it (19), and he must choose it from the Evocation or Enchantment schools of magic. This feat CAN'T be taken multiple times, and even if taken at level 10, it can't be used until level 16.
Strained Soul Prerequisites: Sire with spellcasting Benefits: A Sire can force himself to maintain a spell that is very far from his body. He may use spells and his Phase ability up to a maximum distance of 50 feet, but every time he casts a spell that travels more than 25 feet, he takes 10 unhealable damage that can only be removed by a 4 hour sleep.
Spellslinging Elegance Prerequisites: Sire with spellcasting Benefits: A Sire juggles with his spells, being able to organize perfect combos between them and his melee attacks. Once per encounter per number of times he took this feat, a Sire can land a melee hit taking a -4 penalty to the attack roll and damage, and use a spell on him at the same time.
Residual Arcana Prerequisites: Sire with spellcasting Benefits: A Sire taking this feat recalls some of the energy used in his spellcasting. When he uses a spell, he gains dp equal to twice the spell's level.
Vicious Fire Prerequisites: Sire with spellcasting Benefits: The sire learns to empower his Vengeful Fire ability. Thus, an opponent with Vengeful Fire active on him is 2 steps easier to land a critical against for the Sire (from 18-20 to 16-20 etc), and the Sire gains a +4 circumstance bonus for Intimidate attempts against him.
Spell Memory Prerequisites: Sire with spellcasting Benefits: Once per day, a Sire may reduce his dp to 0 to cast the spell that he casted the previous turn again.
Light Armor Spellcasting: A Sire incurs no arcane spell failure for casting in Light Armor.
Follow Up Strike: A Sire is a master of both spellcasting and normal battle, and he has the techniques to prove it.
The turn he chooses to use this ability, he may either use a melee attack as a swift action or a spell (that normally takes a standard action) as a swift action.
If he uses a melee attack: if the attack roll succeeds and the attack deals damage, the Sire is allowed to use a spell on the target without allowing a Save against it regardless of the spell's text. If he uses a spell: if the spell hits successfully, the Sire is allowed to land a melee attack on the target without rolling for attack - it is a guaranteed hit. He must still roll to see if he scored a critical.
Strong Mage (Ex): The physical prowess of the Sire makes him more resistant to arcane strain and tougher. He may add half his Str modifier to the DC of his spells (and damage if int modifier is also normally added), and his full Str modifier to AC and Reflex Saves. This is capped at 6.
Arcane Recall (Su): Once per day, a Sire may, as a 1 minute action, regain:
- an 8th level spell slot
or
- two 5th level spell slots
or
- a 6th or 7th level spell slot and 1/3 his dp
or
- a 5th level spell slot and 2/3 his dp
or
- his entire dp
Phase (Ex): At level 11, a Sire's body is so much infused with power that he can simply phase through space. This ability can be used once per encounter and 5 times per day outside of encounters. It works exactly like Greater Teleport, with the following differences:
- It is not treated as a spell, and can be used in, into, through and out of antimagic fields
- It has nothing to do with the Astral Plane
- It has a maximum range of 25 feet, which cannot be increased
- The destination must be visible for the Sire
- It is treated as a Move action
Lordship (Su): At level 20, the Sire transcends his wordly limitations. His Race changes to Zonqurath, if it wasn't already, treating LA as +0. He can completely resist 1 spell used against him once per day, he no longer falls unconscious due to having a hp of 0 or less (he still dies at -10) and no longer dies from massive damage, he becomes immune to the effects of all spells in the Evocation school, and Phase becomes a free action which can be used only once per turn.
Last edited by Phosphate : 06-14-2011 at 01:15 AM.
Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Sire (smug dude, ain't ya)
depends what they do elsewhere, if that's the majority of the useful abilities, it may not be a bad idea...
We haven't seen a spell list yet either, may be limited list (I'd hope so honestly!)
Unsure about the many bonus feats though...
__________________
All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to sail her by.
Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Sire (smug dude, ain't ya)
I think I see what's going on here, and, if it's what I think it is, it's a very interesting idea.
The Sire appears to start out mundane enough, but with a taste of arcane power, and then, taking the maxim that mundane becomes obsolete at mid-level to heart, the Sire picks up honest-to-god spellcasting, powerful spellcasting to boot, and shifts gears, using the more powerful spells at his disposal to solve most problems supplemented by his earlier gained martial prowess which continues to slightly improve as he gains levels.
Of course... I could be... way off. In any case, I'll be watching this as it develops.
Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Sire (smug dude, ain't ya)
That is what it appears to be isn't it? Could be very interesting, more so due to the strong chassis, and I'm liking the 1/day-1/encounter-at will progression too, makes a damned sight more sense than arbitrary numbers.
Still, wanna be careful mixing a tough combat build up with 5th-8th level spells, you could easily hit tier 1 with this depending on the spells available, and judging by the spells/day numbers I'm guessing it's spontaneous (but I could be wrong, uses Int for spells after all). I REALLY hope there's a sensible limited list, perhaps 2 or 3 schools + universals would be suitable... too much conjecture at this stage though.
__________________
All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to sail her by.
Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Sire (smug dude, ain't ya)
Before you riot, to say a few things in advance:
1. All bonus feats must be from the fighter list.
2. This class is heavily specialized on melee damage. I will restrict spellcasting as to ensure this.
3. This is intended as Tier 2 anyway.
Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Sire (smug dude, ain't ya)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phosphate
Ok, class features added.
Should I put in a capstone?
Always put in a capstone, my friend. Always.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilingsworth
Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Sire (smug dude, ain't ya)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phosphate
I want to know what you guys think about his power so far, so as to know how strong to make the capstone.
Well, it's not really the question. Your class is already strong enough as it is, and by that, I mean that it is possibly even more broken than the infamous Lightning Warrior from level 12 to 17. It does need a capstone, but it also needs some serious nerfs.
Here's the way I see it :
o The spellcasting should be entirely revamped, rather than just nerfed. I really like the idea of switching from a physical-oriented approach to a more magic-focused one as the character advances in the class, but I'm sure there are more suitable ways to do this than by just granting a restricted yet still "conventional" spellcasting progression from level 10 on. You could take the Factotum's Arcane dilettante class feature as an example, though you're going for something with more power, but less flexibility, and that comes much later in the progression.
o I don't see Sires as the type of character that intends to get hit, so d12 hit dice are definitely out of the question. I would lean towards a d8 HD myself, since that's what light-armored opportunistic fighters as well as gishes of all sorts tend to have.
o Strong Mage is... an inherently bad idea. Strength is way too easy to pump up compared to Intelligence, or any other ability for that matter. Maybe you could give a capped bonus to DC and/or CL against enemies with a weaker Strength score instead.
o There are many things wrong with Hopelessness, and I would suggest to scrap it entirely.
o Phase comes a bit late for a rough Dimensional door equivalent. It is something I would expect to see before the "spellcasting singularity".
o Casting and attacking at the same time is the Duskblade's shtick. You can work well as a gish without necessarily having this kind of ability. Your class doesn't need it, believe me.
o For a class that is expected to be followed all the way through level 20, the Sire sorely lacks customizability. All the "minor" powers like Vengeful Fire, Arcane Discharge or Phase could be available as options, along with other abilities in the same vein - with the same progression of per day / per encounter / at will, which by the way was a pretty good idea. Also, high-level characters could have the possibility to choose their "path to power" between arcane magic (different schools?), divine magic (think Ur-Priest), psionic manifesting, and others.
o The capstone. You made it so that the main source of power of your class from level 10 on stops progressing at very high level, before it could reach its full potential (i.e level 9 and epic spells). It is an excellent idea, both in terms of flavor and as a balance measure towards full spellcasters, but it also means you'll have to find a replacement to it - something that would allow the Sire to stay relevant at epic levels, or at least could be developed into something that does.
Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Sire (smug dude, ain't ya)
Put the automatic skill focus for intimidate on the table for level 1, it could get lost and unnoticed otherwise.
Bonus feat says level 17, should be 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phosphate
DC equal to 15+your Sire level/2+int modifier
Just say half class level dude, much clearer. I like vengeful fire though, very nice idea...untyped & unavoidable eh? You may wish to clarify unavoidable, would DR count?
Give an example for arcane discharge, I think I get it but the description is foggy as it stands.
Guile speaks for itself, nice and simple.
Really like hopelessness, now I see why it was so limited on the table! Mind-dependant makes much sense, otherwise you'd be screwed by anything immune to mind affecting or criticals, which is quite a bit...you're still limited but not so badly that it's pointless or crippling.
This...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phosphate
The maximum range of all Sire's spells is reduced to 25 feet, regardless of ANY effects that would increase it.
...is contradicted moments later by this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phosphate
Strained Soul Prerequisites: Sire with spellcasting Benefits: A Sire can force himself to maintain a spell that is very far from his body. He may use spells and his Phase ability up to a maximum distance of 50 feet, but every time he casts a spell that travels more than 25 feet, he takes 10 unhealable damage that can only be removed by a 4 hour sleep.
Follow up strike is nice too, much like the beguiler's cloaked casting/surprise casting but for bashy melee instead of sneaky stuff.
Strong mage needs rewording.
Arcane recall is a nice touch.
Phase is sweet, but ultimately next to pointless due to the range, surely the magic isn't going anywhere, it's targetted on you and not your destination after all....
NEEDS CAPSTONE!!
__________________
All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to sail her by.
Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Sire (smug dude, ain't ya)
Ok, changed some major stuff.
@Murdin:
1. I LOVE follow up. It is my favorite skill. Sorry, can't change it.
2. This class is not customizable because it's not meant to be. It has a clear role: damage damage damage kill kill kill. If somebody doesn't want to do only that he can choose another class.
Anyway, still struggling with the capstones, I have no good ideas for it.
Also, as a note:
Phase was intended as a hit and run. As it is a Move action, you can still hit your enemy plenty, the run away.
Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Sire (smug dude, ain't ya)
All classes should be customizable.
This is the Golden Rule, the First Commandment, the Word of God on class-based homebrew. If you're making a base class, there must be something that makes Class Member A different from Class Member B and both from Class Member C (at a bare minimum) besides their feat and weapon choices. 3.5 is all about variety.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilingsworth
Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Sire (smug dude, ain't ya)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phosphate
Hence the 6 fighter feats and the 5 unique Sire feats this class has access to!
Plus, any spellcasting class can customize by virtue of the spells it learns.
I did specifically mention feat choices, friend - why do you think fighters are terrible? And the Sire's spell-list restrictions mean one's spell list is essentially going to be like another's - and, additionally, almost all full casters take PrCs in order to gain variety, relying on more than just their spell choices.
I like the raw concept behind your class, friend - it just needs some polishing in the 'execution' department and part of that is options.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilingsworth
Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Sire (smug dude, ain't ya)
I don't think fighters are horrible. I chose restricting it to fighter feats to reduce the power of the class somewhat. And the unique Sire feats are indeed very different from each other and suggest strongly different progressions.
What do you suggest to add more options? Without reducing the power of the class? My friend :D.
Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Sire (smug dude, ain't ya)
Something like skill tricks at every (3rd?) level or so, mix up skill uses in combat a bit, perhaps with certain tactical choices for spells and melee in the same round...will try and come up with some ideas for you...
__________________
All I ask is a tall ship, and a star to sail her by.
Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Sire (smug dude, ain't ya)
How does the Sire learn spells?
The theoretical ability to cast spontaneously from the entire schools of Evocation and Enchantment is rather strong, so you might want to follow the sorcerer route and give them a constrained number of spells.
Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Sire (smug dude, ain't ya)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phosphate
@Glim: It does learn spells like a sorcerer, but with no cap. To be honest...I don't think they're too strong, considering:
1. Evocation is not very varied.
2. Enchantment is the worst school.
Ok. How do they learn spells? Sorcerers simply know their spells known, and gain more as they level. Do you mean to say that they know all Evocation and Enchantment sorc/wiz spells? Also, are the spells cast spontaneously (like a sorcerer) or are they prepared (like a wizard)?
Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Sire (smug dude, ain't ya)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phosphate
1. Evocation is not very varied.
But it does have some power, and it can throw dice down pretty well; it might be weaker in comparison to Conjuration, but it's still a damn sight better than, say, Necromancy.
Quote:
2. Enchantment is the worst school.
There can only be one word said to this: lolwut?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilingsworth
Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Sire (smug dude, ain't ya)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth
But it does have some power, and it can throw dice down pretty well; it might be weaker in comparison to Conjuration, but it's still a damn sight better than, say, Necromancy.
I didn't say it's not damn powerful. I said it's not multifunctional.
Quote:
There can only be one word said to this: lolwut?
Wut? Almost everything at high levels is mind-affecting immune.
Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Sire (smug dude, ain't ya)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimbur
Ok. How do they learn spells? Sorcerers simply know their spells known, and gain more as they level. Do you mean to say that they know all Evocation and Enchantment sorc/wiz spells? Also, are the spells cast spontaneously (like a sorcerer) or are they prepared (like a wizard)?
They know all level 5-8 Evocation and Enchantment spells as long as 10+spell level is lower than intellect applies. And it is spontaneous. Honestly, I thought that was explained in the class.
Re: [3.5 Base Class] The Sire (smug dude, ain't ya)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phosphate
Wut? Almost everything at high levels is mind-affecting immune.
Not really. High (15+) level wizards are. At truly high levels (15+), though, the common mind-affecting immune creatures (i.e. vermin, plants, constructs, and undead) begin to drop off with vermin and plants not having CRs that high, only Maruts and Greater Stone Golems registering as threats among constructs, and with the three nightshades and liches for undead. You're mostly stuck with Outsiders and Dragons. While both might have Magic Circle against Evil (and in fact celestials always will) that's not a blanket immunity to mind-affecting (leaves you with spells that are still save or lose) and can be circumvented (capture it and mind-slave it when the spell wears off).
It's levels 7-13 that has the most mind-affecting immune monsters in Core. This might change a little outside of Core, but vermin, plants, and construct still tend towards high-mid and low-high levels and not truly high levels; and it never reaches an Everything is Mind-Affecting Immune, unless someone has been making a habit of Enchantment abuse.
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Peanut Dracolich avatar by Emperor Ing.
Luck Blessed: My most recent homebrew (new as of mid May 2013).
If anybody is ever interested in playing one of my homebrewed base classes let me know, I'd love to see some of them in play and would try to run a game for it.
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[3.5 Base Class] The Sire - now with capstone
?
eheh....rightttttt
