LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen

[Serpentine]

Dunno... I think they might have the luxury - so to speak - of whatever sex they choose to identify with being their "actual" gender, and therefore whichever their choice being cis-thatsex.
Maybe kinda like a person with one black parent and one white being able to identify as either race, and it being so without particular qualification, even while still acknowledging the dual biology?

[Hawkflight]

Originally Posted by bluewind95

I feel I have to say... Hawkflight's avatar inspired me to seek out what it was about. And I found out what it was. A movie called Arashi No Yoru Ni. And then I found out the name in English is One Stormy Night. And THEN it turns out that some fans got permission to dub it in English and put it up on YouTube. And I watched it. I must say... it's rather beautiful. I loved it.

Indeed. This is actually fairly relevant, as it's something I think many of us in relationships can relate to. Glad you liked it.

[Asta Kask]

If you are an obese transsexual, does that make you a trans-fat?

[Lissou]

Originally Posted by Serpentine

Dunno... I think they might have the luxury - so to speak - of whatever sex they choose to identify with being their "actual" gender, and therefore whichever their choice being cis-thatsex.
Maybe kinda like a person with one black parent and one white being able to identify as either race, and it being so without particular qualification, even while still acknowledging the dual biology?

Well, the way I see it, they still have the struggle and all. I mean there are several types, but someone with say both reproductive organs has to deal with having a penis if she's a female or having a vagina if he's male. And if they want the typical aspect of their gender they might need hormones and/or surgery. Neither of these are things cisgender people traditionally ever have to deal with or think about (while hormones and surgery can happen, they're not a concern for the most part).

It's like, despite not considering myself cis, I don't have any of the struggles associated with being trans, so I can't call myself that. Now of course IS people vary both in type of IS and in how they identify and live with it, but I would imagine the struggles in some cases would be similar in many ways due to not looking or not being the same as "normal" people are.

At the very least, I can see them being related and able to help one another. Like "when do you tell people", "who needs to know", "will they leave me" questions might occur in both I assume.

Of course it's only recently that people stopped just picking a sex, operating on the infant and giving hormones and just raising them as that, which would cause different issues as being raised explicitly as being both or neither.

[Astrella]

Originally Posted by Lissou

Seriously? So you're transgender if you don't fit gender stereotypes? Doesn't that make most of the people transgender then?
It seems weird. To me there is cisgender, transgender and genderqueer, just like there is, say, straight, gay and bi. So it sounds like you're saying "oh, no, bi counts as gay" or something. Is that a recognised definition, people? And genderqueer people really trans? I mean that makes me trans and I totally don't feel comfortable with that label at all. My only struggle is people telling me I should shave my legs, I don't feel it has much to do with what a trans person goes through.

Well, genderqueer is pretty much a mess in definition, but transgender is usually taken as being the umbrella term. (Though the whole definition of just what transgender is is rather iffy as well.)

[golentan]

Okay, to expand on the analogy someone brought up earlier, imagine we have three words for sexuality: Heterosexual, non-heterosexual, and homosexual. If someone is gay, they are both homosexual and non-heterosexual. But if they are bi, they are just non-heterosexual, yes? The one is a subset of the other.

Similarly, the definition of trans in every context from gender to chemistry means "opposite of cis" whereas genderqueer is "non-cis/non-normative." So even if I accepted your statement that trans was the umbrella term in common parlance (which I don't), it makes no sense for it to be so.

[Al'izh'dheg]

Hey everybody. I've been lurking on this thread (and its predecessor) for three weeks now. Please bear with me because I'm finding that writing this post is emotionally quite difficult for some reason. I haven't posted before because I really didn't know what (if anything) I had to say. Up until two weeks ago I had considered myself of normative sexuality. I guess that's cis? Please correct me gently if I'm mistaken in any of these things as I'm very new to many of these concepts.

I used to think myself pretty knowledgeable. My mother is a lesbian and raised me to be very accepting of such things. Some of my best friends are gay, and while that was never something I was interested in personally, it was something I was very accepting and openly curious about. I mean curious in a "what is your life like/how is it different from mine" sort of way. Sometimes this curiosity was intensely powerful, which was always a mystery to me, but I shrugged it off when, after some soul searching, I was quite certain that (being male), I'm interested only in females.

Anyway, it was this sort of curiosity that led me to come to these threads to read a bit. I didn't want to be intrusive or judgemental, so I didn't post. I just read. And I learned a LOT! Many of the things I was reading I didn't understand. Terms like cis and gender binary were completely new to me. Concepts I thought I understood (read: almost everything) suddenly were suddenly completely wrong.

And then there was a discussion over labels. I won't reopen that subject as it got rather intense at times, and I certainly don't want to cause bad feelings here. However, the discussion was fascinating to me as I believe that psychologically we use labels for ourselves and our environment for comparison purposes. We use these labels to define who and what we are, as well as what we stand for/believe in. The biggest source of psychological distress seems to come (in my experience at least) from the realization that our definitions of who and what we are no longer truly reflect who and what we are.

As an example, somebody may identify themselves as a loving husband. However, when said person is suddenly going through a divorce, this identity of "husband" is no longer accurate, and that makes for quite the distressing issue.

I'm sorry this is so long, I'll try to come to a point here. While I was looking up all of these concepts I didn't understand, I stumbled upon gender binary and what that implies. I went to look it up, and found the concept interesting, but pushed it to the back of my mind as I continued to read. Then the subject of homosexuality as it applies to gender-queer people came up, and suddenly *I* was in distress. So much so that at work I had to take a break and collect my thoughts.

I was feeling shame, confusion, and even a bit of fear, but didn't know why until I explored my feelings. See, when I was growing up, my mom was very open about what I should expect physically and emotionally in puberty. We had lots of talks (she was a nurse), and she even got me the book "What's Happening To My Body" to help explain even more.

Although I was prepared with knowledge, I found that, as I changed, the more I hated what I was changing into. It started with the church children's choir. I was a soprano with a beautiful, loud voice. I loved it. But that changed the first time I noticed my voice start to crack. Soon enough, everything was changing.

And then the emotional changes started coming, and that's where I ran into trouble. Although I was armed with knowledge ahead of time, I found my emotions difficult to understand and absolutely *hated* them. Until that point I had never really stopped to consider my sexuality as it wasn't a big deal to me. I knew I would end up "liking girls" in a way I hadn't up to that point, but the implications of that didn't occur to me until later.

Puberty, however, was going to force the issue. My parents were divorced, and I grew up with my mother. My father was in another state, and I had very little (read: no) contact with him at all. I was sheltered and didn't really have many friends. In short, I sexually identified as female more than male. I was enjoyed feminine things, and generally disliked male things. More than once I felt like a woman trapped in a man's body. This even extended so far as to include wanting to explore SRS.

There was one catch in my logically-oriented brain though. I absolutely did *not* like boys. I found the male body (including my own) as wholly unattractive and unsubtle, especially during arousal. I think if my mother had actually ever come out to me (she never did, I found out from my dad when I was 18), I would have explained how I felt to her. But I was embarrassed, and my mom was pretty abusive emotionally anyway, so perhaps I wouldn't have even then.

Regardless, with only my limited understanding of sexuality (and considering my tolerance towards homosexuality, I felt pretty knowledgeable at the time), I determined "Well, if I don't like guys, then I can't be transgendered. It must be some weird anomaly." So I chalked up those feelings to being completely off-base and a plea for attention, stuffed all these strange emotions into a deep, dark trunk, locked it, and threw away the key.

I know that sounds like I have all this repressed emotional energy that is just begging for release, but that's actually not the case. I've divorced once, but remarried and am happily with my wife and our 3 kids. Sexuality is never anything I question, although I do have many feminine traits. At least until recently.

However, when I read that it is perfectly legitimate for a person to identify as MtF and be attracted to women. Now all of the things that were different about me came forward, demanding attention. In short... I became gender confused. This is still something I'm struggling with. I'm sorting out my feelings, and... well an hour later of writing and I *still* don't have a point I guess. That's why I hadn't posted yet. I just need to... vent to somebody who understands maybe.

But I'm scared. There's still a part of me thinking this is just some sick, twisted plea for attention, and that's not what I want at all. However, most of me realizes there's something to what's going on, but I need to do some soul-searching to find out what that is. I know a few things for certain. I'm not attracted to men. I'm happy in my marriage and want nothing to change that status (my wife was supportive when I spoke to her of things, but also pretty firm with telling me that while she supports me and anything I want to do, she married a male, with all associated physical equipment, and wants to keep things that way). I am no longer interested in SRS as I'm quite happy with physical intimacy and how that makes me feel, even if I am ashamed of how it makes me look. Physically I've grown to tolerate the male member and its... idiosyncrasies, but things like facial hair are intolerable. Fortunately I'm rather bare of hair on my chest and back, so that's not an issue.

Anyway, I don't really know what my next step, if anything, is. But I did want to umm... introduce myself. So.. hi. Please be gentle in responding. If I've done something wrong or said something wrong, it is completely through ignorance. This was really hard for me to do, and I don't want to do the wrong thing or offend anybody.

[Musashi]

Hi! Welcome here, and don't be afraid to speak about your problems here.
Sooo there's a lot at once. It's very brave of you to post all that at once, and don't worry, I don't think you've offended anyone here. Sorry, I don't really know what to say, except that the matters of gender and sex can be very confusing as you have noticed, so it's not easy figuring it all out so fast.
Good luck with everything!

(Oh, and a small thing: "cis" stands for "cisgender", which is the opposite of "transgender". That's when you identify as the gender you were assigned at birth. I got two X chromosomes, look like a girl, and identify as a girl, so I'm cisgender. "Normative" sexuality, as in boys love girls and girls love boys, is heterosexuality.)

[Gardener]

Hi, Al'izh'dheg. Welcome to the thread, and I don't think you'd offend many people here with that post. You certainly haven't offended me. And don't worry about being generally uneasy and not really having a point to your posts. A lot of us feel the same way. I definitely do - I have no idea what to do, since I don't feel particularly feminine. I'm not going to give up my geekiness, my comfy jeans-and-T-shirt casual style, or my dislike of make-up in order to "prove" my femaleness, and so far I find it easier to just not tell people. I know that you certianly shouldn't have to do that, but I'm suspicious a lot of people around me will expect me to.

It's probably not fair to them, but equally I don't know if I'll ever actually do anything about it. A lot of the things I've read talk about overwhelming, overpowering need for change. That's not what I feel. To me, my body is wrong, but a lot of things in this world are wrong. It doesn't seem all that much worse or more demanding of response than all the rest of the world's problems. Maybe I'm just weird.

Also, I really wish I'd decided to see Shanghai Beauty when it was in Melbourne last year...

[Rappy]

Originally Posted by Lissou

I can see transgenderism being considered part of genderqueer, just like you can say being gay and being bi both make you queer, but that doesn't mean the opposite is true. As Golentan said.

I didn't mean to refer the opposite was true. I'm guessing my wording wasn't that well-crafted, to say the least.

[Nix Nihila]

First off, welcome Al'izh'dheg! I hope you can find the support you need to figure out who you are.

Huh. I've pretty much always thought of transgender as the umbrella term (since it was defined to me as an umbrella term), whereas genderqueer was a subcategory that involved identifying as both female and male, or as an alternative gender, or as no gender (and probably other stuff I'm not thinking of right now). Since that particular definition of genderqueer does not include transsexualism, I figured that transgender must be the term that covers both of these definitions.

Ugh. Semantics.

[golentan]

Welcome, new... person. I do know that stuff can get confusing: it seems like everyone knew I was bi before I did (family excluded) and it took me forever to come to terms with it despite having nothing against non-heterosexuality at any point. I don't really understand gender problems, but I can only guess they're more confusing (and made more so by lack of knowledge that such things might apply).

Edit: Random note, but does anyone else get really angry at some advertisements? The one that's got me mad at the moment is Miller Light: reinforcing gender stereotypes and insulting people who aren't sufficiently "manly." Never buying your product, guys. Never.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by golentan

Random note, but does anyone else get really angry at some advertisements? The one that's got me mad at the moment is Miller Light: reinforcing gender stereotypes and insulting people who aren't sufficiently "manly." Never buying your product, guys. Never.

Probably a good decision on your part. Though figuring out if they own X microbrewery might require a bit of digging.

Certain ones do grind my gears based upon the actual content of their messages, but I've got a slightly lower exposure to advertisements due to hardly ever watching television.

[Skeppio]

Originally Posted by golentan

Edit: Random note, but does anyone else get really angry at some advertisements? The one that's got me mad at the moment is Miller Light: reinforcing gender stereotypes and insulting people who aren't sufficiently "manly." Never buying your product, guys. Never.

Gah! I hate ads like that. Because you're inadequate unless you're a manly man. And since the stereotypical 'manly man' is a big sports-worshipping sweat-soaked brute, I think I'd rather be 'inadequate'.

[rayne_dragon]

Originally Posted by golentan

Edit: Random note, but does anyone else get really angry at some advertisements? The one that's got me mad at the moment is Miller Light: reinforcing gender stereotypes and insulting people who aren't sufficiently "manly." Never buying your product, guys. Never.

Things like that can be mildly annoying, but I wouldn't say they make me really angry. Some of them are just so stereotypical that they're just funny. The worst they can be is so dumb that I don't want to buy the product, but even then it's not so much anger as exasperation. What does tick me off is how pretty much any reference to trans or intersex people in (most) media is (almost) always in a negative context. And that context is pretty much always along the lines of "She's got a penis?! Gross!" Not only is it offensive, it's been so overused that I want to strangle any writer who uses it.

[Knaight]

Originally Posted by rayne_dragon

What does tick me off is how pretty much any reference to trans or intersex people in (most) media is (almost) always in a negative context. And that context is pretty much always along the lines of "She's got a penis?! Gross!" Not only is it offensive, it's been so overused that I want to strangle any writer who uses it.

This is one of the two most obnoxious portrayals, right along with "She was hot, but she turned out to be a dude, how can he be a horrible person who tricked me like that".

Speaking of hated things, anyone else forced to become far more familiar than they want to be with Your Favorite Martian? It managed to use those two in the most offensive way possible, to the point of releasing a song called "(censored gendered slur) Got a Penis".

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Knaight

Speaking of hated things, anyone else forced to become far more familiar than they want to be with Your Favorite Martian? It managed to use those two in the most offensive way possible, to the point of releasing a song called "(censored gendered slur) Got a Penis".

This some kind of musical group?

Originally Posted by Knaight

This is one of the two most obnoxious portrayals, right along with "She was hot, but she turned out to be a dude, how can he be a horrible person who tricked me like that".

That's... paranoia for ya, I guess...

[Knaight]

Originally Posted by Coidzor

This some kind of musical group?

Its the "musical" side of a youtube show that managed to become highly popular to the point of being a fad in and of itself.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Knaight

Its the "musical" side of a youtube show that managed to become highly popular to the point of being a fad in and of itself.

Mmm... Sounds inherently overrated. Silly people confusing female dogs with hyenas. Which are more closely related to cats, IIRC....

[rayne_dragon]

Originally Posted by Coidzor

Mmm... Sounds inherently overrated. Silly people confusing female dogs with hyenas. Which are more closely related to cats, IIRC....

If you're making the reference I think you're making, I'm highly amused.

[KingOfLaughter]

On a side note that I'm not sure how it came up, it has been decided that David Tennant and his counterpart Doctor Who, is most definitely Bi-Sexual and completely mine (again me and my friends don't know how this came up :P).

But I figure he probably is, and even if he isn't he seems like the kind of person to be totally chill with it all.

[Serpentine]

re. Hyenas: Now there's an LGBT topic. Hyenas. Man. Their females have evolved to be super masculine, to the point where they give birth from a pseudopenis. A pseudopenis, people. They give birth through a Richard.

re. sexist ads: Ugh, 'straya's terrible for this, especially beer ads. There was one - I forget the product or the name of the campaign - but it was basically all directed at men policing the relative masculinity of their fellow men. Ugh.

[Musashi]

To the point giving birth is very dangerous, both for the pups and the mothers. Insane death rate.
There's a webcomic, Digger, which finished a few months ago, telling the epic of a wombat that dealt, among other, with tribes of hyenas. The author knowing a lot about anthropology, zoology, and mythology, the portrayal of said humanoid hyenas is amazing. Quite a bit of what I know about hyenas, I learnt it there.

[Lissou]

Al'izh'dheg, congrats on figuring out things about yourself. Sometimes that's what matters the most and makes you feel at peace.

You say transitioning isn't an option for your wife. How do you feel about that? Do you think you can be happy now by knowing you're a lesbian with a penis rather than a straight man? Do you want to try and explore your femininity a bit or won't she have any of that? Is she only against an operation or would hormones be a problem too?

Or is that part of yourself so important that you know you can't be happy if you deny it, in which case you'll need to leave your current relationship?

I'm curious how you feel about all that.

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by Musashi

To the point giving birth is very dangerous, both for the pups and the mothers. Insane death rate.

Certainly there have been better ideas in the animal kingdom. Like bats. And dolphinsorcassperm whales...cetaceans.

[Qaera]

There's a shoe advertisement that specifically advertises "Gender-Colored shoes". Every time I see it, my fist clenches, I think. Blue is male and pink is female, if I remember correctly.

Hyenas are awesome. I had to do a presentation on them for AP Bio maybe? Rest of the class was grossed out, but the teacher thought it was, ahem, in-depth and enlightening.

~ ♅

[Coidzor]

Originally Posted by AThousandWords

There's a shoe advertisement that specifically advertises "Gender-Colored shoes". Every time I see it, my fist clenches, I think. Blue is male and pink is female, if I remember correctly.

They actually use that wording?

[Gardener]

Originally Posted by AThousandWords

There's a shoe advertisement that specifically advertises "Gender-Colored shoes". Every time I see it, my fist clenches, I think. Blue is male and pink is female, if I remember correctly.

For a minute, that sounded really cool. I thought abstract-idea-colored fashions might really take off. Then I read the last sentence.

[Al'izh'dheg]

Thank you for the kind words, everybody who responded. I really appreciate it! I was very nervous about posting, fearing I was doing something wrong, though I suppose if I couldn't explain things here, then where could I?

Originally Posted by Lissou

Al'izh'dheg, congrats on figuring out things about yourself. Sometimes that's what matters the most and makes you feel at peace.

You say transitioning isn't an option for your wife. How do you feel about that?

I think given another time and place, I would probably have transitioned. Now I'm a bit... set in my ways? No, that's not exactly right. While I'm not happy with the look of the equipment I've been given, I'm quite pleased with the (ooo how to put this delicately) pleasure it accords. I am curious if it is possible for a person who undergoes MtF transition through SRS could still achieve pleasure. Yes, that's shallow of me, but it's also important to me.

Do you think you can be happy now by knowing you're a lesbian with a penis rather than a straight man?

I've struggled with being happy for a long time now, but that has nothing to do with gender/sexuality issues. Aside from that, I'm still exploring what exactly it is I'm experiencing now. I feel better having put a name to it, but the rest remains to be seen.

Do you want to try and explore your femininity a bit or won't she have any of that?

Yes, I really want to explore this to see how far it goes. She's supportive no matter what I choose to do, but if I progress too far in a certain direction, she would want to change the nature of our relationship. She had her early experimentation with sex (think Chasing Amy), and isn't interested in a sexual relationship with a woman. This puts me in a very tough spot because now I'm mentally associating these changes with affects on my marriage. I know that's not her intention, but there it is. I'm not interested in leaving my marriage (at least for now), so I'm proceeding with extreme caution. Fortunately I have another very close friend who has been helping me explore in relative safety.

Is she only against an operation or would hormones be a problem too?
She is against hormones as well. Fortunately, I don't think I'm ready for looking into something this drastic, at least not yet.

Or is that part of yourself so important that you know you can't be happy if you deny it, in which case you'll need to leave your current relationship?

Right now I'm struggling with the fact that I'm 36 years old and just now coming to grips with this. These are things I haven't thought about for over 20 years. I'm very happy with my relationship. As far as my physical appearance, I learned years ago to just stop looking in the mirror. When I do, I find my mental image of myself doesn't match what I physically see. I play online games a lot, and inevitably my avatars are female. I find a lot of my hidden desires have been expressed through roleplay online, and that helps. In truth, I don't know what's going to happen, and that really bothers me.

I'm curious how you feel about all that.

[Qaera]

Originally Posted by Coidzor

They actually use that wording?

I only saw it a few times in a state I am normally not in, but I remember they were really playing up the Gender thing.

~ ♅