Darths And Droids 2: Should've Gone to Naboo

[Traab]

I just like how deeply annie is getting into the roleplaying. Ben seems to be pretty into it as well, but I could believe that annie really IS anakin skywalker with the way she is playing it out. Its spooky. Ben goes ooc now and then, for annie, its like ooc doesnt even exist anymore.

[Jade Dragon]

Originally Posted by Yana

What?! How could you know the outcome to a duel that hasn't run its course already?

Witchcraft, I say!

Anakin falls into the lava and nearly dies. The burns are so terrible he would normally die, but he becomes part cyborg, with black armor permanently melded onto his body.

*casts Resist Energy for fire*

[tgva8889]

Originally Posted by Traab

I just like how deeply annie is getting into the roleplaying. Ben seems to be pretty into it as well, but I could believe that annie really IS anakin skywalker with the way she is playing it out. Its spooky. Ben goes ooc now and then, for annie, its like ooc doesnt even exist anymore.

She is an actress, after all.

[Kato]

Yeah, it is pretty amazing how she sticks to her character... but I guess that's wjat role playinf was supposed to be like, once. Now my fellow players scold me when I make a Wisdom roll to see if my low wis character can come up with the idea I just had... not really easy to roleplay undert hose circumstances

[Kageru]

Originally Posted by Kato

Yeah, it is pretty amazing how she sticks to her character... but I guess that's wjat role playinf was supposed to be like, once. Now my fellow players scold me when I make a Wisdom roll to see if my low wis character can come up with the idea I just had... not really easy to roleplay undert hose circumstances

Once? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't table top rps start out as dungeon crawlers with an emphasis on killing monsters?

[Aquillion]

Originally Posted by Kageru

Once? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't table top rps start out as dungeon crawlers with an emphasis on killing monsters?

Technically, they actually started as modified wargames (the big idea that Gary Gygax had was to make a wargame where each player controlled only one character, originally. You can see this in D&D's emphasis on graph paper, miniatures, and so on -- those things weren't added to make the RPG easier to play; the RPG was built around them!)

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Aquillion

Technically, they actually started as modified wargames (the big idea that Gary Gygax had was to make a wargame where each player controlled only one character, originally. You can see this in D&D's emphasis on graph paper, miniatures, and so on -- those things weren't added to make the RPG easier to play; the RPG was built around them!)

Technicaly the first RPG system was Dave Arneson's - they got together and made D&D after that. The idea itself might be at least partially credited to David Wesley. An interesting article on the beginnings of RPG can be found here.
An interesting detail: the very first gamer won mostly through roleplaying and thinking outside the box.

[Scarlet Knight]

Originally Posted by Swiftmongoose

Anakin falls into the lava and nearly dies. The burns are so terrible he would normally die, but he becomes part cyborg, with black armor permanently melded onto his body.

*casts Resist Energy for fire*

*Puts fingers in his ears* LALALALA! Don't spoil the ending for me!

[ThePhantom]

Wow, they are really maxing out Anakin's evil meter. I wonder how many times a party has been the big bad for a campaign, since this is one of those times.

[Traab]

Oooh, new comic! And it looks like everyone is finally starting to catch on to anakins manipulations. Well, yoda and palpatine are, pretty sure obi wan figured it out a couple strips ago. :p And honestly, I would have expected the intterupted reveal to happen with palpatine, considering he is the npc and all.

[Traab]

I know its bad form to post twice in a row, but I figure there is a time limit on when thats not allowed. Anyways, another new comic and im a bit confused by the end of it. The argument over killing your subordinates, was anakin trying to claim that he cant think of a reason he would ever want to kill them? only to have obi wan point out, "Insubordination?" to show that yes, anakin WOULD in fact carve a bloody swath through his own underlings.

[Tavar]

I think that's what's being implied.

[The_Final_Stand]

See also: Episode 4.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

Also I don't care whether or not Motti technically outranked him, he was disdainful of Vader's force powers, and a practical demonstration was the best way to bring him back in line.

[MammonAzrael]

Originally Posted by The_Final_Stand

See also: Episode 4.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

Also I don't care whether or not Motti technically outranked him, he was disdainful of Vader's force powers, and a practical demonstration was the best way to bring him back in line.

Correction: It was the best way to bring everyone else back in line. Motti would've been dead.

[Porthos]

Originally Posted by Traab

The argument over killing your subordinates, was anakin trying to claim that he cant think of a reason he would ever want to kill them? only to have obi wan point out, "Insubordination?" to show that yes, anakin WOULD in fact carve a bloody swath through his own underlings.

Foreshadowing. The one that immediately jumps to mind is in Empire where the SSD is brought out of hyperspace early against Vader's orders.

It didn't go well for the person who disobeyed Vader's order.

And even though the Comic Irregulars have been know to change parts of the plot, at the very least it's a Mythology Gag.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Originally Posted by The_Final_Stand

See also: Episode 4.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing."

Also I don't care whether or not Motti technically outranked him, he was disdainful of Vader's force powers, and a practical demonstration was the best way to bring him back in line.

Vader was there as the Emperor's personal commissar, outside the normal chain of command. I think he only listened to Tarkin as long as he did because he was on board Tarkin's space station. Everyone else's rank was irrelevant.

On the other hand, in Empire Strikes Back, I believe he had formal command over his own fleet, which is why he can just up and murder his Admirals and then promote new ones.

[hamishspence]

Yup. Wookieepedia states that by the time of TESB, Vader had been given the rank of "Supreme Commander of Imperial Forces"- effectively putting him in charge of the whole Imperial military machine.

[Traab]

Originally Posted by hamishspence

Yup. Wookieepedia states that by the time of TESB, Vader had been given the rank of "Supreme Commander of Imperial Forces"- effectively putting him in charge of the whole Imperial military machine.

See, this strikes me as a bad idea on palpys part. "Hey, im a sith, hes a sith, sith are known for apprentices betraying and killing their masters once they stop getting stronger..... ill make my apprentice supreme commander of the entire galaxy's military. I dont foresee anything bad possibly happening through that." Didnt palpatine betray and kill his OWN master way back in the day? Seems like he might have thought that decision through a bit better.

[MammonAzrael]

Originally Posted by Traab

See, this strikes me as a bad idea on palpys part. "Hey, im a sith, hes a sith, sith are known for apprentices betraying and killing their masters once they stop getting stronger..... ill make my apprentice supreme commander of the entire galaxy's military. I dont foresee anything bad possibly happening through that." Didnt palpatine betray and kill his OWN master way back in the day? Seems like he might have thought that decision through a bit better.

Of course, another prime trait of Sith is arrogance - the belief that while they bested their master, they won't make the same mistakes and fall to their own apprentice. And Palpatine did a pretty impressive job hindering Vader from being more powerful (primarily in the EU...but that is also where most of Vader's plotting to overthrow his master is too). And I don't remember if it's covered in the movies or not, but wasn't Palpatine disappointed in the massive damage Vader received and his subsequent lower power?

[Traab]

Originally Posted by MammonAzrael

Of course, another prime trait of Sith is arrogance - the belief that while they bested their master, they won't make the same mistakes and fall to their own apprentice. And Palpatine did a pretty impressive job hindering Vader from being more powerful (primarily in the EU...but that is also where most of Vader's plotting to overthrow his master is too). And I don't remember if it's covered in the movies or not, but wasn't Palpatine disappointed in the massive damage Vader received and his subsequent lower power?

I dont think its ever mentioned directly that palpatine is less than thrilled with how things worked out. I mean think about it. Anakin played his part, palaptine is the ruler of the galaxy, and now this potentially VERY powerful jedi, is a half crippled cyborg. So even if he DOES turn on palpatine, he is far less likely to win a direct confrontation.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The Rule-of-Two Sith always struck me as a balancing act between making your apprentice powerful enough to be a useful tool and making him powerful enough to easily overthrow you. This is probably a feature, not a bug, as the entire system seems to be designed to force the ruling Sith to constantly have to watch his back and improve himself, or be replaced with a stronger one - pretty much the Sith ideal, even before the system was implemented.

Sidious was very good at being a Master, as he was perfectly capable of having exactly the right apprentice for his plans, and discarded them with impunity when their purpose was served. Maul was a thug assassin, and he served his purpose before getting offed by a Jedi. Tyrranus was a charismatic face-man and military leader, whom Sidious discarded as soon as his private army had served its purpose and empowered his public army. Finally, Vader was an intimidating, implacable enforcer of military rule, which was pretty much Sidious's whole endgame. He also had much, much stronger emotional control over Vader than his other apprentices, and sought to discard him and repeat that process of sovereignty-through-personal-corruption-and-guilt with Luke, who was ultimately a much more powerful Jedi than his crippled father. Regardless of how much power Sidious gave Vader over the Galactic military, he always had stronger control, both over Vader with his emotional and physical leverage, and over the military itself (he was still Commander-in-chief, after all, and his personal Force meddling was supposedly responsible for much of the Empire's military competence.)

Unfortunately for him and the continuation of the Sith, Sidious's emotional control wasn't as strong as he thought it was, and the Sith Rule-of-Two failed to account for a self-sacrificing kill on the part of the apprentice. And so, Sidious gets thrown into a reactor shaft and his apprentice dies moments later, ending the Sith tradition forever until they needed more villains for the EU.

[MammonAzrael]

Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama

The Rule-of-Two Sith always struck me as a balancing act between making your apprentice powerful enough to be a useful tool and making him powerful enough to easily overthrow you. This is probably a feature, not a bug, as the entire system seems to be designed to force the ruling Sith to constantly have to watch his back and improve himself, or be replaced with a stronger one - pretty much the Sith ideal, even before the system was implemented.

Sidious was very good at being a Master, as he was perfectly capable of having exactly the right apprentice for his plans, and discarded them with impunity when their purpose was served. Maul was a thug assassin, and he served his purpose before getting offed by a Jedi. Tyrranus was a charismatic face-man and military leader, whom Sidious discarded as soon as his private army had served its purpose and empowered his public army. Finally, Vader was an intimidating, implacable enforcer of military rule, which was pretty much Sidious's whole endgame. He also had much, much stronger emotional control over Vader than his other apprentices, and sought to discard him and repeat that process of sovereignty-through-personal-corruption-and-guilt with Luke, who was ultimately a much more powerful Jedi than his crippled father. Regardless of how much power Sidious gave Vader over the Galactic military, he always had stronger control, both over Vader with his emotional and physical leverage, and over the military itself (he was still Commander-in-chief, after all, and his personal Force meddling was supposedly responsible for much of the Empire's military competence.)

Unfortunately for him and the continuation of the Sith, Sidious's emotional control wasn't as strong as he thought it was, and the Sith Rule-of-Two failed to account for a self-sacrificing kill on the part of the apprentice. And so, Sidious gets thrown into a reactor shaft and his apprentice dies moments later, ending the Sith tradition forever until they needed more villains for the EU.

Completely agree, except that I think you're being a little unfair to Anakin. Luke wasn't exposed to years of Palpatine's manipulations before being presented with the offer of joining the Dark Side. Nor did Palpatine have a particularly sweet chip to offer ("kill your corrupted daddy and be my new second in command!" doesn't compare favorably to "Save the woman you love whole-heartedly from a death you foresee on an almost nightly basis!") I don't think that Luke was really a better person than his father - he just didn't have as much seriously messed up things happen to him.

EDIT: Unless you're specifically referring to their commands of the Force and such in which case, in light of Vader's handicaps, I also completely agree with.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Originally Posted by MammonAzrael

Completely agree, except that I think you're being a little unfair to Anakin. Luke wasn't exposed to years of Palpatine's manipulations before being presented with the offer of joining the Dark Side. Nor did Palpatine have a particularly sweet chip to offer ("kill your corrupted daddy and be my new second in command!" doesn't compare favorably to "Save the woman you love whole-heartedly from a death you foresee on an almost nightly basis!") I don't think that Luke was really a better person than his father - he just didn't have as much seriously messed up things happen to him.

Oh I agree, I wasn't bringing "being a better person" into it. I just meant that Luke was a more capable warrior and had more potential in the Force than Anakin did at that particular point in time at the end of Return of the Jedi, and that's why Palpatine wanted him. Vader = old and busted, Luke = new hotness.

Frankly, I think Palpatine vastly overestimated his own skills at temptation and got lazy with Luke, compared to his intricate plots to recruit Anakin and (presumably) Dooku. Luke was more correct about overconfidence being Palpatine's weakness than he could have known.

Originally Posted by MammonAzrael

EDIT: Unless you're specifically referring to their commands of the Force and such in which case, in light of Vader's handicaps, I also completely agree with.

Yeah that.

[Traab]

Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama

Oh I agree, I wasn't bringing "being a better person" into it. I just meant that Luke was a more capable warrior and had more potential in the Force than Anakin did at that particular point in time at the end of Return of the Jedi, and that's why Palpatine wanted him. Vader = old and busted, Luke = new hotness.

Frankly, I think Palpatine vastly overestimated his own skills at temptation and got lazy with Luke, compared to his intricate plots to recruit Anakin and (presumably) Dooku. Luke was more correct about overconfidence being Palpatine's weakness than he could have known.



Yeah that.

Even then he came close to losing. He tempted anakin in to joining him, luke he tried to enrage. He wanted luke to lose himself to hate, not to pledge undying loyalty to palpy. At least, not at the start. Thats why the confrontation took place while giving luke a window seat to watching everyone he cared about face death against the fully operational death star. He wanted luke to feel despair, hate, rage, then he could twist luke from there into being an apprentice. It was definitely more heavy handed than his campaign to lure anakin, but then, palpatine had to be REALLY subtle to avoid drawing attention from the entire jedi order at that point.

[MammonAzrael]

Originally Posted by Traab

Even then he came close to losing. He tempted anakin in to joining him, luke he tried to enrage. He wanted luke to lose himself to hate, not to pledge undying loyalty to palpy. At least, not at the start. Thats why the confrontation took place while giving luke a window seat to watching everyone he cared about face death against the fully operational death star. He wanted luke to feel despair, hate, rage, then he could twist luke from there into being an apprentice. It was definitely more heavy handed than his campaign to lure anakin, but then, palpatine had to be REALLY subtle to avoid drawing attention from the entire jedi order at that point.

In that light, it make's Palpatine seem much less foolhardy. In fact, it makes me feel like Palpatine wasn't really trying to get Luke to change sides at all. Rather, he was trying to get Luke to do the same thing Anakin did to the Sand People...just a step down a darker path, not a cannonball.

Extrapolating, had Luke given in to his anger, I could see Palpatine glorying in it, rubbing it in, and subduing Luke when he came to his senses. Then engineering his escape in such a way that he continues to take steps down the path to the Dark Side.

[Traab]

Originally Posted by MammonAzrael

In that light, it make's Palpatine seem much less foolhardy. In fact, it makes me feel like Palpatine wasn't really trying to get Luke to change sides at all. Rather, he was trying to get Luke to do the same thing Anakin did to the Sand People...just a step down a darker path, not a cannonball.

Extrapolating, had Luke given in to his anger, I could see Palpatine glorying in it, rubbing it in, and subduing Luke when he came to his senses. Then engineering his escape in such a way that he continues to take steps down the path to the Dark Side.

Pretty much yeah, I figure if things had gone according to plan, virtually everyone luke cared about would be dead, vader would have forced luke to retreat and escape in the rage induced scuffle, and then palpatine could have setup various scenarios that would have "forced" luke to give in to his rage to get past. Ambushes where some of his few remaining precious people are hurt/killed, moral traps where he needs info fast and only that imperial agent has the answers, "forcing" luke to torture him, etc etc etc.

Then eventually his fall would be complete and it would be time to make overtures. Send vader to luke with a fake plan to train with him to become strong enough that together they can kill that mean old emperor. Worst case scenario, vader and luke become the next generation master and apprentice when palpatine gets killed. Best case, palpatine reveals the plot so luke kills his own father and takes his place as palpatines apprentice.

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by MammonAzrael

Extrapolating, had Luke given in to his anger, I could see Palpatine glorying in it, rubbing it in, and subduing Luke when he came to his senses. Then engineering his escape in such a way that he continues to take steps down the path to the Dark Side.

Except Luke did give into his anger, just that Vader blocked the lightsaber strike intended to kill Palpatine.
I don't think it's that well emphasised how close the Emperor came to turning Luke - it's only when Luke takes off Vader's hand that he finally comes to his senses.

[hamishspence]

He does come to his senses before that, after Palpatine's poorly placed "Let the hate flow through you" comment.

It's just Vader provokes him back into a rage again: "Perhaps she will"

[Nerd-o-rama]

One thing I'll say about that scene in Return of the Jedi. For all that the story is old-hat now and all the problems Star Wars has always had with acting and script, it's a hell of an impressive scene of emotional back-and-forth, not just a neat sword fight with some lightning at the end.

And that's why the original trilogy and this particular scene of Darths & Droids are both better than the prequels. Sorry if I'm stepping on anyone's toes there, but I think I've pinpointed why the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel here is doing a lot more for me in comic form...

[kpenguin]

Holy well-played brick joke, Batman