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Old 09-19-2011, 07:10 PM   Top  -  End  -  #1
Yitzi
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Default General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

COMPLETE

I've been posting class-specific fixes, but they're really meant to work together, so this thread is for the whole shebang. The components can be found in their own seperate threads:
- Wizard offense, defense, utility, miscellaneous,
-sorcerer,
-monk,
-cleric,
-druid,
-barbarian,
-fighter and paladin part 1,
-paladin part 2,
-ranger,
-rogue

Due to the possible large size, I'm breaking it into 3 posts. The first is for general changes and those that affect primarily monsters, the second for caster-specific, and the third is stuff for noncasters. So:

-Miss chances do not stack, but rather overlap (if all of the same nature, such as concealment), or are rolled totally separately (if of different natures). This is really just RAW.
-Cheesy tricks fail to work. If the DM wants, he may determine a houserule on the spot to fix the loophole; otherwise, he just declares that it doesn't work. The definition of a cheesy trick is up to the DM, but generally refers to something that works by Rules-as-Written but not Rules-as-Intended, or that works by the rules but clearly would not work in a fictional world that the rules are meant to emulate.
-All allies, except those gained by effects such as Dominate (i.e. those that explicitly grant direct control of the subject's actions), are not "second PCs", but rather NPCs whom the character has some degree of influence over. (This is actually RAW, and simply is worth re-elaborating.)
-Leadership gives followers but not cohorts. A character of at least 9th level with at least 13 charisma who already has Leadership may take the Improved Leadership feat to gain a cohort as well. A leader can choose his cohort's race, primary class, and alignment (subject to DM approval), but no more. He may advise the cohort regarding matters such as feat, skill, and spell choice and multiclassing, but it is the cohort's decision whether to follow the advice.
-Whenever a creature has a spell-like ability that imitates a spell with variable XP cost, it can only imitate the usage with minimal cost unless the description indicates otherwise.
-A djinni's Wind Walk and a nightmare's Astral Projection and Etherealness can only target the "caster" themselves.
-Any ability that cannot be used by a summoned creature also cannot be forced by any means of commanding or controlling a creature. The only exception is a noble djinni granting wishes to its captor; even in such case, the capture must have been by natural means rather than a spell such as Planar Binding.
-Inherent bonuses do not exist. Instead, any effect that would grant an inherent bonus instead permanently increases the creature's ability score (by the amount the bonus would have been for.) A creature's total ability score (including increases gained every 4 levels, but not including bonuses or penalties) cannot exceed 18 plus one-fourth its HD. (Note that if a monster as presented in the MM with no class levels has scores other than 10 or 11, the difference is considered a racial bonus or penalty.)
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Last edited by Yitzi : 12-22-2011 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 09-19-2011, 07:11 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
Yitzi
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

-A caster can only prepare spells once per day, no matter how much he rests.
-Spell Power, an Orange Ioun Stone, etc. boost caster level for most purposes, but not for the purposes of any bonus to a d20 roll (such as a caster level check or dispel check), the DC of such a roll, the maximum HD of a target, or the maximum HD of a polymorph form.
-If an illusion allows a save to negate it when it's interacted with, careful sensory perception (e.g. a Search check) counts as careful study (and therefore interaction) for this purpose. (This is actually probably RAW already, but just to make it clear.)
-Called creatures take a share of the party's loot and XP, determined as follows:
Spoiler

-Allies gained by any other spell with a duration of at least 24 hours take a share of the XP like a called creature, but not of treasure.

New rule: Condition levels
Spoiler


Spell changes:
Spoiler


New spells:
Spoiler


Sorcerer:
Spoiler


Cleric (Domain-associated spells):
Spoiler


Druid:
Spoiler
__________________
My general 3.5 balance fix.
My psionics remix.
My common-sense houserules.
More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
Come visit the Core Coliseum today, for a totally different style of optimization.

Last edited by Yitzi : 02-01-2012 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 09-19-2011, 07:14 PM   Top  -  End  -  #3
Yitzi
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

New and changed feats:
Spoiler


New equipment rules:
Spoiler


Skill (and skill-boosting item) changes:
Spoiler


Monk:
Spoiler


Fighter:
Spoiler


Barbarian:
Spoiler


Paladin:
Spoiler


Blackguard:
Spoiler


Ranger:
Spoiler


Rogue:
Spoiler
__________________
My general 3.5 balance fix.
My psionics remix.
My common-sense houserules.
More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
Come visit the Core Coliseum today, for a totally different style of optimization.

Last edited by Yitzi : 02-10-2013 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 09-19-2011, 07:16 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
Yitzi
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

And one more reserved just in case.
__________________
My general 3.5 balance fix.
My psionics remix.
My common-sense houserules.
More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
Come visit the Core Coliseum today, for a totally different style of optimization.
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Old 09-19-2011, 07:31 PM   Top  -  End  -  #5
NeoSeraphi
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

I suggest you change the paladin's remove disease uses to daily, and eventually give them the ability to remove curse, remove fear (that one makes sense given his Aura of Courage), and break enchantment.

Suggestion for Greater Diamond Soul: In addition to increasing the amount of SR the monk gets, I suggest giving the monk the ability to raise and lower his SR as an immediate action (At 18th level, an improvement from the original Diamond Soul) (Assuming immediate actions exist in Core-only games)

...So what does hold person do then?
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:04 PM   Top  -  End  -  #6
Yitzi
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
I suggest you change the paladin's remove disease uses to daily, and eventually give them the ability to remove curse, remove fear (that one makes sense given his Aura of Courage), and break enchantment.
That's definitely the way to go if you want to focus on the paladin-as-status-healer archetype. I don't really see that as well-supported, though (Pathfinder nonwithstanding), and would rather go for the paladin-as-holy-warrior archetype.

Quote:
Suggestion for Greater Diamond Soul: In addition to increasing the amount of SR the monk gets, I suggest giving the monk the ability to raise and lower his SR as an immediate action (At 18th level, an improvement from the original Diamond Soul) (Assuming immediate actions exist in Core-only games)
Immediate actions do exist in Core (e.g. casting Feather Fall), if not by that name, but I don't really see any reason that a monk should get that ability. (He also shouldn't need it; most magical protections are duplicated by his class abilities, and those few that aren't, such as Fly, can usually be duplicated by items (which ignore his SR when he's the one using them.) Throw in Soulspell so even a CL 5 Fly can't be easily dispelled, and he should do just fine.

Quote:
...So what does hold person do then?
I'm not quite sure what the question is. If the target succeeds on their save, nothing, if they fail by less than 5 it paralyzes them one round, if they fail by 5-9 it paralyzes them until they make a successful save (the save is a free action, so they could, for instance, cast a silent stilled spell in the same round they try to make a save to break it), and if they fail by 10 or more it paralyzes them until they make a successful save (the save is a full-round action, so they can't cast a silent stilled spell that round.)
__________________
My general 3.5 balance fix.
My psionics remix.
My common-sense houserules.
More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
Come visit the Core Coliseum today, for a totally different style of optimization.
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:09 PM   Top  -  End  -  #7
NeoSeraphi
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
That's definitely the way to go if you want to focus on the paladin-as-status-healer archetype. I don't really see that as well-supported, though (Pathfinder nonwithstanding), and would rather go for the paladin-as-holy-warrior archetype.
No arguments here. Still, if you're going to leave remove disease in the class, you should at least change it to daily uses.

Quote:
Immediate actions do exist in Core (e.g. casting Feather Fall), if not by that name, but I don't really see any reason that a monk should get that ability. (He also shouldn't need it; most magical protections are duplicated by his class abilities, and those few that aren't, such as Fly, can usually be duplicated by items (which ignore his SR when he's the one using them.) Throw in Soulspell so even a CL 5 Fly can't be easily dispelled, and he should do just fine.
Whether he needs it or not, he should get it as a reflection of his ability to control his body more and more easily as he advances through the class. I don't know, it just makes sense to me, that's all.


Quote:
I'm not quite sure what the question is. If the target succeeds on their save, nothing, if they fail by less than 5 it paralyzes them one round, if they fail by 5-9 it paralyzes them until they make a successful save (the save is a free action, so they could, for instance, cast a silent stilled spell in the same round they try to make a save to break it), and if they fail by 10 or more it paralyzes them until they make a successful save (the save is a full-round action, so they can't cast a silent stilled spell that round.)
Alright
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:35 AM   Top  -  End  -  #8
Ashtagon
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:
A creature's total ability score (including increases gained every 4 levels, but not including bonuses) cannot exceed 18 plus one-fourth its HD.
Gold dragons just got a lot weaker and dumber and downright socially awkward.
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Old 09-20-2011, 02:12 AM   Top  -  End  -  #9
Ziegander
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
Gold dragons just got a lot weaker and dumber and downright socially awkward.
While I agree that the "ability scores max out at 23" rule is one of the worst houserules I've ever seen, I don't understand the above sentiment. A score of 23 in Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma is still far above the stats of any human you're ever going to meet (IRL).
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Old 09-20-2011, 04:54 AM   Top  -  End  -  #10
Ashtagon
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
While I agree that the "ability scores max out at 23" rule is one of the worst houserules I've ever seen, I don't understand the above sentiment. A score of 23 in Strength, Intelligence, and Charisma is still far above the stats of any human you're ever going to meet (IRL).
Comparing creatures that have wings, breathe fire, and are 40 feet long to a puny human is not reasonable. And that's before you consider magic.
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Old 09-20-2011, 06:16 AM   Top  -  End  -  #11
Yitzi
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
No arguments here. Still, if you're going to leave remove disease in the class, you should at least change it to daily uses.
Why? It's not something he's likely to need all that often.

Quote:
Whether he needs it or not, he should get it as a reflection of his ability to control his body more and more easily as he advances through the class. I don't know, it just makes sense to me, that's all.
Spell resistance is really a measure of his soul rather than his body. And he can control it, it just takes a bit of focus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
Gold dragons just got a lot weaker and dumber and downright socially awkward.
Perhaps I wasn't clear; if a monster begins with high ability scores, that counts as a racial bonus. Adding that now. Thanks for pointing out the potential confusion.
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My general 3.5 balance fix.
My psionics remix.
My common-sense houserules.
More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
Come visit the Core Coliseum today, for a totally different style of optimization.

Last edited by Yitzi : 09-20-2011 at 06:18 AM.
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:02 AM   Top  -  End  -  #12
Dryad
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:
Comparing creatures that have wings, breathe fire, and are 40 feet long to a puny human is not reasonable. And that's before you consider magic.
By this reasoning, the game system itself is unreasonable, because that is exactly what it's meant to do.

OP:
I quite agree with the spirit of the tightening of rules, but some (GM may simply decide that cheesy strats don't work) should be... Well; self-explanatory, since the game tells us that whatever the GM decides is right, basically.

Other things are possibly solutions that only work against people who treat the system as a book of law, and try to find any loophole. To people like me, they don't mean much, and seem to overcomplicate things.

I do complete agree with your take on miss-chance, and have used a similar idea myself for a long time. I also love your tier-system of conditions! It makes no sense that someone could take both the penalties of being blinded as well as those of having blurry vision. Thanks for making a clear and understandable list!
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:23 PM   Top  -  End  -  #13
Ziegander
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
Perhaps I wasn't clear; if a monster begins with high ability scores, that counts as a racial bonus. Adding that now. Thanks for pointing out the potential confusion.
That's even stupider, sorry if I offend, but the only saving grace that could possibly be gleaned from the "max 23" rule was helping to provide some parity between PC and monster ability scores. Now you are simply making melee impossible and PC save DCs are going to be FAR outpaced by monsters save DCs.
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:53 PM   Top  -  End  -  #14
Realms of Chaos
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Um... the alteration to the ability score caps, as currently written, doesn't actually do anything. Because it wasn't specified that racial bonuses don't count (which I think was the intention), no bonus other than that gained through HD (which can't raise your ability scores above 18 + 1/4 HD) counts towards that maximum.
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:55 PM   Top  -  End  -  #15
Yitzi
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dryad View Post
OP:
I quite agree with the spirit of the tightening of rules, but some (GM may simply decide that cheesy strats don't work) should be... Well; self-explanatory, since the game tells us that whatever the GM decides is right, basically.

Other things are possibly solutions that only work against people who treat the system as a book of law, and try to find any loophole. To people like me, they don't mean much, and seem to overcomplicate things.
Indeed; a notable portion of this (NOT all, though) is really just meant to make such things clearly not be an issue. Others are actually really needed even in a normal game, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
That's even stupider, sorry if I offend, but the only saving grace that could possibly be gleaned from the "max 23" rule was helping to provide some parity between PC and monster ability scores. Now you are simply making melee impossible and PC save DCs are going to be FAR outpaced by monsters save DCs.
Nonsense, for several reasons:
1. It's not meant to provide parity between PC and monster ability scores, but rather less difference between a PC's most important score (where he can no longer apply inherent bonuses on top of advancement increases) and secondary abilities (where now he can apply more than 5 from wishes and tomes/manuals).
2. Melee is nowhere near impossible. You can still reach 23 before bonuses, meaning 29 (+9 bonus) with bonuses (even restricting things to items), so even a fighter who picks entirely useless feats (which is essentially an NPC class) can get 20+9+5(weapon enhancement)=+34 bonus. That's quite enough to hit anything (except a defensively optimized PC-type) with a very decent chance.
3. PC save DCs will actually tend to improve as a result of this change, since the "inherent bonus" slot will boost their secondary abilities rather than primary abilities, and saves are usually based off secondary abilities. This was actually part of the original goal of the change.

Remember, in the old system you were also capped at 18+1/4 HD, simply because there's no way to start with more than 18 or increase the base score more than once every 4 levels. So the only way it weakens PCs is by removing inherent bonuses with the replacement not being usable on the key ability score.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
Um... the alteration to the ability score caps, as currently written, doesn't actually do anything. Because it wasn't specified that racial bonuses don't count (which I think was the intention), no bonus other than that gained through HD (which can't raise your ability scores above 18 + 1/4 HD) counts towards that maximum.
As I said to Ziegander, it indeed would do nothing by itself. But when combined with the change to inherent bonuses (which turns them into an actual increase to an ability score), it does provide a much-needed cap on those.
__________________
My general 3.5 balance fix.
My psionics remix.
My common-sense houserules.
More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
Come visit the Core Coliseum today, for a totally different style of optimization.

Last edited by Yitzi : 09-20-2011 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 09-20-2011, 01:16 PM   Top  -  End  -  #16
Ziegander
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
2. Melee is nowhere near impossible. You can still reach 23 before bonuses, meaning 29 (+9 bonus) with bonuses (even restricting things to items)[...]
Ahhh, sorry then, my mistake. The rule as written sounded to me like ability scores simply can not exceed 23, which would be... insane, but if you intend ability scores to cap at 23 before any bonuses well, then that makes a good deal more sense.
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Old 09-20-2011, 01:18 PM   Top  -  End  -  #17
Yitzi
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Yeah, a cap of 23 after bonuses at high levels would get sort of silly.
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My general 3.5 balance fix.
My psionics remix.
My common-sense houserules.
More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
Come visit the Core Coliseum today, for a totally different style of optimization.
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Old 09-21-2011, 10:40 AM   Top  -  End  -  #18
Yitzi
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Sorcerer features are up; they can also be found by themselves here.
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My general 3.5 balance fix.
My psionics remix.
My common-sense houserules.
More minor homebrew (weapons, races).

Complete system remake (under construction, barely started)

Ever want to try your hand at optimizing, but dislike heavy emphasis on splatbooks and/or the rocket tag phenomenon?
Come visit the Core Coliseum today, for a totally different style of optimization.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:16 PM   Top  -  End  -  #19
Glimbur
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
As I said to Ziegander, it indeed would do nothing by itself. But when combined with the change to inherent bonuses (which turns them into an actual increase to an ability score), it does provide a much-needed cap on those.
Suppose a hypothetical human wizard. He takes 20 levels in wizard, which you wouldn't expect due to his Int and PrC's being better, but that's a different discussion. Wizard 20. Starts with 18 Int. Stat increase at 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. Int is now 23. Under the normal system, he can also read a book of +5 Int and get 28 Int. He can also age to middle aged or old if he really wants more Int. Under your system, he is stuck at 23 base int. The difference between 23 Int and 28 Int is a few plusses in skills you can already do easily by level 20, and a 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spell per day. Add in the +6 item we would expect and we are comparing 29 to 34 Int. This is an extra 6th, 7th, and 8th level spell per day. Significant? Somewhat. Is it worth making a new rule over? I disagree with you here: I don't think it is. Inherent bonuses help high level PCs be more distinct from lower level ones. Even the humble fighter appreciates another +2-3 to hit and +2-4 damage which he could get from a Manual of Gainful Exercise.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:23 PM   Top  -  End  -  #20
NeoSeraphi
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimbur View Post
Suppose a hypothetical human wizard. He takes 20 levels in wizard, which you wouldn't expect due to his Int and PrC's being better, but that's a different discussion. Wizard 20. Starts with 18 Int. Stat increase at 4, 8, 12, 16, 20. Int is now 23. Under the normal system, he can also read a book of +5 Int and get 28 Int. He can also age to middle aged or old if he really wants more Int. Under your system, he is stuck at 23 base int. The difference between 23 Int and 28 Int is a few plusses in skills you can already do easily by level 20, and a 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spell per day. Add in the +6 item we would expect and we are comparing 29 to 34 Int. This is an extra 6th, 7th, and 8th level spell per day. Significant? Somewhat. Is it worth making a new rule over? I disagree with you here: I don't think it is. Inherent bonuses help high level PCs be more distinct from lower level ones. Even the humble fighter appreciates another +2-3 to hit and +2-4 damage which he could get from a Manual of Gainful Exercise.
I don't think Yitzi is worried about the extra 6th, 7th, and 8th level spells per day. I think he's more concerned about the +3 bonus to all save DCs (+4 if you include old-venerable age, +5 if you're a race that has a +2 bonus to Intelligence)

With DCs, every single point counts, because it's a potential 5% increase in every one of your offensive spells succeeding. That +5 there...that's a 25% increased success rate. That's incredibly significant, much more so than a +7 bonus to damage with a two-handed weapon (Though that itself is also pretty significant considering it applies to every attack roll)

Plus, you have to consider epic levels. Epic spellcasting focuses on Spellcraft checks. Every point of Intelligence increases the threshold for more and more powerful spells you can create and cast. (That +5 bonus? That's 5 more points I could spend creating a spell and still take 10 on my Spellcraft checks to cast it)
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:55 PM   Top  -  End  -  #21
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

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Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
I don't think Yitzi is worried about the extra 6th, 7th, and 8th level spells per day. I think he's more concerned about the +3 bonus to all save DCs (+4 if you include old-venerable age, +5 if you're a race that has a +2 bonus to Intelligence)

With DCs, every single point counts, because it's a potential 5% increase in every one of your offensive spells succeeding. That +5 there...that's a 25% increased success rate. That's incredibly significant, much more so than a +7 bonus to damage with a two-handed weapon (Though that itself is also pretty significant considering it applies to every attack roll)

Plus, you have to consider epic levels. Epic spellcasting focuses on Spellcraft checks. Every point of Intelligence increases the threshold for more and more powerful spells you can create and cast. (That +5 bonus? That's 5 more points I could spend creating a spell and still take 10 on my Spellcraft checks to cast it)
Let's look at some monsters, since players mostly fight monsters in a standard game.

A Wyrm Black Dragon is CR 20, so the party should be able to take 4 of them in a day and be pretty beat up/exhausted of resources. That means a OHKO shouldn't be feasible, but it should be possible. Saving bonuses are +26/+19/+23. Core doesn't particularly have Ref or Die spells, so we will consider a hypothetical Fort Save or die spell, as well as a Will or Die spell. DC for a 9th level spell from our 20th level wizard is 10+9(level)+9 or 12 for a total DC of 28 or 31. Dragon makes that on a 5 versus an 8 assuming a will save, and that is ignoring its SR of 26... which should mostly be ignored as it will be beaten by the wizard on a roll of 6 on d20. There's about a 14.5% chance of the dragon dying to the wizard with an ability cap versus 29% chance of dying to the wizard without the ability cap, assuming the wizard knows to use a will save spell and that there is a will save or die spell at 9th level (there's Imprisonment, which is a touch spell, and Dominate Monster, which is pretty nice to land on a dragon).

A Balor is also CR 20. Saves are 22/19/19 with 28 SR except it has Unholy Aura at will so saves are really 26/23/23. That's better than the dragon wiht better SR, so the wizard has even less of a chance of ending the encounter in one spell.

The Tarrasque is CR 20 and has saves of 38/29/20 with SR 32 and immunity to rays, lines, cones, and magic missiles. Again Dominate Monster would be cute, but again the odds are not great: even the uncapped wizard has DC of 31 so Terry needs to roll less than an 11 and the wizard needs to roll a 12 or more. Possible? Yes, but it is worse than a coin flip and Terry can kill at least one person a round given the chance.

Yitzi isn't planning on including racial bonuses in the cap, and we haven't heard if old age applies or not, so it's at most a +4 difference.

I didn't consider Epic because, honestly, Epic is even worse at being balanced than pre-epic. I also didn't consider Epic Spellcasting because it is terrible without mitigation and with mitigation Spellcraft is irrelevant. I posted in this old thread to explain why.
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Old 09-21-2011, 05:56 PM   Top  -  End  -  #22
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This is quite a lot, and I do appreciate the work here. One thing I'd like to pitch in is about those condition tracks: They are bad.

One thing condition tracks do is stack with each other, and you have shown. Now, I couldn't really understand the special DC stuff about each track, but I do believe that the more afflicted you are by an effect of a certain level, the easier it is to afflict you with an effect of the next level. That's a big deal, because it means that parties will be more effective if everyone is spamming the same kinds of abilities. Stun will be more useful is everyone runs stun, or everybody but the damage guy runs stun. This will encourage parties to play similar characters, which is almost against the iconic nature of D&D. I dislike that, and would prefer that if a character is affected by ANY tier 1 effect, it becomes easier for him/her to be hit with ANY tier 2 effect.

Please correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions. I are not always the read gud.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:36 PM   Top  -  End  -  #23
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Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
I don't think Yitzi is worried about the extra 6th, 7th, and 8th level spells per day. I think he's more concerned about the +3 bonus to all save DCs (+4 if you include old-venerable age, +5 if you're a race that has a +2 bonus to Intelligence)

With DCs, every single point counts, because it's a potential 5% increase in every one of your offensive spells succeeding. That +5 there...that's a 25% increased success rate. That's incredibly significant, much more so than a +7 bonus to damage with a two-handed weapon (Though that itself is also pretty significant considering it applies to every attack roll)
This; it's mainly because of the effect on DCs. Of course, decreasing the number of different spells a wizard can prepare helps too, as does allowing the fighter to increase his CON with manuals far more effectively.

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Plus, you have to consider epic levels. Epic spellcasting focuses on Spellcraft checks.
Epic spellcasting is broken anyway; I think a modified version of the epic metamagic replacement posted here a while back is a better way to go.

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Originally Posted by Glimbur View Post
Let's look at some monsters, since players mostly fight monsters in a standard game.

A Wyrm Black Dragon is CR 20, so the party should be able to take 4 of them in a day and be pretty beat up/exhausted of resources. That means a OHKO shouldn't be feasible, but it should be possible. Saving bonuses are +26/+19/+23. Core doesn't particularly have Ref or Die spells, so we will consider a hypothetical Fort Save or die spell, as well as a Will or Die spell. DC for a 9th level spell from our 20th level wizard is 10+9(level)+9 or 12 for a total DC of 28 or 31. Dragon makes that on a 5 versus an 8 assuming a will save, and that is ignoring its SR of 26... which should mostly be ignored as it will be beaten by the wizard on a roll of 6 on d20. There's about a 14.5% chance of the dragon dying to the wizard with an ability cap versus 29% chance of dying to the wizard without the ability cap, assuming the wizard knows to use a will save spell and that there is a will save or die spell at 9th level (there's Imprisonment, which is a touch spell, and Dominate Monster, which is pretty nice to land on a dragon).
That's the wizard's fault for targeting the dragon's best saves. Instead, he should be forgetting about save-or-dies (which have been nerfed anyway by the condition levels fix) and using Reflex save spells (which he does have a pretty decent chance of hitting with, and will probably do some damage even without), or buffs, or some of those no-save debuffs or combat control spells he has.

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so the wizard has even less of a chance of ending the encounter in one spell.
That's a feature, not a bug.

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Originally Posted by YouLostMe View Post
This is quite a lot, and I do appreciate the work here. One thing I'd like to pitch in is about those condition tracks: They are bad.

One thing condition tracks do is stack with each other, and you have shown.
The intent was not that they should stack substantially except where they would anyway (and nausea, which really should include "sickened" as well). Fixed.

Quote:
Now, I couldn't really understand the special DC stuff about each track, but I do believe that the more afflicted you are by an effect of a certain level, the easier it is to afflict you with an effect of the next level. That's a big deal, because it means that parties will be more effective if everyone is spamming the same kinds of abilities.
Sort of. You'll get a better chance of getting someone totally taken out of the fight, but on the flip side you get no effect if someone just barely misses their save (since two sickened effects, for instance, don't stack.)

Quote:
Stun will be more useful is everyone runs stun, or everybody but the damage guy runs stun. This will encourage parties to play similar characters, which is almost against the iconic nature of D&D.
Except that if everyone plays a wizard so they can spam stun, they'll be extremely vulnerable to classes and monsters that are strong against wizards, and they will find themselves having to escape or face a TPK relatively often.

Quote:
I dislike that, and would prefer that if a character is affected by ANY tier 1 effect, it becomes easier for him/her to be hit with ANY tier 2 effect.
Except that makes no sense. Why should being dazzled make you more vulnerable to nausea? Better to rely on the fact that party diversity is still needed for the same reasons as usual, and on the fact that spamming the same effect over and over is a double-edged sword.

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Please correct me if I'm wrong in my assumptions. I are not always the read gud.
Done.
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Old 09-21-2011, 06:55 PM   Top  -  End  -  #24
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

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Originally Posted by Yitzi View Post
That's the wizard's fault for targeting the dragon's best saves. Instead, he should be forgetting about save-or-dies (which have been nerfed anyway by the condition levels fix) and using Reflex save spells (which he does have a pretty decent chance of hitting with, and will probably do some damage even without), or buffs, or some of those no-save debuffs or combat control spells he has.



That's a feature, not a bug.
We're talking past each other here. As I understood it, the point of putting a cap on attributes was to reduce the power of spellcasters to end an encounter in one spell. If they are casting spells which do damage, or debuffs, or buffs, then they are being team players because they do things which help the party but do not invalidate them. A polar ray (though I don't know why you would cast that spell) does damage, as does the barbarian, so they are working as a team. A Heightened Finger of Death ignores the barbarian's contribution and makes him feel useless and angry. So, let's start over: what is your design goal in capping attributes?

Actually, you already answered that question. I should read the thread.

1) It will encourage PC's to have lower high ability scores, but it doesn't follow that, for example, a Wizard who cannot get a +5 Tome of Int would buy a +5 Tome of Wis instead of Pearls of Power or staves or similar. It seems more likely that highest scores will be lower and low scores will be unaffected. Why is this a design goal, anyway?
2)+34 to hit is ok for attacking a Balor, with AC 35 (really 39 due to at-will Unholy Aura) means your primary will hit on a 5. But your secondary needs a 10, your third attack needs a 15, and forget about your fourth attack. The wyrm black dragon also has a 39 AC. Is hitting with about two attacks a round in melee really enough to stand toe to toe with a dragon's 46/41/41/41/41/41 attack routine? That's a slugfest that will only end one way: pureed PC. That's not really your fault though, Dragons are murder machines. Consider the Balor again. It swings at only 31/26/21/16 with a vorpal weapon and 30/25 with a flaming entangling whip. Hey, that whip calls for a Str check to resist it. The Balor has a 35 Str. Our 20th level fighter with ability caps cannot have more than 29 Str after a +6 item.
tl;dr You can hit once, but iteratives are hindered, and one attack a round at high levels is pretty garbage.
3)What saves are based on secondary attributes? Full casters are all SAD in core, and save DC is a plenty good reason to boost an attribute for MAD casters like Favored Soul. Paladins and Knights and other Cha-influenced brawlers would like more Cha... but removing options isn't the best way to encourage variety.

Quote:
Except that if everyone plays a wizard so they can spam stun, they'll be extremely vulnerable to classes and monsters that are strong against wizards, and they will find themselves having to escape or face a TPK relatively often.
You don't have to be a wizard to stun. Monks can do it, there's a Sudden Stunning property in DMG II which Cha-based melee characters like, Clerics and Druids can probably stun thanks to so many spells to choose, some fighting style feats allow stunning, and the list goes on. Choose an affliction, and there are probably many ways to induce that in an opponent. Look at fear/intimidate optimization and you see the results of a condition track.
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Old 09-21-2011, 07:16 PM   Top  -  End  -  #25
NeoSeraphi
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Alright, I wasn't planning to join the fray on this particular discussion, but it seems necessary given the numbers that are being thrown around.

Yitzi. You can't adjust the rules for PCs while completely ignoring the rules for monsters. It doesn't work that way. If you lower the power of every class while letting monsters stay just as powerful, the CR system falls completely out of whack.

AC is a broken mechanic. This isn't something you can argue, it's fact. Unless you can wear full plate, and more than half the classes can't, your AC will be 30 or less unless you're shapeshifting somehow. (10+10 for a +5 breastplate +3 Dex is 26 for a barbarian, 10+5 Class +10 Wis +5 Dex is 30 for a tank-monk, 10+9 for a +5 chain shirt +10 Dex is 29 for a rogue)

This means, if you're getting full-attacked by a monster, you're going to get hit almost every time at higher levels. So how do you kill a monster? You have to nerf it somehow before you charge in.

It's like...*shudders* It's like Final Fantasy XIII. In order to make every role seem important, rather than just blasters and DPR, monsters gain all kinds of immunities to melee and energy damage, so you have to stun or daze or petrify them instead of just straight up hitting them with your sword.

You, on the other hand, have nerfed DCs and debuffs, as well as PC melee stats, while keeping all monsters untouched.

Now you're going to charge at a monster who was CR'ed with the intent of facing PCs capable of casting miracle, flesh to stone, and destruction, but with a 29 in two stats and your defensive spells killed, no Shock Trooper, no Heedless Charge, etc.

You know why non-Core exists? Because the MM is poorly designed. Because regeneration, DR, level-draining, rending, grappling, swallowing hole, and other things, are poorly designed. Because you're going to fight monsters as superhumans, when you need to be a monster to fight a monster.

If you want to kill the tarrasque with damage, you're doing it wrong. If you want to kill a dragon with damage, you're doing it wrong. Monsters are designed to be challenging to sub-optimized, equal to optimized, and devastating to unoptimized, at least in Core-only (which is why all that extra material was released. Because monsters are too powerful)

So by nerfing damage, by nerfing debuffs, by nerfing stats themselves without improving AC or weakening enemies, you're basically setting up higher level games to be completely unbalanced and challenging, requiring immense amounts of optimization from the players who can't optimize because there are limits on their power, when there are no such limits on monsters.
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Old 09-21-2011, 07:31 PM   Top  -  End  -  #26
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Originally Posted by Glimbur View Post
We're talking past each other here. As I understood it, the point of putting a cap on attributes was to reduce the power of spellcasters to end an encounter in one spell. If they are casting spells which do damage, or debuffs, or buffs, then they are being team players because they do things which help the party but do not invalidate them. A polar ray (though I don't know why you would cast that spell) does damage, as does the barbarian, so they are working as a team. A Heightened Finger of Death ignores the barbarian's contribution and makes him feel useless and angry. So, let's start over: what is your design goal in capping attributes?
To take things literally: The main reason to cap ability scores is so that wish/tomes/manuals can't increase ability scores without bound (now that they're actual increases rather than inherent bonuses).

To answer the question you meant: Primary ability scores are now effectively capped 5 points earlier in order to weaken SAD builds and classes, and in particular casters, with the eventual goal that they should not make the rest of the party useless.

Quote:
1) It will encourage PC's to have lower high ability scores, but it doesn't follow that, for example, a Wizard who cannot get a +5 Tome of Int would buy a +5 Tome of Wis instead of Pearls of Power or staves or similar.
Quote:
It seems more likely that highest scores will be lower and low scores will be unaffected.
The lowest and least important scores (e.g. WIS for a wizard) will indeed be unaffected. But the intermediate scores (DEX for a wizard, or WIS for a monk, or CON for anyone) will be increased.

Quote:
Why is this a design goal, anyway?
Because SAD classes are too strong as things stand, and MAD classes too weak.

Quote:
2)+34 to hit is ok for attacking a Balor, with AC 35 (really 39 due to at-will Unholy Aura) means your primary will hit on a 5. But your secondary needs a 10, your third attack needs a 15, and forget about your fourth attack. The wyrm black dragon also has a 39 AC. Is hitting with about two attacks a round in melee really enough to stand toe to toe with a dragon's 46/41/41/41/41/41 attack routine?
Probably not. That's where class features and feats (and of course the advantage of fighting 4 against 1) come in.

Quote:
Consider the Balor again. It swings at only 31/26/21/16 with a vorpal weapon and 30/25 with a flaming entangling whip. Hey, that whip calls for a Str check to resist it. The Balor has a 35 Str. Our 20th level fighter with ability caps cannot have more than 29 Str after a +6 item.
So the fighter only has a 34% chance to win the check (of course, if he fails he can try to escape again; hopefully he's gotten Resist Fire from the wizard or cleric). Meanwhile, the rest of the party's attacking the Balor (he's only got one whip.)

Also, the Balor needs to hit; with the right feat set (involving upcoming feats), that can be made highly unlikely (albeit at the cost of the fighter giving up his own to-hit.)

Also, keep in mind that under "normal" rules he can only get 5 better than that, so it's not such a big difference. Balors are tough enemies, usually requiring tactics and teamwork to beat.

Quote:
tl;dr You can hit once, but iteratives are hindered, and one attack a round at high levels is pretty garbage.
True, but Rage or feats will help quite a bit with that.

Quote:
3)What saves are based on secondary attributes?
All of them except Reflex for rangers and rogues and Will for divine casters.

Quote:
You don't have to be a wizard to stun. Monks can do it, there's a Sudden Stunning property in DMG II which Cha-based melee characters like
This is for Core. I.e. no DMG II.

Quote:
Clerics and Druids can probably stun thanks to so many spells to choose, some fighting style feats allow stunning, and the list goes on. Choose an affliction, and there are probably many ways to induce that in an opponent. Look at fear/intimidate optimization and you see the results of a condition track.
That usually assumes resources from splatbooks.
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Old 09-23-2011, 10:12 PM   Top  -  End  -  #27
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Yitzi, I think you missed my points in the post above your most recent one...
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Old 09-24-2011, 10:28 PM   Top  -  End  -  #28
Yitzi
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

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Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
Yitzi. You can't adjust the rules for PCs while completely ignoring the rules for monsters. It doesn't work that way. If you lower the power of every class while letting monsters stay just as powerful, the CR system falls completely out of whack.
But I'm not lowering the power of every class. So far I've done the casters (which are lowered), and a few overall changes (which lower them a bit); I have yet to do the fighter, the barbarian, the paladin, and the ranger, all of which get substantial boosts.

Quote:
Unless you can wear full plate, and more than half the classes can't, your AC will be 30 or less unless you're shapeshifting somehow. (10+10 for a +5 breastplate +3 Dex is 26 for a barbarian, 10+5 Class +10 Wis +5 Dex is 30 for a tank-monk, 10+9 for a +5 chain shirt +10 Dex is 29 for a rogue)
I'm planning to provide some new feats to help boost AC. But even so, the only classes that will really rely on AC to help them survive will be fighter, paladin, and cleric (and probably druid.) Wizards and sorcerers will have to rely on their allies and/or mobility, monks will rely on mobility, barbarians will rely on their hit points and DR, and rogues, bards to some extent, and rangers will rely on their hide checks (and also, in the case of rogues, on not staying in the fight after the first hit)

Quote:
This means, if you're getting full-attacked by a monster, you're going to get hit almost every time at higher levels. So how do you kill a monster? You have to nerf it somehow before you charge in.
There are a number of decent nerfs that casters can do with a decent chance of success. Nothing battle-winning, but Shaken or Sickened are some pretty decent debuffs.

Quote:
Now you're going to charge at a monster who was CR'ed with the intent of facing PCs capable of casting miracle, flesh to stone, and destruction, but with a 29 in two stats and your defensive spells killed, no Shock Trooper, no Heedless Charge, etc.
A 29 instead of a 34 isn't all that much worse. And there might not be a Shock Trooper, but there will be powerful feats to replace them.

Quote:
You know why non-Core exists? Because the MM is poorly designed. Because regeneration, DR, level-draining, rending, grappling, swallowing hole, and other things, are poorly designed. Because you're going to fight monsters as superhumans, when you need to be a monster to fight a monster.
How are all those things poorly designed? Most of them are relatively straightforward to counter, and the few exceptions I plan to make melee classes more powerful against. Not that grappling a Tarrasque will ever become a viable strategy, but against dragons it'll be quite feasible.

Quote:
If you want to kill the tarrasque with damage, you're doing it wrong. If you want to kill a dragon with damage, you're doing it wrong. Monsters are designed to be challenging to sub-optimized, equal to optimized, and devastating to unoptimized
The problem is that "optimization" seems to help out the casters more than anyone else, and that makes it no fun for non-casters who can't use non-Core.

Quote:
So by nerfing damage, by nerfing debuffs, by nerfing stats themselves without improving AC or weakening enemies, you're basically setting up higher level games to be completely unbalanced and challenging, requiring immense amounts of optimization from the players who can't optimize because there are limits on their power, when there are no such limits on monsters.
The monsters face the exact same limits; they just don't tend to use the same effects as often. (That said, the condition levels change will be a relief when fighting a basilisk.)

But overall, your post seems to be working on the assumption that what's been done so far is a representative sample of boosts and nerfs, while it's not (it has far more nerfs than boosts as compared to the completed version.)

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Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
Yitzi, I think you missed my points in the post above your most recent one...
That would be because I had started responding when you posted it. Dealt with now.
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Old 09-24-2011, 10:47 PM   Top  -  End  -  #29
NeoSeraphi
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Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

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But I'm not lowering the power of every class. So far I've done the casters (which are lowered), and a few overall changes (which lower them a bit); I have yet to do the fighter, the barbarian, the paladin, and the ranger, all of which get substantial boosts.
You did do the fighter. I was part of that thread. The feats you wrote didn't help at all. Don't you remember that math I used to prove that melee didn't need help hitting things? Though to be fair, that was using the Core-only inherent bonus, which you just removed, nerfing melee pretty hard.

Quote:
I'm planning to provide some new feats to help boost AC. But even so, the only classes that will really rely on AC to help them survive will be fighter, paladin, and cleric (and probably druid.) Wizards and sorcerers will have to rely on their allies and/or mobility, monks will rely on mobility, barbarians will rely on their hit points and DR, and rogues, bards to some extent, and rangers will rely on their hide checks (and also, in the case of rogues, on not staying in the fight after the first hit)
Hide checks do nothing against creatures with blindsight or tremorsense. If the character's only reasonable defense is stripped, then it's not a good system. And giving options to improve AC as feats, which most characters only get 7 of, is not a good option either. (See also: Dodge)

One of the classes who will need the AC boost most, the rogue, will not be able to take it because he needs to spend 3 feats on Two-Weapon Fighting and one on Weapon Finesse.

Mobility does not help the monk when he's provoking attacks of opportunity for moving in and attacking (Especially with his low AC) Skirmishers suck against creatures with reach (AKA: Half the monsters in the MM with a CR of 7 or higher)

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There are a number of decent nerfs that casters can do with a decent chance of success. Nothing battle-winning, but Shaken or Sickened are some pretty decent debuffs.
Shaken is not a "decent" debuff. A -2 penalty to all actions does not help against a creature with +30 to hit if a character's AC is 23. Same for sicken. Now, nausea and frighten, those are some decent debuffs.

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A 29 instead of a 34 isn't all that much worse. And there might not be a Shock Trooper, but there will be powerful feats to replace them.
I've seen your new fighter feats. They're not "powerful".

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How are all those things poorly designed? Most of them are relatively straightforward to counter, and the few exceptions I plan to make melee classes more powerful against. Not that grappling a Tarrasque will ever become a viable strategy, but against dragons it'll be quite feasible.
That's great. What I'm telling you now is that your current design has weakened melee. If you're going to change that, good. That was my intent. As it is now, most melee characters would die. Plain and simple.



Quote:
The monsters face the exact same limits; they just don't tend to use the same effects as often. (That said, the condition levels change will be a relief when fighting a basilisk.)
No they don't. They get to keep their ridiculous stats, insane natural armor, and high damage output from natural weapons. The Giant put it best

Let's turn the magic off. You're a human with 29 Int and 8 Str. While I? I am still a dragon.

And before you miss the point completely, the Anti-Magic Field in that comic is not literal. It's a metaphor for your conditions nerf.
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Last edited by NeoSeraphi : 09-24-2011 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 09-25-2011, 10:47 AM   Top  -  End  -  #30
Yitzi
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Default Re: General 3.5 Core balance fix (3.5 Core, PEACH)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
You did do the fighter. I was part of that thread. The feats you wrote didn't help at all.
That's why I rethought the whole idea of the fighter and have a completely different plan (focusing not on vertical power but horizontal power and the ability to change the rules), which is why I didn't use the old fighter fix in this one like I did for the monk/

Quote:
Hide checks do nothing against creatures with blindsight or tremorsense.
Most creatures with blindsight tend to ignore AC with their most powerful attacks as well; when fighting an Yrthak, things are of course going to be different than usual.

Tremorsense is more likely to be an issue, but note that it gives only the location (like blindsense does); it does not remove concealment. So the successful hide check will still give total concealment, for a 50% miss chance (25% if the enemy has Blind-Fight), which is pretty decent.

Quote:
And giving options to improve AC as feats, which most characters only get 7 of, is not a good option either. (See also: Dodge)
It'll help the fighter (who gets a lot more than 7) and the paladin (who under the new rules gets more), and maybe a few that can use it particularly well (note that it's not going to be static bonuses, but rather something more along the lines of Combat Expertise).

Quote:
One of the classes who will need the AC boost most, the rogue, will not be able to take it because he needs to spend 3 feats on Two-Weapon Fighting and one on Weapon Finesse.
Or he can ditch Two-Weapon Fighting, stay away from the enemy, and use ranged attacks. Or if he prefers he can go for Spring Attack so that he never ends his turn next to the enemy (this of course works a lot better with an ally who focuses on combat control). Naturally, this means that he won't be as useful in combat as a fighter or barbarian, but he's far more effective outside of combat (while rogues can't easily be strongly "optimized" in the normal sense, an optimally-played rogue is second only to an optimally-played bard in effectiveness.)

Or he can talk the party wizard into giving him Improved Invisibility, which gives him not only easy sneak-attacks and a much-needed boost to hit, but also 50% miss chance.

Quote:
Mobility does not help the monk when he's provoking attacks of opportunity for moving in and attacking (Especially with his low AC)
That's what Mobility and Spring Attack are for. And of course he can go after enemies that can't take effective attacks of opportunity, such as archers and casters.

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Skirmishers suck against creatures with reach (AKA: Half the monsters in the MM with a CR of 7 or higher)
True; the monk is somewhat of a niche class.

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Shaken is not a "decent" debuff. A -2 penalty to all actions does not help against a creature with +30 to hit if a character's AC is 23.
You shouldn't be facing something with +30 to hit (barring enemies with PC classes) until level 17 or 18 at the earliest, and by that point there's something seriously wrong if you can't push your AC well above 23.

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I've seen your new fighter feats.
That was the old version, which was based on the idea of changing bonuses. The new version is based more on the idea of changing the rules.

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That's great. What I'm telling you now is that your current design has weakened melee. If you're going to change that, good. That was my intent. As it is now, most melee characters would die. Plain and simple.
Probably, but not as badly as you imply. After all, the Tarrasque's attack, while powerful, is nothing that can't be survived for some time by a 20th level party with a few good buffs and some decent tactics, and Swallow Whole might look impressive but requires Improved Grab, which is countered by a level 4 spell.

Quote:
No they don't. They get to keep their ridiculous stats, insane natural armor, and high damage output from natural weapons. The Giant put it best

Let's turn the magic off. You're a human with 29 Int and 8 Str. While I? I am still a dragon.
As I said; the limits are technically the same, they just affect the PCs more. (Of course, so do the upcoming boosts.)

Quote:
And before you miss the point completely, the Anti-Magic Field in that comic is not literal. It's a metaphor for your conditions nerf.
And yet the dragon still waited until V separated him/herself from the party.
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