Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

[comicshorse]

Originally Posted by Axolotl

Really? I'd been getting that impression since Season one,that they're on a sight-seeing tour of the universe but we're just seeing the exciting parts. Midnight certainly gave me that impression. that they were used to just relaxing in alien resorts.

Yeah, in Season 1 episode 'BOOM TOWN' Rose tells Mickey that things aren't always like this, that mostly they just see fantastic sites and describes seeing a frozen ocean on an alien planet

[Friv]

Originally Posted by Kato

2) I'm with Eakin on the earlier discussion. Saving Old!Amy was the less bad decision and probably the one I'd made but still, they used her to save Y!A and they promised to save her (well, kind of) but thus ultimately abandoning her, if only to save Y!A. I'm not sure whether I'd had done something different but it was still somewhere between murder and mercy killing, not much arguing on that for me.
Though, I'll admit if you take that position any thing you do might be considered murder since you kill a million different futures for many different people... but with time travel it's something else.

I think the Doctor was with Eakin on the earlier discussion. This might not have been the worst thing he's ever done - he's done some pretty awful things - but it was a brutal, difficult decision to make, and he was clearly not happy about the need to make it.

Which is part of what made it both extremely dark and ultimately redemptive. The Doctor knew that he was doing something wrong in order to prevent something worse, and he regretted it even as he did it.

[Eakin]

Originally Posted by Friv

I think the Doctor was with Eakin on the earlier discussion. This might not have been the worst thing he's ever done - he's done some pretty awful things - but it was a brutal, difficult decision to make, and he was clearly not happy about the need to make it.

Which is part of what made it both extremely dark and ultimately redemptive. The Doctor knew that he was doing something wrong in order to prevent something worse, and he regretted it even as he did it.

I choose to believe that you are correct about the super genius Time Lord acknowledging my obvious correctness on this issue

Edit: Also "The Lodger" is an awesome episode and I'm really glad I re watched it before Craig returns next week

[KillianHawkeye]

Don't forget, people.

Rule #1: The Doctor lies.

[Reverent-One]

Originally Posted by thegurullamen

How often do you come face to face with alternate possibilities of yourself and have to condemn them to death? There's a huge difference between going down a different path and forcing someone else (and they are different people--the second the timeline split (i.e. when the doctor interfered with the Young!Amy red waterfall timeline directly), Old!Amy stopped being a possibility altogether because Young!Amy's experiences differed from Old!Amy's at that point, which would have led to a different Old!Amy altogether) into non-existence to save your own hide. For one thing, you don't bear the emotional damage from having to do that (and there would be damage--A LOT). For another, the alternate version of you would fight it for all they're worth because this never happened to them--it's not a part of who they are, and from their viewpoint, they are being needlessly eradicated. Killed. You can try to couch it in abstract and high-brow language involving paradoxes, time travel, probability and causality, but in that situation, it all strips away and just comes down to life vs. death and only in very rare circumstances would someone refrain from fighting for their life.

They do not see nonaddict!friend's life as a continuation of their own--he's a completely separate entity. A completely separate stream of consciousness, with different thoughts and experiences and memories. They aren't the same person, except for genes and a share timeline up until one very precise moment. In that moment, they became two separate beings. Granted, they never should have met, but that doesn't change the base point: they are separate and eradication is still death, for all intents and purposes.

And, if they were put in a situation like Amy's, where one is just as good as another, why wouldn't addict!friend try to take nonaddict!friend's place, by murder if necessary? It's self-preservation, instinct.

Which is why Old Amy's attitude isn't totally surprising, but so what? I never said Old Amy's attitude made no sense. For the Doctor, Rory, and Young Amy though, Old Amy is no more non-existent because they saw her than she was if they never had.

So, if the copied person sees it in such terms, so must the Doctor. He's no slouch on ethics or philosophy, so he knows the shaky moral ground he's on. Greater good and all of that, but there's no clear white-hat way out of this jam. It's blue and orange at its finest--who do you kill, if one must die?

What good reason can you provide for leaving your wife/one of your closest friends in a hell for over 30 years, especially after you promised to save her?

[Tiki Snakes]

Ignoring the tired old debate above for a minute;
In the most recent episode, there's a line that slips by all too quickly, regarding Rory's Fears or something similar, after which the Doctor calls him out on having just said it in past tense.

Anyone else catch that, or remember what was actually said? It seemed strangely important.

[Friv]

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

Ignoring the tired old debate above for a minute;
In the most recent episode, there's a line that slips by all too quickly, regarding Rory's Fears or something similar, after which the Doctor calls him out on having just said it in past tense.

Anyone else catch that, or remember what was actually said? It seemed strangely important.

Rory refers to his travels with the Doctor in the past tense, suggesting that, on some level, he no longer believes that he will continue doing so - either because he didn't trust the Doctor to save him, or because he didn't really want to be there anymore.

[KillianHawkeye]

Originally Posted by Friv

Rory refers to his travels with the Doctor in the past tense, suggesting that, on some level, he no longer believes that he will continue doing so - either because he didn't trust the Doctor to save him, or because he didn't really want to be there anymore.

Interesting... I thought it was more of him still thinking of The Doctor in the past tense, an accidental reference to his impending death.

[Raddish]

He said "After all the time I spent with you in the TARDIS, what was left to be scared of" Which perked my interest when I heard it.

I dunno what it means but I don't think it's him thinking of the Doctor in the past tense. Immediately after he denies saying it in past tense when the Doctor picks up in it too, so it has to be a subconscious thing at the very least.

[Sunken Valley]

Rory is referring to his travels with the doctor in the past tense because he's not scared of any who monster. He is scared of the legendary Granny Granger. She and her brutalism are the only thing that scares Rory.

But seriously, I think that line was one from an early script draft where Rory had a fear room that they forgot to cut.

[dehro]

Originally Posted by Sunken Valley

But seriously, I think that line was one from an early script draft where Rory had a fear room that they forgot to cut.

that's one hell of a logical jump...
I don't think that's the case, because the Dr picking up on it would have made it noticeable in post production..they wouldn't have left in a mistake as obvious as that.
whether it means more than Rory being tired of the Dr.'s antics and shoddy retirement plan, I don't really know..I'd like it if it did..but I'm not so sure.

[Kato]

I'd also go for him referring to an empty fear room or something to that extent, though I guess they didn't show it on purpose to keep things mysterious. But what could there possibly have been that Rory Williams would be afraid of? Chuck Norris?

[KillianHawkeye]

Originally Posted by Raddish

He said "After all the time I spent with you in the TARDIS, what was left to be scared of" Which perked my interest when I heard it.

I dunno what it means but I don't think it's him thinking of the Doctor in the past tense. Immediately after he denies saying it in past tense when the Doctor picks up in it too, so it has to be a subconscious thing at the very least.

I think it was the denial that made me think it was referring to The Doctor's death, actually.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm pretty sure it's going to turn out to be in some way relevant. It felt very much like the scene in the previous series with Amy, in the forest.

Also, as the Doctor left his Room 11, didn't he also say something like "Sleep Tight"?

[comicshorse]

He put a 'Do Not Disturb' sign on the door, don't remember him saying anything

[Tiki Snakes]

I went back and checked. Yeah, I'm imagining things now. :)

[dehro]

also..whose fear was the clown?

[Dienekes]

Originally Posted by Kato

But what could there possibly have been that Rory Williams would be afraid of? Chuck Norris?

Amy slowly dying alone in some parallel dimension.

Originally Posted by dehro

also..whose fear was the clown?

I don't think it was anyone's from the episode, most likely a left over from a former prisoner.

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by dehro

also..whose fear was the clown?

Everyone's. Freakin' clowns, man.

[Starscream]

Spoiler

Hey, I just read that by this weeks episode (the one with Craig and the Cybermen), 200 years will have passed for the Doctor since he left Amy and Rory back on earth.

So the Doctor is now as old as he's supposed to be when he "dies". I wonder if maybe this is a writers' joke about the fan disagreement over his age. Various offhand comments in the old series suggested that his age should be a couple centuries older than he has been giving it in the new series. Well, now it is.

I also wonder if they'll ever touch upon what he's been up to in the intervening years. We saw a few clips back in the first episode this season (gets painted nude by a nobleman's wife and escapes prison, fights during World War 2, cameos in a Laurel and Hardy film), and I imagine we can expect novels and things set during this period, since it seems too good an idea to pass up.

[Mkhaiwati]

Originally Posted by Starscream

Spoiler

Hey, I just read that by this weeks episode (the one with Craig and the Cybermen), 200 years will have passed for the Doctor since he left Amy and Rory back on earth.

So the Doctor is now as old as he's supposed to be when he "dies". I wonder if maybe this is a writers' joke about the fan disagreement over his age. Various offhand comments in the old series suggested that his age should be a couple centuries older than he has been giving it in the new series. Well, now it is.

I also wonder if they'll ever touch upon what he's been up to in the intervening years. We saw a few clips back in the first episode this season (gets painted nude by a nobleman's wife and escapes prison, fights during World War 2, cameos in a Laurel and Hardy film), and I imagine we can expect novels and things set during this period, since it seems too good an idea to pass up.

Spoiler

It was the Doctor that was killed at the Lake. It could not have been a ganger or the Tessalacsomething because he actually talked to River about future events and people, such as Jim the Fish (still building his dam). I doubt the Doctor could just lie about the shared adventures without tripping himself up. I suspect the main point of the finale would be the Doctor (or his companions) changing a fixed point in time (the doctors death) especially as the small people considered it a fixed point.

Minor issue with a previous episode is that the small people stopped with Hitler because it was too early in his timestream to give him Hell (they go after criminals at the end of their lifecycle.) but had no problem with a newly regenerated River Song.

[BRC]

Originally Posted by Mkhaiwati

Spoiler

It was the Doctor that was killed at the Lake. It could not have been a ganger or the Tessalacsomething because he actually talked to River about future events and people, such as Jim the Fish (still building his dam). I doubt the Doctor could just lie about the shared adventures without tripping himself up. I suspect the main point of the finale would be the Doctor (or his companions) changing a fixed point in time (the doctors death) especially as the small people considered it a fixed point.

Minor issue with a previous episode is that the small people stopped with Hitler because it was too early in his timestream to give him Hell (they go after criminals at the end of their lifecycle.) but had no problem with a newly regenerated River Song.

Spoiler

Maybe the rules are bent when the criminals they are after are time travelers themselves, since with a Time Traveler, it's harder to confirm where they are in their personal timeline/ the Tiny People were so eager to make such a big score that they jumped the gun.


As for Lake Silencio, I think that Moffat has confirmed that it WAS the Doctor (not a robo-duplicate, or a Fleshclone, or anything else), and that he DID die.

Basically, at this point, I think anything they do to get around that is going to be considered a Cop Out. If they go back in time and make it not happen, then Time Travel just becomes a Reset button, any other explanation is going to accuse Moffat of "Cheating" somehow.

[Jibar]

Originally Posted by Philistine

Everyone's. Freakin' clowns, man.

Ever since the first trailers for this series as a whole started they have shown that clown and I have spent every episode since worried and waiting.
Can I just say,
Thank GOD it was such a minor moment and his face wasn't made of aliens or anything.

[Sunken Valley]

Originally Posted by dehro

that's one hell of a logical jump...
I don't think that's the case, because the Dr picking up on it would have made it noticeable in post production..they wouldn't have left in a mistake as obvious as that.
whether it means more than Rory being tired of the Dr.'s antics and shoddy retirement plan, I don't really know..I'd like it if it did..but I'm not so sure.

No it's not a logic jump. In "The Doctor Dances" the Doctor says to Captain Jack "change of plan we don't need the bomb". There was no plan with the bomb, no mention of the use of the bomb and thus no need to change the plan for a bomb they don't need. Moff says that line is in there because nobody remembered to cut it.

And with regards to what Rory is scared of, I continue to promote my fan theory that Rory is scared of his Granny Granger: the only being in the universe more bad ass than him. She once killed a Dalek and a weeping angel by sucking on an egg!

And the Doctor's room: budget cuts, the very monster that put the time lord to sleep for decades.

[Androgeus]

Originally Posted by BRC

Spoiler

As for Lake Silencio, I think that Moffat has confirmed that it WAS the Doctor (not a robo-duplicate, or a Fleshclone, or anything else), and that he DID die.

Rule zero: Moffat lies.

(although I'll take his word on this, as I don't want a duplicate to have died for the Doctor, would make the season arc completely pointless)

[Thufir]

Originally Posted by Sunken Valley

No it's not a logic jump.

It's a logic jump if there are other perfectly valid explanations for the line which doesn't require such a mistake to have been made.

Originally Posted by Sunken Valley

the only being in the universe more bad ass than me.

Quite an ego you've got there. And I say this as a self-acknowledged narcissist.

[Sunken Valley]

Originally Posted by Thufir

Quite an ego you've got there. And I say this as a self-acknowledged narcissist.

Oh God, Did I say me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I meant him! Edit! Edit! Edit!

[Mukora]

Who exactly is this "Granny Granger" you keep mentioning? Did I miss something?

[Sunken Valley]

Originally Posted by Mukora

Who exactly is this "Granny Granger" you keep mentioning? Did I miss something?

Here in a series of false teasers (of which 5 have come true). Number 16. Behold granny Granger in her canonness.

Apologies for the mistake. I am not the most badass person in the universe. at all. That title belongs to Rory Williams and Granny Granger. I am however, the second best reviewer in this thread

[Dr. Simon]

Time for another one of these, I think.

Continuing my plan to post what I think to be the highlights of every season of Doctor Who, old and new.

For each series I'll try to choose 2, maybe 3 of what I consider to be the best stories, which may comprise any number of actual episodes (somewhere between 1-14, typically 4 or 6). Older Who is nearly always episodic, with NuWho most episodes are self-contained. Feel free to expand on my brief comments, agree, disagree etc. This is, after all, purely subjective.

Previous Posts:
Season One
Season Two
Season Three
Season Four

And now...

Season Five (1967-1968)
Second Doctor/Jamie/Victoria/Zoe

Tomb of the Cybermen – okay, so the cybermats are rubbish, but there is a great location shot near the start, and then there's that iconic scene of the cybermen emerging from hibernation, plus its one of the few Troughton stories where the whole thing exists intact rather than in photo-reconstruction form.

The Abominable Snowmen – a great Tibetan period location (well, North Wales, but hey), used imaginatively to give a great atmosphere, typical in the Troughton era of an isolated group under siege. Excellent voice acting by Wolfe Morris for Padmasambhava/The Great Intelligence. Shame the yeti look so cute. Best Quote – Jamie: Have you though up a clever plan, Doctor? Doctor: Yes Jamie, I believe I have. Jamie: What are you going to do? Doctor: Bung a rock at it!

The Web of Fear: The yeti again, although scarier. The first appearance of Lethbridge-Stewart. Atmospheric London Underground setting. Morally ambiguous characters. What’s not to love?

Honourable Mentions
The Ice Warriors – another iconic foe of the early Doctor(s) first appears here. It’s a fairly good story too, but the ones above are better for their coherence.

The Fury From The Deep – first appearance of the sonic screwdriver, actually being used as a screwdriver. The foam and cellophane are not so scary, but the characters Mr. Oak and Mr. Quill are extremely creepy.