Lets Invent some Tier 6s! PEACHers Encouraged!

[DracoDei]

The Clown needs lack of armor and shield proficiencies explicitly stated.


I don't have my ToB with me, but I guess I will give this a shot... may be noticably more powerful with Stone Dragon than with other disciplines.
Lesser Martialist

Hit points: 6+CON at first level, 1d6+CON at each level.

Skill points: (2+INT MOD)*4 at first level, 2+INT MOD at each level.
The Lesser Martialist’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance(Dex), Concentration(Con), Craft(Wis), and Swim (Str). Plus the associated skills for their two disciplines. If Ride is added to their skill list in this way, then Handle Animal(Cha) is also added. If either of their disciplines has any sort lance as an associated weapon, then both Ride(Dex) and (Handle Animal) is are added to their skill list. If either discipline would add a skill that is already on their basic skill list then then they instead gain 2 free ranks in that skill. If both selected disciplines have the same associated skill then they ALSO gain a SEPARATE 2 free ranks in that skill. In NO case does this allow the usual Character level +3 limitation on ranks to be exceeded.

Level	BAB	Fort.	Ref.	Will	Maneuvers Known	Maneuvers Readied	Stances	Special
1st	+0	+2	+0	+0	2	2	0	Difficult Re-stancing
2nd	+1	+3	+0	+0	3	2	0
3rd	+2	+3	+1	+1	3	2	1
4th	+3	+4	+1	+1	3	3	1
5th	+3	+4	+1	+1	4	3	1
6th	+4	+5	+2	+2	4	3	2
7th	+5	+5	+2	+2	4	4	2
8th	+6/1	+6	+2	+2	5	4	2
9th	+6/+1	+6	+3	+3	5	4	3
10th	+7/+2	+7	+3	+3	5	5	3
11th	+8/+3	+7	+3	+3	6	5	3
12th	+9/+4	+8	+4	+4	6	5	4
13th	+9/+4	+8	+4	+4	6	6	4
14th	+10/5	+9	+4	+4	7	6	4
15th	+11/+6/+1	+9	+5	+5	7	6	5
16th	+12/+7/+2	+10	+5	+5	7	7	5
17th	+12/+7/+2	+10	+5	+5	8	7	5
18th	+13/+8/+3	+11	+6	+6	8	7	6
19th	+14/+9/+4	+11	+6	+6	8	8	6
20th	+15/+10/+5	+12	+6	+6	9	8	6

Proficiencies: The Lesser Martialist is proficient with Light and Medium armor light and heavy shields (but not tower shields), and all simple melee weapons. In addition they are proficient with all the associated weapons of their disciplines, including the defensive uses of tower shields if tower shields are an associated WEAPON of either of their disciplines. If any weapon appears on the associated weapon list for both disciplines then they gain weapon focus for that weapon. If they select Stone Dragon or another discipline that discourages movement to an equal degree with the fact that several (all?) of Stone-Dragon's stances end if the martial initiator moves, then they also gain proficiency with tower shields and heavy armor.

Disciplines: At first level the Lesser Martialist selects two disciplines that they have access to. They must meet all special requirements of that discipline (Not true neutral for Devoted Spirit, Psionic power for Sleeping Goddess, non-lawful for Falling Anvil, etc). They add all associated weapons for their disciplines to their list of proficiencies and add the associated skills to their class skill list. This may have additional effects, check the appropriate section. The lesser martialist requires one minute of uninterrupted weapon exercises to recover an expended maneuver, however he may prepare any maneuver(s) at that are each least one less than the highest level maneuver he can initiate in more than one slot (but still one maneuver per slot), to allow him to use it more than once in a row (and this is necessary to use a maneuver more than once in most combats). Changing his mix of maneuvers prepared requires him to have no expended maneuvers and to perform five minutes of uninterrupted weapon exercises. Note that unlike most martial initiators, they MAY NOT swap out maneuvers known via this class at any level.These is the ONLY way maneuvers in these slots may be recovered or exchanged (specifically Adaptive Style has NO effect with this class).

Difficult Re-stancing: Unless the lesser martialist has at least 1 stance from a source other than this class, he requires a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity to change his stance (including entering a stance from not being in one), unless the stance would normally require longer than a full-round action to enter.

[dspeyer]

This looks too powerful, unless I've missed something. It still gets access to martial powers at full rate, and new powers almost as fast as a warblade. Adaptive style fixes the recovery, It adds up to powerful abilities usable almost consistently, probably T4.

[dspeyer]

Common Thug

It is humiliating for one of my talents to defeat such an opponent
-- Lusef Malpat, paladin who later fell due to excessive pride

level	fort	ref	wis	bab	special
1	2	0	0	1	swift appraisal
2	3	0	0	2	ugly (+1 intimidate, -2 diplomacy)
3	3	1	1	3	fighter bonus feat
4	4	1	1	4
5	4	1	1	5	stone dragon maneuver (2nd level)
6	5	2	2	6	ugly (+2 intimidate, -4 diplomacy)
7	5	2	2	7	sneak attack 1d6
8	6	2	2	8
9	6	3	3	9	fighter bonus feat
10	7	3	3	10	ugly (+3 intimidate, -6 diplomacy)
11	7	3	3	11	stone dragon maneuver (4th level)
12	8	4	4	12
13	8	4	4	13	sneak attack 2d6
14	9	4	4	14	ugly (+4 intimidate, -8 diplomacy)
15	9	5	5	15	fighter bonus feat
16	10	5	5	16
17	10	5	5	17	stone dragon maneuver (6th level)
18	11	6	6	18	ugly (+5 intimidate, -10 diplomacy)
19	11	6	6	19	sneak attack 3d6
20	12	6	6	20	genre savvy

Hit die: d8
Proficient with simple weapons and light armor
Skill Points: 2+int
Skills: Appraise, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge(local), Move Silently

Most of the class features are pretty self-explanatory, except:

swift appraise: in a standard action at a distance, determine the value of clothing or jewelry to plus/minus 50%

stone dragon maneuvers: select a single stone dragon maneuver of up to the level listed. You need not meet the prerequisites. You can use it once per encounter.

genre savvy: You've been burned (frozen, zapped, dissolved) too many times in the entry scenes of more powerful characters to fall for that any more. Whenever you prepare an ambush of a character with levels in a Tier 1-3 class or a CR >5 monster disguised as a humanoid, your scars itch.

[DracoDei]

Originally Posted by dspeyer

This looks too powerful, unless I've missed something. It still gets access to martial powers at full rate,

And not getting very many of them (especially when you take into account that you DON'T get to trade up) doesn't help much? Especially when you take into account that you have a REALLY bad recovery mechanic, especially with your highest level maneuver? (and you will only ever have ONE maneuver of the highest level after 5th level, which is when you get your first 2nd level maneuver)
But yeah, I could drop it down to 2/2/0 at 1st level. Do you think that would help?
[/quote]

Originally Posted by dspeyer

and new powers almost as fast as a warblade.

Nope. All ToB classes get replacement (at levels 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, etc) , which pushes them into the lead.

Originally Posted by dspeyer

Adaptive style fixes the recovery,

If you look at the rules for "Adaptive Style" I do believe you will see that it requires a level of SWORDSAGE... If I am misremembering I can specifically nix that.

Originally Posted by dspeyer

It adds up to powerful abilities usable almost consistently, probably T4.

Yeah, I thought it was probably too powerful...

[Phosphate]

Originally Posted by Noctis Vigil

I'm currently working on a T6 Psion, will post it when done.

Not too hard actually. Just make their power pool equal to their manifester level. Then remove broken low level stuff like Death Urge.

[Ziegander]

Originally Posted by dspeyer

Common Thug

This is also clearly not T6. It is certainly T5, if not T4. Full BAB, a not horrible list of class skills, some sneak attack, some stone dragon maneuvers, some bonus feats. Even the bonus to Intimidate can be useful. Even lowering the BAB to medium and losing the maneuvers feels like it would still be T5. Shrug.

[Noctis Vigil]

Elementalist

Spoiler

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Powers Known	Power Points/Day
1	+0	+0	+0	+2	Energy Ray	1
2	+1	+0	+0	+3		2
3	+1	+1	+1	+3		3
4	+2	+1	+1	+4		4
5	+2	+1	+1	+4		5
6	+3	+2	+2	+5	Energy Push	6
7	+3	+2	+2	+5		7
8	+4	+2	+2	+6		8
9	+4	+3	+3	+6		9
10	+5	+3	+3	+7		10
11	+5	+3	+3	+7		11
12	+6	+4	+4	+8	Energy Missile	12
13	+6	+4	+4	+8		13
14	+7	+4	+4	+9		14
15	+7	+5	+5	+9		15
16	+8	+5	+5	+10		16
17	+8	+5	+5	+10		17
18	+9	+6	+6	+11	Energy Burst	18
19	+9	+6	+6	+11		19
20	+10	+6	+6	+12		20

Hit Dice: d4
Skill Points: 2 + Intelligence Bonus per level
Class Skills: Autohypnosis (Wis), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Psicraft (Int)

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Elementalists are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor does not, however, interfere with the use of his power manifestation.

Powers: An Elementalist is limited to what powers they can manifest. An Elementalist’s ability to manifest powers is limited by the power points he has available, one point per level.

The powers he can manifest are determined by his level. At 1st level, the Elementalist knows Energy Ray as a first-level Elementalist power. At 6th level, they know Energy Push as a second-level Elementalist power. At 12th level, they know Energy Missile as a third-level Elementalist power. At 18th level, they know Energy Burst as a fourth-level Elementalist power. They do not learn any other powers, and those four powers compose the class's full power list.

To manifest a power, an Elementalist must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the power’s level. The Difficulty Class for saving throws against an Elementalist's powers is 10 + the power’s level + the Elementalist’s Intelligence modifier.

An Elementalist's manifester level goes up slowly, once every odd level (1 at 1st, 2 at third, et cetra).

This is a T6 Kineticist. I'm working on a T6 of the other 5 disciplines as well, plus other fun stuff (still working on my Ranger/Scout and Barbarian) so stay tuned!

I actually really like the Common Thug, but I think it rises above T6, sorry. Still, it's good enough you could flesh it out more and make it a viable goon class; I know I'd use it against my PCs when they hit a city.

[Phosphate]

The Elementalist is....a bit abusive, if you ask me

As in, too weak even for Tier 6. I mean, the samurai is also T6 and arguably much, MUCH stronger.

What I'm saying is that it has no gestalting value whatsoever.

[Hanuman]

Housecat
"Meow" -Housecat

-Is a housecat

----------

This class can go toe to toe with any tier 6 on the block.

[DracoDei]

Reduced maneuvers known/readied by 1 each on the Lesser Martialist. It still might be a higher tier but I am taking this one step at a time...
Should I make it one discipline instead of two?
Are we assuming Age of Warriors rule about being able to add a new discipline for 1,000 XPs? That could makea big difference at later levels especially if we cut them back to 1 discipline to start with.
How much would 2/3's (minimum 1) initiator progression help?

[Jade Dragon]

Originally Posted by DracoDei

If you look at the rules for "Adaptive Style" I do believe you will see that it requires a level of SWORDSAGE... If I am misremembering I can specifically nix that.

No. By strict RAW, it requires warblade, swordsage, or crusader level 1st. By RAMS, it requires one level in a martial adept class.

Even without Adaptove Style, with the stances it's still tier 5 at the minimum.

[Noctis Vigil]

Originally Posted by Phosphate

The Elementalist is....a bit abusive, if you ask me

As in, too weak even for Tier 6. I mean, the samurai is also T6 and arguably much, MUCH stronger.

What I'm saying is that it has no gestalting value whatsoever.

I would have pegged Samurai as T5. Are we talking the same class (the one found in Complete Warrior)?

As for power level, I didn't want it to overshoot the tier barrier, but if someone else thinks it's too weak I can buff it a little. Maybe give it more PP a day or something.

[Amechra]

They already get extra pp from having a high intelligence modifier, and Expanded Knowledge can get them more stuff.

The Elementalist is stronger than you think; Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct) at 6th level would be a lovely boost...

Dang, I just noticed that they have 1/3 manifesting level; I would suggest raising that to 1/2, just because it comes out a little nicer, in my mind (and they wouldn't be able to manifest 4th level powers with a manifester level of 6. Sorry.)

[Ziegander]

Originally Posted by Treblain

I don't think it's possible, since even a Tier 6 class has the ability to take Martial Study as many times as they want.

So, because a Tier 6 class can take a feat to gain a maneuver, giving something a maneuver as part of their class automatically makes them higher than Tier 6? That is [Vulcan]highly illogical[/Vulcan].

THE SELF-DEFENSE ENTHUSIAST

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d6

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special	M. Ready	Stances
1st	+0	+0	+2	+0	Discipline Study	1	0
2nd	+1	+0	+3	+0		1	0
3rd	+2	+1	+3	+1		1	0
4th	+3	+1	+4	+1		1	0
5th	+3	+1	+4	+1	Discipline Study	1	0
6th	+4	+2	+5	+2		1	0
7th	+5	+2	+5	+2		2	0
8th	+6/+1	+2	+6	+2		2	1
9th	+6/+1	+3	+6	+3		2	1
10th	+7/+2	+3	+7	+3	Discipline Study	2	1
11th	+8/+3	+3	+7	+3		2	1
12th	+9/+4	+4	+8	+4		2	1
13th	+9/+4	+4	+8	+4		2	1
14th	+10/+5	+4	+9	+4		2	1
15th	+11/+6/+1	+5	+9	+5	Discipline Study	2	1
16th	+12/+7/+2	+5	+10	+5		2	2
17th	+12/+7/+2	+5	+10	+5		2	2
18th	+13/+8/+3	+6	+11	+6		3	2
19th	+14/+9/+4	+6	+11	+6		3	2
20th	+15/+10/+5	+6	+12	+6	Discipline Study	3	2

Class Skills: (2 + Int modifier) Craft, Profession, and Swim (see also Discipline Study).

Weapon & Armor Proficiency
A Self-Defense Enthusiast is proficient with no armors or shields (see also Discipline Study).

Discipline Study
Having spent some time at the local dojo you have started your training in a martial discipline. You begin play with the knowledge of a single maneuver from the martial discipline of your choice. You have an initiator level equal to half your class levels rounded up.

Upon choosing this maneuver you may never choose maneuvers from another discipline unless they are of a level from which you have learned all of the maneuvers of your chosen discipline. You are also proficient with all simple melee weapons associated with the discipline and add the key skill of the discipline to your list of class skills.

At 5th level and every five levels thereafter you learn an additional maneuver from your chosen discipline.

Maneuvers Readied
You may ready your only known maneuver at 1st level, but as you advance in level and learn more maneuvers you must choose which of your maneuvers to ready. You ready your maneuvers by exercising and practicing with your sensei at the local dojo for 1 hour. These maneuvers remain readied until you decide to exercise and change them.

A maneuver once readied is unexpended until it is used. Once expended a maneuver cannot be used again until it is recovered, a process that is different for all martial initiators. To recover your maneuvers you must spend 10 minutes in rest, refreshing your muscles and gathering your thoughts. Each 10 minutes of rest recovers all of your expended maneuvers. Unlike other martial initiators you do not automatically regain the use of your maneuvers at the start of each encounter.

Stances Known
You do not begin play knowing any stances. At 8th level you learn your first stance, and it must be a stance from your chosen discipline. When you do you may also choose a martial melee weapon associated with your discipline and gain proficiency with it.

Unlike manuevers, stances are not expended, and you do not have to ready them. All the stances you know are available to you at all times, and you can change the stance you are currently using as a swift action. At 16th level you learn an additional stance from your chosen discipline.

[flabort]

Ouch. That, could be a T6 initiator.
I see the challenge has been accepted three times. Although, this latest one is closest, I think.

[NeoSeraphi]

I have a challenge! Can anyone make a tier 6 artificer?

[Ziegander]

Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi

I have a challenge! Can anyone make a tier 6 artificer?

I think I can. I'll give it a try shortly.

The Craftwright

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d4

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special	Craft Level	Craft Reserve
1st	+0	+0	+0	+0	Skill Focus (Craft)	--	--
2nd	+1	+0	+0	+0	Savvy Marketer	--	--
3rd	+1	+1	+1	+1	Efficient Craftsman	--	--
4th	+2	+1	+1	+1	Craft Magic Arms & Armor	1st	10
5th	+2	+1	+1	+1		1st	20
6th	+3	+2	+2	+2		1st	30
7th	+3	+2	+2	+2		1st	40
8th	+4	+2	+2	+2	Brew Potion	2nd	50
9th	+4	+3	+3	+3		2nd	75
10th	+5	+3	+3	+3		2nd	100
11th	+5	+3	+3	+3		2nd	125
12th	+6/+1	+4	+4	+4	Craft Wondrous Item	3rd	150
13th	+6/+1	+4	+4	+4		3rd	200
14th	+7/+2	+4	+4	+4		3rd	250
15th	+7/+2	+5	+5	+5		3rd	350
16th	+8/+3	+5	+5	+5	Forge Ring	4th	450
17th	+8/+3	+5	+5	+5		4th	600
18th	+9/+4	+6	+6	+6		4th	750
19th	+9/+4	+6	+6	+6		4th	1000
20th	+10/+5	+6	+6	+6	Tireless Craftsman	4th	1250

Class Skills (4 + Int modifier): Appraise, Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Knowledge (Arcane), Knowledge (Local), Profession, Speak Language, and Spellcraft.

Weapon & Armor Proficiency
A Craftwright is proficient with one simple weapon and with no armor or shields.

Skill Focus
At 1st level a Craftwright receives Skill Focus for the Craft skill as a bonus feat.

Savvy Marketer (Ex): Starting at 2nd level a Craftwright may sell items to other merchants for 75% of their purchase price rather than 50% and may buy items at a 5% discount.

Efficient Craftsman (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a Craftwright is able to buy raw materials for crafting any item at a 25% discount (this doesn't stack with Savvy Marketer) and reduces the time needed to craft any item by 25%.

Craft Level
Beginning at 4th level a Craftwright is able to craft magic items without needing a caster level and without knowing any of the required spells as long as those spells aren't of a level above the Craft Level given in the table above. This ability allows the Craftwright to craft alchemical items as if he were a spellcaster.

He must still have the corresponding Item Creation Feats to do so, and because he does not actually know any spells he may not use the Scribe Scroll feat to create magic scrolls.

He may not craft items that require divine spells.

Craft Reserve
A 4th level Craftwright has a reserve of points that he may use in place of the XP needed to craft items, exchanging craft reserve points for XP on a one-for-one basis.

Bonus Feats
A Craftwright gains Craft Magic Arms & Armor as a bonus feat at 4th level, Brew Potion as a bonus feat at 8th level, Craft Wondrous Item as a bonus feat at 12th level, and Forge Ring as a bonus feat at 16th level. He doesn't need to meet the prerequisites for these feats.

Tireless Craftsman (Ex): A 20th level Craftwright is immune to exhaustion, fatigue, and sleep effects. He no longer needs to eat or sleep as long as he is crafting an item.

[Veklim]

Pretty easy I would have thought. Take away the infusions and replace with something more akin to a magic weapon/vestment type x/day ability, and give them a few of the lower end item creation feats. Reduce to poor BAB and you're pretty much there.

[erikun]

Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi

I have a challenge! Can anyone make a tier 6 artificer?

Sure, that shouldn't be too hard.

Arcana Crafter

Spoiler

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special
1	+0	+0	+0	+0	Magical Crafting, Scribe Scroll
2	+1	+0	+0	+0
3	+1	+1	+1	+1	Brew Potion
4	+2	+1	+1	+1
5	+2	+1	+1	+1
6	+3	+2	+2	+2	Craft Wand
7	+3	+2	+2	+2
8	+4	+2	+2	+2
9	+4	+3	+3	+3	Craft Magic Arms And Armor
10	+5	+3	+3	+3
11	+5	+3	+3	+3
12	+6	+4	+4	+4	Craft Wondrous Item
13	+6	+4	+4	+4
14	+7	+4	+4	+4
15	+7	+5	+5	+5	Craft Rod
16	+8	+5	+5	+5
17	+8	+5	+5	+5
18	+9	+6	+6	+6	Craft Staff
19	+9	+6	+6	+6
20	+10	+6	+6	+6	Forge Ring

Hit Dice: d4
Skill Points: 2 + Intelligence Bonus per level
Class Skills: Craft (any, taken seperately), Knowledge (Local), Search, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device

Magical Crafting
An Arcana Crafter may craft magical items, despite the inability to cast spells. The Arcana Craft is treated as having half their class level in any other class for purposes of spells known for item creation, and must have (class level * 2 - 1) in order to create an item using a spell.

If the spell would normally call for an XP component or material component with a given gold value, the Arcana Craft must provide pay for the components as if they were casting the spell.

The unusual (class level * 2 - 1) is there to prevent the class from making, say, 6th level spell scrolls at first level thanks to the Sublime Chord PrC. I'm honestly not sure how the actual Artificer handles that, and so may have a better solution.

Simply put: The class has no skills, no combat utility, and no reserve XP. They must make everything they want to use, and only have an effective half-caster level when crafting stuff.

[dspeyer]

Lesser Martialist: at level twenty, this enters an encounter able to perform 2 9th level maneuvers and an 8th level maneuver many times. They can be chosen from good disciplines. That's too good for T6, even if everything else about the class sucks.

Common Thug: I tried to make it a clunkier version of the fighter, which is T5. I guess it works together a little better than I thought. I'll tweak it.

Meanwhile, all this violence has inspired me.

Wretched Coward

level	fort	ref	wis	bab	special
1	2	2	0	0	basic paranoia
2	3	3	0	1
3	3	3	1	1
4	4	4	1	2
5	4	4	1	2	run away!
6	5	5	2	3
7	5	5	2	3
8	6	6	2	4
9	6	6	3	4
10	7	7	3	5	greater paranoia
11	7	7	3	5
12	8	8	4	6
13	8	8	4	6
14	9	9	4	7
15	9	9	5	7	get me out of here!
16	10	10	5	8
17	10	10	5	8
18	11	11	6	9
19	11	11	6	9
20	12	12	6	10	scream and beg

Hit die: d8
Class Skills: climb, diplomacy, listen, jump, spot, swim
Skills: 2+int
Weapons: none
Armor/Shields: all, including tower shields

basic paranoia -- you may make listen checks at no penalty while sleeping

run away! -- add 10 ft to all movement speeds when going away from danger

greater paranoia -- +4 on will saves against charm effects, because you know everyone is really out to get you

get me out of here! -- +5 morale bonus to climb jump or swim checks to avoid danger

scream and beg -- Any intelligent creature that hears you scream for help or beg for mercy understands you, regardless of common language. They do not feel any special inclination to do so, however.

[Ziegander]

My version is up in my post above. To be honest, Erikun's version is probably... Tier 4. Maybe even Tier 3. It can cast spells from scrolls, wands, and staffs without ever needing UMD and it has access to spells up to 5th level from all class lists. A bit too powerful in my opinion. That's why I limited my version's direct spell access to just Potions. The spell access is much more powerful than the craft reserve.

[erikun]

Originally Posted by Ziegander

It can cast spells from scrolls, wands, and staffs without ever needing UMD and it has access to spells up to 5th level from all class lists.

Only for the purposes of crafting, though. It still requires UMD to use any magical items.

[Ziegander]

Originally Posted by erikun

Only for the purposes of crafting, though. It still requires UMD to use any magical items.

Hmm. Needs to be worded better then. If it knows the spells, then it can use them from items without making UMD checks.

And even if it has to UMD them it still has 5th level spells from every list and has direct spell access in many forms.

[erikun]

Originally Posted by Ziegander

Hmm. Needs to be worded better then. If it knows the spells, then it can use them from items without making UMD checks.

And even if it has to UMD them it still has 5th level spells from every list and has direct spell access in many forms.

I'm not sure how the official class handled it, so I think I'll leave it in its current (poorly worded) state until I have a better idea of how to correct it.

And I notice I'm not the only one who decided to give it all bad saves. It's a craftsman, not a combatant! Why should it be good at combat?

[Jade Dragon]

Originally Posted by erikun

And I notice I'm not the only one who decided to give it all bad saves. It's a craftsman, not a combatant! Why should it be good at combat?

You should give it good reflex and fortitude saves, improved mettle, and improved evasion. All those failed expiriments...

But then it would be tier 5.

[erikun]

Originally Posted by Jade Dragon

You should give it good reflex and fortitude saves, improved mettle, and improved evasion. All those failed expiriments...

The Rincewind

Spoiler

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special
1	+0	+2	+2	+2	Movement Speed +10, May not Multiclass
2	+1	+3	+3	+3	Improved Mettle
3	+1	+3	+3	+3	Improved Evasion
4	+2	+4	+4	+4	Movement Speed +20
5	+2	+4	+4	+4
6	+3	+5	+5	+5
7	+3	+5	+5	+5	Movement Speed +30
8	+4	+6	+6	+6
9	+4	+6	+6	+6
10	+5	+7	+7	+7	Movement Speed +40
11	+5	+7	+7	+7
12	+6	+8	+8	+8
13	+6	+8	+8	+8	Movement Speed +50
14	+7	+9	+9	+9
15	+7	+9	+9	+9
16	+8	+10	+10	+10	Movement Speed +60
17	+8	+10	+10	+10
18	+9	+11	+11	+11
19	+9	+11	+11	+11	Movement Speed +70
20	+10	+12	+12	+12

Hit Dice: d6
Class Skills: Rincewind is unskilled at everything

[dspeyer]

Common Thug, version 2

level	fort	ref	wis	bab	special
1	2	0	0	1	swift appraisal
2	3	0	0	2	stone dragon maneuver (1st level)
3	3	1	1	3
4	4	1	1	4	Improved Unarmed Strike
5	4	1	1	5	stone dragon maneuver (2nd level)
6	5	2	2	6
7	5	2	2	7	Dodge
8	6	2	2	8	stone dragon maneuver (3rd level)
9	6	3	3	9
10	7	3	3	10	Weapon Focus (choose one weapon)
11	7	3	3	11	stone dragon maneuver (4th level)
12	8	4	4	12
13	8	4	4	13	Mobility
14	9	4	4	14	stone dragon maneuver (5th level)
15	9	5	5	15
16	10	5	5	16	Combat Expertise
17	10	5	5	17	stone dragon maneuver (6th level)
18	11	6	6	18
19	11	6	6	19	Improved Feint
20	12	6	6	20	genre savvy

Weapon Proficiencies: Unarmed Strike, Dagger,Club, Spear, Javelin, Sap
Armor Proficiencies: None

Otherwise unchanged.

[dspeyer]

Originally Posted by erikun

Class Skills: Rincewind is unskilled at everything

Speak Language, surely?

And he's pretty good at Knowledge(arcana), Knowledge (the planes), and Craft (bookbinding), but those don't fit the class so much.

[Jade Dragon]

Originally Posted by erikun

The Rincewind

Spoiler

Hit Dice: d6
Class Skills: Rincewind is unskilled at everything

Give it DR 10/- per class level, immunity to all energy types, a constant Death Ward as an (Ex) ability, and d12 hit die.

It'll be useless, but unkillable. The thing you play when people complain you're a power gamer because you're dealing 40 damage at level
10.

[dspeyer]

All things have their opposites. This is the opposite of the common thug.

The Aesthete

Just as modern cuisine allows food to transcend nutrition, so do I allow violence to transcend such banal matters as victory.

level	fort	ref	will	bab	strikes known	counters known	counters set
1	0	2	0	0	2	0	0
2	0	3	0	1	2	0	0
3	1	3	1	1	2	1	1
4	1	4	1	2	2	1	1
5	1	4	1	2	3	1	1
6	2	5	2	3	3	1	1
7	2	5	2	3	3	2	1
8	2	6	2	4	3	2	1
9	3	6	3	4	4	2	1
10	3	7	3	5	4	2	2
11	3	7	3	5	4	3	2
12	4	8	4	6	4	3	2
13	4	8	4	6	5	3	2
14	4	9	4	7	5	3	2
15	5	9	5	7	5	4	2
16	5	10	5	8	5	4	2
17	5	10	5	8	6	4	2
18	6	11	6	9	6	4	2
19	6	11	6	9	6	4	3
20	6	12	6	10	6	4	3

Hit Die: d4
Class Skills: Balance, Martial Lore, Perform, Tumble
Skill Points: 2+int
Weapons: unarmed strike, nunchuku, falcion, kama
Armor: none
Martial Disciplines: Desert Wind, Setting Sun

An aesthete does not swap out maneuvers at even levels the way a normal martial character does, nor does he learn boosts or stances, nor ready and expend maneuvers.

Strikes: When an aesthete chooses to strike, he ignores tactics and selects the most option. Unfortunately, aesthetes have no taste, so in practice he chooses randomly from all strikes he knows. If the strike is impossible under the current circumstances, he wastes the remainder of his turn flourishing his weapon ineffectively.

Counters: An aesthete cannot decide to activate a counter. Instead, he sets them. Once a counter is set, he *must* execute it when the relevant condition occurs. Starting at 10th level, he can set multiple counters simultaneously. If the relevant conditions for multiple set counters occur simultaneously, none are activated.