The Definitive Guide to the Tippyverse, By Emperor Tippy

[Gavinfoxx]

Things that can enable spells to be cast on a population:

1.) Eternal Wands, from Magic Item Compendium. They have a little bit of an extra surcharge on them from the DMG formula, but gives 2/day casting of spells levels 1-3.

2.) Magical traps using the DMG rules for recharge and stuff. Note that if you want precedent for magical traps that are beneficial, look at the Boon traps in Dungeonscape.

3.) Drow House Insignia sorts of items, explained in the book Races of Faerun, pg 175. They were updated to be more pricey in Drow of the Underdark. This gives a specific form, 1/day limitation, and certain spell levels, I think 1-3.

4.) Minor Schema, from the book Magic of Eberron (A way to cast spells lvl 1-6, once a day. Further, these work better for Artificers, who can apply their class features to this. If An Artificer makes a Schema of Wall of Iron, and he has a Lesser Rod of Invisible Spell, he could -- for example -- make Invisible Iron...)

5.) Generic wondrous items that cast spells, per the DMG/SRD rules for custom magic items.

6.) Spell Turrets, from Dungeon Master's Guide II

7.) Spell clocks, from here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...cmp=ILC-RSSDND

Remember to consider the rules regarding combining multiple magic items in one item in the DMG!

[Qwertystop]

Possibly there would be lots of extradimensional spaces (whatever the biggest one is) with Bottles of Air in them, each space containing a small farm. The biggest thing the traps are for is food, so that the population of a city doesn't have to be spread out over a lot of farmland.

[Emperor Tippy]

Originally Posted by Calintares

How would the Tippyverse function without self-resetting traps?

Just fine. You have highly efficient farms (either on demiplanes or in the ideal growing areas on the material plane) that are protected much like the cities and worked by constructs with casters providing the various farm improvement spells, food delivered by teleport circle.

Other than that they are pretty much like any other D&D city except with a much larger population.

[Heliomance]

So Teleport Circle is, in your opinion, the only thing that warps a setting enough to need to rewrite it on this scale?

[Emperor Tippy]

Originally Posted by Heliomance

So Teleport Circle is, in your opinion, the only thing that warps a setting enough to need to rewrite it on this scale?

Yes and no.

Teleport Circle (or analogs, i.e. permanent Gate) warp the world far more obviously and directly than most other magics because they have such a fundamental and widespread effect on a very large number of people. Trade is the life blood of the world. Make it easier and more centralized and it will have a major effect. Combine that with a drastic alteration to the basic military situation (logistics are massively simplified, ambushes become effectively impossible, strategic surprise is actually possible and easily achieved) and you will irrevocably alter the world.

Other magic can have a massive effect but much of it is understated. For example, permanent telepathic bonds allow instantaneous secure teleportation between any two people no matter where they are on a plane. Most any ruler should keep one half of a TB pair in their capital while the other half of a pair is sent out to a military unit/base. Rapid, instant, secure communication between any two units is a major alteration. Comparable to the real world before and after satellite communications, for example.

The same thing can be done with Ring Gates. Combine a Ring Gate with a bag of holding and you can pass 2,500 pounds of goods to someone a hundred miles away instantly. Nest Bags of holding and you can move an entire army like that.

Magic traps will drastically alter a world even without TC's, the list of ways they would do so is incredibly long though.

Divination magics being used in a systemic way would alter the world in a manner that is almost impossible to predict. Just think about the real world? How would humanity react if tomorrow it became possible to accurately and cheaply predict the future?

The various mind reading magics are almost a potential game changer. Although admittedly much less of one as Mind Rape is relatively rare. But even Detect Thoughts is potentially a huge thing.

[Sunken Valley]

What about mind control? even with the will save, you could crush a king's mind at a high level with dominate monster.

Animate dead. An undead army is broken. Would put cleaners out of work.

Commune, Divination, speak with dead etc. Puts detectives out of work.

How come these can't warp a world like that circle can.

Oh and finally:

Tippy=Win

[Emperor Tippy]

Originally Posted by Sunken Valley

What about mind control? even with the will save, you could crush a king's mind at a high level with dominate monster.

Why do you think that virtually all of the leadership are level 20 casters of various sorts? And everyone of them has mind blank up 24/7.

Mind Control is a definite concern for the various groups in game. Some of the leadership go so far as to have a Craft Contingent Wish on them set to activate 5 hours after they are hit with Mind Rape and with the effect of restoring their previous memories.

Animate dead. An undead army is broken. Would put cleaners out of work.

Undead armies are mostly meh. Even the classic Wraith Apocalypse isn't a real threat to the cities

Commune, Divination, speak with dead etc. Puts detectives out of work.

None of which work reliable inside the cities thanks to being covered in permanent Mage's Private Sanctums, most crimes being committed by people with Mind Blank up, and the Weirdstones.

How come these can't warp a world like that circle can.

They all would warp it, how much is variable.

Mind Control of the leadership is possible but the only real safe and secure way to take over someone long term is Mind Rape. And that's a 9th level spell. So yeah, a level 17+ character can take over a kingdom relatively simply, but that's nothing special at that point.

Most royal guards are going to have permanent Detect Magic on them, if not Arcane Sight. They will see the mind control magic (short of Mind Rape) and then it's just a matter of a Break Enchantment to solve the problem.

Undead armies are relatively weak and easy to deal with (short of the self replicating forms), construct armies are a bigger threat.

And I already mentioned divination's are being something that would drastically alter the world on their own. However, predicting that is far more difficult because we don't even really have a basic frame work to start from.

[Eric Tolle]

Originally Posted by Mnemnosyne

In a population of millions in a single city, I don't think inbreeding and incest is an issue that would ever come up.

In addition, with the large-scale trade that's part of the setting, you're going to get genetic mixing and transfer between cities. After all, it's far easier to travel then in your standard extruded fantasy product setting.

With travel so easy and fast, tourism and emmigration will likely be even more common than in the real world- and heck, even medieval Europe had tourists.

[Yahzi]

I was going to make another arguement for Forbiddance, but realized it didn't help.

So I just want to say - very cool idea, Tippy.

I have two house rules that prevent the Tippyverse, but even with that, the multiplying effects of magic, levels, and time means that the world looks a lot like the Thousand Points of Light.

Which is cool, because that's what D&D is supposed to look like. Vance's Dying Earth was like that (aside from the fact that it was really a Thousand Points of Dark, since each individual city-state tended to be pretty rotten. )

[Piggy Knowles]

I also tend to agree that undead armies are meh, but I feel like mostly discounting Animate Dead's potential impact on a society is unfair.

To me, Animate Dead provides an unlimited and unerring source of labor. Zombies have an almost negligible cost to create, don't eat, sleep or breathe, and will follow simple instructions endlessly. Basically, any repetitive mundane task could probably be done by a zombie for 25gp worth of onyx...

[Menteith]

What simple repetitive task still exists, though? The economy of TV is a service based industry with spells/magic items, knowledge, and other unique skills being the only true valuables. Inside of the Cities, I don't see a serious use for a mindless, slow working (relative to Fabricate or other magic), creature that requires you to have a generous supply of corpses(which, depending on social norms, is a little gauche). Outside of the cities, I'd agree with you. I could certainly see a Necrocracy in the uncivilized wilds that is run with mindless undead being the underlying technology, but there are far more advanced and cost effective ways of production that eliminate that necessity in the Cities.

It's likely trying to compare horseback riding to an airplane. Both are means of transportation that can effectively move you from west coast to east coast (in America). The horse takes less money to produce and maintain. The industry/technology capable of using an airplane requires enormous amounts of money and time. People still don't ride horses because it's horridly inefficient.

[Tyndmyr]

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

I would be very leery of allowing uses of Wish that aren't explicitly part of its power, because they come down to DM prerogative on whether they work, and it's not strictly RAW what happens either way. Monkeypawing is too easy.



Also - even if you have 1000 people using a TC in a round... what are conditions like on the other side? I can't even imagine the logistical nightmare that'd develop, but stampeding, crushing, and massive and unnecessary loss of life would almost surely ensue if you actually tried this in real life.

That is...a bit excessive, but yes, it would be entirely reasonable to have an army formed up into ranks, marching through. You could easily have four abreast marching per rank in a ten foot space...squeezing in D&D terms. The exact number can be quibbled over, and depends on a few variables, but regardless, a LOT of people can be moved through a TC very rapidly. Enough that the details are mostly irrelevant for arriving at the conclusion that TCs are the way to go whenever possible for invasions.

Im actually rather happy to find out that my image of the tippyverse is closer to the original than the mindrape one.

[Piggy Knowles]

Originally Posted by Menteith

What simple repetitive task still exists, though? The economy of TV is a service based industry with spells/magic items, knowledge, and other unique skills being the only true valuables.

Small scale? Turning cranks, moving things from place to place within cities or farms (ie, small and specific movement that is too inefficient to use teleportation circles for), mining hard minerals, that sort of thing.

Large scale? Undead computer. I think the original suggestion was on 4chan and NSFW, but basically, create a chain of undead with "If X then Y" style logic commands to make a giant, undead computer.

[Menteith]

Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles

Small scale? Turning cranks, moving things from place to place within cities or farms (ie, small and specific movement that is too inefficient to use teleportation circles for), mining hard minerals, that sort of thing.

Small-scale movement is the only legitimate use I see of these. There's no need for a mindless creature to operate a control crank, and no need for an endlessly turning crank (that I can see). What on earth would they be mining for that can't be produced on a massive scale through magic? Even if there's a substance that can't be Fabricated, a reasonably leveled caster should be able to strip mine a site fairly quickly - certainly faster than individuals with picks or even their bare hands.

Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles

Large scale? Undead computer. I think the original suggestion was on 4chan and NSFW, but basically, create a chain of undead with "If X then Y" style logic commands to make a giant, undead computer.

That's actually really interesting. If they had the capacity to line up a working, creature-based computer though, why wouldn't they use constructs or traps? Both of those options are possible, more durable, and could have their bodies specifically designed to function in a computer.

[Emperor Tippy]

The most common place to see undead in the cities is as bodyguard for high level casters who are neutral or evil.

Shapechange into a Dread Wraith, kill somebody with your Constitution Drain (Su) and they return as a Wraith permanently under your command that doesn't count against the HD limit for commanding undead.

I prefer Incarnum Wraiths though as they have a perfect fly speed (instead of good), don't suffer from daylight powerlessness, can't cause a Wraith apocalypse (only creates another Wraith if it kills someone with an Essentia pool), and look cooler.

[Deth Muncher]

Hey Tippy, I had a question: What incentive is there, ever, for PCs to leave a city? Or city network, that is - I mean really, if each city is its own highly functioning, self sustainable microcosm, then why would anyone leave?

Or rather, what incentives have you given players to leave the towns in this setting? I could, I guess, see the standard fare of "go check out a ruined city" or "go invade this other city" or even some sort of political intrigue, if that's your speed, but unless the PCs are just kind of born with the "Wanderer's Itch", there would be no real reason for anyone to ever leave the well-protected microcosm of their city.

[Rubik]

Originally Posted by Deth Muncher

Hey Tippy, I had a question: What incentive is there, ever, for PCs to leave a city? Or city network, that is - I mean really, if each city is its own highly functioning, self sustainable microcosm, then why would anyone leave?

Or rather, what incentives have you given players to leave the towns in this setting? I could, I guess, see the standard fare of "go check out a ruined city" or "go invade this other city" or even some sort of political intrigue, if that's your speed, but unless the PCs are just kind of born with the "Wanderer's Itch", there would be no real reason for anyone to ever leave the well-protected microcosm of their city.

If knowledge is one of the few things that truly has value, then there should be tons of it in those lost cities. Ancient crumbling empires overflowing with forbidden and archaic knowledge that was lost when they fell.

You could become immensely powerful, influential, and VERY rich if you brought back enough of the right kinds of information, including technology and magical knowledge to be reverse-engineered.

[Endarire]

How would the Tippyverse work in an E6 setting?

I know that teleport is a key component of the Tippyverse from what I understand.

[lorddrake]

Originally Posted by Endarire

How would the Tippyverse work in an E6 setting?

I know that teleport is a key component of the Tippyverse from what I understand.

There was this thread from some time ago that was something about that.

[Darrin]

Originally Posted by Endarire

How would the Tippyverse work in an E6 setting?

I know that teleport is a key component of the Tippyverse from what I understand.

I think it has to be teleportation circle. Just plain teleport isn't efficient enough to deliver goods/troops to the cities in sufficient quantities, although if you have enough teleport traps you can eventually replicate the effects of a teleportation circle.

If E6 contains Candles of Invocation and creatures that can still cast high-level spells, then it's just a matter of whoever manages to get the chain-gating Solars set up first gets access to infinite wishes, which he can use to create teleportation circles by proxy. Aside from just stumbling across a Candle of Invocation, there are a few methods in E6 that could be used to set up some infinite wishes combos (Pazuzu, mirror mephits, etc.).

However, since humanoids would be restricted to 6HD, it's fairly likely that the city's overlords would eventually be replaced with high-level creatures with high-level spellcasting. Dragons and Black Ethergaunts, for example. From that point, the structure of the Tippyverse would be pretty much the same. The only difference would be instead of high-level wizards running everything, it would be high-level monsters who cast spells as high-level wizards. Presumably they keep all the 1-6 HD humanoids around for cannon fodder, ego-stroking, or light after-dinner snacks.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Endarire

How would the Tippyverse work in an E6 setting?

I know that teleport is a key component of the Tippyverse from what I understand.

Much the same, but with high-level wizards replaced with kobold Sorcerors and Witches. And of course, more importance placed on the actual armies of the setting, rather than the high level wizards,

[Demonic_Spoon]

If epic magic wasn't banned this would be the ideal environment for some mythals.

Also, the psionic power Divert Teleport anyone?

All in all a awesome concept though.

Also, I'm seeing the utilization of mindsight Formian queens with their 50 mile telepathy to organize things.

No moving cities? Using the stronghold builders guidebook it could be totally doable to have a flying/swimming/burrowing/teleporting city if you get enough wealth to throw around.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy

Teleport Circle (or analogs, i.e. permanent Gate) warp the world...Combine that with a drastic alteration to the basic military situation (logistics are massively simplified, ambushes become effectively impossible, strategic surprise is actually possible and easily achieved).

In a conventional, non-tippyverse setting where easy, mass teleporting is not available, how come devils and demons don't just auto-win every engagement? Many devils and demons have Greater Teleport at-will. Against your standard fantasy army, this is a decisive advantage. The fiends will be able to ambush with impunity any mortal incursions into the hells, and if the fiends decide to invade the material plane, there's nothing the armies in the material plane can really do.

[Demonic_Spoon]

Well there's the Blood War and the fact that the celestials would intervene in the event of this happening.

[Silva Stormrage]

I have a question about the lack of teleportation blocking in regular D&D.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm

Forbiddance does exactly that. Now, it also has a massive material gold component which means its pretty much unusable to ward of the empire completely. Without using this trick.

Using a Spell To Power Erudite/Thrallherd Minimum Level 15 you can have a thrall cleric that has the southern magician feat. Not completely sure if southern magician lets StP Erudite learn it though. I know there is also a feat in Dragon Magazine (Not sure which issue) that lets Spell To Power Erudites learn divine spells as well.

Once the Spell To Power Erudite can cast it he can simply remove the material components to cast in on the majority of the region.


Weaknesses of Forbiddance spam.
1) Can be dispelled (Hard though)
2) Hurts creatures of different alignments


This might make an interesting side in this setting. A group of Erudite thrallherds that only call thralls and believers that are the same alignment as them and then block themselves off from the rest of the world.

[Jack_Simth]

Originally Posted by Silva Stormrage

I have a question about the lack of teleportation blocking in regular D&D.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm

Forbiddance does exactly that. Now, it also has a massive material gold component which means its pretty much unusable to ward of the empire completely. Without using this trick.

There's several problems with Forbiddance (most of which have already been discussed in this thread):
1) Forbiddance affects a very small area, as far as a city or a nation is concerned. To cover a big area, you'll need a rather lot of castings of this very expensive spell.
2) In order for your Teleportation circles to have any useful effect, you need to have assorted receiving zones that are left out of your Forbiddance anyway.
3) Forbiddance permits SR, so a trap of Greater Spell Immunity placed just before your teleportation circle means that your army can charge right on in.
4) As Forbiddance has a duration, it can be dispelled or Disjoined by one caster who gets past your defenses... probably going in using a tourist or a business reason as a cover.
5) Forbiddance has a fixed area once cast, and doesn't have any bypasses for line-of-effect... which means someone who gets past your defenses initially can simply dig down a few feet into the ground, and build their own receiving area for the incoming army.
6) Forbiddance also hurts people of other alignments than the caster (bypassable with a password, but still), which makes it rather annoying to use to cover a big city, as there will generally be people of multiple alignments there.

Edit: Oh yes, and when someone does breach your defenses against teleportation, your own defenses against teleportation prevent you from dropping troops into the breach to counter them.

[Hecuba]

While the possibility of T.C.s would be an absolute necessity, I think that it's also worth noting that the structure of the Tippyverse (at least given what's been presented) also requires a minimum threshold population and economic production.

In particular, the societies in question need to be large enough to allow for:

1) A durable supply of TC casters. Ultimately the rate at which a major power can reasonably eliminate TC casters must not exceed frequency of them emerging from the population. If the population is not big enough for that to hold true, proactive killing of enemy TC casters should arise as a pure strategy equilibrium rather than population concentration for defense.
The precise population required will be a function of the frequency of PC classes along the total population.

2) Production levels high enough that the economies of scale TC provides must outweigh the cost. Essentially, we need an economy (and thus a population) big enough to support a market system instead of a patronage system as the dominant structure.

Interestingly, these elements provides a more organic way for such a world to originate-- a Tippy-like need not have the invention of TCs as an inflection point, but instead see them emerge once a threshold population is reached. I'm not sure if that is more or less interesting, but food for thought at least.

[JackRackham]

Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy

More of it will be posted in this thread, but no it's not. As the entire setting is hand written it's a pain to upload.


It is. Teleporation Circles allow the rapid deployment of entire armies numbering (potentially) in the hundreds of thousands into an enemy city in minutes. When such an ability exists it becomes impossible to maintain a traditional nation because you can never secure your borders and the attacker will always have a nigh insurmountable initiative advantage. This will lead to centralization as the only viable defense, with the inevitable knock on effects. That gives you the start of the Cities.

Then come the economic side effects. A single permanent TC has a cost comparable to a Galley and can potentially move upwards of 70 billion pounds of goods per day. No other means of trade can possibly compete with a TC. That leads to the end of trade routes which screws over the smaller communities as they aren't profitable enough to get a TC and merchants no longer pass through them on the way to major trading hubs. Combine this with the concentration of military force making small communities non viable when faced with monsters and it very much becomes a world sharply delineated between the Cities and the Wilds.

Remove permanent Teleportation Circles and a Tippyverse will never form in the first place.


The critical components can be transferred straight over. Psionic Teleportation Circles exist, as does Fabricate. With traps of each (as you can't make permanent a Psionic TC) you can get the two critical components of the Tippyverse (teleporation and food traps).

I don't know enough about PF to answer that one. So long as permanent teleportation circles are possible you can (and logically would) have the Tippyverse. Ultimately everything else is simply a bonus feature. With a Create Food trap you are pretty much set.

Apologies in advance if I'm covering old ground. I don't have time to read the whole thread tonight. That said:

I do believe that this sort of power structure would also lead to hegemony of the most powerful city. What we have is a scenario very much like a world saturated with nuclear weapons.

As you pointed out, the attacker would have the initiative advantage and high-level combat in d&d takes place so quickly that, even with TCs, one's allies would not arrive in time to prevent one's destruction. At the same time, it would always be possible to counter this with the threat of attack on the main city by an alliance of lesser cities.

So, the alpha city would wield great influence (in that no city would dare confront them directly), but would be loathe to appear heavy-handed lest the other cities see it as a threat to common well-being and band together against it. We're looking at a power making 'friendly suggestions' to other leaders through diplomats, probably a world very much at peace after this amount of time has passed (due to the catastrophic implications of any conflict), a world where secrets are very powerful and secret power is the very best kind.

Spoiler

Realistically, there would also be wizards working around-the-clock in each of these cities to develop defenses against the teleportation of huge armies, as the possession of such an offense without the worry of retaliation would ultimately lead to global supremacy - and the only true security to be offered in this scenario.

At some point, someone would figure out a defense and gain dominance, but the technology would probably spread with their influence and eventually their empire would break up into a handful of smaller empires who would be forced to resort to more conventional tactics if they wanted to war on one another. Of course, this would mean crossing the wilds.

At this point, there would be a second great peace. Eventually, however, one of two scenarios would play out: either people would wizen up, see the cyclical evolution and escalation of warfare and defense for what it is and create a beneficent world government (which might or might now be corrupted later) or the world would wage war in a more conventional way, by moving their armies over land and sea.

Either way, this would likely mean the conquering of the Wilds. In the first scenario, the new government would want to prove its good intentions and redirect some of the aggressions of a people accustomed to a Cold War. Moreover, the merchant class would be looking for new markets and investments. In the second scenario, leaders would not want their armies to be worn down by random monsters and raiders on the way to the target.

The Wilds would be cleared out and infrastructure allowing for the movement of people and equipment would return - eventually leading over many cycles of a thousand years or more (and assuming the world hasn't been annihilated by some maniacal power) to a World City based on magic. When max density is reached within this global city, exploration of whatever else exists (space, other planes, etc) becomes a given and the process continues on a larger scale.

Everything after the fourth paragraph is over-rant. My apologies.

[Heatwizard]

So, the assertion is that you can't protect a Weirdstone in such a fashion that it becomes invincible. No matter how much time or money you put into it, it's always vulnerable to some Wish-inserted goofy destruction party. It stands to follow, then, that if it's impossible to defend this target flawlessly, it's not really possible to defend any target flawlessly, and with sufficient Wish-squads you can destroy anything you want. Including resetting Wish Traps.

Now, it seems to me like taking out everyone else's Wish Traps would kind of end your problems; the major weakness to the Weirdstone lockdown takes a hundred years to build, and if you have a wizard (or a sorceror, if that's your thing) hit up the Usual Divination Channels for "Is anyone building a Wish Trap? y/n If yes, then who? _________" even once a year, you'll see it coming a long ways away and have plenty of time to stop the construction, or kill the builder, or whatever. It's obviously doable, because if something could protect your Wish Trap, then why didn't you deploy it on your Weirdstones?

[Aquillion]

Originally Posted by Deth Muncher

Hey Tippy, I had a question: What incentive is there, ever, for PCs to leave a city? Or city network, that is - I mean really, if each city is its own highly functioning, self sustainable microcosm, then why would anyone leave?

Or rather, what incentives have you given players to leave the towns in this setting? I could, I guess, see the standard fare of "go check out a ruined city" or "go invade this other city" or even some sort of political intrigue, if that's your speed, but unless the PCs are just kind of born with the "Wanderer's Itch", there would be no real reason for anyone to ever leave the well-protected microcosm of their city.

I mean, people climb mountains in the real world; probably it's mostly the same thing. The thirst for adventure would have to play a huge rule -- yeah, there's some treasure, but the honest truth is that if you want power and wealth you'd be better off just staying at home and studying magic.

(Unless -- by a strict reading of the rules, the fastest way to learn magic, or anything, is to adventure. So it's possible that people leave the cities to become powerful wizards. But that seems like it's taking certain parts of the rules more literally than they're intended to be; we have no rules for becoming a level 20 wizard purely by sitting in a tower and studying, but the game definitely doesn't imply that it's impossible.)

A lot also depends on how rare PC classes are, which isn't something the books provide guidance on. If they're very rare and few people manage to learn one, I would expect PCs to be considered valuable resources and special agents by the leaders of cities -- high-level wizards would actively recruit adventurers to use as agents, support them, and use them on missions of various sorts. The nature of these missions, though (assuming we're deliberately trying to weight our assumptions in order to create a niche for adventurers, to make the setting playable) would have to be carefully-considered, since many things can just be accomplished with Teleport, Wish, scrying, etc.

Remember that there are some things that people might want from the wilderness. Artifacts are probably the most important target for adventurers, since they can't be replicated with Wish; magical items that land outside the range of what Wish can safely produce could also be worth sending adventurers for.

In a way, though, the most valuable return that a high-level wizard gets from supporting an adventurer party is the adventurers themselves -- once the adventurers become high level in their own right, they can be useful allies. (Well, the casters can be.)

On the other hand, if character classes are more common, then none of this happens.