(3.5) Whats the point of the Core sorcerer?

[Dr.Epic]

Originally Posted by zoobob9

Read Start of Darkness. It explains why Sorcerers are superior (according to Xykon).

Yeah, I call shenanigans on that fight. A real wizard should have prepared the right spells for the battle. The beauty of being a wizard is that you get every spell (minus any potential banned school spells, but it's still more than sorcerers). Assuming you know what you're going to face, you can plan the perfect set of spells to handle it. If you have time to plan, a wizard could easily beat a sorcerer, and Dorukan had plenty of time observing Xykon from his dungeon.

Plus, there are other variables to consider. Xykon had the advantage of being a lich. We don't both of their exact levels so we can't say who is higher level. Also, one of Dorukan's spells didn't work because the comic was in black and white.

[nedz]

Originally Posted by Jade Dragon

FTFY.

And for the record, the DM can roll on the tables in advance.

Sorry thats not the point I was trying to make.
How can a DM know what the PCs are going to do tomorrow?

Lets just reduce this to one question, for the sake of arguement.
Wizard: "Will I run into any monsters with Immunity to Fire tomorrow?"
DM consults his notes, sees that he has no such encounters planned, and says "Nope".
Wizard then cast Plane Shift and goes to the Elemental Plane of Fire.

Now unless the DM builds an Transplaner Railway the Divination was wrong.

[dextercorvia]

Originally Posted by FearlessGnome

Speaking of Mother Cyst... I keep hearing that it gives 11 spells, but I can only find 10 of them. There's one per level, and then there's the second level spell that actually makes the cyst. Where's the last spell hiding? (As in, what other level gives two spells, and which two are they?)

Mother Cyst doesn't. My Necrotic Apprentice trick does.

Apprentice Spellcaster gives an additional spell known at 1st level, and the ability to swap one spell every time you level up. Mother Cyst gives the 10 spells known you mentioned. You then proceed to swap your 10 mother cyst spells over the next several levels (save some of the low level ones to use your normal sorcerer swap on). You can add in a bloodline feat to make it a total of 20 additional spells known.

[Qwertystop]

Originally Posted by nedz

Sorry thats not the point I was trying to make.
How can a DM know what the PCs are going to do tomorrow?

Lets just reduce this to one question, for the sake of arguement.
Wizard: "Will I run into any monsters with Immunity to Fire tomorrow?"
DM consults his notes, sees that he has no such encounters planned, and says "Nope".
Wizard then cast Plane Shift and goes to the Elemental Plane of Fire.

Now unless the DM builds an Transplaner Railway the Divination was wrong.

Simple way around this. Say that in your campaign, the future is not set. Within a reasonably expectable course of action, Divinations can predict the future. If someone goes out of his way to prove the divination wrong, it might work (excepting Epic-level ones, which might force coincidences to keep themselves true).

[Ravens_cry]

Originally Posted by Diefje

This thread needs more metaphors.

Sorcerors are like cake, wizard are like pie. Pie is clearly superior, but some people just like cake.

Interesting, but not only is that a simile, but it doesn't quite grasp the fundamental differences. between a spontaneous and a prepared caster. I think a better metaphor is spell casting is a pantry.
A sorcerer has large storage space, but only so many ingredients and can only order different ones rarely.
A wizard on the other hand has smaller storage space, but can potentially call elsewhere for ingredients with ease.

[Analysis]

Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy

At the end of the day you blow most of your excess spell slots on it with Spontaneous Divination.

Things like "Is anyone planning to assassinate me?"
"Will I run into any monsters with Immunity to Fire tomorrow?"
"Will I see any creature not native to the material plane tomorrow?"
"Will I enter into a conflict with any undead tomorrow?"
"Has anyone attempted to use divination magic against me today?"
"Does anyone who I consider to be my enemy and believe to be dead, still live?"

When you get Yes answers you refine your questions until you get the specifics. Four or so castings per day should cover the wrong answers (if something conflicts cast it a few more times).

Interesting, thank you. Somehow I thought it was a single question per casting. There is the problem of 10-20% incorrect answers, but overall you should be able to get at least a clear view.

In the games you play or DM, if answers concerning the future actually depend on the PC's actions (i.e. you will meet undead, but only if you go to the castle like you said, not if you stay at home), will the answer remain valid only if plans remain unchanged, or will some undead appear by chance to make sure true answers will be true answers no matter what?

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by nedz

Wizard then cast Plane Shift and goes to the Elemental Plane of Fire.

The Plane Shift drops the Wizard into the flying fortress of Drip Drop, feared Water Orc warlord who has brought his army of Water Elementals to the Elemental Plane of Fire to kill some Fire creatures. The fortress is warded against teleporting out. It takes him an entire day to break out, because it is so vast.

Or, the planes do not have a single time frame. What was "today" on the Material plane is not the same as what is "today" on the Elemental Plane of Fire, which might not even have the concept of days.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Doc Roc

I love mallets.

Mallets can take a beating, a finely tuned watch cant.

[Szar_Lakol]

Originally Posted by Qwertystop

What feat is this? All I find on D&D Toolshop is Precocious Apprentice.

DMGII; it's called simply "Apprentice". It's part of a somewhat complex system of mentors and apprentices; you generally get some bonuses to skills, etc. for training with your mentor one day of the week. You can lose the feat, however. For example, a Fighter apprenticed to a soldier gets bonuses to Intimidate and on Fortitude saves.

For some reason, they decided to give spellcasters quite a bit more than anyone else who takes it, but who is surprised by that?

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by Leon

Mallets can take a beating, a finely tuned watch cant.

Clearly what you need is a time-mallet, which is a mallet with a built-in watch.

[Little Brother]

Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy

Yep, Uncanny Forethought for your Int mod's worth of spontaneous casting per day and Spontaneous Divination for never having to prepare a divination spell again.

The only problem with UF is that you need to take Spell Mastery to qualify for it.

But UF is SO worth the waste of Spell Mastery.

Originally Posted by nedz

Unless you run on a railroad; how is a DM meant to answer Questions
2-4 ? As a DM I would feel obliged to answer Unknown to all of these.

Tough, RAW doesn't support it. DM fiat has no place when talking about this kind of thing.

And the whole pie v. cake thing: Pies(Wizards) are better, but cakes(Sorcerers) are easier.

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by Little Brother

But UF is SO worth the waste of Spell Mastery.
Tough, RAW doesn't support it. DM fiat has no place when talking about this kind of thing.

And the whole pie v. cake thing: Pies(Wizards) are better, but cakes(Sorcerers) are easier.

If you think cakes are easy and not as good as pies, you've never tried to make some of the more advanced cakes.

[Blisstake]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

If you think cakes are easy and not as good as pies, you've never tried to make some of the more advanced cakes.

It was a generalization...

[Flickerdart]

My point is that cakes have a much wider optimization range than pies do, so it makes more sense to cast the Wizard and Sorcerer the opposite way.

[flumphy]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

My point is that cakes have a much wider optimization range than pies do, so it makes more sense to cast the Wizard and Sorcerer the opposite way.

Well, technically, there's no reason you can't stick a bunch of fondant on a pie. Not that you would. (And since I've begun to lose track, I mean that in a completely non-metaphorical sense.)

In any case, "better" and even "easier" are subjective.

[Rogue Shadows]

"Is anyone planning to assassinate me?"
"Will I run into any monsters with Immunity to Fire tomorrow?"
"Will I see any creature not native to the material plane tomorrow?"
"Will I enter into a conflict with any undead tomorrow?"
"Has anyone attempted to use divination magic against me today?"
"Does anyone who I consider to be my enemy and believe to be dead, still live?"

Oh, God, as a DM I would love to get questions like that...

"Is anyone planning to assassinate me?"
No. (The BBEG they're running the risk of running into isn't yet consciously aware of their existence).

"Will I run into any monsters with Immunity to Fire tomorrow?"
No (Fire Resistance 30, on the other hand...)

"Will I see any creature not native to the material plane tomorrow?"
No ("Well, yeah, I'm an Outsider...but I was born just down the street.")

"Will I enter into a conflict with any undead tomorrow?"
Yes (The local bar is run by a Lawful Neutral wraith and he's sick of the PC's not paying their tab, so he's taking them to court. That's what you get for adventuring on Sigil...)

"Has anyone attempted to use divination magic against me today?"
No (The party's fighter, on the other hand...)

"Does anyone who I consider to be my enemy and believe to be dead, still live?"
No. (And really, this one is your fault for choosing a wording that pretty much specifically excludes any kind of Undead, Deathless, or Construct).

Gotta love that "the beings contacted hate you" clause of contact other plane...

[Little Brother]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

If you think cakes are easy and not as good as pies, you've never tried to make some of the more advanced cakes.

Pie crusts. The foundation of a pie. They are PAIN! Just like the basis or preping in general is irritating. Also, what you do with pie is add stuff on to the complete dessert, such as adding optimization to the already stupid good Wizard.

And it is harder to "Optimize" cake than pie. Agreed. Sorcerers are hard to make better than they are. They are just "eh." Easy to throw out, but hard to make better than a good pie.

Pie=Wizard, Cake=Sorcerer.

[candycorn]

These are a bit...iffy.

Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows

Oh, God, as a DM I would love to get questions like that...

"Is anyone planning to assassinate me?"
No. (The BBEG they're running the risk of running into isn't yet consciously aware of their existence).

Good answer. The Wizard is concerned with threats to himself, and no plots against him is correctly answered. Also, a plot to duel or face in open conflict would not qualify as assassination.

Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows

"Will I run into any monsters with Immunity to Fire tomorrow?"
No (Fire Resistance 30, on the other hand...)

Also, good answer. Immunity to Fire is a specific term, and other related fire resistances would not be included.

Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows

"Will I see any creature not native to the material plane tomorrow?"
No ("Well, yeah, I'm an Outsider...but I was born just down the street.")

Only a good answer if the Outsider has the Native subtype. If it is considered "Extraplanar", then this is not a good answer.

Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows

"Will I enter into a conflict with any undead tomorrow?"
Yes (The local bar is run by a Lawful Neutral wraith and he's sick of the PC's not paying their tab, so he's taking them to court. That's what you get for adventuring on Sigil...)

This is slightly iffy, but, with the day filled with court antics, the 6 preparations of Control Undead are somewhat less vital.

Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows

"Has anyone attempted to use divination magic against me today?"
No (The party's fighter, on the other hand...)

Bad answer, unless that divination magic didn't detect anything about the wizard.

Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows

"Does anyone who I consider to be my enemy and believe to be dead, still live?"
No. (And really, this one is your fault for choosing a wording that pretty much specifically excludes any kind of Undead, Deathless, or Construct).

Well, that's only applicable if the wizard knows of Undead, Deathless, or Constructs that are his enemy.

Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows

Gotta love that "the beings contacted hate you" clause of contact other plane...

Yes, they resent the contact. But the objective of D&D is to have fun. Requiring players to phrase their questions in 3 page, single space format? Not so much.

[Emperor Tippy]

Those are 4 questions out of over a hundred and were chosen mostly randomly.

"Am I going to be attacked tomorrow?"
If yes, "More than 3 times?"
If no, "More than once?"
etc.

"Will I enter an area tomorrow that I have not created in which teleportation is blocked?"
"Will anyone I consider an ally be attacked tomorrow?"
"Will anyone attempt to use Wish to transport me tomorrow?"

We are talking 20+ questions per CoP, with possible a dozen or so spell slots used on CoP.

And that's without Shapechange. There is a creature with at will CoP as an SU.

I can sit there on my fast time demiplane for hours refining my divination's until they give me all the detail I want.

[Rogue Shadows]

Originally Posted by candycorn

Only a good answer if the Outsider has the Native subtype. If it is considered "Extraplanar", then this is not a good answer.

Sure it is. The question was "will I see any creature not native to the material plane tomorrow?"

If you want to know about types - without getting metagamey - then the question should have been along the lines of, "will I see any creature not typically considered by residents of the material plane, to be a typical resident of the material plane?"

Though if my player had asked, "Will I see any Outsiders, Elementals, or any creature with the (Extraplanar) subtype tomorrow?" then I would have given the same answer as the question above, and assumed that the player's character had asked the question in a less metagamey way.

The point being, the question is worded...poorly.

This is slightly iffy, but, with the day filled with court antics, the 6 preparations of Control Undead are somewhat less vital.

Ah, but the day might not be filled with court antics. "Will I enter into conflict...?" This is fulfilled simply by someone serving the PC a court order, which begins said conflict.

Bad answer, unless that divination magic didn't detect anything about the wizard.

Nope. Once again, the question was worded poorly. "Has anyone attempted to use Divination magic against me today" explicitly means that the caster is the target.

The correct question the wizard wanted to ask was "Has an area immediately surrounding my person or anything within that area been the subject of Divination spells today?"

"Yes," I the DM answer gleefully, amused that the player has somehow forgotten that he himself cast identify on his shiny new robes.

Well, that's only applicable if the wizard knows of Undead, Deathless, or Constructs that are his enemy.

Or, if a previous enemy has now become Undead, Deathless, or a Construct since their last (presumably fatal) meeting.

The proper wording would have been "Is any individual whom I consider to be my enemy still alive, or otherwise cognative?"

Yes, they resent the contact. But the objective of D&D is to have fun. Requiring players to phrase their questions in 3 page, single space format? Not so much.

The players subjecting the DM to CoP interrogations? Equally unfun. If the player wants to play twenty questions every time they prepare a spell, then they must be specific. But not too specific lest they fall victim to an Oracle situation.

The DM is a player too, remember?

[candycorn]

Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows

The players subjecting the DM to CoP interrogations? Equally unfun. If the player wants to play twenty questions every time they prepare a spell, then they must be specific. But not too specific lest they fall victim to an Oracle situation.

Then the DM has tools at his disposal. After a few, send emissaries of the deity, to remind players that a deity's resentment has tangible consequences.

Or tell the players off board that such things are frowned on.

Allowing it, but using passive-aggressive behavior to punish players for using it, when they haven't used the wording that you personally approve of?

Hall mark of a Bad DM.

Being upfront with players over the fact that CoP is detracting from the game is a good thing. Ambushing players, then whipping out transcripts of their questions, and cackling with glee as you whip out the Big book of Semantics? Not a good thing.

Originally Posted by Rogue Shadows

The DM is a player too, remember?

Yes, and that means that he should work WITH the other players to create a fun environment. Not against them.

[Doc Roc]

Originally Posted by dextercorvia

Mother Cyst doesn't. My Necrotic Apprentice trick does.

Apprentice Spellcaster gives an additional spell known at 1st level, and the ability to swap one spell every time you level up. Mother Cyst gives the 10 spells known you mentioned. You then proceed to swap your 10 mother cyst spells over the next several levels (save some of the low level ones to use your normal sorcerer swap on). You can add in a bloodline feat to make it a total of 20 additional spells known.

This is brilliant.

Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy

And that's without Shapechange. There is a creature with at will CoP as an SU.

Elemental Weirds. Ruining your tomorrow, yesterday!

[FearlessGnome]

Originally Posted by Doc Roc

This is brilliant.

Very, very true.

Personally, I'd try to get that ICKY undead THING out of me as soon as possible, though. Nothing says you don't get the spells just because you can't cast them.

[Doc Roc]

Originally Posted by FearlessGnome

Very, very true.

Personally, I'd try to get that ICKY undead THING out of me as soon as possible, though. Nothing says you don't get the spells just because you can't cast them.

Actually, I'm extremely fond of the necrotic spells. If you're playing a tainted scholar, no one is ever going to make those saves anyway...........

Absolutely nightmarish villain, that was.

What actually happens if you psychic ref the feat away?

[candycorn]

Originally Posted by Doc Roc

Actually, I'm extremely fond of the necrotic spells. If you're playing a tainted scholar, no one is ever going to make those saves anyway...........

Absolutely nightmarish villain, that was.

What actually happens if you psychic ref the feat away?

Well, you lose the benefits of the feat. Since the feat granted you spells known, you'd lose them...

Unless, of course, you didn't have those spells known anymore. If you didn't, you'd have nothing to lose.

[FearlessGnome]

Originally Posted by Doc Roc

Actually, I'm extremely fond of the necrotic spells. If you're playing a tainted scholar, no one is ever going to make those saves anyway...........

Absolutely nightmarish villain, that was.

What actually happens if you psychic ref the feat away?

For an evil character, aye, swap a few nectrotic spells when you get better ones, but keep most of them. For a non-evil character receiving horrible powers from that one infernal bargain he made when he was young, swap them all right out and feel terrible about the THING that "lives" inside you.

If you reform the feat away, I think your average DM would give you a Look and tell you that yes, you DO lose the spells. You may keep the cyst, though. It won't do anything for you, but a lump of flesh doesn't just go away.

[Szar_Lakol]

Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy

Those are 4 questions out of over a hundred and were chosen mostly randomly.

"Am I going to be attacked tomorrow?"
If yes, "More than 3 times?"
If no, "More than once?"
etc.

"Will I enter an area tomorrow that I have not created in which teleportation is blocked?"
"Will anyone I consider an ally be attacked tomorrow?"
"Will anyone attempt to use Wish to transport me tomorrow?"

We are talking 20+ questions per CoP, with possible a dozen or so spell slots used on CoP.

And that's without Shapechange. There is a creature with at will CoP as an SU.

I can sit there on my fast time demiplane for hours refining my divination's until they give me all the detail I want.

This is why I have a very strong impulse to outright ban any and all divination spells that concern the future. Playing this way bogs everything down and it slows the game to a crawl.

I cannot know in advance what the wizard is going to do in response to actions that will involve him. I can't know if he'll decide to plane shift to the elemental plane of fire if I tell him "No" on his "Will I meet any creatures that are immune to fire tomorrow" question (thinking he was going to help thwart the plot to assassinate the king). I could press him for details, yes, but quite honestly, I don't want to get into a long discussion regarding his miles-long list of questions; I just want to move on with the damn game. What are the rest of the players going to do while the wizard satisfies his paranoia, play Scrabble?

Occasionally, if the questions come at the end of a session, the back-and-forth can be done outside the formal game sessions, but then I have other things I'd rather do again, such as preparing for next session, read a book, or any other number of things that are more entertaining. It's fine if it's just some of the time, but every damn day? No.

Which is annoying, because the spell is fine as written, but "clever" players, like Tippy here, will come up with a dozen or two different ways of circumventing the limits built into it in order to brute force an answer to everything. Contact other plane has a use outside of paranoid wizards seeking to cover their ass.

[Cerlis]

Design-wise. they wanted you to have two forms of magic profession. Well covered but limited. Of many spells but not a variety.

They COULD have had both forms of casting in the same class and you just choose which way you go (simular to 4.0) but that would be to confusing with people starting the game and already having to go through a big list of spells.

it was better for them to just make two classes.

[Rogue Shadows]

it was better for them to just make two classes.

They also should not have had identical spell lists. One of these days I'm going to take an axe to the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list and split the thing wide open, and the pull in some spells from Cleric, Druid, and Bard for the difference.

...either that or use the revised sorcerer spell list Monte Cook cooked up.

Originally Posted by candycorn

Allowing it, but using passive-aggressive behavior to punish players for using it, when they haven't used the wording that you personally approve of?

Hall mark of a Bad DM.

Never had complaints yet...

Being upfront with players over the fact that CoP is detracting from the game is a good thing. Ambushing players, then whipping out transcripts of their questions, and cackling with glee as you whip out the Big book of Semantics? Not a good thing.

I hate to bring this up, but CoP specifically states that the beings a) resent the contact, b) might not know the correct answer, and c) might lie if the dice say so and/or if the DM feels like it (and it actually, IIRC, specifically proscribes DM fiat as a reasonable choice on the DM's part here - but, since no doubt you'd think that this is the DM lording over the players, let's, for the remainder of the discussion, assume that the DM is doing nothing more than rolling the dice and choosing answers based on the dice results).

Now for the sample questions, I never once lied, nor provided an incorrect answer, so already I'm exceeding the expectations provided by the spell.

But it says, right in the spell description, that the contactee resents the contacter. So you rolls your dice, you takes your chances. I don't have to warn my players about anything because the book has already done that for me and anyone who is using CoP in such a way should know this, just as someone who casts fireball should be aware of the radius of the spell and accept it if their allies fall within that radius when they choose their target area; why is the player's fault if they forget the latter but the DM's if they forget the former?

Or they should cast fireball in such a way so as to not hit their allies - just as they should word their CoP questions in such a way so as to prevent the Contactee from being able to monkey paw their way past the Contacter.

You want the answers to be in the spirit of the question as well as the letter? Use wish or miracle or some such, which I would reasonably assume can result in such answers by essentially casting a level 9 version of CoP, since unlike CoP you're actually putting something into the spell and by the time you can cast them you're properly speaking much higher on the contactee's radar and so more worth their time and effort.

CoP, on the other hand, is roughly the equivalent of a five-year-old pestering a grownup (whom they don't even know!) for an answer to a question that the grownup probably finds stupid, while the grownup is trying to do something more important.

Being upfront with players over the fact that CoP is detracting from the game is a good thing. Ambushing players, then whipping out transcripts of their questions, and cackling with glee as you whip out the Big book of Semantics? Not a good thing.

What ambush?

The players are forewarned that the being they contact resents the contact, might not know the answer, and could lie anyway. Furthermore rolling the percentile dice to see the truthfulness of the answer is well within what could reasonably necessitate a hidden die roll according to the DM, so the players have no real way of knowing which of these is the case, anyway, and so can't trust CoP regardless of whether or not their question was answered to the spirit of the question as well as the letter.

There is no ambush. The player of the wizard trying to hack reality is fully aware of what they're doing and what might happen. If he seriously resents the DM for doing exactly what the spell warns him the DM is going to do, then he's no different than a wizard's player who keeps telling the fellow PCs to man up just because his cast fireballs keep including them in the radius.

[Analysis]

Originally Posted by Little Brother

Tough, RAW doesn't support it. DM fiat has no place when talking about this kind of thing.

In practice, how do you/your DM handle this in your games? If a Contact Other Plane prediction would be invalidated by the actions of the PCs, will strange coincidences by necessity occur so as to make the prediction come true?

EDIT: I guess this goes for all of you who mention this as a tool for choosing spells to prepare based on what will happen in the future. Does this occur in the games you actually play, and if so, how do you handle the fact that the DM cannot themselves predict the future? I can see several strategies that might help, but am curious as to how other people handle it outside of theoretical games.