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Old 12-16-2011, 07:26 PM   Top  -  End  -  #1
MammonAzrael
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Default The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

I worked up a rewrite of the warlock several years ago. The basic idea was that I was unsatisfied with how focused the mechanical side of the class was on dark, evil powers when the fluff clearly indicated that there were alternate methods for being a warlock. It was recently brought to my attention again, and looking over it, I find myself distinctly unsatisfied. So I’m updating my rewrite to incorporate the experience I’ve gained since I first wrote it.

Now, the warlock is a well-loved class by many, myself included. This is certainly for it’s flavor, which has curiously diverged into two very different paths. The first path, the one I’ve been seeing far more often, is a person who makes a pact with some eldritch and powerful being for arcane power. The popularity of this version, I suspect, is due in large part to 4th edition, as that is the fluff for warlocks there. However, 3.5 has another class that deals with supernatural entities in exchange for power - the binder. The binder captures the feel of pact-making far better than any warlock fix I have ever seen.

Which leads me to the second fluff path: a warlock is a being that has inherited it’s power from it’s ancestors. Usually a demon or fey hiding in the family tree as a great-great-great grandfather or something. The power they wield is not the result of some bargain made with mysterious beings from beyond, it is a fundamental part of who they are. This is the fluff presented in Complete Arcane, and it is how I’ve always seen them. But oddly, nearly every fix I’ve seen chooses to take the former approach with pacts. This remix will focus on the latter option.

Mechanically speaking, the warlock is an energizer bunny. They can go pretty much forever without exhausting their resources. The (rather harsh) trade off for this stamina that Wizards handed out was a dramatically reduced impact in many respects. The damage they can meet out is rather unimpressive, making them poor blasters (at least in realistic combat durations). The invocations they can use are fairly varied, but the small number of viable options they receive still creates a bottleneck, making warlocks fairly narrow on a case-by-case basis. Their item-based abilities are nifty, but aren’t mind-blowing (especially now that we can just play an artificer). And the other abilities are hardly worth mentioning.

This rewrite will focus on their inherited abilities to a great extent, emphasizing the different boons gained from different ancestors. Role-wise they will still not be dedicated blasters (though they will be better at the role), but rather a class that you can mold to fit what you want, from blaster to BFC to party face...but more than anything, to bump up the overall power level of the class.

Table of Contents
  1. 1st Post: Introduction, Class Basics, Table, and Class Features
  2. 2nd Post: Heritage Features
  3. 3rd Post: Invocations
  4. 4th Post: Extras and Change Log




The Warlock


Alignment: Any (see below)
Hit Die: d6

Class Skills
Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha)
Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Design Notes
Spoiler
Table: Warlock
Level
Base Attack
Bonus
Fortitude
Save
Reflex
Save
Will
Save
Special
Invocations
Known
Shapes and
Essences
1st+0
+1
+0
+2
Eldritch blast 1d6, invocations (least)
1
0
2nd+1
+1
+0
+3
Heritage (1st ability)
2
0
3rd+2
+2
+1
+3
Detect magic, eldritch blast 2d6
2
1
4th+3
+2
+1
+4
Heritage (2nd ability)
3
1
5th+3
+3
+1
+4
Deceive item, eldritch blast 3d6
3
2
6th+4
+3
+2
+5
Heritage (3rd ability), invocations (lesser)
4
2
7th+5
+3
+2
+5
Eldritch blast 4d6
5
2
8th+6/+1
+4
+2
+6
Heritage (4th ability), identify item
5
3
9th+6/+1
+4
+3
+6
Eldritch blast 5d6, eldritch volley
6
3
10th+7/+2
+5
+3
+7
Arcane sight, heritage (5th ability)
6
4
11th+8/+3
+5
+3
+7
Eldritch blast 6d6, invocations (greater)
7
4
12th+9/+4
+6
+4
+8
Heritage (6th ability)
8
4
13th+9/+4
+6
+4
+8
Eldritch blast 7d6, eldritch soul
8
5
14th+10/+5
+6
+4
+9
Heritage (7th ability)
9
5
15th+11/+6/+1
+7
+5
+9
Eldritch blast 8d6, greater arcane sight
9
6
16th+12/+7/+2
+7
+5
+10
Heritage (8th ability), invocations (ancestry)
10
6
17th+12/+7/+2
+8
+5
+10
Eldritch blast 9d6
11
6
18th+13/+8/+3
+8
+6
+11
Eldritch volley, heritage (9th ability)
11
7
19th+14/+9/+4
+9
+6
+11
Eldritch blast 10d6
12
7
20th+15/+10/+5
+9
+6
+12
Heritage (10th ability), renew item
12
8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Design Notes
Spoiler
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the warlock.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Warlocks are proficient with all simple weapons. They are proficient with light armor but not with shields.

Since the somatic components required for warlock invocations are uncomplicated gestures, a warlock’s invocations ignore the arcane spell failure chance of light armor. This does not apply to any other form of armor, nor does this apply to spells or abilities granted from other classes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Design Notes
Spoiler
Invocations
Due to the eldritch power that flows through his veins, a warlock does not prepare or cast spells as other wielders of arcane magic do. Instead, he possesses a repertoire of attacks, defenses, and abilities known as invocations that require him to focus the wild energy that suffuses his soul. A warlock can use any invocations he knows at-will, with the following qualifications:

A warlock’s invocations are spell-like abilities; using an invocation is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity unless otherwise indicated in it’s description. An invocation can be disrupted, just as a spell can be ruined during casting. A warlock is entitled to a Concentration check to successfully use an invocation if he is hit by an attack while invoking, just as a spellcaster would be. A warlock can choose to use an invocation defensively, by making a successful Concentration check, to avoid provoking attacks of opportunity. A warlock’s invocations are subject to spell resistance unless an invocation’s description specifically states otherwise. A warlock’s caster level with his invocations is equal to his warlock level. A warlock may dismiss an invocation as a standard action, just as a wizard can dismiss a spell.

The save DC for an invocation (if it allows a save) is equal to 10 + the equivalent spell level of the invocation + the warlock’s Charisma modifier. Since spell-like abilities are not actually spells, a warlock cannot benefit from any metamagic feat or the Spell Focus feat. He can, however, benefit from the Ability Focus feat and any other feat that affects spell-like abilities. Unlike other spell-like abilities, invocations are subject to arcane spell failure chance.

The four grades of invocations, in order of their relative power, are least, lesser, greater and ancestral. A warlock begins play with knowledge of one least-grade invocation. As a warlock gains levels, he learns new invocations, as shown on the table above. At any level when a warlock learns a new invocation, he may also replace an invocation he already knows with another invocation of the same grade or lower. At 6th level, a warlock gains access to lesser invocations; at 11th level, a warlock gains access to greater invocations and at 16th level the warlock gains access to ancestral invocations.

Finally, by virtue of their strong connection to arcane magics, warlocks can qualify for some prestige classes usually intended for spellcasters; see Warlocks and Prestige Classes section below for details.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Design Notes
Spoiler
Blast Shapes and Eldritch Essences
Not all invocations a warlock knows have any direct effect upon the world; rather, they modify a warlock’s eldritch blast, changing the damage or other effects of the ability. There are two types of these invocations: blast shapes and eldritch essences. Using any of these invocations is part of the same action as the eldritch blast. A warlock may apply up to one blast shape and one eldrtich essence to a single eldritch blast. When a warlock applies a blast shape or eldritch essence, the effective spell level of the modified eldritch blast is equal to the effective spell level of the invocation; if using both, the effective spell level is the highest between the two invocations, plus 1 (thus, a warlock that uses a blast shape of effective spell level 4th and an eldritch essence of effective spell level 3rd has an effective spell level for its eldritch blast of 5th level).

A blast shape affects the range, target, or area of effect of a eldritch blast. Unless noted otherwise, an eldritch blast subject to a blast shape invocation deals damage normally (as well as applying the effect of any applied eldritch essence or any other ability that modifies invocations).

An eldritch essence modifies the damage dealt by an eldritch blast or cause a variety of effects. If the warlock targets a creature with an eldritch blast modified by an eldritch essence that has immunity to the essence’s effect, the creature still takes damage from the attack normally (provided the creature isn’t immune to the eldritch blast itself).

Blast shapes and eldritch essences may be selected as normal just like any other invocation, but warlocks will always learn some methods to modify their eldritch blasts. At the levels shown on the table above (3rd, 5th, 8th, 10th, 13th, 15th, 18th, and 20th) a warlock learns a new invocation, but these invocations must be either blast shapes or eldritch essences. These blast shapes and essences may not be swapped out like your other invocations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Design Notes
Spoiler
Eldritch Blast (Sp)
The first invocation that all warlocks learn is the eldritch blast. A warlock attacks his foes with pure arcane power, causing damage and sometimes imparting other debilitating effects.

An eldritch blast is a ray with a range of 60 ft. It is a ranged touch attack that affects a single target, and allows no saving throw. An eldritch blast deals 1d6 points of damage at 1st level, and increases in power as shown on the table above. An eldritch blast is the equivalent of a 1st level spell. If you apply a blat shape or eldritch essence invocation to your eldritch blast your eldritch blast uses the level equivalent of the shape or essence.

An eldritch blast is subject to spell resistance, although feats like Spell Penetration and other effects that increase caster level checks for overcoming spell resistance apply to eldritch blast. An eldritch blast deals half damage to objects. Metamagic feats cannot improve a warlock’s eldritch blast, but feats that affect spell-like abilities can affect this ability; for instance, Ability Focus (eldritch blast) increases the DC for all saving throws (if any) associated with a warlock’s eldritch blast by 2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Design Notes
Spoiler
Heritage
At 2nd level a Warlock begins manifesting certain aspects of his otherworldly ancestors. This power flows through your blood, an inheritance from a mighty creature you are descended from. You must choose one of the lineages in the following post. Once chosen this choice cannot be changed. Some heritage’s have prerequisites you must meet to select that lineage; if at any point you no longer meet the prerequisites for your heritage you will cease to gain heritage abilities (but you retain the ones you’ve already awakened, and if you are able to again meet the prerequisites you will continue to gain heritage abilities). If a heritage ability grants a save, the DC is 10 + half your class level + your Charisma modifier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Design Notes
Spoiler
Detect Magic (Sp)
A warlock begins to grasp the basic foundations of magic as he grows in power. At 3rd level he can use detect magic as the spell at will. His caster level is equal to his class level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Design Notes
Spoiler
Deceive Item (Ex)
The energies that surround and flow through magical items are easier to control for a warlock. At 5th level a warlock can more easily manipulate complex magical items. When making a Use Magic Device check, he can take 10 on the check, even if distracted or threatened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Design Notes
Spoiler
Identify Item (Su)
A warlock of 8th level has grown to understand the weaving of magical power to such an extent that he can understand the function of magical items with brief study. When he casts detect magic on an item, he may then spend 1 minute concentrating on the item to also learn the properties of the item, as if he had cast identify.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Design Notes
Spoiler
Eldritch Volley (Su)
The experience of wielding his eldritch blast for so long has granted the warlock the stamina to fire off multiple blasts in quick succession. At 9th level, if a warlock uses his eldritch blast in a round he may launch an additional eldritch blast at his full base attack bonus as a swift action. When the warlock reaches 18th level he may launch up to two additional eldritch blasts instead of only one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Design Notes
Spoiler
Arcane Sight (Su)
A warlock’s understanding of arcane power has grown and matured at 10th level, to the point that magic around him is easily visible. He is under an effect similar to arcane sight, except that instead of using a Spellcraft check to determine schools of magic, he uses his ranks in Spellcraft + his caster level. He may supprese or resume this ability as a free action.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Design Notes
Spoiler
Eldritch Soul (Su)
At 13th level the magic that infuses a warlock wells up in an incredible fount of power. His warlock caster level and the caster level of any magical item he uses is considered to be 2 higher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Design Notes
Spoiler
Greater Arcane Sight (Ex)
By 15th level the world’s magic is laid out before a warlock’s senses, as clear to him as the color of the earth or sky. Like his other senses, so intrinsic is this ability that not even an anti-magic field can disrupt it. He is permanently under an effect similar to greater arcane sight, except that instead of using a Spellcraft check to determine schools of magic, he uses his ranks in Spellcraft + his caster level. He may suppress or resume this ability as a free action. This ability replaces the Arcane Sight ability gained at 10th level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Design Notes
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Renew Item (Su)
A warlock of 20th level can utilize his eldritch abilities to recharge magical items that have been temporarily drained. He may concentrate intently on an item that has a limited number of uses that recharge each day and replenish some or all of the charges. If an item has no charges left, he may concentrate uninterrupted for 5 minutes to restore a single charge. Alternatively, he may focus on an item uninterrupted for an hour to fully recharge the item.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Design Notes
Spoiler
Warlocks and Prestige Classes

A warlock taking levels in a prestige classes that has “+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class” or “+1 level of existing spellcasting class” does not gain any of his class abilities, but he does gain an increased caster level when using his invocations and increased damage with his eldritch blast. A warlock also gains new invocations at these levels as though he had gained a level in the warlock class, as well as which grades of invocation he can learn.

A warlock cannot qualify for a prestige class with a spellcasting level requirement, as he never actually learns to cast spells. However, he can qualify for prestige classes with caster level requirements (a warlock’s caster level for his invocations fulfills this requirement).
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:27 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
MammonAzrael
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

Heritage

Aberrant lineage

Spoiler

Angelic lineage
Prerequisite: Good alignment

Spoiler

Demonic lineage
Prerequisite: Chaotic and/or evil alignment

Spoiler

Draconic lineage

Spoiler

Fey lineage

Spoiler

Infernal lineage
Prerequisite: Evil and/or lawful alignment

Spoiler

Titan lineage

Spoiler

Undead lineage

Spoiler
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Current Projects - Warlock rewrite

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Old 12-16-2011, 07:29 PM   Top  -  End  -  #3
MammonAzrael
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

Warlock Invocations

There are over one hundred WotC-made Invocations, and hundreds more made by enthusiastic homebrewers. Ignoring this amazing wealth of resources would be crazy. As this class does not change the functionality of invocations, it should be compatible with any official or homebrew options you may wish to use. The invocations that follow have been altered in either function or flavor to be more in line with the above class, or are my own creations, and should be considered the standard list of invocations for this class. But don’t feel constrained, you’re already using homebrew, afterall!

If an invocation has a source in the following lists with short descriptions, then it is unchanged, and should be used as found in the related source. If an invocation has a source listed next to it’s full text, then you should use the text found here, as the source is just for citing purposes.

Blast Shapes
Spoiler


Eldritch Essences
Spoiler


Other Invocations
Spoiler


I will be adding additional invocations as time allows. This will include heritage-specific invocations.

Invocation Descriptions

Spoiler
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:30 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

Feats

Blended Essence
Prerequisite: Eldritch blast 3d6, knowledge of two or more eldritch essences
Benefit: Three times per day you may apply two eldritch essences at once to your eldritch blast. At least one of them must be at least one grade lower than the highest grade invocation you know. You must declare the use of this feat before you use the ability.

Eldritch Penetration
Prerequisite: Eldritch blast ability
Benefit: You get a +4 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance.

Grappling Blast
Found in Dragon 358, page 87.

Imbue Runestaff
Prerequisite: Knowledge of at least one least invocation
Benefit: You can use your invocations to power the spells stored within runstaffs. As a full-round action you may infuse a runestaff with one invocation you know. If you do you lose access to that invocation for 24 hours or until you have rested for 8 eight hours. Any continuing effects of the invocation immediately end, but you gain access to the spells within the runestaff. You may cast up to three spells in the runestaff equal to or lower than the equivalent spell level of the used invocation as if you had sacrificed a prepared spell.

Inexorable Heritage
Prerequisite: Heritage class ability
Benefit: You are considered to be up to 2 levels higher, up to a maximum of your hit dice, for determining what Heritage abilities you have.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.


Items

Aiming
Price: +1 bonus
Property: Melee weapon
Caster Level: 6th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 18) abjuration
Activation: --

This weapon emits a sense of calm that steadies your aim.

An aiming weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the weapon’s enhancement bonus to ranged touch attacks he makes with spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to ranged attack rolls lasts until his next turn.
Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, targeting ray SC219
Cost to Create: Varies.
Gauntlets of Eldritch Power
Found in Magic Item Compendium, page 102. Update pending.

Gloves of Eldritch Admixture
Found in Magic Item Compendium, page 105. Update pending.

Stole of Arcane PowerReplaces Chasuble of Fell Power, MIC 85
Price: 8,000 gp (lesser), 18,000 gp (greater)
Body Slot: Throat
Caster Level: 6th (lesser), 9th (greater)
Aura: Moderate; DC 18 (lesser), DC 19 (greater) evocation
Activation: --
Weight: --

Eldritch symbols are woven through this long strip of cloth, their colors shifting endlessly as the light hits them.

Each stole of arcane power is attuned to either Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law.
Lesser: While wearing one, spells you cast with a matching alignment descriptor deal an additional 1d6 points of damage, if the spells deal hit point damage. If you aren’t an opposing alignment, your eldritch blast deals an additional die of damage.
Greater: As the lesser version, except instead it adds an extra 2d6 points of damage to your aligned spells and your eldritch blast deals an additional 2 dice of damage.
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, eldritch blast or chaos hammer (chaos), holy smite (good), order’s wrath (law), unholy blight (evil)
Cost to create: 4,000 gp, 320 XP, 8 days (lesser); 9,000 gp, 720 XP, 18 days (greater)
Rod of Eldritch Power
Found in Complete Mage, page 127.

Warlock’s Scepter
Found in Magic Item Compendium, page 63. Update pending.



Change Log (3/18/2012)
Spoiler
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My homebrew - If you use it, please let me know how it goes!

Current Projects - Warlock rewrite

1st place in GITP Monster Competition LV and LVI

Last edited by MammonAzrael : 03-18-2012 at 04:28 AM.
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:34 PM   Top  -  End  -  #5
RedWarlock
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

I like it!

Warlock is my favorite 3.5 class, I loved the based mechanics of it, and I always hated how people thought it was underpowered. This seems like a very solid improvement.

My favorite concept from ways back was the idea of a half-ogre warlock, with an emphasis on melee-channeled hideous blow. (He predated Eldritch Glaive) Now I've got to consider, which heritage I should aim for. I could see Giant, but I think I might favor Demonic. Depending on what you want to do with them, they all seem like solid ideas, though.
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Old 12-17-2011, 12:01 AM   Top  -  End  -  #6
Ziegander
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

Renew Item seems to be almost outrageously broken. I really like almost every change and addition you've made to the class, but once you hit 20th level you're handing out the equivalent of at-will Wizard spellcasting of whatever spells the Warlock can buy/find in Wands or Staffs.

On thing you really should do is come up with some new invocations (and probably shapes and essences) geared toward the various heritages, because as of right now half or more of the WotC ones are appropriate only for Demonic or Infernal Heritage.
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Old 12-17-2011, 12:20 AM   Top  -  End  -  #7
RedWarlock
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

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Originally Posted by Ziegander View Post
Renew Item seems to be almost outrageously broken. I really like almost every change and addition you've made to the class, but once you hit 20th level you're handing out the equivalent of at-will Wizard spellcasting of whatever spells the Warlock can buy/find in Wands or Staffs.
Actually, no, it doesn't. The Renew Item ability specifies it only recharges per-day items, like Eternal Wands, and a lot of the stuff in the Magic Item Compendium that have daily charges. It's powerful, but not nearly as strong as you're thinking. Not a bad deal, by that level.

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On thing you really should do is come up with some new invocations (and probably shapes and essences) geared toward the various heritages, because as of right now half or more of the WotC ones are appropriate only for Demonic or Infernal Heritage.
Agreed here. Though I think generalizing the fiendish ones might not be a bad idea, adding generic flavor that can be bent towards a particular heritage.
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Old 12-17-2011, 12:28 AM   Top  -  End  -  #8
Ziegander
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Originally Posted by RedWarlock View Post
Actually, no, it doesn't. The Renew Item ability specifies it only recharges per-day items, like Eternal Wands, and a lot of the stuff in the Magic Item Compendium that have daily charges. It's powerful, but not nearly as strong as you're thinking. Not a bad deal, by that level.
Ah, thank you for the clarification. That makes it much more acceptable, yes.

Quote:
I think generalizing the fiendish ones might not be a bad idea, adding generic flavor that can be bent towards a particular heritage.
Certainly that would help too. I think someone else has already done the legwork on this aspect, though I can't remember who would have. Perhaps Errant X?
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Old 12-17-2011, 01:12 AM   Top  -  End  -  #9
Letums Gate
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

I absolutely love this rework! It looks so good and adds that flavor the Warlock always seemed to be missing. I can not wait for the other Heritages you plan to add. I plan on using the Angelic version as soon as I can. Your rework reminds me allot of the pathfinder sorcerer and that is very cool. I just hope your dragon Heritage is better then the draconic blood line.

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Old 12-17-2011, 02:15 AM   Top  -  End  -  #10
Mike_the_Mystic
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

I love this rework a lot. The heritages are phenomenal and I would love to try out Giant Heritage one day.
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Old 12-17-2011, 03:13 AM   Top  -  End  -  #11
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

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I like it!

Warlock is my favorite 3.5 class, I loved the based mechanics of it, and I always hated how people thought it was underpowered. This seems like a very solid improvement.

My favorite concept from ways back was the idea of a half-ogre warlock, with an emphasis on melee-channeled hideous blow. (He predated Eldritch Glaive) Now I've got to consider, which heritage I should aim for. I could see Giant, but I think I might favor Demonic. Depending on what you want to do with them, they all seem like solid ideas, though.
Thanks!

Demonic and Giant are the two heritages that lean towards melee the most, so they're both good choices. At this point it probably depends on how evil you want him to be.

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On thing you really should do is come up with some new invocations (and probably shapes and essences) geared toward the various heritages, because as of right now half or more of the WotC ones are appropriate only for Demonic or Infernal Heritage.
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Agreed here. Though I think generalizing the fiendish ones might not be a bad idea, adding generic flavor that can be bent towards a particular heritage.
This is the plan. I'm working on updating and adding invocations, as right now I'm obviously not finished. I'm currently undecided on how low I'll go, but most ancestral invocations will be exclusive to only a select few heritages.

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I absolutely love this rework! It looks so good and adds that flavor the Warlock always seemed to be missing. I can not wait for the other Heritages you plan to add. I plan on using the Angelic version as soon as I can. Your rework reminds me allot of the pathfinder sorcerer and that is very cool. I just hope your dragon Heritage is better then the draconic blood line.
The dragon one is actually quite tricky, because dragons are actually fairly bland in their non-physical commonalities, and we've also got the dragonfire adept. I'm workin' on it though! I haven't read through Pathfinder at all, but I'm glad you're reminded of their work!

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I love this rework a lot. The heritages are phenomenal and I would love to try out Giant Heritage one day.
Thanks!
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Old 12-17-2011, 10:21 AM   Top  -  End  -  #12
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

I like it. I'm getting the idea for a prestige class geared to this, but I only just finished another one so I might wait a bit before doing that.
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Old 12-17-2011, 12:14 PM   Top  -  End  -  #13
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I like most of it, though the fey bloodline doesn't seem all that fey in nature and i'm completely lost how having giant blood allows you to shoot magic out of your hands [not least because most giants don't have any Su abilities at all...]
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Old 12-17-2011, 03:06 PM   Top  -  End  -  #14
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I like most of it, though the fey bloodline doesn't seem all that fey in nature and i'm completely lost how having giant blood allows you to shoot magic out of your hands [not least because most giants don't have any Su abilities at all...]
MA mentions that the Giant bloodline is closer to the giants in Eberron (which could actually shoot magic out of their hands, particularly those with the Primordial Giant bloodline) and titans, rather than the lowly giants. Frost giants may also qualify, as despite being warriors they're also pretty keen with the divine magic.

Some of the things I have to mention is why keep dual blast with two rays instead of trying to assimilate it to BAB, at least allowing an 8th - 10th level or higher to shoot two bolts and a 15th-20th level character to shoot three. Two blasts seems a bit shorthanded by 15th level, even if they get full blast damage, especially as a full round action. Eldritch Glaive, Hideous Blow and the Eldritch Claws feat may act separately, and won't be affected by the Dual Blast ability, unless I'm missing something.

Another is how you've worked the Warlock to be based on ancestry, but how Imbue Item and Renew Item seem to be a bit off (even if part of the original class). I would suggest delving a bit closer to Deceive Item rather than to Imbue Item, out of fitting the flavor of a caster a bit better. A capstone that grants a, say, +2 increase to the CL of any item you wield would be decent, since it could make high level spells work almost at full power and make lower level spells work slightly better. I know Deceive Item and Imbue Item are meant to be related, but Imbue Item seems to be the craft of the Artificer (pun intended) than the craft of the Warlock. The Warlock works great as a deceiver, but not exactly as a crafter.
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Old 12-17-2011, 03:08 PM   Top  -  End  -  #15
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Some of the things I have to mention is why keep dual blast with two rays instead of trying to assimilate it to BAB, at least allowing an 8th - 10th level or higher to shoot two bolts and a 15th-20th level character to shoot three. Two blasts seems a bit shorthanded by 15th level, even if they get full blast damage, especially as a full round action. Eldritch Glaive, Hideous Blow and the Eldritch Claws feat may act separately, and won't be affected by the Dual Blast ability, unless I'm missing something.
I fully agree with this. This is the one other thing that bugged me about the rewrite. If you're going with Dual Blast, you may as well go whole hog and just allow Eldritch Blast to be used with iterative attacks and build that into the original Eldritch Blast class feature from the start.
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Old 12-17-2011, 04:34 PM   Top  -  End  -  #16
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

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I like it. I'm getting the idea for a prestige class geared to this, but I only just finished another one so I might wait a bit before doing that.
You're more than welcome to. And if you give me a heads up if/when you do make one, I'll link to it here.

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I like most of it, though the fey bloodline doesn't seem all that fey in nature and i'm completely lost how having giant blood allows you to shoot magic out of your hands [not least because most giants don't have any Su abilities at all...]
Why doesn't the Fey heritage feel all that "Fey" to you? What sorts of things were you expecting? Remember that most of the abilities need to be fairly passive, otherwise they'd make more sense as invocations.

As T.G. Oskar pointed out, I mentioned that the Giant heritage is influenced heavily from the Eberron style of giant. Additionally, if you look through the various SRD giants, many of them have an innate magical connection (elemental, admittedly, but still magical).

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Some of the things I have to mention is why keep dual blast with two rays instead of trying to assimilate it to BAB, at least allowing an 8th - 10th level or higher to shoot two bolts and a 15th-20th level character to shoot three. Two blasts seems a bit shorthanded by 15th level, even if they get full blast damage, especially as a full round action. Eldritch Glaive, Hideous Blow and the Eldritch Claws feat may act separately, and won't be affected by the Dual Blast ability, unless I'm missing something.
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I fully agree with this. This is the one other thing that bugged me about the rewrite. If you're going with Dual Blast, you may as well go whole hog and just allow Eldritch Blast to be used with iterative attacks and build that into the original Eldritch Blast class feature from the start.
One reason that I didn't grant all EBs iterative attacks is so the melee options retained a noticeable advantage for the range trade off. I mean, why would you ever take Eldritch Glaive over Eldritch Spear if the only thing you got out of it was being able to stand next to your enemies instead of 250 feet away? I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that two blasts is a fullround action - It's a standard and a swift action, so you can still move around.

I chose level 15 for several reasons:
  • It's when you gain your third iterative attack, making the methods to do grant iterative attacks remain their special feeling of double your normal number of attacks.
  • I've seen a bunch of 5-level warlock PrCs that focus on a specific invocation or something, so it's a good break point for someone that wanted a 5-level PrC.
  • As this Warlock isn't intended to be a top-level blaster, I didn't want them getting it too early.

I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about in regards to EG, HB, and EC, but if you chose to use your melee options, you'd still be able to spend a swift action to use your EB once. I can see some messiness there, and if it stays I'll clean that up.

A quick note: I'm completely open to changing things, and I apologize if I come off as stubborn or unbending. I just like to have a discussion as to how and why a change should be implemented first, as well as explain my original intentions.

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Another is how you've worked the Warlock to be based on ancestry, but how Imbue Item and Renew Item seem to be a bit off (even if part of the original class). I would suggest delving a bit closer to Deceive Item rather than to Imbue Item, out of fitting the flavor of a caster a bit better. A capstone that grants a, say, +2 increase to the CL of any item you wield would be decent, since it could make high level spells work almost at full power and make lower level spells work slightly better. I know Deceive Item and Imbue Item are meant to be related, but Imbue Item seems to be the craft of the Artificer (pun intended) than the craft of the Warlock. The Warlock works great as a deceiver, but not exactly as a crafter.
Hmm...an interesting point, I can see where you're coming from. I couls see possible switching Imbue Item and the Giant's Eldritch Soul, making Giants the premier forgers, instead of having all warlocks good at it.
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Old 12-17-2011, 04:59 PM   Top  -  End  -  #17
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One reason that I didn't grant all EBs iterative attacks is so the melee options retained a noticeable advantage for the range trade off. I mean, why would you ever take Eldritch Glaive over Eldritch Spear if the only thing you got out of it was being able to stand next to your enemies instead of 250 feet away? I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that two blasts is a fullround action - It's a standard and a swift action, so you can still move around.

I chose level 15 for several reasons:
  • It's when you gain your third iterative attack, making the methods to do grant iterative attacks remain their special feeling of double your normal number of attacks.
  • I've seen a bunch of 5-level warlock PrCs that focus on a specific invocation or something, so it's a good break point for someone that wanted a 5-level PrC.
  • As this Warlock isn't intended to be a top-level blaster, I didn't want them getting it too early.

I'm not sure exactly what you're talking about in regards to EG, HB, and EC, but if you chose to use your melee options, you'd still be able to spend a swift action to use your EB once. I can see some messiness there, and if it stays I'll clean that up.
Alright, let me make it a bit clear.

As it stands, eldritch blast is a standard action ranged touch attack (as far as I can comprehend it), which deals 1d6 + 1d6/2 class levels after the first, so you deal 1d6 at 1st level, 2d6 at 3rd, and so on. Since it can be used at will and improved, it's not so bad to have. At 15th level, the warlock uses two blasts instead of one, but at full power. Eldritch Glaive (which forms a weapon) and Hideous Blow (which adds the EB damage to the weapon) allow you to use your BAB for multiple applications per round, but essentially only at melee. Eldritch Claws allow you to form claws, which work as natural weapons (IIRC) that deal EB damage; if you find a way to make multiple natural attacks, you can deal multiple EB damage (particularly with Pounce).

What I propose is very similar to how I worked it out; I don't like to show off my work, but that doesn't mean I can't use it as an example. Dual Blast as presented is an actually good idea: you tie it to class levels rather than your BAB, which makes Eldritch Glaive and Hideous Blow good for multiclass characters and prizes fidelity to the class. However, two blasts at that level doesn't seem much, when a Rogue can chuck six splash weapons and deal its sneak attack damage at range, ignoring Dex AND making it ranged touch attacks. All it requires is a potion of greater invisibility and many flasks, of which you can have with different flavors, and technically it works right from Core. This may seem really exaggerate, but to keep up with that top of damage, or even lower limits (the humble Power Attacker, for example), you need to deliver some reasonable options.

Lowering Dual Blast to 8th level, or even to 10th level, allows the Warlock to become pretty competitive right at those levels even from afar. Melee-locks would still have the advantage, as since their amount of hits is based by their BAB (or really, their iteratives), they take advantage of Divine Power, as well as any "extra attack when making a full-attack action" buffs (Hideous Blow and Eldritch Claws, particularly). Dual Blast behaves differently, as it negates many of the chances of landing a third or even fourth blast, because it requires a full-round action instead of a full attack action. Note the big difference, and that's something which works right as you're working Dual Blast right now.

These would be my responses to the two concerns regarding Eldritch Blast: why choose Hideous Blow/Eldritch Glaive if I can do the same hits while at range (second response)? Will Eldritch Blast do too much damage for an "at-will" ability (first response)? If you find both answers to be conclusive, then you can see why placing a "Triple Blast" ability between levels 15th-20th wouldn't be a bad idea. Since it doesn't depend on your BAB but rather on your class levels, only those Warlocks that remain up to 14th level have a chance to get three attacks, and still get all the other loads of goodies, whereas those who decide to multiclass will probably miss the benefits (particularly if Triple Blast becomes a 20th level ability).

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Hmm...an interesting point, I can see where you're coming from. I couls see possible switching Imbue Item and the Giant's Eldritch Soul, making Giants the premier forgers, instead of having all warlocks good at it.
Almost like if you read my mind. Yes, I see Giants as the "crafting" ancestry, giving it something different to work with aside from "titans or ancient awesome civilization".
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Old 12-17-2011, 06:37 PM   Top  -  End  -  #18
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

That is much clearer, thank you. The one thing I am still puzzled by is your reference to full round and full attack actions. As the class stands right now, it is a standard action to fire an eldritch blast, and then a swift action to fire a second with dual blast. Those don't add up to a full round or full attack action.

You have certainly persuaded me to lower the level you acquire Dual Blast, and quite probably add in a triple option. I'll have to rejigger when various abilities are granted, but right now I'm thinking of sticking Dual Blast at either 8 or 10, and then Triple Blast 10 levels later, at either 18 or 20. If 20, I'd move Renew Item to be gained earlier.

I think I'll need to rewrite both Eldritch Glaive and Eldritch Blow to work better with Dual/Triple Blast, and I really need to get a copy of Dragon 358 so I can read Eldritch Claws.
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Old 12-18-2011, 06:45 AM   Top  -  End  -  #19
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

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Why doesn't the Fey heritage feel all that "Fey" to you? What sorts of things were you expecting? Remember that most of the abilities need to be fairly passive, otherwise they'd make more sense as invocations.
I can't necessarily explain it; I've just spent so much time reading folklore for Fae-o-matic that it feels kind of off. Partly because standard D&D fey would also possess fome kind of charm ability.

I could see the "natural world messing with you" feature split over two different grades in place of the invisibility one and that taking its place: perhaps an entangling effect [i know Freedom of Movement is a problem there, but it does hinder spellcasting and FoM is kind of broken anyway] for the first power and then some kind of full on damaging binding later on [the Complete Divine version of Briar Web should serve as a nasty basis]

In real lore, i've only really heard of invisibility while they're hiding after messing with you, laughter pouring out of nowhere, possibly why the Greater Invisibility doesn't seem very fairy-ish.

Those are just the thoughts of someone who's spent far too much time reading about/designing fairies.

As an aside, you mention the fire giants elemental link in your response on the giants thing [which may as well be called "Titan bloodline"] and i'm wondering if you have plans to add an elemental chain. It would certainly fit and Antimony from Gunnerkrieg Court could serve as inspiration.
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Old 12-18-2011, 08:54 AM   Top  -  End  -  #20
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

This is a lovely rewrite. Thank you.
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Old 12-18-2011, 03:01 PM   Top  -  End  -  #21
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

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I can't necessarily explain it; I've just spent so much time reading folklore for Fae-o-matic that it feels kind of off. Partly because standard D&D fey would also possess fome kind of charm ability.

I could see the "natural world messing with you" feature split over two different grades in place of the invisibility one and that taking its place: perhaps an entangling effect [i know Freedom of Movement is a problem there, but it does hinder spellcasting and FoM is kind of broken anyway] for the first power and then some kind of full on damaging binding later on [the Complete Divine version of Briar Web should serve as a nasty basis]

In real lore, i've only really heard of invisibility while they're hiding after messing with you, laughter pouring out of nowhere, possibly why the Greater Invisibility doesn't seem very fairy-ish.

Those are just the thoughts of someone who's spent far too much time reading about/designing fairies.

As an aside, you mention the fire giants elemental link in your response on the giants thing [which may as well be called "Titan bloodline"] and i'm wondering if you have plans to add an elemental chain. It would certainly fit and Antimony from Gunnerkrieg Court could serve as inspiration.
I can understand how it feels a bit off for someone who's been doing research or lots of folklore - I put it together mainly from personal recollections and some fey available on the SRD. I agree that a charm thing is a big component, and I was thinking of incorporating that into exclusive invocations. I suppose it could be a gaze attack of some kind though.

So in actual lore there isn't much of fey hiding among people, passing themselves off through clever disguises? Hmm...I could see Reflective Glamer becoming an invocation pretty easily...Unless you're saying you have a problem with the Eyebite ability?

As for elementals, yes that is a planned heritage. I'll check out that link, thanks. And I'll take the name change under consideration!

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This is a lovely rewrite. Thank you.
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Old 12-18-2011, 04:49 PM   Top  -  End  -  #22
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It's eyebite more than anything, if i'm honest. Or at least it's the invisibility part of eyebite.

It's kinda hard to explain beyond that. There's a few examples of invisible creatures but they're rarely openly aggressive, most likely to push things over onto you or steal your cows or something.

If it allowed them a short move and a free hide check, it would seem sillier but would probably be more accurate.

Y'know, now tha i've written this, i'm actually thinking that it's all cool. Perhaps renaming it to "Glammer Mask" or something but other that that, it's pretty cool from a certain point of view. "Ow, i've been shot... Wait, there did he go and why is there a wash tub in the middle of the battlefield?"

Reflective glammer is pretty apt actually.
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Old 12-18-2011, 07:06 PM   Top  -  End  -  #23
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

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It's eyebite more than anything, if i'm honest. Or at least it's the invisibility part of eyebite.

It's kinda hard to explain beyond that. There's a few examples of invisible creatures but they're rarely openly aggressive, most likely to push things over onto you or steal your cows or something.

If it allowed them a short move and a free hide check, it would seem sillier but would probably be more accurate.

Y'know, now tha i've written this, i'm actually thinking that it's all cool. Perhaps renaming it to "Glammer Mask" or something but other that that, it's pretty cool from a certain point of view. "Ow, i've been shot... Wait, there did he go and why is there a wash tub in the middle of the battlefield?"

Reflective glammer is pretty apt actually.
Well the name "eyebite" and it's basic effect was taken directly from a 4th edition At-Will power. it's certainly much different that the 3.5 spell of the same name. I can certainly see a renaming of it...name pondering shall be included in the next update.
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Old 12-18-2011, 11:48 PM   Top  -  End  -  #24
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The dragon one is actually quite tricky, because dragons are actually fairly bland in their non-physical commonalities, and we've also got the dragonfire adept. I'm workin' on it though! I haven't read through Pathfinder at all, but I'm glad you're reminded of their work!
Well from what I see the dragonfire adept really is just a dragon version of the warlock so giving the dragon heritage some adept like ability's would not be bad. My major interest is really going to be in the undead heritage. I am curious on which direction your going to take it. If your interested in suggestions maybe some thing similar to the dread necromancer.
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Old 12-19-2011, 03:27 PM   Top  -  End  -  #25
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It definitely improves on the flavor of the warlock. As far as balance is concerned it seems pretty good.
My only worry is that it can do a little bit of everything and can do it fairly well. Although I wouldn't normally think of this as a problem (as this is what makes the rogue fun), you have to factor in unlimited use invocations (so it can do everything and spellcasting). But it still clearly places itself in tier 3 (which is probably my favorite balance point).
This is actually the same thing I am worried about with a necromancer I'm currently working on.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:58 PM   Top  -  End  -  #26
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

Awesome Warlock rebuild, love it!

Incidentally I homebrewed an invoker that expanded upon the allegiance/pact concept that the warlock introduced. If you'd like to have a look its in my sig, please comment!
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Old 02-08-2012, 03:58 AM   Top  -  End  -  #27
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

Got a bunch of updates, including two new lineages, Draconic and Undead!

I'll be adding more invocations, both retools and my own over the coming weeks. Of particular focus will be invocations that are accessible to only certain, or even singular, lineages.
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Old 02-08-2012, 03:57 PM   Top  -  End  -  #28
Killercloud
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

I really, really liked this rewrite, until I looked over some of the heritages and started to think, "Wow, these are amazing, why would I ever want to multiclass...uh oh."

The Heritages (which I read last mind you.) read crank this class to power level 11. While still now Wizard or Cleric (though not far off in some cases) the balancing factors really go out the window with some of the abilities, especially at lower levels, and the capstones

I mean, at second level +2 defection bonus, AND +2 resistance bonus to saves, that affects allies within 10 feat as well? Why make a Bard who can give +1 (or maybe +2) attack and damage, when I can play this as an angelic style and boost the weak rear end characters, all the while lobbing deadly magical doom.

I do like the separated progressions for Invocations and Blast Shapes/Essences, but I think it should've been six not eight, only because of how precious a resource the invocations are (consider it that each one is like a bonus feat, as extra invocation is one that does something similar.)

I would like to also mention that as this stands now, a Warlock can do crazy damage, way more than any other class by 18th level. Warlock 15/Hellfire Warlock 3. Crucible of Fell power (I think that's the scepter's name, I am doing this on a night without sleep, forgive any failures of context), and the throat slot item from the MiC. Using a full charge from the scepter, add in Hellfire and a triple blast, in one turn you can deal 78d6 (or 78d12 for demonic) up to ten times per scepter and even without that its still 63d6 (or 63d12) which is a massive amount of damage.

This doesn't include chance for missing OR for critical hits. This is literally an average of 278 (or 507 for demonic). I mean...Holy...er Unholy Crap!

I can't really talk to the other mechanics because, well I really like them, I think they all mesh to the flavor you are building well. I just don't know if Warlock is a class that needs a power every single level. I mean, it seems that this build's power takes it to eleven, and the shrugs and writes on a little twelve and sees how much louder it can get!

I will admit I only read down to the demonic heritage, but that one caught my eye as going way over the power scale. I mean, I suppose it has something to do with my DM distrust of Homebrew, and what it does to classes, I mean this is literally tier hopping crazy. Yeah, anyway summarizing time.

I really like what you were going for, but the balance seems to disappear when triple blasting, and the heritages get together to make inane combos.
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:16 PM   Top  -  End  -  #29
MammonAzrael
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Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

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Originally Posted by Killercloud View Post
I really, really liked this rewrite, until I looked over some of the heritages and started to think, "Wow, these are amazing, why would I ever want to multiclass...uh oh."
Multiclassing should be a choice you make for building a specific character. Whether it's another base class or a prestige class, you should never be taking it for no reason other than "It's just stronger". This is a major fault with many of the official made classes, and one that I strive to avoid. A base class should be worth taking 20 full levels in.

Additionally, if PrCs were made based off this class, they would likely include some form of heritage advancement.

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Originally Posted by Killercloud View Post
The Heritages (which I read last mind you.) read crank this class to power level 11. While still now Wizard or Cleric (though not far off in some cases) the balancing factors really go out the window with some of the abilities, especially at lower levels, and the capstones
Yes, they provide a lot of the power of the class. And while they're stronger, they still remain behind full casters in terms of power and utility.

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Originally Posted by Killercloud View Post
I mean, at second level +2 defection bonus, AND +2 resistance bonus to saves, that affects allies within 10 feat as well? Why make a Bard who can give +1 (or maybe +2) attack and damage, when I can play this as an angelic style and boost the weak rear end characters, all the while lobbing deadly magical doom.
Note that Protective Aura only applies against evil creatures. And while that will make is extremely good against say a necromancer, it'll do little if you run up against a back of animals, or a neutral thieves guild, and so on. Additionally, 10 feet isn't that far unless you're fighting in hallways, and severely reduces it's usefulness for maneuverability.

Also, you play a Bard instead of a Warlock because Bard fits the flavor of your class better.

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Originally Posted by Killercloud View Post
I do like the separated progressions for Invocations and Blast Shapes/Essences, but I think it should've been six not eight, only because of how precious a resource the invocations are (consider it that each one is like a bonus feat, as extra invocation is one that does something similar.)
Essences and Shapes often receive less love because they are just not as good as other invocations. Eight are available for 2 reasons.
  1. The symmetry of gaining an invocation every level flows better on both the chart and feels more natural, instead of having to remember that there are two levels where you don't learn a new invocation.
  2. This allows you to have 1 shape and 1 essence of each Least, Lesser, Greater, and Ancestry, so that each grade can get it's time in the sun.

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Originally Posted by Killercloud View Post
I would like to also mention that as this stands now, a Warlock can do crazy damage, way more than any other class by 18th level. Warlock 15/Hellfire Warlock 3. Crucible of Fell power (I think that's the scepter's name, I am doing this on a night without sleep, forgive any failures of context), and the throat slot item from the MiC. Using a full charge from the scepter, add in Hellfire and a triple blast, in one turn you can deal 78d6 (or 78d12 for demonic) up to ten times per scepter and even without that its still 63d6 (or 63d12) which is a massive amount of damage.

This doesn't include chance for missing OR for critical hits. This is literally an average of 278 (or 507 for demonic). I mean...Holy...er Unholy Crap!
There are two items that increase an eldritch blast's damage: the Warlock's Scepter and the Chasuble of Fell Power. The Greater Chasuble adds 2d6 to an EB, while the Scepter can, once per day, add 4d6. Combined with Hellfire Blast, you're getting +12d6 (at the cost of 3 Con) for the first EB, and +8d6 for every other EB that day.

Eldritch Volley only allows you to fire three blasts at class level 18, not character level 18. I will amend that to be more clear.

Added to the base 9d6, you're looking at 38d6 total, or ~133 damage (~247 for Demonic). By 18th level that really shouldn't be too insane. It's certainly respectable, but it's nothing mind-blowing. Particularly since that is just about as high as you can take that damage, whereas other methods, including simple melee attacks, can rocket up past that with the same level of optimization effort. Heck, an unmodified disintegrate dishing out 36d6 damage at that level, and you can bet that isn't the most powerful option the wizard has available.

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Originally Posted by Killercloud View Post
I can't really talk to the other mechanics because, well I really like them, I think they all mesh to the flavor you are building well. I just don't know if Warlock is a class that needs a power every single level. I mean, it seems that this build's power takes it to eleven, and the shrugs and writes on a little twelve and sees how much louder it can get!
I'm glad you like them! But every class should get things every level. Dead levels are heresy in game design. If you level up and all you're doing is increasing a couple numbers by 1 and rolling for hit points, you're playing a poorly designed class, full stop. This class is unquestionably powerful out of the box, but that is how classes should be - you shouldn't need hours of book-diving and intimate knowledge of the rules to make a class powerful.

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Originally Posted by Killercloud View Post
I will admit I only read down to the demonic heritage, but that one caught my eye as going way over the power scale. I mean, I suppose it has something to do with my DM distrust of Homebrew, and what it does to classes, I mean this is literally tier hopping crazy. Yeah, anyway summarizing time.
Sounds like you got caught up on the damage capability of the Demonic lineage (which is it's main focus). It can certainly do some impressive things, but HP damage is easily replaced, and PO'd Power Attacking characters will still out-damage it.

I do admit that the class hasn't been properly tested, and the balance is only theoretical, so it's quite possible that numbers need to be tweaked. Thus far the only feedback I've had from actual play has been regarding the angelic lineage, and that feedback was very positive (even given the game had a very heavy evil focus).

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Originally Posted by Killercloud View Post
I really like what you were going for, but the balance seems to disappear when triple blasting, and the heritages get together to make inane combos.
I'm thrilled you took the time to read through it and respond. It's the only way the class will improve. Balance is a tricky thing, especially in DnD where people play at such differing levels of power. The triple blast is a new addition, and it may be too much. I'm not really sure how heritages are getting together to combo though.

I'd love to hear your responses!
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Old 02-08-2012, 05:52 PM   Top  -  End  -  #30
Killercloud
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Join Date: May 2008
Default Re: The Warlock - a massive rewrite [3.5 Base Class WIP]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
Multiclassing should be a choice you make for building a specific character. Whether it's another base class or a prestige class, you should never be taking it for no reason other than "It's just stronger". This is a major fault with many of the official made classes, and one that I strive to avoid. A base class should be worth taking 20 full levels in.
One of the most compelling ways to say a class is really strong, is when you look at it, you don't see a reason to do anything else. This is just something I read once, is all.

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Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
Yes, they provide a lot of the power of the class. And while they're stronger, they still remain behind full casters in terms of power and utility.
I do agree with the lower power compared to full casters, but they are very comparable compared to the original. I think this is my DM is my head telling me that to power something up beyond its original value is bad. heh.



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Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
Note that Protective Aura only applies against evil creatures. And while that will make is extremely good against say a necromancer, it'll do little if you run up against a back of animals, or a neutral thieves guild, and so on. Additionally, 10 feet isn't that far unless you're fighting in hallways, and severely reduces it's usefulness for maneuverability.
I didn't realize that about the aura. Ignore statement now.

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Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
Also, you play a Bard instead of a Warlock because Bard fits the flavor of your class better.
I really have no clue what I was going for with the Bard comment. I think I derped for a moment.

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Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
Essences and Shapes often receive less love because they are just not as good as other invocations. Eight are available for 2 reasons.
  1. The symmetry of gaining an invocation every level flows better on both the chart and feels more natural, instead of having to remember that there are two levels where you don't learn a new invocation.
  2. This allows you to have 1 shape and 1 essence of each Least, Lesser, Greater, and Ancestry, so that each grade can get it's time in the sun.
Well, I suppose that does make good sense. I suppose it's just my anti-powergamer, attempting to come out.


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Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
There are two items that increase an eldritch blast's damage: the Warlock's Scepter and the Chasuble of Fell Power. The Greater Chasuble adds 2d6 to an EB, while the Scepter can, once per day, add 4d6. Combined with Hellfire Blast, you're getting +12d6 (at the cost of 3 Con) for the first EB, and +8d6 for every other EB that day.
Hellfire is +9d6 and the Chasuble adds 2d6, so isn't that 11d6 per blast? +4d6 for the Scepter once? The Con cost is negligible, merely because of Eternal Wands and Bard Spells.

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Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
Eldritch Volley only allows you to fire three blasts at class level 18, not character level 18. I will amend that tobe more clear.
Derp. for some reason I thought it was Warlock 15 not 18. Gaahhh! Kaaaaahhhnnnn!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
Heck, an unmodified disintegrate dishing out 36d6 damage at that level, and you can bet that isn't the most powerful option the wizard has available.
Yes, but disintegrate allows for a save. We didn't even have to essence or shape this blast.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
I'm glad you like them! But every class should get things every level. Dead levels are heresy in game design. If you level up and all you're doing is increasing a couple numbers by 1 and rolling for hit points, you're playing a poorly designed class, full stop. This class is unquestionably powerful out of the box, but that is how classes should be - you shouldn't need hours of book-diving and intimate knowledge of the rules to make a class powerful.
This is what I like about Pathfinder against 3.5, personally. Power without need for eighteen sourcebooks.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
Sounds like you got caught up on the damage capability of the Demonic lineage (which is it's main focus). It can certainly do some impressive things, but HP damage is easily replaced, and PO'd Power Attacking characters will still out-damage it.
Well it is a bit crazy, and well the capstones are pretty crazy on all of the Heritages I've seen. I mean what other 3.5 class gets as much innately as this warlock. Just saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
I do admit that the class hasn't been properly tested, and the balance is only theoretical, so it's quite possible that numbers need to be tweaked. Thus far the only feedback I've had from actual play has been regarding the angelic lineage, and that feedback was very positive (even given the game had a very heavy evil focus).
I am the only Warlock player in my group. Ever. The games I am in atm have no place for a Warlock, but I am running a Greyhawk based game that I will be testing the power, and versatility of these Warlocks, as villains. I'll let you know how many TPKs I get. :p



Quote:
Originally Posted by MammonAzrael View Post
I'm thrilled you took the time to read through it and respond. It's the only way the class will improve. Balance is a tricky thing, especially in DnD where people play at such differing levels of power. The triple blast is a new addition, and it may be too much. I'm not really sure how heritages are getting together to combo though.
I didn't mean the Heritages across each other, but rather just the overall power increase is pretty incredible. I mean, I don't even know what to say about that other than, Balance is something I don't really respect in DnD, I mainly just point out things that seem to skew it way too hard, one way or another.
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