Splat It! - Permanency Support (Work ALWAYS in Progress)

Lonely Tylenol · 12-23-2011, 07:22 AM

I'm sure nearly every single person here has encountered this problem at some point in time: Either a class, or a class feature, or an ability of some sort seems strong, or shows promise, until you remember one basic, fundamental fact of D&D: Unless it's core-based, it probably doesn't have support outside of the book it's featured in. With few exceptions, classes outside of the PHB don't receive much ACF or spell support, and even certain concepts go largely unexplored in future support.

In the first of what may (or may not) prove to be a promising Splat It! series, I explore one of these concepts: Permanency, a fifth-level spell from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. Permanency offers users the ability to make certain spell effects permanent, at the cost of a certain amount of XP (500 times the spell level, to be exact). Within the realm of a core game, the ability can be applied to a few different spells to do some neat tricks; however, within campaigns of the broader scope, or even campaigns with a different specific focus, the spell can't do that much.

I'd like to remedy that problem.

Included below are spells from more than a dozen different splatbooks, including the Player's Handbook II, the Complete series, and others (as appropriate). For the most part, I have covered all the 3.5 content available to me that isn't setting-specific, although I'd like to with a future update.

In the interests of making this list as comprehensive as possible, if you can think of a spell that should absolutely be on the Permanency list, but isn't, or have a compelling reason why a spell that is on the Permanency list shouldn't be, please include them in a post and I'll sort it out.

Without further ado, the revised Permanency list...

You can make the following spells permanent in regard to yourself.

Spell	Sourcebook	Minimum Caster Level	XP Cost
Arcane Sensitivity	Shining South	9th	500 XP
Arcane Sight	Player's Handbook	11th	1,500 XP
Aura of Terror	Spell Compendium	14th	3,000 XP
Blinding Glory	Book of Exalted Deeds	17th	4,500 XP
Blindsight	Player's Guide to Faerun	10th	1,000 XP
Celestial Brilliance	Book of Exalted Deeds	12th	2,000 XP
Comprehend languages	Player's Handbook	9th	500 XP
Create Magic Tattoo	Spell Compendium	10th	1,000 XP
Darkvision	Player's Handbook	10th	1,000 XP
Dead End	Spell Compendium	9th	500 XP
Deeper Darkvision	Spell Compendium	11th	1,500 XP
Detect Aberration	Eberron Campaign Setting	9th	500 XP
Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law	Player's Handbook*	9th	500 XP
Detect Curse	Oriental Adventures	11th	1,500 XP
Detect Disease	Oriental Adventures	9th	500 XP
Detect Dragonblood	Dragon Magic	9th	500 XP
Detect Dragonmark	Magic of Eberron	9th	500 XP
Detect Ghosts	Ghostwalk	9th	500 XP
Detect Inarcanum	Magic of Inarcanum	9th	500 XP
Detect Magic	Player's Handbook	9th	500 XP
Detect Poison	Player's Handbook*	9th	500 XP
Detect Secret Doors	Player's Handbook*	9th	500 XP
Detect Taint	Heroes of Horror	9th	500 XP
Detect Thoughts	Player's Handbook*	10th	1,000 XP
Detect Undead	Player's Handbook*	9th	500 XP
Discern Shapechanger	Spell Compendium	10th	1,000 XP
Expose the Dead	Magic of Eberron	10th	1,000 XP
Find Traps	Player's Handbook*	10th	1,000 XP
Hoard Gullet	Dragon Magic	9th	500 XP
Karmic Aura	Complete Mage	9th	500 XP
Low-Light Vision	Spell Compendium	9th	500 XP
Luminous Gaze	Spell Compendium	9th	500 XP
Necrotic Awareness	Libris Mortis	9th	500 XP
Read Magic	Player's Handbook	9th	500 XP
Reflective Disguise	Underdark	10th	1,000 XP
Scent	Complete Divine	10th	1,000 XP
Sense of the Dragon	Races of the Dragon	11th	1,500 XP
See invisibility	Player's Handbook	10th	1,000 XP
Spectral Hand	Player's Handbook*	10th	1,000 XP
Suppress Glyph	Magic of Faerun	15th	3,000 XP
Tongues	Player's Handbook	11th	1,500 XP
Tremorsense	Spell Compendium	11th	1,500 XP
Undetectable Alignment	Player's Handbook*	9th	500 XP

In addition to personal use, permanency can be used to make the following spells permanent on yourself, another creature, or an object (as appropriate).

Spell	Sourcebook	Minimum Caster Level	XP Cost
Air Breathing	Spell Compendium	11th	1,500 XP
Detect Animals or Plants	Player's Handbook*	9th	500 XP
Detect Snares and Pits	Player's Handbook*	9th	500 XP
Disguise Undead	Magic of Faerun	10th	1,000 XP
Endure Elements	Player's Handbook*	9th	500 XP
Enlarge Person	Player's Handbook	9th	500 XP
Healthful Rest	Spell Compendium	9th	500 XP
Jagged Tooth	Spell Compendium	11th	1,500 XP
Magic Fang	Player's Handbook	9th	500 XP
Magic Fang, Greater	Player's Handbook	11th	1,500 XP
Misrepresent Alignment	Races of Eberron	10th	1,000 XP
One with the Land	Magic of Faerun	10th	1,000 XP
Reduce Person	Player's Handbook	9th	500 XP
Remove Scent	Spell Compendium	9th	500 XP
Resistance	Player's Handbook	9th	500 XP
Resist Planar Alignment	Spell Compendium	9th	500 XP
Sea Legs	Shining South	9th	500 XP
Sharptooth	Spell Compendium	12th	2,000
Snowshoes	Spell Compendium	9th	500 XP
Spawn Screen	Libris Mortis	10th	1,000 XP
Speak with Animals	Player's Handbook*	9th	500 XP
Speak with Plants	Player's Handbook*	11th	1,500 XP
Speechlink	Magic of Faerun	12th	2,000 XP
Telepathic Bond	Player's Handbook	13th	2,500 XP
Tojanida Sight	Stormwrack	10th	1,000 XP
Water Breathing	Player's Handbook*	11th	1,500 XP

Additionally, the following spells can be cast upon objects or areas only and rendered permanent.

Spell	Sourcebook	Minimum Caster Level	XP Cost
Adamantine Weapon	Magic of Eberron	11th	1,500 XP
Alarm	Player's Handbook	9th	500 XP
Alarm, Greater	Spell Compendium	10th	1,000 XP
Align Weapon	Player's Handbook*	10th	1,000 XP
Animate Objects	Player's Handbook	14th	3,000 XP
Attentive Alarm	Complete Mage	10th	1,000 XP
Billim's Bifrost Bridge	Dragonlance Campaign Setting	11th	1,500 XP
Bridge of Sound	Savage Species	11th	1,500 XP
Caustic Mire	Complete Mage	12th	2,000 XP
Caustic Smoke	Complete Mage	11th	1,500 XP
Climbing Tree	Complete Mage	9th	500 XP
Clothier's Closet	Magic of Eberron	10th	1,000 XP
Cloud Chariot	Oriental Adventures	16th	4,000 XP
Consecrate	Player's Handbook*	10th	1,000 XP
Damning Darkness	Lords of Madness	12th	2,000 XP
Dancing Lights	Player's Handbook	9th	500 XP
Dark Way	Spell Compendium	10th	1,000 XP
Darsson's Chilling Chamber	Shining South	10th	1,000 XP
Darsson's Cooling Breeze	Shining South	9th	500 XP
Darsson's Fiery Furnace	Shining South	10th	1,000 XP
Desecrate	Player's Handbook*	10th	1,000 XP
Ectoplasmic Web	Ghostwalk	11th	1,500 XP
Energized Shield	Spell Compendium	11th	1,500 XP
Energized Shield, Lesser	Spell Compendium	10th	1,000 XP
Fang Trap	Serpent Kingdoms	12th	2,000 XP
Fire Trap	Player's Handbook*	12th	2,000 XP
Fog Cloud	Player's Handbook*	10th	1,000 XP
Force Chest	Spell Compendium	12th	2,000 XP
Force Ladder	Spell Compendium	10th	1,000 XP
Ghost Lantern	Complete Mage	12th	2,000 XP
Ghost Sound	Player's Handbook	9th	500 XP
Ghost Touch Armor	Spell Compendium	10th	1,000 XP
Ghoul Glyph	Libris Mortis	10th	1,000 XP
Ghoul Light	Libris Mortis	9th	500 XP
Glyph of Warding	Player's Handbook*	11th	1,500 XP
Greenfire	Unapproachable East	11th	1,500 XP
Gust of Wind	Player's Handbook	11th	1,500 XP
Haboob	Sandstorm	11th	1,500 XP
Hallucinatory Terrain	Player's Handbook*	12th	2,000 XP
Hidden Ward	Magic of Eberron	9th	500 XP
Holy Sword	Player's Handbook*	12th	2,000 XP
Illusory Script	Player's Handbook*	11th	1,500 XP
Invisibility	Player's Handbook	10th	1,000 XP
Keen Edge	Player's Handbook*	11th	1,500 XP
Mage’s Private Sanctum	Player's Handbook	13th	2,500 XP
Magic Aura	Player's Handbook*	9th	500 XP
Magic Mouth	Player's Handbook	10th	1,000 XP
Magic Vestments	Player's Handbook*	11th	1,500 XP
Magic Weapon	Player's Handbook*	9th	500 XP
Magic Weapon, Greater	Player's Handbook*	12th	2,000 XP
Moon Path	Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting	13th	2,500 XP
Nightmare Terrain	Complete Mage	12th	2,000 XP
Obscure Object	Player's Handbook*	10th	1,000 XP
Path of Frost	Dragon Magic	9th	500 XP
Phantom Battle	Player's Handbook II	12th	2,000 XP
Phase Door	Player's Handbook	15th	3,500 XP
Prismatic Sphere	Player's Handbook	17th	4,500 XP
Prismatic Spray	Player's Handbook II	11th	1,500 XP
Prismatic Wall	Player's Handbook	16th	4,000 XP
Refusal	Spell Compendium	13th	2,500 XP
Resinous Tar	Complete Mage	9th	500 XP
Returning Weapon	Races of the Wild	10th	1,000 XP
Safe Clearing	Magic of Faerun	11th	1,500 XP
Scattering Trap	Player's Handbook II	11th	1,500 XP
Shrink Item	Player's Handbook	11th	1,500 XP
Snare	Player's Handbook*	11th	1,500 XP
Solid Fog	Player's Handbook	12th	2,000 XP
Spikes	Spell Compendium	11th	1,500 XP
Stinking Cloud	Player's Handbook	11th	1,500 XP
Suspended Silence	Spell Compendium	11th	1,500 XP
Symbol of Death	Player's Handbook	16th	4,000 XP
Symbol of Fear	Player's Handbook	14th	3,000 XP
Symbol of Insanity	Player's Handbook	16th	4,000 XP
Symbol of Pain	Player's Handbook	13th	2,500 XP
Symbol of Persuasion	Player's Handbook	14th	3,000 XP
Symbol of Sleep	Player's Handbook	16th	4,000 XP
Symbol of Spell Loss	Spell Compendium	13th	2,500 XP
Symbol of Stunning	Player's Handbook	15th	3,500 XP
Symbol of Weakness	Player's Handbook	15th	3,500 XP
Telepathic Block	Book of Exalted Deeds	13th	2,500 XP
Teleportation Circle	Player's Handbook	17th	4,500 XP
Tenser's Floating Disk	Player's Handbook*	9th	500 XP
Undead Bane Weapon	Spell Compendium	12th	2,000 XP
Unseen Crafter	Races of Eberron	10th	1,000 XP
Unseen Servant	Player's Handbook*	9th	500 XP
Utterdark	Lords of Madness	17th	4,500 XP
Vanishing Weapon	Book of Exalted Deeds	13th	2,500 XP
Wall of Chaos/Evil/Good/Law	Spell Compendium	12th	2,000 XP
Wall of Dispel Magic	Spell Compendium	12th	2,000 XP
Wall of Fire	Player's Handbook	12th	2,000 XP
Wall of Force	Player's Handbook	13th	2,500 XP
Wall of Gloom	Spell Compendium	10th	1,000 XP
Wall of Ice	Player's Handbook*	12th	2,000 XP
Wall of Magma	Sandstorm	13th	2,500 XP
Wall of Sand	Spell Compendium	12th	2,000 XP
Wall of Scales	Races of the Dragon	12th	2,000 XP
Wall of Water	Sandstorm	12th	2,000 XP
Weapon of Impact	Spell Compendium	11th	1,500 XP
Web	Player's Handbook	10th	1,000 XP
Wind Wall	Player's Handbook*	11th	1,500 XP
Zone of Natural Purity	Eberron Campaign Setting	10th	1,000 XP
Zone of Respite	Spell Compendium	13th	2,500 XP
Zone of Revelation	Spell Compendium	13th	2,500 XP

Notes on spells included in the Permanency list, in the order they were collected. (NOTE: In cases where a spell appeared in both the Spell Compendium and its original source in my book-diving, the Spell Compendium version was invariably used, because it was the second book I looked through. The exception to this is if I missed the spell the first time.)

Unless noted, a spell appeared on the Permanency list on 12-23-2011. This is to keep track of future updates.

Spoiler

Sourcebooks used:

Spoiler

Updates:
- 12-24-2011: Introduced splat support for Eberron and Forgotten Realms campaign settings; introduced support for spells from the Complete Mage, Sandstorm, and Spell Compendium books (revisions) thanks to Dracomortis
- 12-25-2011: Introduced enhanced support for Player's Handbook; revised criteria for spells' inclusion onto the Permanency list (to include certain weapon and armor enhancements); revision of the Spell Compendium list to accommodate the new criteria

To be introduced in future updates:
- Cleaner formatting
- Page numbers, for reference

"Wouldn't it be nice" list:
- "Errata" text for each individual spell (specifying restrictions and what-have-you; this may be an impossibly, or at least unnecessarily, large task)
- Original sources for each spell, as opposed to Spell Compendium or other compilations the spells arrive in

Happy hunting, Giants!

eftexar · 12-23-2011, 11:39 AM

This is nice. There has never been enough support for permanency. Actually, I hadn't noticed it though until you pointed it out. I think I quit bothering with the spell a while ago because I didn't think it couldn't do enough.
I await updates.

Dracomortis · 12-24-2011, 08:42 PM

I propose the following additions, castable upon an object or an area as appropriate. (Also, you mention greater alarm in your spoiler as one of the spells used, but it isn't on any of the tables.)

Spell	Sourcebook	Minimum Caster Level	XP Cost
Attentive Alarm	Complete Mage	10th	1,000 XP
Caustic Mire	Complete Mage	12th	2,000 XP
Caustic Smoke	Complete Mage	11th	1,500 XP
Choking Cobwebs	Complete Mage	15th	3,500 XP
Climbing Tree	Complete Mage	9th	500 XP
Ghost Lantern	Complete Mage	12th	2,000 XP
Haboob	Sandstorm	11th	1,500 XP
Nightmare Terrain	Complete Mage	12th	2,000 XP
Resinous Tar	Complete Mage	9th	500 XP
Wall of Ice	Player's Handbook	12th	2,000 XP
Wall of Magma	Sandstorm	13th	2,500 XP
Wall of Water	Sandstorm	12th	2,000 XP

Lonely Tylenol · 12-24-2011, 09:08 PM

Choking Cobwebs has some fairly insidious implications if you choose to create large quantities of Permanent Choking Cobwebs (like doubling them up for Con damage to death).

Wall of Magma and Wall of Water are already Permanency-able, but need to be put on the list.

I agree with the rest, but I must make special note--in my book-diving, I did find a Wall of X or X Cloud spell that had some negative effect that lasted "for the spell's duration" when contacted, or something to the effect--meaning that both the spell was clearly not meant to be Permanent, and that there are serious implications if it does. Naturally, I passed it over, but in the thousands of spells (OK, I haven't counted, but it feels like thousands) in the lists and entries that I have looked up, I've forgotten what it was.

Just be on the lookout. :)

Updating the spell lists with your revisions now. I have also completed my Eberron additions, and am finishing the Forgotten Realms additions. I intend to include Kingdoms of Kalamar and (what I can of) Dragonlance at a later date.

EDIT: You edited with Wall of Ice from the Player's Handbook. This brings up a point I had been meaning to ask:

Should I comb over the Player's Handbook and look for spells not previously allowed by Permanency to include into the list?

I can see valid arguments being raised either way. On the one hand, there are spells that are clearly within the scope of Permanency's power as written from its existing spell list; casting Permanency on an object affected by Light, for example, is an innocuous use of Permanency. On the other hand, these spells were not included in the original spell list for Permanency, even though they were published concurrently, which suggests that it was beyond the stated intentions of these spells to be included in Permanency's writing as-is.

This list concerns itself primarily with updating Permanency for splatbook support--where the publishers never really had a say--but I can really go either way.

What say you, Playground?

Dracomortis · 12-24-2011, 09:30 PM

I would be in favor of adding additional spells from the Player's Handbook, if there's no obvious way to abuse a permanent version of it.

Lonely Tylenol · 12-24-2011, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dracomortis

I would be in favor of adding additional spells from the Player's Handbook, if there's no obvious way to abuse a permanent version of it.

That works for me. I'll include an asterisk (*) next to spells that are being included in the Player's Handbook that are not on the existing Permanency list. This will immediately follow my wrap-up of Forgotten Realms and will be included in the update later today.

EDIT:

What are your thoughts on including spells which emulate magical weapon properties, such as the second-level Evocation spell Burning Sword, which gives a weapon the Flaming Burst property? I ran into a number of these (not the least of which are Weapon of Impact, Sonic Weapon and Weapon of Energy, all of the Spell Compendium, and Align Weapon, Keen Edge, Magic Weapon and Magic Weapon, Greater from the Player's Handbook). I mean, theoretically they make it possible to have epic-level weapons with these properties earlier than usual (by having a weapon with pre-epic properties and then adding Permanency to them with the above spells), but it also comes with a hefty XP cost and a limited scope (assuming we skip the Artificer infusions).

Basically, this would be extending the precedent set by Magic Fang and Magic Fang, Greater to weapons.

Dracomortis · 12-24-2011, 11:22 PM

It's probably best to (dis)allow them on a case-by-case basis. Align weapon, keen edge, (greater) magic weapon, and weapon of impact seem fine, since they can't stack with similar effects. Weapon of energy might be too much since it explicitly *can* stack with the emulated weapon property and could arguably stack with different damage types of itself (i.e. have the acid, cold, electricity, and fire version of weapon of energy on the same weapon at the same time). Sonic weapon is anyone's guess: while all of the other spells explicitly state whether they do or do not stack with the emulated weapon ability, sonic weapon doesn't. I'd probably leave it out just for being ambiguous.

Viktyr Gehrig · 12-24-2011, 11:26 PM

I'd say that any 24 hour duration buff spell without an expensive M component should be included-- you're essentially trading XP to free up a spell slot. Endure elements and mind blank come to mind.

Totally house rules territory, but have you considered removing permanency from the spell list as simply allowing anyone who can cast an appropriate spell to make it permanent by spending XP? One of my pet peeves.

Lonely Tylenol · 12-24-2011, 11:55 PM

Updated with the following spells:

Spoiler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dracomortis

It's probably best to (dis)allow them on a case-by-case basis. Align weapon, keen edge, (greater) magic weapon, and weapon of impact seem fine, since they can't stack with similar effects. Weapon of energy might be too much since it explicitly *can* stack with the emulated weapon property and could arguably stack with different damage types of itself (i.e. have the acid, cold, electricity, and fire version of weapon of energy on the same weapon at the same time). Sonic weapon is anyone's guess: while all of the other spells explicitly state whether they do or do not stack with the emulated weapon ability, sonic weapon doesn't. I'd probably leave it out just for being ambiguous.

I think that's what I'll end up doing. I just wanted to make sure that it would be no great sin to do so on a case-by-case basis, or whether it should be disallowed by precedent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir

I'd say that any 24 hour duration buff spell without an expensive M component should be included-- you're essentially trading XP to free up a spell slot. Endure elements and mind blank come to mind.

On a case-by-case basis. I am thinking of doing this for Endure Elements and Undetectable Alignment. I want to say Mind Blank would be too powerful, but we're talking about a 16th-level/4,000 xp requirement... Then again, it does free up an 8th-level spell.

I don't know. I would have to think about that. In all likelihood, it will happen on a case-by-case basis.

Input on this matter would be appreciated, though.

Quote:

Totally house rules territory, but have you considered removing permanency from the spell list as simply allowing anyone who can cast an appropriate spell to make it permanent by spending XP? One of my pet peeves.

Nope. The two rounds casting time of Permanency means everything in this regard, especially when you're talking about spells like the Walls and the Clouds, that have practical battleground implications that happen in real-time.

Viktyr Gehrig · 12-25-2011, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol

Nope. The two rounds casting time of Permanency means everything in this regard, especially when you're talking about spells like the Walls and the Clouds, that have practical battleground implications that happen in real-time.

Never noticed that. Build the extended casting time into the permanent casting option? I've never even heard of someone trying to cast permanency in combat.

Lonely Tylenol · 12-25-2011, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir

Never noticed that. Build the extended casting time into the permanent casting option? I've never even heard of someone trying to cast permanency in combat.

I think that has something to do with the two rounds' casting time.

Adding two rounds to the casting time is acceptable, I guess, but frankly I'd rather keep it as a spell (to force Wizards to have to take the option

). You could make it something Sorcerers just do, though.

To answer your question from before about spells with a 24h casting duration: It will be done on a case-by-case basis, but it's worth noting that there are some spells that get a little stupid when Permanency is applied to them, all of which have 24h durations and no expensive material components (all from the Spell Compendium):
Anticipate Teleportation (technically this doesn't matter to anyone but the stingier optimizers, but the last thing I want to do is make Rocket Tag even stupider)
Delay Disease (indefinitely)
Energy Immunity (permanency all energy types for total immunity)
General of Undeath (permanently increasing the HD cap of undead you can control by an amount equal to caster level... Innocuous in most circumstances, but cheesed out when combined with everything else, utterly deserving of the 8th-level slot)
Incorporeal Enhancement (see General of Undeath, but I'm on the fence about this one)
Resistance, Superior (+6 permanent bonus to all saves)
Undead Lieutenant (OK, I take it back. General of Undeath is piddling compared to this. Create multiple Permanent Undead Lieutenants for a NI control undead cap)

However, I have decided to allow the following spells as a consequence of this review (all, also, from the Spell Compendium):
Force Chest (technically 24h/level, but still)
Healthful Rest

OK. On to PHB!

Viktyr Gehrig · 12-25-2011, 01:19 AM

My issue isn't really with Sorcerers, but for all of the casters that don't have it on their class spell lists-- which is, to say, all of them except Archivists, Chameleons, and Clerics with the Time Domain.

Lonely Tylenol · 12-25-2011, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viktyr Korimir

My issue isn't really with Sorcerers, but for all of the casters that don't have it on their class spell lists-- which is, to say, all of them except Archivists, Chameleons, and Clerics with the Time Domain.

Ah.

If you want to houserule it in for this purpose, I see no reason not to. I don't think I would, but it's a perfectly valid reason to.

Daftendirekt · 12-25-2011, 11:36 AM

Just thought I'd point out, you should fix the row for Disguise Undead. Didn't enter the source, so MCL is in source and xp cost is in MCL.

Zeta Kai · 12-25-2011, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol

Naturally, I passed it over, but in the thousands of spells (OK, I haven't counted, but it feels like thousands) in the lists and entries that I have looked up, I've forgotten what it was.

According to this list, which only counts the spells for the PHB & the Spell Compendium, there are 1,607 spells. From just those two books. Of course, those are the two books with the most spells, but still. Every splatbook added at least a dozen new spells, with rare exception, so that list could be much, much higher. For instance, the ELH added the non-epic spell genesis to the SRD. And here are 11 more spells that ended up in the SRD, from god knows where (Deities & Demigods? I dunno, whatever). So that at least 1,618 to look over. Good luck.

Lonely Tylenol · 12-25-2011, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annulus

Just thought I'd point out, you should fix the row for Disguise Undead. Didn't enter the source, so MCL is in source and xp cost is in MCL.

Thanks. I fixed it on my revision last night (to be posted today), but I haven't updated it yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeta Kai

According to this list, which only counts the spells for the PHB & the Spell Compendium, there are 1,607 spells. From just those two books. Of course, those are the two books with the most spells, but still. Every splatbook added at least a dozen new spells, with rare exception, so that list could be much, much higher. For instance, the ELH added the non-epic spell genesis to the SRD. And here are 11 more spells that ended up in the SRD, from god knows where (Deities & Demigods? I dunno, whatever). So that at least 1,618 to look over. Good luck.

Zeta Kai · 12-25-2011, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol

Calm down. About 605 of those are from the PHB, which has presumably been covered by the original designers (in theory). That leaves a little over a thousand spells from the Spell Compendium to look over, which cuts things down considerably. The real work will be to track down all of the spells from various splatbooks, which are myriad, & organized in vastly different manners.

Luckily, in most cases the spells will be grouped together for easy referencing. I just wish for your sake that there existed some central list of every spell ever published by WotC. From their perspective, they consider the SpC to be the omega to the PHB's alpha.

Lonely Tylenol · 12-25-2011, 08:32 PM

Updated with the following spells:

Spoiler

I have elected not to include support for the Kingdoms of Kalamar campaign setting, which is exclusively 3.0, and the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, for which I only have the Dragonlance Campaign Setting book (and no knowledge of other support), which I have already completed.

For all intents and purposes, this completes the list unless people give me new ideas for spells or arguments to have existing ones taken down (I'm expecting certain Wall of spells and weapon enhancement spells to be points of contention, as well as requests for the inclusion of more Cloud/Fog spells).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeta Kai

Calm down. About 605 of those are from the PHB, which has presumably been covered by the original designers (in theory). That leaves a little over a thousand spells from the Spell Compendium to look over, which cuts things down considerably. The real work will be to track down all of the spells from various splatbooks, which are myriad, & organized in vastly different manners.

Luckily, in most cases the spells will be grouped together for easy referencing. I just wish for your sake that there existed some central list of every spell ever published by WotC. From their perspective, they consider the SpC to be the omega to the PHB's alpha.

What concerns me about that was this:

Quote:

To be introduced in future updates:
- Page numbers, for reference

"Wouldn't it be nice" list:
- "Errata" text for each individual spell (specifying restrictions and what-have-you; this may be an impossibly, or at least unnecessarily, large task)
- Original sources for each spell, as opposed to Spell Compendium or other compilations the spells arrive in

The list now includes 157 spells, most of which need errata text (to the effect of "this spell can be made permanent", and clauses for what happens if certain spells are counteracted, like Consecrate/Desecrate), page numbers, and (if I'm feeling particularly brave) original sources. Certainly a daunting task!

I would like to see a universal database for spells, not unlike the one for feats. That way I have something to at least make page numbers and original sources easier for me.

Dracomortis · 12-25-2011, 10:08 PM

I have a few more spells for your consideration. I've included the page number on which each spell appears, and the spoiler contains proposed "errata" to make the spells play nice with permanency.

Self

Spell	Sourcebook	Minimum Caster Level	XP Cost
Detect Dragonblood	Dragon Magic pg. 65	9th	500 XP
Ectoplasmic Feedback	Libris Mortis pg. 64	11th	1,500 XP
Hoard Gullet	Dragon Magic pg. 68	9th	500 XP
Necrotic Awareness	Libris Mortis pg. 67	9th	500 XP
Sense of the Dragon*	Races of the Dragon pg. 117	11th	1,500 XP

*Sense of the dragon can already be made permanent as per its text in Races of the Dragon, it simply needs to be added to the list.

Self, Another Creature, or Object

Spell	Sourcebook	Minimum Caster Level	XP Cost
Returning Weapon	Races of the Wild pg. 175	10th	1,000 XP
Spawn Screen	Libris Mortis pg. 71	10th	1,000 XP

Area or Object

Spell	Sourcebook	Minimum Caster Level	XP Cost
Damning Darkness	Lords of Madness pg. 210	12th	2,000 XP
Ghoul Glyph	Libris Mortis pg. 66	10th	1,000 XP
Path of Frost	Dragon Magic pg. 71	9th	500 XP
Utterdark	Lords of Madness pg. 213	17th	4,500 XP
Wall of Scales	Races of the Dragon pg. 118	12th	2,000 XP

Errata:

Spoiler

Lonely Tylenol · 12-25-2011, 11:38 PM

I agree to all the above except for Ectoplasmic Feedback, which provides a qualitative difference in access to combat-related abilities of the target. This sets it aside from enhancements such as Magic Fang, Girallon's Blessing and Sharptooth, which are quantitative, and Undead Bane Weapon, Energized Shield and Ghost Touch Armor (which affect equipment). It's for this same reason that I will not add spells like Mage Armor to the list, since Mage Armor basically gives the subject an armor score, as opposed to an enhancement bonus to existing armor.

Affecting the subject vs. affecting the object is essentially the only difference between Bless and Magic Weapon, which makes it another point of distinction. (Magic Fang, which set the precedent that Magic Weapon is allowed on, blurs this line, but it's important to note that Magic Fang gives an enhancement bonus to a natural weapon; it does not grant the user attacks with a natural weapon, nor does it make a subject proficient in a natural weapon if they are not already.)

I will put these up now.

(I will not add the page numbers or errata at this time, for the sake of keeping a consistent formatting at this time, but I will store it away for when I undertake the project of page numbering for the whole list, probably sometime this week.)

Many thanks!

EDIT: I just noticed upon closer inspection that Girallon's Blessing produces a qualitative difference as well as a qualitative one (in addition to the additional set of arms, the subject gains the ability to make four claw attacks). This is a contradiction both of the reasoning for the rule mentioned above, as well as of my exclusion of Claws of the Bear, of the Druid spell list (Spell Compendium). Thoughts on this? Should it stay or should it go?

Lonely Tylenol · 12-26-2011, 12:13 AM

Updated with the following spells:

Spoiler

Currently up for discussion:
Allow or forbid Girallon's Blessing/Claws of the Bear/Ectoplasmic Feedback and related effects which provide a qualitative difference on the subject?

ChumpLump · 12-26-2011, 11:25 AM

For what it's worth, I toss my vote in with refraining from adding qualitative spells onto the permanency list.
Seems to open up too many doors.

Also, the dispellability of permanency would be very devastating to a character that so relied on the qualitative difference. It would be a bit of a trap in that.

Just my thoughts.
Also, subscribing to this thread.

Lonely Tylenol · 12-27-2011, 05:28 PM

Updated with the following spells/changes:

Spoiler

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChumpLump

For what it's worth, I toss my vote in with refraining from adding qualitative spells onto the permanency list.
Seems to open up too many doors.

Also, the dispellability of permanency would be very devastating to a character that so relied on the qualitative difference. It would be a bit of a trap in that.

Just my thoughts.
Also, subscribing to this thread.

I agree.

Removed Girallon's Blessing and added Magic Vestments (which I had forgotten from earlier).

Lix Lorn · 12-28-2011, 11:26 AM

I dislike that permanent spells are dispellable...

Also, will you throw things at me for begging for the BoEF?

killem2 · 12-29-2011, 06:29 PM

Just curious, for the spell Animate Weapon, if you made it permanent, if you leave the 30 feet range, can it be animated again and is it permanent? or is the spell undone if you go out of range?

Also, what are your thoughts on things that increase abilities, skills, or attack bonuses, ect. Like True strike, Owl's Wisdom, and so on? I get its asking alot, but surely there can be a fair answer? It may be a long wait for most characters as it would be most balance at higher end levels, almost epic levels.

The next suggestion I have is, Iron Body, the protection from X series, and maybe prying eyes, and the bigby's series.

I'm not exactly sure the formula that is used for this spell.

Veklim · 12-29-2011, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol

That works for me. I'll include an asterisk (*) next to spells that are being included in the Player's Handbook that are not on the existing Permanency list.

You might wanna state that in your initial thread. Nice work otherwise, will ping you if I find anything not here already. Personally been houseruling on the spot for them for years, permanency was never supported enough to begin with, but the fact that they failed to mention it retrospectively in further supplements (i.e. This spell may be affected by the spell Permanency) leads me to wonder if it was a spell deliberately gossed over?

Lonely Tylenol · 12-30-2011, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

I dislike that permanent spells are dispellable...

There's always a risk.

This is, of course, easily countered by simply not making your highest-level spell a Permanent one (so that the temporary spells are targeted first), but making sure the Permanent spells are a high enough caster level to survive most dispel checks regardless.

Quote:

Also, will you throw things at me for begging for the BoEF?

Shouldn't you consult a doctor if most of those spells last too long, though?

Quote:

Originally Posted by killem2

Just curious, for the spell Animate Weapon, if you made it permanent, if you leave the 30 feet range, can it be animated again and is it permanent? or is the spell undone if you go out of range?

(EDIT: Upon review, I'm not finding any mention of objects animated by the Animate Objects spell having an effective maximum range, only of the spell itself having a maximum range upon casting. As far as I can tell, animated objects can be miles away from the caster who animated them; they just need to be within range of the caster when he casts the spell to animate them.)

This same risk is run for Floating Disk, which is on the Permanency list (but is ultimately not worth it, as any Flight, teleportation-like ability from Dimension Door up, or any method of giving yourself a land movement speed above the Floating Disk runs the risk of cancelling it; I may remove it yet).

Quote:

Also, what are your thoughts on things that increase abilities, skills, or attack bonuses, ect. Like True strike, Owl's Wisdom, and so on? I get its asking alot, but surely there can be a fair answer? It may be a long wait for most characters as it would be most balance at higher end levels, almost epic levels.

My opinion on things such as True Strike and especially the ability enhancement spells was summarized quite effectively earlier in this thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol

I agree to all the above except for Ectoplasmic Feedback, which provides a qualitative difference in access to combat-related abilities of the target. This sets it aside from enhancements such as Magic Fang, Girallon's Blessing and Sharptooth, which are quantitative, and Undead Bane Weapon, Energized Shield and Ghost Touch Armor (which affect equipment). It's for this same reason that I will not add spells like Mage Armor to the list, since Mage Armor basically gives the subject an armor score, as opposed to an enhancement bonus to existing armor.

Affecting the subject vs. affecting the object is essentially the only difference between Bless and Magic Weapon, which makes it another point of distinction. (Magic Fang, which set the precedent that Magic Weapon is allowed on, blurs this line, but it's important to note that Magic Fang gives an enhancement bonus to a natural weapon; it does not grant the user attacks with a natural weapon, nor does it make a subject proficient in a natural weapon if they are not already.)

Basically, the ability enhancers provide an effect that your character did not have before (an enhancement bonus to an existing score), and affect the player, not a particular item; thus, they fall solidly under the criteria of things such as Bless and Ectoplasmic Feedback. The ability enhancers are actually precisely the precedent that I was trying to avoid, and they are the reason I ended up taking Girallon's Blessing off the Permanency list (as it provides you access to natural attacks you are not assumed to have prior to its casting).

Permanent True Strike is never balanced. It has a standard action casting time and a one-use duration for a reason: the poor action economy and limited payoff are what deter spamming of this ability during every combat. If you really want those types of spell uses in your game, Persistent True Strike is a seventh-level spell, and Persistent Owl's Wisdom (and variants) are eighth-level spells, assuming no metamagic mitigators (such as Metamagic School Focus, Arcane Thesis, Incantatrix's Easy Metamagic ability, Divine Metamagic, or anything else of the sort), and are entirely within the scope of the rules to use. It's worth noting that Persistent True Strike is a useless six-level jump, however, as it will always only affect "your next single attack roll", and Persistent animal ability enhancers would come at level 15, when you're assumed to have access to +6 items that offer enhancement bonuses (which don't stack), making it only ever useful for secondary (and tertiary) enhancements.

Quote:

The next suggestion I have is, Iron Body, the protection from X series, and maybe prying eyes, and the bigby's series.

Iron Body provides a qualitative difference (many, in fact). So do the Protection from X spells.

Prying Eyes is not broken from a game balance perspective, but could not be Permanencied because of a number of inherent contradictions within the mechanics of Prying Eyes that make it incompatible (the proximity rule, which it shares with Floating Disk, is one; the fact that the eyes are destructible, which it shares with Spectral Hand; and the fact that the eyes are single-use, which it shares with True Strike, and disappear after relaying information). Note that the first two issues individually haven't stopped a spell from being made Permanent as per this list (and the first never stopped Dancing Lights from appearing on the core list); the third, however, is a deal-breaker, as you're basically making a single-use item Permanent... Until discharged.

Arcane Eye has a considerably better shot at being made Permanent, since it is not affected by any of the above problems, but see below.

The only issue I have with Hand and Fist spells being made permanent is that there is no limit to the number of Hands you could theoretically Permanency. If you wanted, you could create an arbitrarily high number of Hands with insidious consequences.

As a general rule, the precedent for spells with stacking effects, and spells with no explicitly worded limit on quantity, can be inferred from this post, made earlier in the thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol

Choking Cobwebs has some fairly insidious implications if you choose to create large quantities of Permanent Choking Cobwebs (like doubling them up for Con damage to death).

EDIT: That said, the Hand and Fist spells may follow the precedent set by Animate Objects. I'll look into it.

Quote:

I'm not exactly sure the formula that is used for this spell.

I haven't written a comprehensive criteria for Permanency, and since Wizards never wrote one, it can be assumed that no such list exists; however, there are a few criteria that I've established through this list that one can safely use to rule out spells that are incompatible with the list:

Spells that affect yourself, another creature, an object, or an area
MUST: Contain wording that explicitly prevents the spell from stacking with itself, or stacking with other, related spells, indefinitely. If multiple instances are allowed, there must be an explicitly worded limit, and multiple instances of identical effects can't stack. (Examples for creatures: Create Magic Tattoo, Enlarge/Reduce Person; Examples for objects: Keen Edge, Holy Sword, Fire Trap; Examples of violators: Choking Cobwebs' Constitution damage)
MUST NOT: Provide untyped bonuses or penalties of any kind. These always stack, and always interact with themselves.
MUST NOT: Have a limited number of uses or charges. This includes single-use spells (such as True Strike), as well as spells that discharge after fulfilling a certain condition (such as Prying Eyes discharging after returning to your hand, or Protection from Energy discharging after preventing a fixed amount of damage).
MUST NOT: Have a duration of Instantaneous. You cannot Permanency a spell without a duration; either its effect occurs for a single instant before dissipating (see most blasting spells) or has a permanent effect which is not kept permanent by magic (certain Conjuration [Creation] spells fall under this category).
MUST: Have a fixed (and rather) limited duration, if the spell has a negative effect at all. By extension, the spell MUST NOT have a negative effect that lasts "for the duration of the spell", or any similar wording; the duration of the effect that it provides must be independent of the spell's duration. (Examples: Karmic Aura, Stinking Cloud)

Spells that affect yourself or another creature
SHOULD NOT: Provide a qualitative difference in the creature. This includes, but is not limited to: attacks that the creature is not assumed to already have access to (such as a natural attack not normally granted to a creature, such as a bite, slam, claw, talon, or tail attack); a movement mode that the creature is not assumed to have access to (such as a flight, swim, or burrow speed); a bonus that the creature is not assumed to already have access to (such as an enhancement bonus to an ability score, insight bonus to attack rolls, armor bonus to Armor Class, or competence bonus to a skill); or a property or ability of any other kind that the creature is not assumed to have access to (such as Flaming Burst and related properties, any spell-like abilities, any energy resistance or immunity, any spell resistance or immunity, any damage resistance, or any immunity to adverse effects). Common exceptions to this rule include detection spells (such as Arcane Sight, Detect Aberration and Detect Good/Evil/Chaos/Law, to self only), minor enhancement bonuses to existing qualities of the character (such as Magic Fang to existing natural attacks, and Resistance to existing saves) and size bonuses (Enlarge/Reduce Person). Subversions of this rule (which were not included in the core criteria, but are included in this new criteria) are Sharptooth and Jagged Tooth on existing natural attacks (which does not stack with itself, or any iteration thereof; this follows the precedent set by Magic Fang), means of subverting certain detections (such as Undetectable Alignment and Dead End), means of basic survival in harsh environments (such as Air Breathing, Water Breathing and Resist Planar Effects), enhancements and properties that affect equipment (provided that they do not stack with any other enhancements and properties that provide related or identical effects), and Create Magic Tattoo (the one direct violation of this rule for which there is no precedent; incidentally, it's also one that I'm tempted to take down, for this reason).
SHOULD NOT: Be a spell that a Sorcerer or Wizard cannot cast, especially if it is a spell with "Range: Personal". This has been subverted on occasion, however (Examples: Tojanida Sight, Greenfire).

I don't have comprehensive criteria for spells that should or should not be Permanencied, but this is a good place to start. I'll probably add more as they occur to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veklim

You might wanna state that in your initial thread.

I thought I did.

I'll add it, thanks.

Quote:

Nice work otherwise, will ping you if I find anything not here already. Personally been houseruling on the spot for them for years, permanency was never supported enough to begin with, but the fact that they failed to mention it retrospectively in further supplements (i.e. This spell may be affected by the spell Permanency) leads me to wonder if it was a spell deliberately gossed over?

Dracomortis and I have actually found a select few spells that actually do have Permanency written into their writing. I've only seen two splatbooks that have explicitly mentioned Permanency: Races of the Dragon and Sandstorm. Dracomortis pointed out spells in both lists, and I found another spell or two in Sandstorm that is eligible for Permanency as-written. There is no consistent patter for me that suggests that the spell was deliberately glossed over or simply forgotten, which leads me to think that there are maybe one or two people at Wizards of the Coast that ever cared about Permanency, and the rest never thought about spell interactions during the creation process.

tuggyne · 12-30-2011, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonely Tylenol

Spells that affect yourself or another creature
SHOULD NOT: Provide a qualitative difference in the creature. This includes, but is not limited to: attacks that the creature is not assumed to already have access to (such as a natural attack not normally granted to a creature, such as a bite, slam, claw, talon, or tail attack); a movement mode that the creature is not assumed to have access to (such as a flight, swim, or burrow speed); a bonus that the creature is not assumed to already have access to (such as an enhancement bonus to an ability score, insight bonus to attack rolls, armor bonus to Armor Class, or competence bonus to a skill); or a property or ability of any other kind that the creature is not assumed to have access to (such as Flaming Burst and related properties, any spell-like abilities, any energy resistance or immunity, any spell resistance or immunity, any damage resistance, or any immunity to adverse effects). Common exceptions to this rule include detection spells (such as Arcane Sight, Detect Aberration and Detect Good/Evil/Chaos/Law, to self only), minor enhancement bonuses to existing qualities of the character (such as Magic Fang to existing natural attacks, and Resistance to existing saves) and size bonuses (Enlarge/Reduce Person).

The bolded portion is a little unclear: are those examples of acceptable bonuses, or unacceptable? I would have assumed the former except that the other examples are all fairly clearly unacceptable. A bit of rewording might be good just in case.

Lonely Tylenol · 12-31-2011, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuggyne

The bolded portion is a little unclear: are those examples of acceptable bonuses, or unacceptable? I would have assumed the former except that the other examples are all fairly clearly unacceptable. A bit of rewording might be good just in case.

They are listed as examples of unacceptable bonuses, and for a reason. An armor bonus to an existing set of armor (as the spell Magic Vestments) is quantitative and applied to equipment, which is acceptable; an armor bonus being given to a creature which does not already have one (as the spell Mage Armor) is qualitative (unarmored ~> armored) and applies the bonus directly to the player, which is unacceptable.

The only spell I have permitted that explicitly breaks this rule is Create Magic Tattoo, which sets a dangerous precedent, and may be taken off the list as-is.

Zeta Kai · 12-31-2011, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuggyne

The bolded portion is a little unclear: are those examples of acceptable bonuses, or unacceptable? I would have assumed the former except that the other examples are all fairly clearly unacceptable. A bit of rewording might be good just in case.

The fact that those are under the SHOULD NOT heading should make it clear that they are unacceptable.