The magical nature of the swords is never really mentioned in how much more they can cut. Though taking an example when the Soul Reapers had their zampukto removed their swords still had the same effects on their opponents. Also the damage done to the human companions of Ichigo aren't any worse then the damage Ichigo takes.
The arc where they had their Soul Reapers removed were a filler arc, its generaly not consideret cannon.
Also, i would disagree with the last part, since his human companions generaly gets taken out left and right.
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I can walk faster then a twelve year old child. This is partially because I'm taller then the child and my stride is much longer. Yes I do weigh more and yet this doesn't change the reality that I'm still faster! Do you want some more examples from 40K that don't make sense? A ratling who is about the size of a midget can go the same speed as a wraithlord, a tireless giant dreadnaught.
And yes you can walk faster than a child, thats because you are closer to the ideal biped size, but at the same time would you expect to be able to outrun a hare? it is after all only about 1/10 of your size.
As for the Wraithlord not being very fast, its a siege weapon, its not build for speed, its build for toughness.
Also, being tireless doesnt help you run faster, only longer.
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Also you are incorrect. Looking at the rules the Titans cannot move faster then 6 inches, unless they have a special rule like the Scout Titan. As for the size I am kinda going by memory but I believe the Imperiator titan has been compared to small mountains in size.
And yes this is all due to balance. Who would want to play imperial guard if they could only move and inch or two a turn?
Fine, i looked at the Eldar titans, and though their movement rules were general to all titans.
Still, they are build for siege warfare not speed, so though they might move a bit faster than a man, then they are not faster than a bike, or they would have gotten their movement mode.
And i cant see why imperial guard should suddenly only be able to move a couple of inches per turn.
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Well lets see, there were the early fights against Ichigo. Pretty much any fight against Chad. Fights against grounded Hollows. Also during the Bount arc when the captains were hunting the Bounts they were running around on the ground, not flying through the air. The point is that the Soul Reapers and Ichigo in paticular do not stay flying in the air and attacking with ranged attacks.
And none of these examples manage to cover all the criteria of someone who both needet the advantage, and also possesed a suficiently powerfull ranget attack.
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I looked up some of the Swarmlord's abilities that we haven't really gone over.
1. The Psyker spells:
1.a) A spell to cause fear. Not really useful
b) a spell to tear at people's souls, healing the Swarmlord. A very useful ranged spell that only extermly powerful defences would work against (ie invulnerable saves)
c) a spell to cause pain. Useful and ranged. This spell is primarily used to decrease the skills of an opponent making them easier to hit and reducing accuracy. Again no defence against it.
d) a spell that basically creates a psycic yell, causing insanity. Sorta useful. But I'm pretty sure the Soul Reapers can resist the attack.
2. The Bonesabers: Kill anything they wound instantly even being able to rip through powerful defences.
3. Its raw skill. This is a being that is so skilled in combat it actually gets an invulnerable save.
4. Its strength. Its described as shatter the material armored bunkers are made of as easily as glass
Actualy, i just ignored these because most of them wouldnt matter.
1.b) is actualy a very weak power, while it does ignore conventional armor, then its attacking power is very low, making it something that can be used to heal up from a group of puny guardsmen, while at the same time being ignored by tougher opponents.
1.c) would again be usefull, but it only reduce the opponents accuracy, and that would not matter to much when you either throw sufficiently large blasts after it like Ichigo, or is a master of Kido, who can use spell that automaticaly hit.
Also, you can only affect one target at the time with this power.
2. doesnt kill targets with the eternal warrior special rule, something that both Ichigo and Aizen might very well qualify for.
3. its only in close combat that i get that save, it doesnt work against ranget attacks.
4. The last part is proberly what they call hyperbole, while it is monstrously strong, then its still not that strong, being as i recall only S6, where on the other hand the previously mentioned Wraithlord has S10.
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Also looked at Creed's weaponry. He doesn't have a power sword so thats a moot point. He instead duel wields upgraded (hotshot) las-pistols whose shots are much more powerful then a regular lasgun.
They are still not powerfull enough to make a difference, Hotshot las-pistols makes small holes in people and their regular armor, while in Bleach they deal out attacks that crush buildings.
Another problem with the pistols are the awfull range, if you can hit someone with it, then they are allmost close enough to chop you with their sword.
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Also with regards to the laser weaponry, I'm sure it wouldn't be a one hit killing without hitting a vital spot, but in terms of concentration, it's probably beyond bleach. This is the grim darkness of the far future after all, and the lasguns are apparently really, really powerful. (it's because they're usually used on monstrous opponents that they seem weak). Creed probably has better than lasguns anyway (a hell pistol?) and while it may not destroy buildings, it will certainly easily destroy whatever part of a building it hits.
Actualy, as such things go the laser pistol is puny, the reason for why its so common is that its a simple weapon thats easy to produce, easy to maintain, and easy to recharge (in a emergency, throw the ammo packs into a bonfire overnight), when you have to arm the countless members of the imperial guard, then these are the qualities you look for.
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Anyways I can't see how Bleach team could win. The only thing they seem to have going for them is a slight speed advantage over distances and more powerful ranged attacks then Creed's pistols/grenades. On the other hand they also have a habit of fighting up close. As in they always fight at very short range of a couple of meters. A dozen at the most. Even if the fight is kept at range, Creed can pepper them with shots while the Swarmlord protects him and attacks them with its powers from afar tearing at mind and soul.
On the other hand, i cant see how 40k could win, Bleach have a wastly superior advantage in mobility, being both able to move so fast the eye cant follow, and being able to walk on air, meaning they would be able to dictate the teams of the engagement.
And they have a HUGE advantage in ranget attack power, Creeds range is nonexistant, and its not even sure that his pistols would be able to harm Aizen, or hit Ichigo (not like the Swarmlord would be able to protect him anyway, he would most likely die from Ichigo's trademark opening attack).
And While the swarmlord is a powerfull psyker, then the only power it knows who might make a difference at range is more or less useless against tough opponents, short range, and likely to be dodge by Ichigo and Aizen (dodge does count as a invulnerable save, see DE), and regenerated by Aizen.
In short, the way you get rid of the Swarmlord in 40k is to stay at range and blast it appart, something that the Bleach crew is perfectly suited for.
The way you get rid of Creed is to ignore him, unless he brough an army of Imperial guardsmen with him, and in this case he didnt.
edit, that were an unfair resolution, i didnt see the tie because i were busy typing up a reply to the last part of the arguement.
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Last edited by lord_khaine : 01-08-2012 at 05:50 AM.
1 Creed & Swarmlord (Warhammer 40k) vs 22 Samus & Dark Samus (Metroid)
14 Jack Rakan & Evangeline A.K McDowell (Mahou Sensei Negima) vs 2 Martian Manhunter & Doomsday (DC Universe)
Votes due 9am on 15th January. Please vote and debate.
Also after this Royale is over, Battle Royale will be taking a break. A very long break. It might never come back (hopefully not though). Sometime in feburary I will use this thread to show everyone "the purge" (as in the 32 universes which will be cut out and the 32 left in). Do PM me if you can think of future twists for every odd numbered Battle Royale (that was going to be a theme). Also PM me if you think I'm being too slow and want to replace me as master of Battle Royale.
Have fun!
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We're all in the Monster Manual somewhere. My entry is between Howler and Hydra.
1 Creed & Swarmlord (Warhammer 40k) vs 22 Samus & Dark Samus (Metroid)
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14 Jack Rakan & Evangeline A.K McDowell (Mahou Sensei Negima) vs 2 Martian Manhunter & Doomsday (DC Universe)
Jack can do this:
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Originally Posted by Armationem: Incendium Gehennae
Sim Fabricatus Ab Incendio
獄炎煉我 gokuen renga
Supplement: Incendium Gehennae
Tempered by Hellfire. By absorbing a flame and darkness spell, the mage gains high endurance and heat resistance, as well as a spiritual ability to steal mana from other living beings. The mages movements can release black flames.
I'd say that takes care of Manhunter.
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Metroid
Kites the 40k faction. Unlike with Bleach, kiting people is basically what Samus spends her entire career doing.
Swarmlord can lash out with his psychic powers. So he has some chance of winning, but I think it's a slim one.
Really though, neither of these teams can beat either of the ones on the other side of the match up. So this is a duel to come second.
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I'd say that takes care of Manhunter.
Potentially.
The text of that implies that it is a response to somebody else casting a flame and darkness spell so maybe he can't cast it? If he can though it does seem the exact sort of thing that can down J'onn.
Although that leaves Doomsday. How in the world are they going to deal with him? Doomsday has been through the Omega Beam, black holes, suns and the end of the universe and come out unscathed. What can Mahou do to stack up to that? You basically need to be a planet cracker to measure up physically. And none of the cheap tricks are going to work due to Doomsdays reflexive adaptation.
New combats
1 Creed & Swarmlord (Warhammer 40k) vs 22 Samus & Dark Samus (Metroid)
A dude specialized in leading armies, and a melee specialist that's usually also backed up by armies, none with long range abilities, against professional bounty hunters brimming with artillery that solo planets?
Honestly it's a easy victory for Metroid. Creed with 22 Swarmlords against one Samus & Dark Samus may have had a chance. As it is the Swarmlord and Creed both get shot to bloody chunks before they can do much.
Extra irony for the fact in TT missile spam are the Swarmorld's bane.
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Originally Posted by Sunken Valley
14 Jack Rakan & Evangeline A.K McDowell (Mahou Sensei Negima) vs 2 Martian Manhunter & Doomsday (DC Universe)
Now this isn't much of a curbmstop as both Martian Manhunter and Doomsday are superman level. But not silver age superman. So 14 Jack Rakans backed up by Evangeline can easily overwhelm them. Heck Jack is renowed for simply refusing to stay dead. Negima victory! May had been an interesting match if it was 2x2.
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Originally Posted by Selrahc
Although that leaves Doomsday. How in the world are they going to deal with him? Doomsday has been through the Omega Beam, black holes, suns and the end of the universe and come out unscathed. What can Mahou do to stack up to that? You basically need to be a planet cracker to measure up physically. And none of the cheap tricks are going to work due to Doomsdays reflexive adaptation.
Doomsday has let age got the best of him. As of the most recent comics, even batman can knock out the air out of him with his human strenght. Jack Ragan meanwhile punches battleships. And there's 14 of them.
Last edited by deuterio12 : 01-08-2012 at 02:06 PM.
Doomsday has let age got the best of him. As of the most recent comics, even batman can knock out the air out of him with his human strenght. Jack Ragan meanwhile punches battleships. And there's 14 of them.
But we're taking characters at their strongest state, not their most recent.
But we're taking characters at their strongest state, not their most recent.
Fair enough. Here's your Jack Planet cracker. Ok, tecnically it's Negi using it, but just because he used some cheesy mirror-move to throw Jack's attack back at him.
And then there's the detail that even being impaled only slows him down, while Doomsday drops if you manage to get a clean wound on him (like when he fought Apocalypse).
Last edited by deuterio12 : 01-08-2012 at 02:18 PM.
1 Creed & Swarmlord (Warhammer 40k) vs 22 Samus & Dark Samus (Metroid) --
It's all amount the guns, now. And the bombs. The guns and the bombs. Oh, and the power armour. And missles. OK, it's all about the guns, various explosives, armour... Metroid wins, OK?
14 Jack Rakan & Evangeline A.K McDowell (Mahou Sensei Negima) vs 2 Martian Manhunter & Doomsday (DC Universe) -- Provisional vote. I'm not clear on what Team Negima can really do when the chips are down. Evangeline seems to specialize in ice magic; both the Manhunter and Doomsday should be able to shrug that off. E. is outclasses in hand-to-hand (I think), and I'm not sure Jack's strength can match even J'onzz's. Doomsday would likely stomp him in melee.
So, what kind of special attacks can Team Negima pull of besides ice?
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Deuterio, those numbers are a coding system used to determine who fights who based on their performance in round 1 of the tournament. They do not decide combatant numbers. All fights are 2 on 2. Nobody gets any allies..
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We're all in the Monster Manual somewhere. My entry is between Howler and Hydra.
Not necessarily. Fire is the Martian Manhunter's main weakness, but there's a world of difference between being vunerable to something and automatically losing to it. Bullets can hurt Batman, but that doesn't mean a mook with a gun takes him out.
As far as I can tell, Evangeline uses ice, not fire. The MM would likely stick to fighting her, and let Doomsday deal with Mr. Firefists. Or he could use a mental attack.
__________________
Thanks to lindorm for the cat avatar!
Deuterio, those numbers are a coding system used to determine who fights who based on their performance in round 1 of the tournament. They do not decide combatant numbers. All fights are 2 on 2. Nobody gets any allies..
Sorry about that confusion. My previous votes still stand tough since when the chips come down to it Jack's speciality is winning against impossible odds and keep coming back from the dead.
And again Metroid team wins by missile spam from a close distance. Even if Creed manages to infiltrate the Swarmlord in close, Samus turns into turbo ball for making some quick distance, while Dark Samus can simply teleport out.
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Originally Posted by zingbat
Not necessarily. Fire is the Martian Manhunter's main weakness, but there's a world of difference between being vunerable to something and automatically losing to it. Bullets can hurt Batman, but that doesn't mean a mook with a gun takes him out.
Actualy it's been stablished that Batman's contigency plan against MM is simply "KILL IT WITH FIRE", be it advanced nanobots that constantly burn the atmosphere around him or plain flamethrowers.
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Originally Posted by zingbat
As far as I can tell, Evangeline uses ice, not fire. The MM would likely stick to fighting her, and let Doomsday deal with Mr. Firefists. Or he could use a mental attack.
Well, Evangeline can teleport trough shadows and isn't exactly an adept of fair fighting so I can perfectly see her switch out. Plus being a vampire may make her immune to mental attacks. Jack's willpower is strong enough to reverse death!
Last edited by deuterio12 : 01-08-2012 at 04:09 PM.
1 Creed & Swarmlord (Warhammer 40k) vs 22 Samus & Dark Samus (Metroid) --
It's all amount the guns, now. And the bombs. The guns and the bombs. Oh, and the power armour. And missles. OK, it's all about the guns, various explosives, armour... Metroid wins, OK?
14 Jack Rakan & Evangeline A.K McDowell (Mahou Sensei Negima) vs 2 Martian Manhunter & Doomsday (DC Universe) -- Provisional vote. I'm not clear on what Team Negima can really do when the chips are down. Evangeline seems to specialize in ice magic; both the Manhunter and Doomsday should be able to shrug that off. E. is outclasses in hand-to-hand (I think), and I'm not sure Jack's strength can match even J'onzz's. Doomsday would likely stomp him in melee.
So, what kind of special attacks can Team Negima pull of besides ice?
But Creed can sneak baneblades into the fight.
That's like, his thing. XD
And then Swarmlord routinely eats things with power armor, vortex grenades, and rapid fire RPG's with armor piercing tips.
Ultimately it comes down to creed in his tank v.s. dark samus in my opinion, since Samus has no real defense against psychic attacks from Swarmlord (as underneath the armor, she is less than even a space marine physically, the chozo armor gives her skill, but the most skilled human is still less than your average space marine, let alone veterans.), though I imagine Dark Samus as some kind of weird phazon entity would prevent her from even having a soul or mind to steal. There's also the questionability of her stability now that she has been infused with metroid DNA to begin with, and Swarmlord's just the type to rip her apart mentally while she tries to fend him off.
But she seemed pretty vulnerable to super missiles (which had a fairly small blast radius (comparitively to a Lemann Russ Battle Tank.) from what I can remember of Echos..) in even the second and third fights so I think the Baneblade could take enough damage (since pillars of ancient stone were able to absorb her attacks, a baneblade could certainly as well. Though I am unfamiliar with what it takes to stop Phazon radiation from killing a person.) to get in a shot from it's Volcano Cannon (assuming it's a storm sword variant.), or any of it's smaller weapons batteries and through sheer stupid tenacity, and the tendency to bring in ridiculous amounts of fire power. Ultimately win the day.
Like already said it's a joke from tg\. He can help others infiltrate, but doesn't get free tanks.
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Originally Posted by Fan
And then Swarmlord routinely eats things with power armor, vortex grenades, and rapid fire RPG's with armor piercing tips.
I dare you to find a source for that. Standard krak missiles are more than enough to pierce the swarmlord's armor, and he only even gets an invulnerable save in close combat thanks to his parryng skillz. Even in the fluff it says nothing on the Swarmlord being exceptionally durable when compared to your average Hive Tyrant.
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Originally Posted by Fan
Ultimately it comes down to creed in his tank v.s. dark samus in my opinion, since Samus has no real defense against psychic attacks from Swarmlord (as underneath the armor, she is less than even a space marine physically, the chozo armor gives her skill, but the most skilled human is still less than your average space marine, let alone veterans.),
Congratulations, you just showed you know even less of Metroid than 40K.
First, Samus did receive genetic augments of her own when she was taken by the Chozo, otherwise woudln't survive on their planet.
Second, Cain is a completely normal human from 40K, that actualy strives to stay away from combat as much as possible, and he easily outskills chaos marines. Now Samus faces power armored monsters and eldritch horrors as her daily job. Think about how much skill that can grant if being a human watching for the artillery miles away from any danger allows you to outskill a SM.
1 Creed & Swarmlord (Warhammer 40k) vs 22 Samus & Dark Samus (Metroid)
Ok, I'm sure we can all agree that Creed will have little bearing on this. From what little I could pick up from the internets on the swarmlord, it appears to slightly trump the names imperium hero characters in fluff (e.g. 'almost killed' marneus calgar). It's obviously durable on the same sort of scale as metroid bosses (unless it has some weird psychic defenses of which I am unaware), but unlike them, it's not retarded. Samus will *not* be able to beat it by repeating a simple pattern over and over, it's a probably Creed-level tactical genius. It has an extremely strong four-limbed melee attack, and knows how to use it (four bone sabres capable of "easily slicing adamantium" according to lexicanum). It's described as extremely fast in its swordsmanship.
And etc etc. I can't be bothered to write more on the subject just this second.
If we're going by how "smart" metroid bosses are, Samus has faced her fair share of space pirate commandos, rival bounty hunters (including a shapechanger specialized in infiltration and manipulation) and highly advanced military AIs. It's simply an in-game limitation that they're limited to patterns.
Of course, no matter how much of a tactical genius the swarmlord is or how fast he swings his sabers, when whitout an actual swarm to lord around, neither will help him the basic limitation of geting close enough to either Samus as they kite it.
Last edited by deuterio12 : 01-08-2012 at 05:10 PM.
Potentially.
The text of that implies that it is a response to somebody else casting a flame and darkness spell so maybe he can't cast it? If he can though it does seem the exact sort of thing that can down J'onn.
Nah, he has a technique where you absorb your own spells to take on their attributes. Eva is better with it, but we've only seen each of them use it with one spell.
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Originally Posted by deuterio12
Jack's willpower is strong enough to reverse death!
More than that, it's strong enough to reverse not existing.
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Yes, but samus has always had superior equipment and stuff to her smarter enemies. When she decks huge creatures all the time, it's not just that she's that good (though she is), it's also because they're kinda stupid and have absolutely disgusting fighting technique. A real fighter like the swarmlord wouldn't just constantly lunge in melee and then take about 5 seconds to figure out that samus dodged. Remember fighting meta ridley in metroid prime? Just how much of a chance do you think you would have stood if he'd just kept slashing at you and driven you into a corner rather than used his idiot lunge attack?
Also, the swarmlord is an ~8m biped. It's probably pretty fast and has a psychic ranged attack.
1 Creed & Swarmlord (Warhammer 40k) vs 22 Samus & Dark Samus (Metroid)
Yet again 40k comes up against a team that could kite it to the end of days, but it cant continue being more lucky than it deserves.
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14 Jack Rakan & Evangeline A.K McDowell (Mahou Sensei Negima) vs 2 Martian Manhunter & Doomsday (DC Universe)
It might be a tough mach, but in the end i cant see how the MSN team can win this one, Johns at his strongest were only slightly under silver age superman in raw power, and his power setup are just to versetile, something that would make John one of the few people strong enough to defeat Jack in a physical mach.
And then we have Doomsday....
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Jack can do this:
Im actualy pretty sure thats a style of magic that Jack doesnt use, i dont think he at any time have produced any sort of elemental attack.
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Sorry about that confusion. My previous votes still stand tough since when the chips come down to it Jack's speciality is winning against impossible odds and keep coming back from the dead.
But even dying once is enough for him to lose, doesnt matter if he comes back later on
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Actualy it's been stablished that Batman's contigency plan against MM is simply "KILL IT WITH FIRE", be it advanced nanobots that constantly burn the atmosphere around him or plain flamethrowers.
Thats mostly because of a combination of it being the only option, and bad writing, considering Johns ability to move at close to light speed would make it impossible for a human to get even close to him with a flamethrower, and his Phase ability should make it easy getting rid of the nanobots.
Honestly, Batmans contingency plans were mostly retardet, and only worked because of bad writing, for gods sake, some of the plans consistet of hypnotising GL while he were asleep, or hitting the Flash with a projectile weapon
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Also, the swarmlord is an ~8m biped. It's probably pretty fast and has a psychic ranged attack.
Except that the Swarmlord is actualy pretty slow, and its psychic attack has less than ˝ the range of its biggest weakness, missiles.
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Last edited by lord_khaine : 01-08-2012 at 05:31 PM.
Nah, he has a technique where you absorb your own spells to take on their attributes. Eva is better with it, but we've only seen each of them use it with one spell.
So can you speak to his character? My only exposure to the character is through searching his powers. How does he fight? All guns blazing? Searching for weaknesses? Cool and professional?
Like for the DC guys, Doomsday is an undisciplined brute who will run in and try and smash things. J'onn is a cool hand, and a rather understated fighter for his power level. He'll hang back and analyse if possible.
The other thing is... if that's not a thing Jack does as a common attack, how likely is he to use it here? Do fighters come in knowing the weaknesses of their foes?
So can you speak to his character? My only exposure to the character is through searching his powers. How does he fight? All guns blazing? Searching for weaknesses? Cool and professional?
The other thing is... if that's not a thing Jack does as a common attack, how likely is he to use it here? Do fighters come in knowing the weaknesses of their foes?
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