My Little Pony XXXV: The Thread Everypony Should Know

[Forum Explorer]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Ohhh-hhh, you haven't heard the half of it. I'm an English major. Every artist is seeking deeper meaning. Even made-up poets who's secret authors came out and admitted they were trolling poetry critics get treated with deathly seriousness about the deeper meaning that secretly inspired their actions. And there's no way to produce an 'inferior' work because everything has a secret meaning.

Ok now I'm curious. How would they interpret a Gorn story? Or an RP that someone compiled and presented as a story?

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

Ok now I'm curious. How would they interpret a Gorn story? Or an RP that someone compiled and presented as a story?

Probably by narrowing it down to either sex or death. Everything's about sex or death.

[Kindablue]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Again, my point is that there is nothing there other than what the viewer brings to the table himself. You can read into it, as you can read into anything. The human mind can find patterns, consistencies and connections even in madness. By claiming credit for observer's ability to make judgements and interpretations, the artist has removed himself from the cycle. He has not inspired thought, he has waited for others to tell him what he made them think.

Again, I understand your point. I don't care about it because the skillful execution of an idea isn't what I look for in a good piece of art. I look for an instantaneous visceral reaction. I want to be struck blind by the way two colors blend together in a painting; I want a line of poetry to stop my mind from working for minutes on end; and if an artist can get that from me by going down to Home Depot and buying $30 worth of paint and mindlessly rolling it on some canvas and sticking it in a dimly lit room, who am I to call him a hack?

Originally Posted by Thanqol

If a stranger told me to be quiet for four minutes while he did nothing I'd rightly think he was a tosser. A famous person doing the same thing isn't any less of a tosser; the toss is equidistant. If I found this song on my iTunes playlist with no other context I'd delete it as a corrupt file. The artist is dead, and I find his work displeasing.

Spoiler

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Kindablue

Again, I understand your point. I don't care about it because the skillful execution of an idea isn't what I look for in a good piece of art. I look for an instantaneous visceral reaction. I want to be struck blind by the way two colors blend together in a painting; I want a line of poetry to stop my mind from working for minutes on end; and if an artist can get that from me by going down to Home Depot and buying $30 worth of paint and mindlessly rolling it on some canvas and sticking it in a dimly lit room, who am I to call him a hack?

And I concur entirely; you have said the words eloquently and well.

Spoiler

Why do I consider my actual knowledge of history to be less accurate than the Hark comics? And with such regularity and totality?


In unrelated, I shouted myself hoarse tonight in my Rogue Trader tabletop during a villain speech. I even used Trollestia's "Do you like bananas?" speech. It was a thing of beauty.

[Draconi Redfir]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

This, for example, demonstrates technical skill and hard work.

That is awsome.

[Aotrs Commander]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

This, for example, demonstrates technical skill and hard work.

Yeah, okay, that was quite impressive (quite liked the music too, I like a bit of J-Pop atimes (or at least something that sounds vaguley like it to my peasent ear...)



On art - as in philosphy - I am a terrible, terrible peasant, because I have an engineer's mindset and thus no patience for all the pretentious mumbo-jumbo that has a tendancy to surround such things. (And in the latter case, being a space-Lich necromancer, all the big questions become somewhat moot, when people say "who knows what happens after death" and you can go "I do" and then give them a highly detailed explanation, with coloured diagrams and a field trip¹).

So my criteron for art is:

A) Does it look like anything? A ii) If not, is it something that could not have been accidently created by asking a sucessive series of small children to "draw [x]" or by releasing animals covered in paint (e.g. cats and hamsters, lions and wildebeest) into a canvas surface?

B) Is it better than what I could do? (This is not hard, any non-learner claiming to make "Art" (as opposed to just art) should be at a bare minimum of "being better at it that Bleakbane" (unless it actually involves something I'm good at, e.g. starships) or you REALLY aren't trying.)

c) Does it have any clever or novel thought behind it? (I mean "clever" from as in "creates some kind of interesting visual (etc) effect" or something, not "is supposed to be representative of Man's Repressed Need to Hit Pretentious Gits in the Face With a Sledgehammer"

D) Does it have any historical context that gives it some value as a piece of history?

and most importantly:

E) Does it have starships/explosions/lasers/ponies/ninja/pokemon in it?

If it answers "no" to all of the above, it may or not be art, but importantly, I don't care.

If it manages "yes" to all of E at once, it also probably doesn't matter, because my skull probably will have asploded.

To sum up, for me, I think the reponse best put to the question asked "but it it Art?" is "I don't care, but I have a rocket launcher, prepare to be spiffilicated."




¹Lord Death Despoil has personally instructed me from ever doing that again, on account of even he thought the resultant psychological trauma caused by that one guy actually knowing what his ultimate fate after death would be was needlessly excessive. The guy totally had it coming, though, he dissed my necromancy.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander

So my criteron for art is:

It's good to have somepony around to put the great abstract debates of our time in their proper context. Their proper, pony-starship-explosion filled context.

[otakuryoga]

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander

and most importantly:

E) Does it have starships/explosions/lasers/ponies/ninja/pokemon in it?

If it answers "no" to all of the above, it may or not be art, but importantly, I don't care.

If it manages "yes" to all of E at once, it also probably doesn't matter, because my skull probably will have asploded.

i don't know about the rest of you....but this sounds like a challenge to the resident thread artists

[Thanqol]

Mare In The Mirror Review Part 1: The Partonening.

Disclaimer: Anything I do not draw direct attention to I felt worked. I mark success or failure based on how often I remember to be an editor.

Spoiler

You use "lust" perhaps once too often in the intro. It's a very minor thing, but I think it causes some slight dissonance - switch one use out for something else.

"It's OK, you're safe... it was only a dream."

I personally think "Okay" sounds much more human and warm than the cold, robotic "OK". Personal preference though.

*Accidentally remembered the Royal Canterlot Voice, temporarily ruining/improving this scene. Takes a moment to recover before moving on*

Trixie sighed and turned a little, opening her eyes to glance at some point in the distance past the collection of favorite socks and an old plush Celestia with more patch than pony, in fact barely recognizable as such.

Kind of a misplaced sentence, in the middle of the dialogue and other action, and therefore is too recognisable as a shoutout. Make this a touch more subtle.

"I failed Twilight, maybe I could have done something. Instead I waited. Too long did I wait.

"Too long did I wait"? That doesn't fit at all.


Hm, in general this scene feels a little... odd. The dialogue and actions together aren't quite working for me. It's a little too expositional. A little too downer, long pauses and self blame. There's not much dynamic between two depressed ponies.

And then there's that curious moment at the end where Luna switches gears to joking, and somehow that feels like a more natural and realistic moment than the entire rest of the conversation. It's like I'd almost prefer to be seeing that story, where Luna maintains a happy front so she doesn't have to think too hard. Curious. Anyway, continuing.


The next scene sort of compounds this curious feeling. There is a dynamic there, between Celestia and Luna, but I'm not quite sure what it is. I'm not quite sure what their relationship is. There's a lot of stages in that brief passage; stiff exchange of information, joking, comfortable understanding, character analysis, rebelliousness, paternal concern, defiance, hurtful words, rage, sorrow, love. Every line there's a different mood. As such, I can't visualise the conversation; it slips out of my hooves and into a half-dozen different forms. Scratch my earlier statement, I think that this story would be stronger if you'd taken the time to really work out the dynamic each set of key characters possessed.

Most stories succeed or fail during character creation, you know the mantra.


Part 2:

Cracked mirror scene

This is the point where I became hooked. I'm always happy to be able to put my hoof on the moment where a story absorbs me and my imagination.

The scene which follows, between Celestia and Luna, breaks the flow a bit, alas. Too fast paced, energetic and expositional after that beautiful, terrible, slow moment. And moreover, now I feel like I as a reader know too much. You could have sustained that mystery much longer.

As such, in the next scene, little wordy by Trixie and not enough weight given to the potential Nightmare Moon. I feel like the scene works better if Luna tries to keep that information to herself for whatever reason. There are some powerful lines here, though, like

I want you to promise that you won't speak with Ni... with Twilight, in the mirror. I don't think you can trust her."

But naming something gives you power over it, gives it definitions and limits, and you could pace that reveal out longer.

It was not without some relief that she spotted the marshy fields of Dappleshore, however. She wasn't exactly in good shape yet and it was a long flight from Canterlot to Dappleshore.

Rephrase this. The 'however' at the end is de-emphasised and easy to miss; foreground the exhaustion so the transition jars less.


Otherwise, so far this is looking solid. You have a real knack for atmosphere and menace - and I think the core talent you've exhibited with these stories is restraint. Writing a story like this in the MLPverse is hard, hard, hard, but while I've questioned the dialogue and shipping, I've never questioned that the horror concepts you're using are possible. Even natural.

You don't overexpose, and you keep the monsters in the shadows. You keep an air of mystery and brinksmanship, a feeling that the characters are as touched by madness as that which they seek. And you take each step gently, but inexorably, not rushing things at all. It's not an easy thing to do, and I'm certainly taking notes.

That said, the dialogue and the character dynamics need work. I've recently begun something of a study into partnerships and relationships in media, and have noticed that some of the most powerful moments are the most archetypical. The relationship between Rider and his Master in Fate: Zero is a remarkable thing. Two characters of readily identifiable, and rather standard, archetype - and yet their dynamic is amazing and one of the best parts of the show for me, because it's plain how the two are learning from each other, and what they see in each other, and how they break each other's expectations.

This is something best studied through deliberate observation; picking pairs who naturally work well together and figuring out why. If the dynamic is strong enough, and the characters understand each other well enough, it's possible to communicate huge amounts without dialogue. We can become hypersensitive to changes in the dynamic, and able to infer a lot through a little.

White Collar and Fate: Zero are my two big recommendations on this topic, though Community merits an honourable mention.


THAT ALL SAID, I'm still enjoying this story and looking forwards to continuing my review! Just trying to provide a topic to direct your efforts at

[Sean Mirrsen]

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander

and most importantly:

E) Does it have starships/explosions/lasers/ponies/ninja/pokemon in it?

If it answers "no" to all of the above, it may or not be art, but importantly, I don't care.

If it manages "yes" to all of E at once, it also probably doesn't matter, because my skull probably will have asploded.

You know, I have a pony starship design, with lasers. If I throw in a Pokeball deathstar and a spelljammer galleon full of space ninjas, will it blend make for a good space battle?

[Aotrs Commander]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

It's good to have somepony around to put the great abstract debates of our time in their proper context. Their proper, pony-starship-explosion filled context.

Someone has to be the voice of (comparative) reason around here...!

Originally Posted by Sean Mirrsen

You know, I have a pony starship design, with lasers. If I throw in a Pokeball deathstar and a spelljammer galleon full of space ninjas, will it blend make for a good space battle?

No, soley because, (BIG pet peeve incoming)...*deep metaphorical breath*

Dive for cover!

Sailing ships are not starships, do not work like starships, do not look good as starships, ever - no, whatever example you're thinking of, not even then - and the people that think they do need to be violently corrected with the repeated application of a heavy cruiser to the skull!

Raaaaargh!

...

...

Also Spelljammer: No. Just...NO.



Though replace the ninja...vessel...with a proper starship, like, I dunno, something like a kunai cruiser...

Spoiler

...for added hilarity and you'd be golden.

[Deadly]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Mare In The Mirror Review Part 1: The Partonening.

Disclaimer: Anything I do not draw direct attention to I felt worked. I mark success or failure based on how often I remember to be an editor.

Yay, more review. ^^ I'll leave a lot of your points for now, until you've finished the whole story. Some of the things you find are bound to be related to issues I've been noticing myself, and I don't want to affect what you look for.

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Spoiler

I personally think "Okay" sounds much more human and warm than the cold, robotic "OK". Personal preference though.

I agree "okay" is nicer. I try to use either that or "alright" when I'm conscious about it, sadly I notice OK sometimes slips through.

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Spoiler

Rephrase this. The 'however' at the end is de-emphasised and easy to miss; foreground the exhaustion so the transition jars less.

I've noticed I have a terrible habit of doing that. I have this tendency to put things at the end of a sentence which would fit more naturally at the beginning or middle. I'm not sure why.

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Spoiler

THAT ALL SAID, I'm still enjoying this story and looking forwards to continuing my review! Just trying to provide a topic to direct your efforts at

Thanks, glad the story is working for you still. Hope I can keep that up :)

[Soras Teva Gee]

Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

Speaking of Art...

I don't have a problem with any of the different styles that an artist may employ in their work. I may not enjoy all the styles but I don't believe there has to be an accepted way of making art. My real problem is the critics. They seem determined to reduce everything to certain styles or meanings and act as if their opinions are the most justified. Not every artist is trying to send some secret deeper meaning and just because they aren't doesn't make their work automatically inferior.

This, this, this, and this.

Unfortunately its these types that separate a casual hobby sold for a couple bucks at a flea market and a name artist worth thousands/millions/etc so.

Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

Ok now I'm curious. How would they interpret a Gorn story? Or an RP that someone compiled and presented as a story?

Simple it wouldn't be literature, its just plebeian doggerel unworthy of their opinion.

[Thanqol]

Originally Posted by Deadly

Yay, more review. ^^ I'll leave a lot of your points for now, until you've finished the whole story. Some of the things you find are bound to be related to issues I've been noticing myself, and I don't want to affect what you look for.

Probably a good decision!

I've noticed I have a terrible habit of doing that. I have this tendency to put things at the end of a sentence which would fit more naturally at the beginning or middle. I'm not sure why.

Quite possibly it has it's origins in your speech patterns. I find quite a lot of how I structure my writing is based on how I structure my speech; changing one changes the other.

That problem also tends to crop up when you're thinking a sentence or two ahead when you write; past and present get jumbled slightly. I've noticed that I never write so badly as when I'm trying to write specific words rather than letting myself follow the flow, as bizarre as that sounds.

Anyway, more tomorrow; good night.

[grimbold]

Originally Posted by Sean Mirrsen

You know, I have a pony starship design, with lasers. If I throw in a Pokeball deathstar and a spelljammer galleon full of space ninjas, will it blend make for a good space battle?

this would be AMAZING!

[Kindablue]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

Simple it wouldn't be literature, its just plebeian doggerel unworthy of their opinion.

Which one, the gorn story or the RP?

[Sean Mirrsen]

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander

No, soley because, (BIG pet peeve incoming)...*deep metaphorical breath*

Dive for cover!

Sailing ships are not starships, do not work like starships, do not look good as starships, ever - no, whatever example you're thinking of, not even then - and the people that think they do need to be violently corrected with the repeated application of a heavy cruiser to the skull!

Raaaaargh!

Heh, sorry, but "spelljammer galleon" was the only thing that popped into my mind when I tried to imagine ninjas in space. I blame the "true gaming stories" by Jennifer Reitz. The only other thing I remembered was the "Ninja Robots" anime, and that would be a little too odd.

In other news, I now feel interested in designing a functional and effective starship that can still be technically called a sailing ship. Maybe I'll even bust out my old modelling skills. I've already tried making a Star Trek ship:

Spoiler

Too bad the contest it was for was for North America only...

[Aotrs Commander]

Originally Posted by Sean Mirrsen

Heh, sorry, but "spelljammer galleon" was the only thing that popped into my mind when I tried to imagine ninjas in space. I blame the "true gaming stories" by Jennifer Reitz. The only other thing I remembered was the "Ninja Robots" anime, and that would be a little too odd.

In other news, I now feel interested in designing a functional and effective starship that can still be technically called a sailing ship.

The only example I can think of that was close was the one they did in Deep Space Nine once, because they at least remembered that you can't put a fragging mast on something that goes in three dimensions.

You can have starships with solar sails, but they will not look anything like a sailing ship, simply because physics just don't work that way.

You don't put wheels or propellers or helicoptor rotors or oars or steam funnels or paddles etc etc on starships; sails are just as silly and nonsensical.

(The really stupid part is that I don't think sailing ships are even very photogenic to start with. Especially the high fore and aft castled ones favoured in popular culture, which were often in practise sufficently unstable the ships sometimes sank under normal operations (see the Mary Rose, or the HMS Royal George (which sank on a clear, fine morning at port) or the Swedish Vasa (which heeled over and sank less than two miles into it's maiden voyage.)

[Rebelhero]

So who was it that posted the pic of Filly Twilight crying asking momma twilight why books had to end?

Cause thats how i feel right now. I just finished one of the more interesting "young adult" books ive read. it does help that its a steampunk novel with a mild helping of romance. im such a sucker for that.... but now im all GRRR cause its over. the whole trilogy of WW1 alternate history ends when there is so much more to be told!

*ramble ramble ramble*

[Soras Teva Gee]

Originally Posted by Rebelhero

So who was it that posted the pic of Filly Twilight crying asking momma twilight why books had to end?

Cause thats how i feel right now. I just finished one of the more interesting "young adult" books ive read. it does help that its a steampunk novel with a mild helping of romance. im such a sucker for that.... but now im all GRRR cause its over. the whole trilogy of WW1 alternate history ends when there is so much more to be told!

*ramble ramble ramble*

That was me. For much the reasons you describe.

Incidentially what was the title?

[Rebelhero]

Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee

That was me. For much the reasons you describe.

Incidentially what was the title?

Its the "Leviathan" Trilogy. Leviathan, Behemoth and Goliath.

[Lix Lorn]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Ohhh-hhh, you haven't heard the half of it. I'm an English major. Every artist is seeking deeper meaning. Even made-up poets who's secret authors came out and admitted they were trolling poetry critics get treated with deathly seriousness about the deeper meaning that secretly inspired their actions. And there's no way to produce an 'inferior' work because everything has a secret meaning.

Oooh one of my favourite quotes is about this
'An english major reads a sentence of a book, and reads the phrase 'blue curtains'. He proclaims "Ah, the blue represents the main character's depression and loneliness."
A writer writes the phrase 'blue curtains'. He means "The curtains are ------- blue, alright?"'

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander

On art - as in philosphy - I am a terrible, terrible peasant, because I have an engineer's mindset and thus no patience for all the pretentious mumbo-jumbo that has a tendancy to surround such things. (And in the latter case, being a space-Lich necromancer, all the big questions become somewhat moot, when people say "who knows what happens after death" and you can go "I do" and then give them a highly detailed explanation, with coloured diagrams and a field trip¹).

Oh god I laughed so much. I love you soooo much. xD
So much I'm CONSIDERING not casting that spell on Hope. But you are mean to her... it's a quandary!

Hey, ponythread. What's funnier?
A) Watching Aotrs release his impotent homicidal rage on his assistant?
B) Watching Aorts not be able to attack his assistant and stew in rage?

[Kyouhen]

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

Hey, ponythread. What's funnier?
A) Watching Aotrs release his impotent homicidal rage on his assistant?
B) Watching Aorts not be able to attack his assistant and stew in rage?

*Moves to the other end of the thread*
I vote for B.

[Rebelhero]

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

Oooh one of my favourite quotes is about this
'An english major reads a sentence of a book, and reads the phrase 'blue curtains'. He proclaims "Ah, the blue represents the main character's depression and loneliness."
A writer writes the phrase 'blue curtains'. He means "The curtains are ------- blue, alright?"'


Oh god I laughed so much. I love you soooo much. xD
So much I'm CONSIDERING not casting that spell on Hope. But you are mean to her... it's a quandary!

Hey, ponythread. What's funnier?
A) Watching Aotrs release his impotent homicidal rage on his assistant?
B) Watching Aorts not be able to attack his assistant and stew in rage?

With all due respect to the great lich, id prefer to not see hopereaver as a bruised sack of flesh. after all i was the one suggesting to bring her back after that unfortunate blowing up event. in which Mr. Bleakbane not only got back hopereaver, but ALL his lost ships and their crews, all thanks to our resident Demi-god.
I would also like to see him come up with new and creative ways to vent his rage.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

Hey, ponythread. What's funnier?
A) Watching Aotrs release his impotent homicidal rage on his assistant?
B) Watching Aorts not be able to attack his assistant and stew in rage?

I'm going to go ahead and say B) just to spite my self-preservation instinct.

[otakuryoga]

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander

Though replace the ninja...vessel...with a proper starship, like, I dunno, something like a kunai cruiser...

Spoiler

...for added hilarity and you'd be golden.

is that some kind of wind-up starship? looks like it anyway

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

Oh god I laughed so much. I love you soooo much. xD
So much I'm CONSIDERING not casting that spell on Hope. But you are mean to her... it's a quandary!

Hey, ponythread. What's funnier?
A) Watching Aotrs release his impotent homicidal rage on his assistant?
B) Watching Aorts not be able to attack his assistant and stew in rage?

would this be before or after someone tries to make his head "asplode" with the aforementioned drawing?

[Anarion]

Originally Posted by Thanqol

Ohhh-hhh, you haven't heard the half of it. I'm an English major. Every artist is seeking deeper meaning. Even made-up poets who's secret authors came out and admitted they were trolling poetry critics get treated with deathly seriousness about the deeper meaning that secretly inspired their actions. And there's no way to produce an 'inferior' work because everything has a secret meaning.

This feels like an appropriate response: http://xkcd.com/451/

Originally Posted by Kindablue

Again, I understand your point. I don't care about it because the skillful execution of an idea isn't what I look for in a good piece of art. I look for an instantaneous visceral reaction. I want to be struck blind by the way two colors blend together in a painting; I want a line of poetry to stop my mind from working for minutes on end; and if an artist can get that from me by going down to Home Depot and buying $30 worth of paint and mindlessly rolling it on some canvas and sticking it in a dimly lit room, who am I to call him a hack?

Spoiler

I read an interesting article this morning about Richard Price losing a lawsuit for copyright infringement with his collages. It seemed kind of appropriate to our art discussion since it asks questions like what it means for a work to be original or transformative in nature and basically how far we're wiling to let people go and still call themselves artists.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/ar...r=1&ref=design

Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander

c) Does it have any clever or novel thought behind it? (I mean "clever" from as in "creates some kind of interesting visual (etc) effect" or something, not "is supposed to be representative of Man's Repressed Need to Hit Pretentious Gits in the Face With a Sledgehammer"

You're drawing on personal experience for that one, I can tell.

Originally Posted by Lix Lorn

Oooh one of my favourite quotes is about this
'An english major reads a sentence of a book, and reads the phrase 'blue curtains'. He proclaims "Ah, the blue represents the main character's depression and loneliness."
A writer writes the phrase 'blue curtains'. He means "The curtains are ------- blue, alright?"'


Oh god I laughed so much. I love you soooo much. xD
So much I'm CONSIDERING not casting that spell on Hope. But you are mean to her... it's a quandary!

Hey, ponythread. What's funnier?
A) Watching Aotrs release his impotent homicidal rage on his assistant?
B) Watching Aorts not be able to attack his assistant and stew in rage?

Let's go with...B

*Dives for cover behind picture of Luna and Fluttershy*

Spoiler

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm gonna chime in here as the lone voice of closed fist philosophyreason and vote for A.
If you do everything for her, she will never learn. Only by escaping the situation she finds herself in and/or becoming powerful enough to ensure her own safety will Hopereaver ever be truly safe from magical space liches.

[Forum Explorer]

I vote for C: Finally turn her into a lich again.

[Lix Lorn]

Originally Posted by otakuryoga

would this be before or after someone tries to make his head "asplode" with the aforementioned drawing?

Depends on how long it takes to draw that pic and how long it takes for me to get round to it. xD

Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes

I'm gonna chime in here as the lone voice of closed fist philosophyreason and vote for A.
If you do everything for her, she will never learn. Only by escaping the situation she finds herself in and/or becoming powerful enough to ensure her own safety will Hopereaver ever be truly safe from magical space liches.

Intriguing theory. That said, she's in a military group so can't make that decision safely.

Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

I vote for C: Finally turn her into a lich again.

I don't think she wants to. xD

Also
Aotrs
1S TH1S YOU >:?

Spoiler