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Old 01-22-2012, 09:29 AM   Top  -  End  -  #1
Lyndworm
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Default (3.5) The Fire, Acid, Cold, & Electricity Mages (Prestige Classes) [PEACH]

First off, I'd like to start this post with an enormous thanks to NeoSeraphi. In addition to being an enormously talented homebrewer, I've come to know that he's a legitimately good guy, too. Plus, his Pyromaniac was a huge inspiration for these classes. They perform a close enough role that you'd probably not allow both in the same campaign, but either one beats Complete Arcane's Elemental Savant (from which this class pulls heavily). Hopefully mine and his aren't too similar in the end, but to be comparable isn't exactly a bad thing in my book. After all, doesn't everyone love that Seraphi HomebrewTM? Please tell me what you think of these classes, good, bad, or indifferent. Without further adieu, I present the classes themselves:



Fire Specialist:
Spoiler

Acid Specialist:
Spoiler

Cold Specialist:
Spoiler

Electricity Specialist:
Spoiler
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Old 01-22-2012, 09:48 AM   Top  -  End  -  #2
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mage of the Fiery Soul & Mage of the Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

Nice. Close to Seraphi work, but certainly not identical. I like it. Not sure why Corrosive, Shocking, and Sonorous Heart are not in here but w/e.

I think Gift of the elements can deal a bit more than 1d6 to enemies and grant the burst ability to weapons as well.
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:00 AM   Top  -  End  -  #3
Lyndworm
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mage of the Fiery Soul & Mage of the Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfstone View Post
Nice. Close to Seraphi work, but certainly not identical. I like it. Not sure why Corrosive, Shocking, and Sonorous Heart are not in here but w/e.
I chose Cold and Fire specifically because they're the two most popular elements in the game, both in offense and defense, because they're the only two with access to Piercing Cold/Searing Spell, and because they're opposed to one another/had the most obvious choices for SLAs. So, partially it was a design choice, partially I'm lazy. However, I probably wouldn't allow a Sonic-focused version just because of how rare (and therefore strong) the Sonic type is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfstone View Post
I think Gift of the elements can deal a bit more than 1d6 to enemies and grant the burst ability to weapons as well.
Yeah, probably... To be honest, that was the ability about which I was least confident. I thought it felt a little weak to show up so late in the game. What do you think of Charisma bonus x 1d6 damage (in addition to the burst affect)?
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:18 AM   Top  -  End  -  #4
NeoSeraphi
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mage of the Fiery Soul & Mage of the Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

There is a similar point you could make that was made with my pyromaniac class, about how if you have to negotiate with an outsider, your class probably deserves Diplomacy on its class skill list. I disagreed, but I gave the pyromancer Bluff because that's what I assumed he'd be doing, but you didn't give this guy either...so I would pick one and give it to them.

Elemental Savant: There's going to be a bit of tricky wording here, but you should know that Piercing Cold specifically has no effect on creatures with the [cold] subtype. (It still pierces cold immunity, but not if the creature is immune to cold by being [cold]). However, Searing Spell does not have this restriction. So you'll need to work that into the ability somehow, that Piercing Cold doesn't help you deal full damage against a creature with the [cold] subtype.

Elemental Focus (Ex): Yikes. Definitely very little reason for someone to choose Fiery Heart over Icy Heart with this ability. Between Cold Focus, Greater Cold Focus and nine levels in this class, you're getting a +5 DC to all your [cold] spells.

Elemental Apotheosis: Nice! Very nice ability. However, I would note that if you are Large or Larger, you get a pair of slams instead of 1. (as Elementals do)

All in all, a good class. I like it.
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:31 AM   Top  -  End  -  #5
Lyndworm
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mage of the Fiery Soul & Mage of the Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
There is a similar point you could make that was made with my pyromaniac class, about how if you have to negotiate with an outsider, your class probably deserves Diplomacy on its class skill list. I disagreed, but I gave the pyromancer Bluff because that's what I assumed he'd be doing, but you didn't give this guy either...so I would pick one and give it to them.
My bad, I had meant for Diplomacy to be on there. Thank you very much for catching that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
Elemental Savant: There's going to be a bit of tricky wording here, but you should know that Piercing Cold specifically has no effect on creatures with the [cold] subtype. (It still pierces cold immunity, but not if the creature is immune to cold by being [cold]). However, Searing Spell does not have this restriction. So you'll need to work that into the ability somehow, that Piercing Cold doesn't help you deal full damage against a creature with the [cold] subtype.
Oh, yeah... I always thought that was stupid. Man, we were just talking about that, too, weren't we (shivering touch vs white dragon)? I'm a little scatterbrained recently. Anyhoo, I'll see what I can do with the wording to get that cleared up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
Elemental Focus (Ex): Yikes. Definitely very little reason for someone to choose Fiery Heart over Icy Heart with this ability. Between Cold Focus, Greater Cold Focus and nine levels in this class, you're getting a +5 DC to all your [cold] spells.
While the effects of those two feats and nine levels are, indeed, a +5 to the DC... Is that really such a terrible thing? I'd say it was a ridiculous thing, myself, if it weren't for the fact that you had to blow two feats on it and are minimum level 14. Maybe my sense of balance is off today... I only feel bad that the Fiery Souls can't do the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
Elemental Apotheosis: Nice! Very nice ability. However, I would note that if you are Large or Larger, you get a pair of slams instead of 1. (as Elementals do)
Ooh, good catch; I'll tack that on there. (It's not fair to the Small and medium guys, but how many creatures are really going to use their slams instead of their spells, anyway?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
All in all, a good class. I like it.
Now I'm all tingly inside.
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Old 01-22-2012, 11:22 AM   Top  -  End  -  #6
NeoSeraphi
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mage of the Fiery Soul & Mage of the Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
My bad, I had meant for Diplomacy to be on there. Thank you very much for catching that!
You are very welcome.

Quote:
While the effects of those two feats and nine levels are, indeed, a +5 to the DC... Is that really such a terrible thing? I'd say it was a ridiculous thing, myself, if it weren't for the fact that you had to blow two feats on it and are minimum level 14. Maybe my sense of balance is off today... I only feel bad that the Fiery Souls can't do the same thing.
That was my point, not because of the unfair balance, but because Fiery Souls wouldn't get it. However, once you update Elemental Savant, it will become more balanced. (Fiery Souls can completely pierce [Fire] creatures, while Icy Souls can pump their save DCs higher)

Edit: By the way, you should remember that you're changing every [acid], [electricity], [fire] and [sonic] spell into a [cold] spell with the first level of the class, and upping the caps...so a +5 DC to the saving throw for all your damage spells...Just wanted you to be aware of that. Take from it what you will.
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Old 01-22-2012, 04:24 PM   Top  -  End  -  #7
Lyndworm
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mage of the Fiery Soul & Mage of the Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
By the way, you should remember that you're changing every [acid], [electricity], [fire] and [sonic] spell into a [cold] spell with the first level of the class, and upping the caps...so a +5 DC to the saving throw for all your damage spells...Just wanted you to be aware of that. Take from it what you will.
I'm aware, thank you. Although I did forget about the Cold Focus line at first, I don't think that changing +3 to +5 is worth the cost of two feats. If someone was willing to press the point, I might change my mind. However, with my current mindset and understanding, I think we'll be fine. Thank you very much for examining the class; it's very appreciated.
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:05 PM   Top  -  End  -  #8
NeoSeraphi
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mage of the Fiery Soul & Mage of the Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
I'm aware, thank you. Although I did forget about the Cold Focus line at first, I don't think that changing +3 to +5 is worth the cost of two feats. If someone was willing to press the point, I might change my mind. However, with my current mindset and understanding, I think we'll be fine. Thank you very much for examining the class; it's very appreciated.
Sure. If you don't think it's a big deal, then it's not a big deal. I like the class. The fire shield ability, in particular, really surprised me. I never thought about how custom-built fire shield would be for a dual-class like this, but it is. Very cool move, and it can be fluffed awesomely once you hit Elemental Apotheosis and your slams are on fire too.
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:38 PM   Top  -  End  -  #9
Elfstone
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mage of the Fiery Soul & Mage of the Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
I chose Cold and Fire specifically because they're the two most popular elements in the game, both in offense and defense, because they're the only two with access to Piercing Cold/Searing Spell, and because they're opposed to one another/had the most obvious choices for SLAs. So, partially it was a design choice, partially I'm lazy. However, I probably wouldn't allow a Sonic-focused version just because of how rare (and therefore strong) the Sonic type is.
Well. I get the laziness. But in the interests of the public, I demand you make these classes! Sonic is rare because most people do not use it. Breaking a trend isn't a bad thing. But powering Sonic down wouldn't be that hard to do. But really, its okay if you wait awhile. These classes are just so great there should be more of them :p

Yeah, probably... To be honest, that was the ability about which I was least confident. I thought it felt a little weak to show up so late in the game. What do you think of Charisma bonus x 1d6 damage (in addition to the burst affect)? I feel great about it.
Neo made good points. I agree. +2 DC vs penetrating all resistance is cool.
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:22 PM   Top  -  End  -  #10
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mage of the Fiery Soul & Mage of the Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
Sure. If you don't think it's a big deal, then it's not a big deal. I like the class. The fire shield ability, in particular, really surprised me. I never thought about how custom-built fire shield would be for a dual-class like this, but it is. Very cool move, and it can be fluffed awesomely once you hit Elemental Apotheosis and your slams are on fire too.
Thank you much; I was particularly fond of that SLA. I especially like how it interacts with the capstone, because it makes being Vulnerable a lot easier to swallow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfstone View Post
Well. I get the laziness. But in the interests of the public, I demand you make these classes! Sonic is rare because most people do not use it. Breaking a trend isn't a bad thing. But powering Sonic down wouldn't be that hard to do. But really, its okay if you wait awhile. These classes are just so great there should be more of them :p
In all honestly, I'll probably look into making those classes. The problems I'd be facing in doing so are fairly easy to enumerate:
  • I'd need to find a spell similar in power to chill or heat metal (2nd level) to give as an SLA at 3rd level.
  • I'd need to find a spell similar in power to fire shield (4th level) to give as an SLA at 7th level.
  • I'd need to make an ability that replaces gaining the Cold/Fire subtype (Earth and Acid aren't really all that related, and what in the world do you do for Sonic?).
If/when I complete the above list, I'll make new classes.
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:43 PM   Top  -  End  -  #11
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mage of the Fiery Soul & Mage of the Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

Well those are really not that hard to do, first off, you can make your own spells. Charge the air around someone or make the earth corrosive beneath their feet, make their body resonate with sound waves, stuff like that. For a sonic template, you could use crystal. For Earth I swear there is a corrosive one (thats how someone made acid breathing sharkes) and lightning is easily air.
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Old 01-23-2012, 09:07 PM   Top  -  End  -  #12
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mage of the Fiery Soul & Mage of the Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

It's not hard to fluff what an attack made with Acid, Electricity, or even Sonic damage would look like, but that's not what I was saying. Chill and heat metal are very situational, and are almost as much fluff as they are real abilities. I'd need to come up with/find abilities/spells to mimic that power level and utility.

Gaining the Air template for Electricity makes sense to me, and was the only one of the three that I'd already figured out. What/where is this Crystal template of which you speak? I'd like to examine it. Also, I can only think of two Acid-based templates, and neither one of them fits all that well (Horrid and Acidborn, the first is Dire Animal-only, I think, and the second is Aquatic subtype only, and with good reason). I'm open to homebrewed options, of course, but I can't think of anything to nab.
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Old 01-25-2012, 02:47 AM   Top  -  End  -  #13
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mage of the Fiery Soul & Mage of the Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

Why not have the Earth-based be more defensive in nature? Something akin to a Stoneskin, perhaps.
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Old 01-25-2012, 03:39 AM   Top  -  End  -  #14
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mage of the Fiery Soul & Mage of the Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

I certainly don't mind the idea of a defense-oriented version, but that still leaves me at a loss for the 3rd level SLA (assuming that the stoneskin SLA is a better match for 8th level, which I think it is). I'm also still looking for a capstone ability... Anyway, thanks a lot for your advice, Solaris. I appreciate it; you've given me some good thoughts to mull over.
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Old 01-25-2012, 08:38 AM   Top  -  End  -  #15
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mage of the Fiery Soul & Mage of the Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

Im not much for casters and havnt critiqued any PrCs as of yet but id say this is really good. I know of a certain pyro wizard in my party that would jump on this in a heartbeat.

That said, i cant shake the feeling that your missing something.
Ah, now i remember. Since all of your damage dealing spells could essentially be narrowed down to either fire/cold or a handful of others (like disintegrate), shouldnt you throw in some ability to ignore or reduce damage resistance/immunity to your element? It seems rather pointless to be a Mage of the Fiery Soul fighting a Red Dragon and still have to rely on magic items to overcome its defence to your most focused and possibly reliable damage output.
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Old 01-25-2012, 08:55 AM   Top  -  End  -  #16
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mage of the Fiery Soul & Mage of the Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

Thank you very much! I'm really glad that no one's seen anything horrible in there, yet.

As for fire Resistance/Immunity...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
Elemental Savant (Ex):
At 5th level, the Mage's ability to wield the elements astounds and frightens even elementals. From this point on, any spell or Spell-Like Ability with the Cold descriptor (if the Mage has an Icy Heart) or the Fire descriptor (if the Mage has a Fiery Soul) cast by the Mage can affect even those normally protected against such effects. Creatures who are usually immune instead take half damage, creatures who take 150% damage instead take 200% damage, and the spells bypass Energy Resistance entirely.

If a spell is affected by both this ability and either Searing Spell or Piercing Cold, the effects are similar but stronger. Creatures who are usually immune instead take full damage (unless you're employing Piercing Cold against a creature with the cold subtype, in which case the spell has no additional effect), creatures who take 150% damage instead take 250% damage, but the spell has no additional affect against those protected by Energy Resistance.
You've pretty much just suggested that I add an ability that the class already gets at 5th level.
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:42 AM   Top  -  End  -  #17
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mage of the Fiery Soul & Mage of the Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

Oops, i mustve misse that part. My bad
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Old 01-25-2012, 06:00 PM   Top  -  End  -  #18
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mage of the Fiery Soul & Mage of the Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

The dual nature is cool, but I think that it would be interesting to have a capstone that is somewhat different for each one. (but that's just my personal preference)
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Old 01-28-2012, 07:21 AM   Top  -  End  -  #19
Lyndworm
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mages of the Fiery Soul & Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

I'm not necessarily against that idea itself, but I'm not super psyched about it, either. On one hand, the classes are meant to be more or less identical, with the key differences being based solely in the elements themselves. Honestly, if I could think of a way to differentiate them that was flavorful, mechanically sound, and easy to implement I probably would.

In other news, I've been thinking over the idea of creating Mages of the Caustic Soul and Lightning Heart. I'm considering taking out the chill or heat metal SLA that the Fiery Souls and Icy Hearts get at 3rd level, and replacing them with the following:

Abilities:
Spoiler

I'm not so sure about that, though... Also, I'm not quite sure what to give the Caustic Soul and Lightning Heart at 8th level, though I'm looking into it. Finally, I think I know what to give the two new guys at 10th level: the same thing, but with a different element, and just immunity instead of the elemental subtype. I'm afraid that this would make them too strong in comparison to the Fiery Soul and Icy Heart, but I'm kind of at a loss here. Any comments, good, bad, or indifferent, would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 01-28-2012, 10:53 AM   Top  -  End  -  #20
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Default Re: (3.5) The Mages of the Fiery Soul & Icy Heart (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

Acidic Touch definitely sounds like a Reflex save. You've got to react or be covered in acid, and each round you try and shake it off. Fortitude has to do with your inner body and your immune system, Reflex has to do with dodging and your skin.
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Old 01-29-2012, 04:39 AM   Top  -  End  -  #21
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Default Re: (3.5) The Elemental Mages (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

You know something? I agree entirely. I think (I can't even remember for sure right now) that I wanted to make one attack of each type (Damage and Daze) Fortitude and Reflex, and acid made much more sense as Fortitude than fire did (though they both make more sense as Reflex). Along that same vein, the Shocking Touch ability makes much more sense as Fortitude than as Reflex. I'll switch it so that both damage abilities are Reflex and both Daze abilities are Fortitude. That doesn't even strike me as weird in any way because that's both more balanced (status effects are more dangerous than direct damage, and Fortitude saves are generally easier to make) and more in line with existing effects (most direct damage effects are against Reflex, whereas most status effects are against Fortitude).

Thanks for the help!



OK, I've done the above, and updated the class with Acid and Electricity variants. I've split each variant into a different write-up, so that it's much easier to read. Any comments would be appreciated, especially relating to wording and (relative) balance.
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Old 01-29-2012, 11:38 AM   Top  -  End  -  #22
Elfstone
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Default Re: (3.5) The Fire, Acid, Cold, & Electricity Mages (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

Oh god. The bolded letters made me laugh pretty hard. I think all of them are pretty awesome. But sonic still gets no love!

Also, how about a class that combines all of them, since the flavor in the existing four is awesome.
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Old 01-29-2012, 02:10 PM   Top  -  End  -  #23
Lyndworm
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Default Re: (3.5) The Fire, Acid, Cold, & Electricity Mages (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

You've never heard of FACES before? Every mage has to get his game FACES on every now and again.

Sonic doesn't get much love because there's no such feat as Energy Substitution (Sonic).

I'm not sure what you mean by "combines them." Do you mean a PrC that requires levels in four other PrCs as prerequisites? I've never seen anything like that before, but it's somewhat intriguing. I have no idea how that would even be done, though.
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Old 01-29-2012, 02:15 PM   Top  -  End  -  #24
NeoSeraphi
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Default Re: (3.5) The Fire, Acid, Cold, & Electricity Mages (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

I call upon you, sir, to give them all a level 9 or 10 ability that lets them apply Energy Admixture (Complete Arcane, the Gary Oak to Energy Substitution) to their spells once per day for free (or maybe more often). I am the master of Fire, therefore, my fire spell deals double fire damage when I want it to!
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Old 01-29-2012, 02:19 PM   Top  -  End  -  #25
Lyndworm
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Default Re: (3.5) The Fire, Acid, Cold, & Electricity Mages (Prestige Class) [PEACH]

That's not a bad idea at all, and it certainly helps boost the end of the class a bit. As it stands, I'm pretty sure most people would cut out after getting the 5th level. A powerful ability like that would make it worth staying to 10th, but a 1/day ability like that stops it from being silly.

Good on you, man!
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