Pathfinder Grab Bag Competition Chat Thread

[Golden Ladybug]

Okay, I've posted my Worm-Eaten Collective.

If anyone has any comments, I'd be happy to hear them.

[Tanuki Tales]

Alright, let's do a run down on the Swarmlord.

Role and BaB
You mention it's supposed to take a similar role to the Sorcerer or Wizard with Wildshape and touch attacks to bring it into melee range. And I see it's supposed to be thematically similar to the Druid, so I can see the rational for a medium BaB progression.

But the Paizo team specifically nerfed Wildshape as a combat option and made it quite known that they only saw it for scouting and utility, nothing more. Touch attacks also generally land because most creatures have a much lower touch ac compared to their normal ac.

So, do you really need a medium BaB progression on this guy?

Create Swarm
I notice that your usable swarm's CR as you level reflects the spell level a full caster would have at the same time. The issue with that is that as you level, your Swarms are less and less a threat for what you'd be using them against. Take the Tick Swarm for example; CR 17+ creatures wouldn't be threatened by a CR 9 creature. The swarm traits take care of this in some ways but when your enemies start being casters or dragons or powerful outsiders, those traits become like Damage Reduction/Magic.

Command Swarm
Isn't this as a whole a little limited and/or superfluous? Why not just make the swarms able to move and act on their own and just have it be a swift action or something similar to direct the swarm as a whole?

Hellwasp familiar
I have to ask; why a hellwasp? This class doesn't have any connections to the Hells so it honestly feels tacked on. Why not just make it so the Swarmlord can gain any appropriate vermin as a familiar and have the Hellwasp as one of the options?

Swarm Immunity
What about swarms of Tiny creatures? Otherwise this ability looks fine but you may be getting it too early. The DR is very limited, but those immunities can be useful. It just makes the class really front loaded for level 1 and attractive as a dip. Also, I think you mean sickened, not sickness.

Poison Use
Why poison use? The Swarmlord can create swarms with poison special attacks and the class is centered around offensive usage of swarms. Just something else that feels kind of tacked on since Poison use is generally a stealth/assassin class thing.

Poison Resistance
Does this apply to magical or supernatural poisons as well?

Splice Swarm
What exactly is a "large swarm"?

Disease Resistance
Does this apply to magical or supernatural diseases as well.

Guarded Thoughts
The first part of this is really niche and the second part is definitely too little too late. Flat immunity to Mind-affecting effects would be more suitable honestly.

Hellwasp Swarm
This...is a really weak capstone ability to be honest. It doesn't really entice someone to take all 20 levels in this class.


Oh and I should have said this earlier (with Bel's entry), but I just want to be clear that I don't mean to come off as mean or condescending or picking on the entries I look over. I'm just be thorough in my critiques of the entries so they can be polished and be the best that they can be.


@Ladybug: I'll give your class a run down when you've finished the Crown Worm and Worm-Eaten template.

[Tanuki Tales]

Since it's on my mind at the moment;

I'm thinking ahead for May's theme. Would you guys be on-board if I made the theme tie in with the Avenger's movie being released that month state-side?

[Tarvon000]

Originally Posted by Troll Brau

Role and BaB
You mention it's supposed to take a similar role to the Sorcerer or Wizard with Wildshape and touch attacks to bring it into melee range. And I see it's supposed to be thematically similar to the Druid, so I can see the rational for a medium BaB progression.

. . .

So, do you really need a medium BaB progression on this guy?

Oh, I forgot to rewrite the role after I replaced the touch attack with a different ability. And you're right about the BAB, I changed it to 1/2.

Create Swarm
I notice that your usable swarm's CR as you level reflects the spell level a full caster would have at the same time. The issue with that is that as you level, your Swarms are less and less a threat for what you'd be using them against. Take the Tick Swarm for example; CR 17+ creatures wouldn't be threatened by a CR 9 creature. The swarm traits take care of this in some ways but when your enemies start being casters or dragons or powerful outsiders, those traits become like Damage Reduction/Magic.

I added abilities to make the swarms more powerful at later levels.

Command Swarm
Isn't this as a whole a little limited and/or superfluous? Why not just make the swarms able to move and act on their own and just have it be a swift action or something similar to direct the swarm as a whole?

Actually, this ability is the main reason I made the class in the first place. I've always wanted to add the AP system to a roleplaying game.

Hellwasp familiar
I have to ask; why a hellwasp? This class doesn't have any connections to the Hells so it honestly feels tacked on. Why not just make it so the Swarmlord can gain any appropriate vermin as a familiar and have the Hellwasp as one of the options?

Swarm Immunity
What about swarms of Tiny creatures? Otherwise this ability looks fine but you may be getting it too early. The DR is very limited, but those immunities can be useful. It just makes the class really front loaded for level 1 and attractive as a dip. Also, I think you mean sickened, not sickness.

Poison Use
Why poison use? The Swarmlord can create swarms with poison special attacks and the class is centered around offensive usage of swarms. Just something else that feels kind of tacked on since Poison use is generally a stealth/assassin class thing.

Poison Resistance
Does this apply to magical or supernatural poisons as well?

Splice Swarm
What exactly is a "large swarm"?

Disease Resistance
Does this apply to magical or supernatural diseases as well.

Guarded Thoughts
The first part of this is really niche and the second part is definitely too little too late. Flat immunity to Mind-affecting effects would be more suitable honestly.

Hellwasp Swarm
This...is a really weak capstone ability to be honest. It doesn't really entice someone to take all 20 levels in this class.

All of these were either fixed or replaced with new abilities.

[Kane0]

Ok, my Theg have more or less been submitted, just got some touching up to do which ill get around to later.

And yes for those wondering I completey took the ideas of the Geth and Collectrs from Mass Effect, mashed them together and applied them to the Fogotten Realms. Please PEACH

[Tanuki Tales]

Alright, second rundown for the Swarmlord.

Create Swarm
Letting him place it anywhere in 30 feet of himself is much better. Allows some strategy for dropping swarms before using any action points.

Command Swarm
Are the "Or"s really necessary? What's the difference between moving in a path of your choice and towards the nearest target? There isn't a point cost difference or other opportunity cost, just your choice of action.

Agile Swarm
May I suggest refluffing this as a continuous swarm floating around the Swarmlord and change the dodge bonus to a deflection bonus?

Swarm Resistance
Not a big thing, but I might suggest making this scale in someway. It's very, very, very niche but making it start at DR 5/- and then improve to DR 10/- sometime down the line might be something nice that someone looks forward to as they level.

Evasive Swarm
Like Agile Swarm, I'd just suggest refluffing this as the swarm around the Swarmlord taking/mitigating the blow. Also, do you want this ability to allow Swarmlords to qualify for things that require the Evasion class feature? If so, you probably want to make a note of that.

Penetrating Swarm
This ability is kind of powerful in my opinion. The Penetrating Strike feat only allows the ignoring of 5 points of DR (though doesn't affect DR X/-) and even then a Fighter can't take it until 12th level.

Warded Swarm
SR 17-25 at level 12-20 is a little weak since decent SR would be giving 23-31 at those level ranges.

Greater Swarm
See, this still feels weak as a capstone to me. It's much better than your last one though. Maybe someone else can give an opinion on it, but I still feel that a capstone should be something flat out amazing.

@Kane: I'll give your race a rundown when you've finished the mechanics for it.

[Shadow Lord]

Troll Bräu, are we allowed to make a Race, Class, and Prestige Class combination? As in, are we allowed to do all three for the same entry?

[Tanuki Tales]

Originally Posted by Shadow Lord

Troll Bräu, are we allowed to make a Race, Class, and Prestige Class combination? As in, are we allowed to do all three for the same entry?

Firstly, thank you for using the umlaut.

Secondly, at least for this month's contest the answer is no. In the future, if the folks we get to consistently take part in this contest are up for doing that amount of work for a specific month's contest, I'm all for it. Just at this juncture it wouldn't be fair for you or the other current contestants.

Of course, I know that Ladybug at least would love to see that happen at one point since she/he/hir/other gender pronoun/etc. originally thought that was how this month's contest was set up because of how poorly I worded the first rule.

[Tarvon000]

Originally Posted by Troll Brau

Command Swarm
Are the "Or"s really necessary? What's the difference between moving in a path of your choice and towards the nearest target? There isn't a point cost difference or other opportunity cost, just your choice of action.

Whenever there's an "Or," the first option lets you move the swarm at twice its normal speed. So you have to choose between speed and precision.

Agile Swarm
May I suggest refluffing this as a continuous swarm floating around the Swarmlord and change the dodge bonus to a deflection bonus?

Evasive Swarm
Like Agile Swarm, I'd just suggest refluffing this as the swarm around the Swarmlord taking/mitigating the blow. Also, do you want this ability to allow Swarmlords to qualify for things that require the Evasion class feature? If so, you probably want to make a note of that.

These abilities only apply to the swarms, not to the swarmlord itself. I changed the wording to make this clearer.

Penetrating Swarm
This ability is kind of powerful in my opinion. The Penetrating Strike feat only allows the ignoring of 5 points of DR (though doesn't affect DR X/-) and even then a Fighter can't take it until 12th level.

Greater Swarm
See, this still feels weak as a capstone to me. It's much better than your last one though. Maybe someone else can give an opinion on it, but I still feel that a capstone should be something flat out amazing.

Okay, then. Penetrating Swarm now ignores only 10 points of DR until 20th level.

[Milo v3]

I've thrown my blade into the arena. Its not finished but it will be done long before the deadline. It is an assassin style base class who has various spider based powers. I really hope thats close enough to arthropodes to qualify, as spiders are arthropodes.

As I go along with it I'd like to hear any comments people have about it.

I'm thinking ahead for May's theme. Would you guys be on-board if I made the theme tie in with the Avenger's movie being released that month state-side?

I've got an idea for a superpowered class that I've been wanting to make but never had the initiative, the due date may give me the push to make it.

So basically I'm all for you making a tie in. And its your competition, the theme is simply inspiration which you choose for us to aim towards.

That made more sense in my head.

[Tanuki Tales]

Originally Posted by Tarvon000

Whenever there's an "Or," the first option lets you move the swarm at twice its normal speed. So you have to choose between speed and precision.

Could you explain the rationale behind this ability then please? I know you want to start a new subsystem but why did you choose to build it in this way?

Okay, then. Penetrating Swarm now ignores only 10 points of DR until 20th level.

Still a little much at 8. Maybe 5 at 8, 10 at 14 and then all at 20?

The capstone still feels like it could use something. Maybe when you summon a swarm you get two instead of one? Something like that should be added on to what you already have to really give it an oomph.

Originally Posted by Milo v3

I've thrown my blade into the arena. Its not finished but it will be done long before the deadline. It is an assassin style base class who has various spider based powers. I really hope thats close enough to arthropodes to qualify, as spiders are arthropodes.

As I go along with it I'd like to hear any comments people have about it.

And I feel like a massive idiot.

Thank you for saying something or I may not have noticing I had anthropods instead of arthropods.

And yes, that meets the theme.

I've got an idea for a superpowered class that I've been wanting to make but never had the initiative, the due date may give me the push to make it.

So basically I'm all for you making a tie in. And its your competition, the theme is simply inspiration which you choose for us to aim towards.

That made more sense in my head.

Well, I can make themes as I please and till I'm blue in the face but I won't matter if no one likes them enough to compete.

But that's good to hear, guess I've got May's theme then.

I'll take a look at your entry later Milo, still trying to wake up here.

[Tanuki Tales]

Alright, time to give a run down on the Spider Blood Assassin.

Alignment
How exactly does one go about being a "Good" Assassin?

Skills
As an assassin, shouldn't this class have Knowledge (Local) and/or Knowledge (Nobility)? And why Knowledge (Nature)?

Weapon Proficiencies
If I remember right, one of the many issues with the Monk (in both 3.5 and Pathfinder) was that it's weapon list was so restricted. Why not just grant flat Simple Weapon Prof and then list the extras?

Assassin Techniques
Camouflage - You have a weird bit of grammar in the first sentence.

Child of Araneae - This feels a little weak to me as a 9th level feature. Maybe if the spider got half the Assassin's Sneak Attack dice.

Combat Trick - There's no spacing between this and the choice above it.

Drain the Fluids - And this works on any kind of creature? Elementals, Undead and Oozes?

Weapon Training - This is honestly a waste of a technique. Sure, normally the Assassin can't take it but the feat isn't that great to begin with. Maybe if the technique let you count as some level of virtual fighter or something.

Widow's Toxin - This ability needs to be tagged. Also, poisons in Pathfinder don't have "initial" and "secondary" damage, that was a 3.5 thing. Viper for example.

Why does this key off charisma instead of constitution?

Save Bonus against Poison
The name is honestly clunky, I'd consider renaming it. And it needs to be tagged as an ability. Also, does it apply to magical and supernatural poisons?

Advanced Techniques
You forgot to bold the name of this ability.

A Touch of Venom - The wording of this ability is a little clunky. You should word it more like, "If the Spider Blood Assassin successfully delivers an unarmed strike or a melee touch attack, they may use their Widow's Toxin Assassin Technique in addition to the normal effects of the attack."

Weapon Subtly
I think you misspelled subtly. This ability is something generally gained by a class earlier on than this point and once you add this with some of your other abilities, the class is starting to become MAD.


This class has no capstone; what entices me to take all 20 levels of this class?

In fact, once I hit level 10 there's little to keep me in the class except for some numeric boosts and if there were some more Assassin Techniques, Advanced Techniques or feats that I really wanted for my build but hadn't gotten yet by level 10.

[Milo v3]

Alignment
How exactly does one go about being a "Good" Assassin?

Only killing villians. I'm pretty sure most hero's are good even though they kill people.

Skills
As an assassin, shouldn't this class have Knowledge (Local) and/or Knowledge (Nobility)? And why Knowledge (Nature)?

Knoweldge (Local) is meant to be there seems I forgot it. Knowledge (Nature) is their so they can identify spiders and get Child of Araneae. I didn't want to add Knowledge (Nobility) as I thought it might cause it to have too many class skills

Weapon Proficiencies
If I remember right, one of the many issues with the Monk (in both 3.5 and Pathfinder) was that it's weapon list was so restricted. Why not just grant flat Simple Weapon Prof and then list the extras?

Your right I've changed it so it works with all Simple Weapons.

Assassin Techniques
Camouflage - You have a weird bit of grammar in the first sentence.

Fixed

Child of Araneae - This feels a little weak to me as a 9th level feature. Maybe if the spider got half the Assassin's Sneak Attack dice.

Gave it better sneak attack, think I may have stuffed up the wording though.

Combat Trick - There's no spacing between this and the choice above it.

Fixed

Drain the Fluids - And this works on any kind of creature? Elementals, Undead and Oozes?

I'll reword it.

Weapon Training - This is honestly a waste of a technique. Sure, normally the Assassin can't take it but the feat isn't that great to begin with. Maybe if the technique let you count as some level of virtual fighter or something.

Its the Weapons Training Talent from Pathfinders Rogue so it should be realitively balanced... I'll try and beef it up.

Widow's Toxin - This ability needs to be tagged. Also, poisons in Pathfinder don't have "initial" and "secondary" damage, that was a 3.5 thing. Viper for example.

Why does this key off charisma instead of constitution?

Sorry I'll fix.

Save Bonus against Poison
The name is honestly clunky, I'd consider renaming it. And it needs to be tagged as an ability. Also, does it apply to magical and supernatural poisons?

This has the exact same wording and formatting as the Assassin Ability of the same name. Thats why it is like how it is.. Why change what is canon in Pathfinder.

Advanced Techniques
You forgot to bold the name of this ability.

Fixed.

A Touch of Venom - The wording of this ability is a little clunky. You should word it more like, "If the Spider Blood Assassin successfully delivers an unarmed strike or a melee touch attack, they may use their Widow's Toxin Assassin Technique in addition to the normal effects of the attack."

I'll reword this.

Weapon Subtly
I think you misspelled subtly. This ability is something generally gained by a class earlier on than this point and once you add this with some of your other abilities, the class is starting to become MAD.

Changed it to Dexterity

This class has no capstone; what entices me to take all 20 levels of this class?

I tried to think of one but nothing came to mind.... I'll try again.

In fact, once I hit level 10 there's little to keep me in the class except for some numeric boosts and if there were some more Assassin Techniques, Advanced Techniques or feats that I really wanted for my build but hadn't gotten yet by level 10.

I'll try and think up some more Techniques and the Capstone.

[Tanuki Tales]

Originally Posted by Milo v3

Only killing villians. I'm pretty sure most hero's are good even though they kill people.

An "assassin" though is someone who's sole profession is the art of killing another living, sentient being. When it comes down to the line and the end of the day draws to a close, the only answer that enters the mind of the individual such as that is the curtailing of someone or something's life. Even when used for good ends, the act of murder is, at best, a neutral act. Yes, those who are squarely in the good alignment kill, but they do this generally as an action of last resort. The good alignment espouses mercy, kindness, forgiveness and the attempt to take a heinous foe prisoner for potential rehabilitation before exerting the most final of methods.

TL;DR: Good people may kill but assassin kill as their bread and butter.

Knoweldge (Local) is meant to be there seems I forgot it. Knowledge (Nature) is their so they can identify spiders and get Child of Araneae. I didn't want to add Knowledge (Nobility) as I thought it might cause it to have too many class skills

Eh, you can never have too many class skills really. Once you multiclass and dip here and there you can pretty much grab every skill as a class skill before level 4 and still have a good build.

I would suggest expanding the use/necessity of Knowledge (Nature) for the class then to make it less tacked on and more important for the flavor and mechanics of the class.

Gave it better sneak attack, think I may have stuffed up the wording though.

A little. Just end the sentence after the 5 and start a new sentence saying something like, "The animal companion possesses half its master's sneak attack dice as well".

I'll reword it.

Alrighty.

Its the Weapons Training Talent from Pathfinders Rogue so it should be realitively balanced... I'll try and beef it up.

Emphasis on the concept of "should". Pathfinder may have done a lot of good things, but it didn't particularly change the tier system too much or fix every problem. So don't feel scared to make the Spider Blood Assassin better than the Rogue.

Sorry I'll fix.

Looks good.

This has the exact same wording and formatting as the Assassin Ability of the same name. Thats why it is like how it is.. Why change what is canon in Pathfinder.

Because that's why we homebrew good sir. Because that's why we homebrew.

On a serious note though, just because Pathfinder did something one way or named something a certain way doesn't mean we can't tweak it or give it a better window dressing. The wonderful folks at Paizo are no more infallible than you or I.

But it's ultimately up to you to decide to take any advice or critiques I offer, so go with what feels right to you.

At the very least, change the name of the ability. It honestly makes the table look sort of clunky.

I tried to think of one but nothing came to mind.... I'll try again.

I'll try and think up some more Techniques and the Capstone.

I definitely suggest adding in more spider related and themed abilities. Don't feel above cribbing from other fictional sources (like the multiple incarnations of Spider-man for example) when looking for inspiration.

[Milo v3]

Originally Posted by Troll Brau

An "assassin" though is someone who's sole profession is the art of killing another living, sentient being. When it comes down to the line and the end of the day draws to a close, the only answer that enters the mind of the individual such as that is the curtailing of someone or something's life. Even when used for good ends, the act of murder is, at best, a neutral act. Yes, those who are squarely in the good alignment kill, but they do this generally as an action of last resort. The good alignment espouses mercy, kindness, forgiveness and the attempt to take a heinous foe prisoner for potential rehabilitation before exerting the most final of methods.

TL;DR: Good people may kill but assassin kill as their bread and butter.

Based on that that every soldier character at war should be evil. Also I never a Spider Blood Assassin has to be part of an organisation. He could be just have his pact which grants him gifts and he is really a master thief. I think a lot of his talents would be perfect for a thief.

Eh, you can never have too many class skills really. Once you multiclass and dip here and there you can pretty much grab every skill as a class skill before level 4 and still have a good build.

Good Point.

I would suggest expanding the use/necessity of Knowledge (Nature) for the class then to make it less tacked on and more important for the flavor and mechanics of the class.

I'll try to do that. Maybe give it a variant of Animal Empathy.

A little. Just end the sentence after the 5 and start a new sentence saying something like, "The animal companion possesses half its master's sneak attack dice as well".

That is worded lot better than what it was, thanks.

Emphasis on the concept of "should". Pathfinder may have done a lot of good things, but it didn't particularly change the tier system too much or fix every problem. So don't feel scared to make the Spider Blood Assassin better than the Rogue.

I think it already is more powerful than the rogue as it has multiple of its talents and the extra ones are generally more powerful and useful, so that shouldn't be a worry.

On a serious note though, just because Pathfinder did something one way or named something a certain way doesn't mean we can't tweak it or give it a better window dressing. The wonderful folks at Paizo are no more infallible than you or I.

I'll probably rename it to Spider Blood and make it slightly more balanced.

But it's ultimately up to you to decide to take any advice or critiques I offer, so go with what feels right to you.

I like to hear peoples opinions, without them I've submitted something I have no idea on its status on whether grammer needs fixing, balance, or lack of versatility.

I definitely suggest adding in more spider related and themed abilities. Don't feel above cribbing from other fictional sources (like the multiple incarnations of Spider-man for example) when looking for inspiration.

He was the inspiration for this class as he is my favourite hero. Strange a hero being the inspiration for a class excelling at killing. Also I've already got a few ideas.

[Tarvon000]

Originally Posted by Troll Brau

Could you explain the rationale behind this ability then please? I know you want to start a new subsystem but why did you choose to build it in this way?

Swarms are often too slow to be effective if they can only take a single move action each round.

[Tanuki Tales]

Originally Posted by Milo v3

Based on that that every soldier character at war should be evil. Also I never a Spider Blood Assassin has to be part of an organisation. He could be just have his pact which grants him gifts and he is really a master thief. I think a lot of his talents would be perfect for a thief.

That's honestly a skewed comparison to make.

A soldier goes into their duty knowing that chances are that they will have to kill another person in the pursuit of their duty. This is the inevitability of their choice to become a defender for their home land, but it's just that, an inevitability. It may and will happen but a soldier never knows when and it's not the only way to accomplish their duty. They become a soldier to protect that which they hold dear and that is how you have a good soldier. The minority may be sadists using their station as an excuse to commit atrocities, but they are a minority in all but Chaotic/Neutral Evil societies.

An assassin though? An assassin made the conscious decision to lead a life of death dealing. An assassin always kills and exists only to kill, nothing more. They are a living, intelligent weapon that is directed at other living, intelligent creatures. Whether this be by an organization, a lone employer or their own principles, it doesn't change that their hands are drenched in the blood of countless targets. They may kill to meet good ends, but that is the argument of a neutral character, not a good character.

TL;DR: Soldiers exist to protect and sometimes kill. Assassins exist to kill and sometimes protect.

I'd suggest changing the name to "Spider Blood Agent" or "Spider Blood Apostle" or something similar. If you keep assassin in the name you're going to open the class to theological debate, especially against those who try to espouse the capability of being an assassin and of the good alignments as well.

That is worded lot better than what it was, thanks.

You're welcome.

I'll probably rename it to Spider Blood and make it slightly more balanced.

Look forward to seeing it.

I like to hear peoples opinions, without them I've submitted something I have no idea on its status on whether grammer needs fixing, balance, or lack of versatility.

I know, I just feel like I might come off as a little too overbearing or harsh in my critiques.

He was the inspiration for this class as he is my favourite hero. Strange a hero being the inspiration for a class excelling at killing. Also I've already got a few ideas.

Ever read What If? Spider-Man Vs. Wolverine Vol 1 #1?

The whole story concerns Spider-man joining up with Wolverine to terminate terrorist organizations after he accidentally killed a KGB friend of Wolverine's (in the main universe he was haunted and horrified and went into Mary Jane's open arms. In this universe he "stayed in the cold"). He becomes a better martial artist and assassin than Wolverine and he develops his spider sense to the point that it's actual precognition (to the point of detecting things hours and days ahead if I'm remember correctly).

His outfit was really awesome too:

Spoiler

[Tanuki Tales]

Originally Posted by Tarvon000

What I actually did was allow the swarmlord to move a swarm at twice its normal speed by spending an additional action point, and then grouped its options according to action point cost. I'll change the wording to make this clearer.

Alrighty, look forward to the updated version.

[Milo v3]

Originally Posted by Troll Brau

That's honestly a skewed comparison to make.

A soldier goes into their duty knowing that chances are that they will have to kill another person in the pursuit of their duty. This is the inevitability of their choice to become a defender for their home land, but it's just that, an inevitability. It may and will happen but a soldier never knows when and it's not the only way to accomplish their duty. They become a soldier to protect that which they hold dear and that is how you have a good soldier. The minority may be sadists using their station as an excuse to commit atrocities, but they are a minority in all but Chaotic/Neutral Evil societies.

An assassin though? An assassin made the conscious decision to lead a life of death dealing. An assassin always kills and exists only to kill, nothing more. They are a living, intelligent weapon that is directed at other living, intelligent creatures. Whether this be by an organization, a lone employer or their own principles, it doesn't change that their hands are drenched in the blood of countless targets. They may kill to meet good ends, but that is the argument of a neutral character, not a good character.

TL;DR: Soldiers exist to protect and sometimes kill. Assassins exist to kill and sometimes protect.

I'd suggest changing the name to "Spider Blood Agent" or "Spider Blood Apostle" or something similar. If you keep assassin in the name you're going to open the class to theological debate, especially against those who try to espouse the capability of being an assassin and of the good alignments as well.

I'm fine for a theological debate but this definitely isn't the place. But all I want to say is that I've now added that Spider Blood Assassin's don't have to be killers.

Also Apostle means messenger, and an agent is someone who works on the behalf of others, neither of which fit the class's feel.

Look forward to seeing it.

I've made Spider Blood.

I know, I just feel like I might come off as a little too overbearing or harsh in my critiques.

The H in PEACH stands for Honestly and your posts seem to be Honest rather than harsh so they are welcome.

Ever read What If? Spider-Man Vs. Wolverine Vol 1 #1?

The whole story concerns Spider-man joining up with Wolverine to terminate terrorist organizations after he accidentally killed a KGB friend of Wolverine's (in the main universe he was haunted and horrified and went into Mary Jane's open arms. In this universe he "stayed in the cold"). He becomes a better martial artist and assassin than Wolverine and he develops his spider sense to the point that it's actual precognition (to the point of detecting things hours and days ahead if I'm remember correctly).

His outfit was really awesome too:

Spoiler

Sadly I haven't and now I really want to find that issue.

[Tanuki Tales]

Originally Posted by Milo v3

Also Apostle means messenger, and an agent is someone who works on the behalf of others, neither of which fit the class's feel.

Well, the class does get its power from a pact with a Spider Goddess, doesn't it?

I've made Spider Blood.

It looks great. I would still make some mention about magical and supernatural poisons. One doesn't jump directly to my mind, but it'd be good to clarify and/or cover all your bases.

The H in PEACH stands for Honestly and your posts seem to be Honest rather than harsh so they are welcome.

I know, I just feel like I can be too critical. Just ignore me on this bit then. xD

Sadly I haven't and now I really want to find that issue.

I could have sworn I read this in some tradeback volume...but I can't remember which...

[Milo v3]

Troll Bräu if you have the time can you do an overview of my class again. I've added several new abilities and techniques, most of the new ones being designed for above level 10 to incite people to continue with the class as that was a problem before.

[Kane0]

Updated my Theg entry.

Thought you ought to know

[Golden Ladybug]

Oh yeah, I finally found the time to go and write up my Crown Worm and Worm-Eaten Template.

[Tanuki Tales]

Here's another rundown for the Spider Blood Assassin.

Poison Use
You have "blade" instead of "weapon".

Assassin Techniques
Aranea Shell - This ability needs to be tagged.

Drain the Fluids - Do you intend this ability to work on Elementals? Otherwise you need to specify it doesn't since Elemental became a subtype of Outsider in Pathfinder.

Tarantula's Tool - Now, do they gain the same chompers of a Tarantula or just sharp teeth or what? Something I like to do when I make base classes that grant natural attacks is that they can grow and dismiss them (usually standard to grow, free to dismiss for me) so that they don't impede them socially. Otherwise, this ability is fine.

Unrelenting Grip - This ability needs to be tagged.

Weapon Training - While both are still subpar feats, this is definitely better.

Advanced Assassin Techniques
Mark of Kaine - *chuckles*
Anyways, the end of the last sentence looks like a copy/paste error.

Whispers of the Web
I would just word this as something like, "A Spider Blood Assassin of twelfth level or higher can converse with Arachnids as if they shared a language." and make it a Supernatural ability. Sp abilities generally require a direct activation, not a passive benefit.

Also, I would change this to only allow conversing with spiders and spider-like creatures, not arachnids. The issue arises where you'd require the players and DMs to know what is an arachnid and what isn't and that this ability would allow conversing with scorpions, ticks, mites, harvestmen and solifugae (though if you meant that, it's fine).

Nest of Fangs
You forgot "can" after "Assassin".

A permanent duration is a little much, even if you can only have one swarm at a time. This means the swarm will always be following you once summoned and you'll need to keep up with its day to day needs. I'd suggest changing the duration to a set amount of time (like an hour or two) and giving the option for dismissing the swarm prematurely.

And this is more just something I like to do while formatting abilities, but can I suggest making a [list][/list] of what the changes are?

A Thousand Eyes
As what spell?

Spider Thrall
I'm a little confused with this one. If the spider already has to be willing, what is the exact purpose of this ability? What do you and the thrall get out of it?


I really like how you've updated the class.




Alright, time for a rundown on the Theg.


Fluff
I must admit that my knowledge of the Realms is honestly very threadbare. I've read a few of the Drizzt novels and I have the campaign setting sitting around here somewhere, but that's about it.

Plowing on though, I really like how they've domesticated Ankhegs. For some reason those monsters have always been a favorite of me and mine and it's a nice touch.

Physical description
I'm guessing ceratinous/keratinous is a regional dialect thing?

Do they look like any beetle in particular or are they just generically beetle-like?

Relations
I think you meant "subduing".

Adventuers
It looks like you haven't finished writing this part. But I am curious on something; you make mention how a Theg separated from the collective withers and dies. Why is this different than an adventuring Theg?

Names
You have "o" instead of "to".

Language
You have "ar" instead of "at".

I think you meant "deeply" instead of "deep".

Racial Traits
Ability scores - Sturdiness and Memory would entail a Constitution and Wisdom bonus, not Strength and Intelligence.

Movement speed - There is none listed.

Visions - There is none listed.

Hivemind - I'd clear up how this is worded to make it more in line with other racial abilities. Also, I'd reword the positive so that as long as any Theg are within range of each other, they all have to be caught flat-footed/flanked for any one member to be caught flat-footed/flanked.

Ancient Netherese Patronage - You can make Knowledge checks untrained as long as the DC is 10 or lower, so you may want to clarify what this ability does exactly.

Aging
Well, they're certainly long lived for insects.

Height/Weight Table
The Weight Modifier is a static number in Pathfinder, it's not rolled.




Now let's do a rundown for the Worm-Eaten Collective.

Fluff
The second paragraph confuses me a little bit. Is the goal of this class to gather drones under their control or are they trying to destroy the Collective as a whole or what? And why is Rival capitalized?

Requirements
Alignment - I don't know about Chaotic, but this class definitely should require an Evil alignment. You're transforming creatures against their will into meat puppets for your own use and power and the spell required to enter the class has the "evil" tag.

Spells - I'd reword this to say something like, "Must be able to cast arcane spells (one of which is Fleshworm Infestation)."

Class Skills
There's only 1 f in Profession.

Table
You forgot to add in the class' name.

Spells Per Day
So if a Wizard 7/Cleric 1 took all 10 levels in this class then they could choose to progress their Cleric casting and cast as a Wizard 7/Cleric 9?

Worm-Eaten
What is the significance of 5 hp or less? Generally abilities like these require the target to be helpless, unconscious or asleep.

Three different will saves feels a little superfluous honestly. If there were varying results for failing or saving against different amounts of the saves I could see justification for 3 saves, but not as it is now.

You do realize that the scale of resisting Horde starts at 2 HD or more (with the first level of this class taken) and ends at 5 HD or more (at 20th level). Did you intend for the horde the character controls being mostly weak NPCs?

Is there a cap on the insight bonuses?

Hoo-boy. That there is a massive drawback to the class, especially with how weak your individual horde members are.

I think this ability needs a tag of some sort or a break down of what parts of Ex, Su, etc.

Natural Armor Increase
The fluff for this matches more with Damage Reduction than Natural Armor. And I'd personally rename it to be less literal and clunky, but that's just me.

Master Collective
This ability needs a tag. And you're really starting to get into some serious bookwork with this class now and I wonder if you may be breaking the action economy here with your high grade minionmancy.

Pain of the Horde
You should give a range for this ability.

Indomitable Soul
I think this needs an (Ex) tag since you didn't use the feat's name as the feature.

Sacrificial Centrality
This ability needs a tag and a range.

And..um...wow. This ability is really, really powerful. Game breakingly so. You drop the HP on a maximized size horde by just 10 and you're getting +20 Con, +20 Charisma, and +20 Caster level.

This really needs to be toned down.

Crown Worm
That is a 3.5 stat block. Could you please reformat it to the Pathfinder one I provided? Also, you may want to check it against the Monster Creation Guidelines that Paizo put out.

Template
Again, this is a 3.5 set up. I didn't remember to provide an example one when setting up the contest, but I'll add one in when I get the chance. In the mean time, please use the Lich as an example.


And done.

[Golden Ladybug]

Originally Posted by Troll Brau

Now let's do a rundown for the Worm-Eaten Collective.

Fluff
The second paragraph confuses me a little bit. Is the goal of this class to gather drones under their control or are they trying to destroy the Collective as a whole or what? And why is Rival capitalized?

The Goal of the class goes hand in hand with Drone/Horde Member gathering, and form their own collective. Destroying opposing Collectives (who compete for 'resources' and have a reason to threaten you, as they can take control of your drones easily after your death) is a sound strategy, but it isn't the main goal of the class.

And rival is capitalised because...I'll go change it

Requirements
Alignment - I don't know about Chaotic, but this class definitely should require an Evil alignment. You're transforming creatures against their will into meat puppets for your own use and power and the spell required to enter the class has the "evil" tag.

Chaotic comes from my understanding of the Alignment wheel, as the Chaotic Alignment covers freedom and independence in quite a distinct way, which is part of my idea for how this class functions; one of the requirements is to stave off the control of another Worm-Eaten Collective, so I thought that reflecting that with the required alignment requiring a free spirit.

However, your point is valid, and I think I might just change it to Evil. The Class certainly isn't Good, and it'd be toeing the deep end of Neutral at the very best of times.

Spells - I'd reword this to say something like, "Must be able to cast arcane spells (one of which is Fleshworm Infestation)."

That's me leaving a small loophole, as Fleshworm Infestation isn't a Sorc/Wiz only spell. If a Druid or a Cleric wanted to get into the class, they could, if they were willing to jump through some hoops.

Class Skills
There's only 1 f in Profession.

Table
You forgot to add in the class' name.

Spells Per Day
So if a Wizard 7/Cleric 1 took all 10 levels in this class then they could choose to progress their Cleric casting and cast as a Wizard 7/Cleric 9?

Indeed they could; I like classes that don't specify which type of casting they progress, as it leaves open the option to get strange things where they aren't expected.

Worm-Eaten
What is the significance of 5 hp or less? Generally abilities like these require the target to be helpless, unconscious or asleep.

Three different will saves feels a little superfluous honestly. If there were varying results for failing or saving against different amounts of the saves I could see justification for 3 saves, but not as it is now.

You do realize that the scale of resisting Horde starts at 2 HD or more (with the first level of this class taken) and ends at 5 HD or more (at 20th level). Did you intend for the horde the character controls being mostly weak NPCs?

Is there a cap on the insight bonuses?

Hoo-boy. That there is a massive drawback to the class, especially with how weak your individual horde members are.

I think this ability needs a tag of some sort or a break down of what parts of Ex, Su, etc.

I thought I edited out the 5HP part? My bad

The 5HP was a relic from the first draft of the class, which drew a lot on Greater Consumptive Field for the crunch, but I threw that out. I'll change that now.

The Three Saves does seem a bit off, in retrospect, but I didn't want to give the class a Save-or-Die as their main class feature; that's not the focus I was going for. What I was thinking about when writing this up was minionmancy. Now that you've brought it up, I don't really think it would work, and it would gimp the class a little.

I may raise the non-resistance cap a little, but I felt that having it uncapped would be a huge mistake. What happens when they fill their Control Pool with...Thunder Behemoths or something? Lots of lower powered creatures was my preference over a small group of ridiculously powerful ones. Still, I should look at that and tweak it a little, especially since I want to revise the Saves now.

The Cap is how many Worm-Eaten Creatures you can fit into the range of the ability, and once again I start to think how poorly balanced that is. I'll do something to fix that, or limit it more.

Its intentionally a Drawback, and its the cost for the huge control pool the class grants. They have to be coddle a bit, or else you take a penalty (maybe one that is too harsh, perhaps...I'll think about it). But, that just means putting them in combat has to be done with care. Equipping them all with a Bow and directing them to shoot at an enemy will solve problems. Even if they're only hitting on a twenty, the amount of arrows you've put in the air is astounding, especially if you start getting into the Teamwork Feats for archery.

Natural Armor Increase
The fluff for this matches more with Damage Reduction than Natural Armor. And I'd personally rename it to be less literal and clunky, but that's just me.

Reading over it, I think I should change it as well. Either rewrite the fluff or keep it and give them DR 10/-

Master Collective
This ability needs a tag. And you're really starting to get into some serious bookwork with this class now and I wonder if you may be breaking the action economy here with your high grade minionmancy.

No more than a Necromancer does, and they have more versatile options. They can fill their control pool with Thunder Behemoths all they want, and have to go through a lot less work to get them (kill, raise, rinse and repeat).

Worm-Eaten creatures are less likely to be useful in a straight up fight compared to Zombies or Skeletons, especially since they are both more fiddly to make, and are less durable. To make the archetypes comparable (as both a Necromancer and a Collective is concerned with Minionmancy) I've traded quality for quantity. You get a lot of minions out of this class.

I'll put a tag on it.

Pain of the Horde
You should give a range for this ability

Indomitable Soul
I think this needs an (Ex) tag since you didn't use the feat's name as the feature.

I'll get on that.

Sacrificial Centrality
This ability needs a tag and a range.

And..um...wow. This ability is really, really powerful. Game breakingly so. You drop the HP on a maximized size horde by just 10 and you're getting +20 Con, +20 Charisma, and +20 Caster level.

This really needs to be toned down.

How so? If you've filled the horde, the most likely maximum amount of hitpoints you're packing is the 5HD ones. Assuming average rolls and normal arrays, you're not going to be breaking 100HP. Lets say that the entire Horde is 5HD Barbarians, with 22 (16 Base, +6 Worm-Eaten) Con. They're going to have an average of 62 HP, which means that you can eke +16 Con, +16 Cha +8 CL out of them by killing them all. That is powerful, but you've just turned all your resources into a one hour buff.

The size of the horde means nothing, but the overall amount of HP that you can draw on. Every single creature needs to take 10 points of damage for you to get that buff, so the limit is decided by the Maximum HP of a creature in your Horde.

But, nonetheless, you have a point. I'll tone it down a bit.

Crown Worm
That is a 3.5 stat block. Could you please reformat it to the Pathfinder one I provided? Also, you may want to check it against the Monster Creation Guidelines that Paizo put out.

Template
Again, this is a 3.5 set up. I didn't remember to provide an example one when setting up the contest, but I'll add one in when I get the chance. In the mean time, please use the Lich as an example.

I spend too much time playing 3.5 and my brain has too many examples of statblocks and templates from it.

I'll get to work fixing that as soon as I have time...which will probably be tommorrow afternoon, so I'll leave it as is for now.

[Tanuki Tales]

Originally Posted by Golden Ladybug

The Goal of the class goes hand in hand with Drone/Horde Member gathering, and form their own collective. Destroying opposing Collectives (who compete for 'resources' and have a reason to threaten you, as they can take control of your drones easily after your death) is a sound strategy, but it isn't the main goal of the class.

And rival is capitalised because...I'll go change it

I thought that might be it, it's just the language seemed a little muddled to me.

Chaotic comes from my understanding of the Alignment wheel, as the Chaotic Alignment covers freedom and independence in quite a distinct way, which is part of my idea for how this class functions; one of the requirements is to stave off the control of another Worm-Eaten Collective, so I thought that reflecting that with the required alignment requiring a free spirit.

Ah, I can see that. But it could also be that an individual staved off their own control through a strict mental discipline and iron clad will and now wants to dominate and use the concept of the collective to their own ends as a powerful tool. So I could see Lawful WECs too.

[quote[However, your point is valid, and I think I might just change it to Evil. The Class certainly isn't Good, and it'd be toeing the deep end of Neutral at the very best of times.[/quote]

Yup.

That's me leaving a small loophole, as Fleshworm Infestation isn't a Sorc/Wiz only spell. If a Druid or a Cleric wanted to get into the class, they could, if they were willing to jump through some hoops.

Well, that's not the way it's worded right. Only Sorc/Wizs/other arcane casters can get in, not Druids or Clerics. You should probably word it like, "Must be able to cast 4th level Arcane Spells or be able to cast Fleshworm Infestation."

Indeed they could; I like classes that don't specify which type of casting they progress, as it leaves open the option to get strange things where they aren't expected.

There was some issue with that back in the day...but I can't remember what. Not that important, just wanted to clarify.

The Three Saves does seem a bit off, in retrospect, but I didn't want to give the class a Save-or-Die as their main class feature; that's not the focus I was going for. What I was thinking about when writing this up was minionmancy. Now that you've brought it up, I don't really think it would work, and it would gimp the class a little.

Well, it is a prestige class after all, so a Save or Suck wouldn't be out of line for it's main feature and I'm sure there's another way to set it up so a Save or Die could work.

I may raise the non-resistance cap a little, but I felt that having it uncapped would be a huge mistake. What happens when they fill their Control Pool with...Thunder Behemoths or something? Lots of lower powered creatures was my preference over a small group of ridiculously powerful ones. Still, I should look at that and tweak it a little, especially since I want to revise the Saves now.

Well, you don't need to uncap it entirely, but raising it a little more wouldn't be out of line imo.

Its intentionally a Drawback, and its the cost for the huge control pool the class grants. They have to be coddle a bit, or else you take a penalty (maybe one that is too harsh, perhaps...I'll think about it). But, that just means putting them in combat has to be done with care. Equipping them all with a Bow and directing them to shoot at an enemy will solve problems. Even if they're only hitting on a twenty, the amount of arrows you've put in the air is astounding, especially if you start getting into the Teamwork Feats for archery.

But that might be too large a drawback though. I'd revise it so that a fellow high level caster or a decent dragon doesn't just ignore you, toast a chunk of your horde and laugh as your charisma takes a major plummet.

And can you choose the feats these guys have?

No more than a Necromancer does, and they have more versatile options. They can fill their control pool with Thunder Behemoths all they want, and have to go through a lot less work to get them (kill, raise, rinse and repeat).

But can a Necromancer have 460 minions under their control in Pathfinder?

Worm-Eaten creatures are less likely to be useful in a straight up fight compared to Zombies or Skeletons, especially since they are both more fiddly to make, and are less durable. To make the archetypes comparable (as both a Necromancer and a Collective is concerned with Minionmancy) I've traded quality for quantity. You get a lot of minions out of this class.

Eh, these guys are better than Zombies in my opinion and might be better than skeletons. They get a +6 Con bump and Fast Healing 1, that's pretty much ahead of them. I mean, DR is nice, but FH is nicer.

snip

Sorry, the "maximum size horde" bit was included when I misread it. The size of the horde isn't important.

My math was a little off and I can't remember which creatures I was using as measuring sticks (might have been some dragon or ooze), but yeah, that's still a big buff for little investment, even as a capstone for a prestige class. That's more like a level 20 capstone for a base class thing, imo.

I spend too much time playing 3.5 and my brain has too many examples of statblocks and templates from it.

I'll get to work fixing that as soon as I have time...which will probably be tommorrow afternoon, so I'll leave it as is for now.

Look forward to it!

[Kane0]

I have updated the Theg, minor fixes based on PEACH.

[Tanuki Tales]

Originally Posted by Kane0

I have updated the Theg, minor fixes based on PEACH.

Alright, let's give another run down on the Theg and we'll be jumping right to the racial traits.

Ability Scores
Hardiness is still more a language choice for Constitution, not Strength.

Vision Modes
None are listed. Does this mean that the Theg see as humans?

Hivemind
You still need to clean this up. It's mechanically sound but looks really clunky in its set up.

Ancient Netherese Patronage
This is worded clunky and it's hard to really understand what it does. I'd suggest wording it like, "Theg receive a bonus on Knowledge skill checks equal to one quarter their total hit dice and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained". That's half as good as the Bard's Bardic Knowledge class feature and should be all right as a racial class feature.

What is the "Improved Racial Familiarity" feat? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

And what does the historian magnet bit have to do with anything mechanically?

Favored Class
There are no racial favored classes in Pathfinder.

Height/Weight table
The weight modifier is the same thing as the weight multiplier. You roll the height modifier and multiply it by the weight modifier to get how many pounds to add onto the base weight.

[Golden Ladybug]

Okay, did some tinkering and I think the Collective is looking a bit better.

I've messed with Control Cap a bit, bumped it up to 1/2 Character Level, but in return, I've limited Sacrificial Centrality and the other Horde Powers.

I've changed the Natural Armor into DR, which is still kinda nice, and also edited the Worm-Eaten Template.

Oh, and you don't get to choose the feats of whoever you take control of by default (if you want to ask you DM if you can mess around with feats, then go nuts). Normally, they'll keep whatever feats they had before.

[Kane0]

OK, I fixed up the Theg racial abilities some more.
I split some abilites and clarified them all, should be cleaner now, still not sure about Ancient Netherese Heritage though.