Ghost Rider 3.5 Base Class (PEACH) Probably low-mid tier 2

Cogidubnus · 04-06-2012, 09:59 AM

Ghost Rider Base Class

Concept: I’m massive fan of the Ghost Rider comics (although I found the films rather underwhelming). I recently built a character who could just about imitate the Ghost Rider’s combat style using Warlock and Hellfire Warlock, with a bunch of magic items thrown in, but there were a bunch of problems with it, not least that one Disjunction reduced him to little more than a slightly-undead looking Hellfire Warlock with none of the thematic abilities. So, I decided to make a base class instead of revising for my end of year exams.
Increasing the power of the class as it levels is actually very thematic for a Ghost Rider, as Riders have different degrees of power depending on their connection the power they wield. As such, I am going to try to incorporate almost every power seen used by a Ghost Rider in the comics from 2005 onwards, as well as a couple of touches from the films and then flesh things out with divine-punishment-themed abilities. If there’s anything you think I should add, please feel free to suggest it and I’ll consider it.
One other note. I almost always save DCs and most other abilities off of HD rather than Class Level, both because abilities ought to remain useful if you multiclass and because if you go into Epic levels you don’t want to be saddled with taking levels in a class with no Epic progression in order for your abilities to keep up. The number of uses for abilities is usually based off of class level to avoid small dips granting big benefits.

- Two Ghost Riders serving different masters do battle

“You’re just another power-mad wannabe who desperately needs his ass kicked. And that’s exactly what Ghost Riders are for.”
Ghost Rider – Heaven’s On Fire; If You Can’t Lower Heaven, Raise Hell.

Ghost Riders are made, not trained. Although a potential Rider may train for the role, they have no guarantee of being chosen. Only those with the greatest of knowledge know the truth behind the creation of Riders and the source of their powers. However, each Rider’s power stems from a divine source, either Good or Evil, and this choice should be made as part of character creation, even if the divinity providing the power isn’t named or is unknown to the character. Ghost Riders wield hellfire and other tools of divine retribution against who “deserve” it in the eyes of their creators, and in such a way resemble Paladins and Blackguards. As their name suggests, Riders generally have a characteristic mount, which, although limited in how directly dangerous it can be, allows the Rider far greater manoeuvrability in combat. Their appearance in battle is that of a flaming skeleton, but they may revert back to their normal forms at any time.

With a successful Knowledge: Religion check, a character may discern the following about Ghost Riders. Normal people are generally unaware of the existence or nature of the Riders.

DC 15: Riders are agents of a higher power sent to punish that power’s enemies. They are very rare, no god is likely to have a great host in their service.
DC 20: A Rider is selected by an agent of their creator for the role, and has little or no choice in their transformation. The Rider is constantly encouraged to punish their creator’s enemies, and most find this a compulsion.
DC 25: The Rider has to be personally created by the divinity that has chosen them.
DC 30: A Ghost Rider’s power is in fact a tiny fragment of the divine power of the god that created them, and any increase in a Rider’s powers is simply a result of their learning to better connect to and harness this power. There are those who fear that a Ghost Rider could tap almost unlimited power, for a mortal, if they were to fully connect with the divine fragment within them.

Abilities: Several of the Ghost Rider’s powers affect weapons they are wielding. As such, Ghost Rider’s benefit from a either a high Strength or Dexterity to allow them to hit with weapons. Good Constitution helps melee-based Riders, and a good Charisma score increases the Save DCs for the Rider’s abilities. It is common for Evil Ghost Riders to have low Wisdom, as they generally agree happy to trade their souls for a Rider’s power.
“My name is Johnny Blaze. I’m a world-famous stunt cyclist who holds nine Guinness World Records. I sold my soul to the devil without even considering it might not work out. In other words...yeah. I am that foolish.”
Ghost Rider – Apocalypse Soon; Part 1.

Races: Ghost Riders can be of any race, however, they are often of races favoured by their creating deity, because a deity is more likely to choose a character if they feel their goals are closely aligned.

Alignment: Any. It is common for Ghost Riders to share their deity’s alignment on the Good-Evil axis, but Neutral Ghost Riders are encountered in the service of Good or Evil gods, as deities pick those they think will make the best servants, not necessarily their most devout followers. Riders are, after all, given little choice. It is not unheard of for a Rider to be of an opposed alignment to his creator, but this is very rare and generally an attempt by an Evil divinity to manipulate a Good character and worsen him. If such a Rider discovers the true nature of his patron, he will at the least struggle against the compulsion to do their will, or even turn the power they have been given against its source, if they are strong enough.

Starting Gold: 4d4 x 10 (100 gp)

Starting Age: There is no set starting age for Ghost Riders – they are selected at the point in their life when they are most likely to be useful to a divinity.

Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Craft, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Arcana, Religion and The Planes, Listen, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Tumble.

Skill Points per level: 4 + Int modifier. Ghost Riders perform a variety of seemingly-impossible tricks from the backs of their mounts, tricks which require an almost inhuman amount of skill.

Save DCs: Unless otherwise noted, the save DCs for all of the Ghost Rider's abilities and SLAs are 10 + 1/2 HD + Charisma modifier.

Ghost Rider

Level	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special
1st	+1	+2	+0	+2	A Side Chooses You, Ghost Rider, Hellfire Steed, Detect Alignment
2nd	+2	+3	+0	+3	Weapon of Vengeance, Born Rider,
3rd	+3	+3	+1	+3	Unstoppable Vengeance, Biblical In Scope
4th	+4	+4	+1	+4	Improved Weapon of Vengeance, Hellfire Blast
5th	+5	+4	+1	+4	Bring the Spectacle, Fire Resistance
6th	+6	+5	+2	+5	Born Rider, Hellfire-Infused Weapon, Hellfire-Infused Item
7th	+7	+5	+2	+5	Improved Hellfire Blast
8th	+8	+6	+2	+6	Regeneration, Unnatural Speed (standard)
9th	+9	+6	+3	+6	Curse of the Rider, Increased Resistance
10th	+10	+7	+3	+7	Born Rider, Biblical in Scope, Bring the Spectacle,
11th	+11	+7	+3	+7	Penance Stare, Hunt the Wicked
12th	+12	+8	+4	+8	Unnatural Speed (move), Undying
13th	+13	+8	+4	+8	Path of Vengeance
14th	+14	+9	+4	+9	Born Rider, Greater Curse of the Rider
15th	+15	+9	+5	+9	Bring the Spectacle,
16th	+16	+10	+5	+10	Unnatural Speed (swift), Power of Grief
17th	+17	+10	+5	+10	Mercy’s Kiss,
18th	+18	+11	+6	+11	Born Rider,
19th	+19	+11	+6	+11	Sin Burns Away
20th	+20	+12	+6	+12	Biblical in Scope, Bring the Spectacle, And Vengeance Takes Its Place

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, one exotic weapon of the player’s choice. Light and medium armour.

A Side Chooses You: When a character takes his first level in this class, decide whether your Ghost Rider’s power is Good or Evil. Even if the Ghost Rider is created by a Neutral god (which is rare), the Ghost Rider’s power is still either Good or Evil. This choice changes the effectiveness of several of the Ghost Rider’s abilities, and decides the kind of actions he will consider sins worthy of punishment. The text of this class assumes you choose Good – simply reverse Good and Evil in any abilities that specify how they affect a particular alignment.

Ghost Rider (Su): In their human forms, most Ghost Riders are little more than mortal warriors. However, their Ghost Rider is a far more fearsome opponent. From 1st level, a Ghost Rider may transform as a free action. Unless otherwise noted, a Ghost Rider’s abilities only function while he is transformed. While transformed, the Rider appears as a skeleton of his species with hellfire flames instead of flesh. He still functions as a normal member of his species in all ways – e.g. special movement modes, regeneration, etc. While transformed, the character is at least partially subject to the demands of his Ghost Rider – the vocal embodiment of the power he carries – which will push him to hunt those it considers worth of punishment. This is purely a role-playing aspect and does not force the player to take any actions they do not want to, but it is encouraged that you engage with this aspect of the character and occasionally do something rash for a better role-playing experience.
However, whenever a Good Ghost Rider is subject to a Compulsion effect, if that effect is being used to order them to kill an Evil target, they must make two saves to resist the effect and are affected if they fail either.

Hellfire Steed: From first level, a Ghost Rider gains the services of a Hellfire Steed. This mount can have any appearance the Ghost Rider likes – it can be a bear, a horse, or even a construct – but its feet/other modes of movement will be shrouded in hellfire, its eyes will burn with hellfire and its body will often be covered in patches of hellfire. It’s called a Hellfire Steed for a reason. All Hellfire Steeds have the same statistics, however. They function exactly like a Phantom Steed (as the spell), cast with a Caster Level of 3 or the Ghost Rider’s class level, whichever is higher. If the Steed loses all its hit points, it reappears adjacent to the Ghost Rider after two rounds. The Hellfire Steed acts as the Ghost Rider wishes at all times, and, unlike a Phantom Steed, may bear riders other than the Ghost Rider if the Rider orders it to. This ability may be used even when the Ghost Rider is not transformed, but appears as a normal creature of the kind chosen by the Ghost Rider in this case. A Ghost Rider may summon his Hellfire Steed to him as a standard action 1/day. If the Ghost Rider is in an area blocking extra-dimensional travel, such as a Forbiddance effect, the mount appears at the edge of the effect and then proceeds to move towards the Ghost Rider as fast as possible.

Detect Alignment (Su): The Ghost Rider automatically knows whether any creature he sees is Good or Evil, and how strong their aura is. This ability functions even when the Ghost Rider is not transformed.

Weapon of Vengeance (Su): A Ghost Rider’s weapon is more than mundane – it is a tool of divine vengeance. Once per encounter per 2 class levels, before making an attack action with a weapon, natural attack or unarmed strike, the Ghost Rider may infuse his weapon with this power. Any attacks from that action which hit deal an additional 1d6 of damage, and all damage by the weapon is treated as hellfire damage. Hellfire is magical and ignores fire resistance and damage reduction.

Born Rider: Ghost Riders have a unique connection with their Hellfire Steeds. At 2nd level, and every 4 levels after that, select one of the abilities from the list below.

Spoiler

Pounce: When the Ghost Rider charges while riding his Hellfire Steed, he may make a full attack at the end of the charge action.

Gravity Is A Weapon: Whenever the Ghost Rider charges an opponent from above while riding his Hellfire Steed, he deals 1.5x the damage he normally would. This only applies to damage from the Ghost Rider’s weapon, strength bonus and any bonus damage from Power Attack, not to any bonus damage from magical effects, Sneak Attack, the Weapon of Vengeance class feature or similar types of bonus damage. The Ghost Rider may charge an opponent from above either by flying above them (or a similar method), or by performing a Jump check as part of a charge action that allows him to rise at least 10ft above the ground. This check always uses the Ghost Rider’s Jump check modifier.

Ride What You Will: The Ghost Rider may treat any mount he rides as his Hellfire Steed, and they gain all the benefits a Hellfire Steed would (including extra movement speed and types of movement as per the Phantom Steed spell). However, if such a mount is killed, it does not reappear after two rounds. Instead, a copy made of Hellfire appears, which functions as the standard Hellfire Steed class feature and has none of the properties of the original creature. This includes being unable to attack. The true mount reappears at dawn the following day.

Ride Like Hell: The Ghost Rider’s Hellfire Steed’s movement is now equal to 30 feet per caster level and has no maximum speed. When the Hellfire Steed acquires the Air Walk ability, it may use it for up to 3 rounds at a time, and when it acquires a fly speed, its manoeuvrability improves to Perfect.

Deathly Resilience: The Ghost Rider’s Hellfire Steed now has an AC equal to the Ghost Rider’s AC or its own AC, whichever is higher, and gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC for every 3 ranks in the Ride skill the Ghost Rider possesses. In addition, the Hellfire Steed shares all of the Ghost Rider’s immunities and resistances, and may use his saving throw modifiers instead of its own.

Lightning Strike: When the Ghost Rider charges while riding his Hellfire Steed, he may attack at any point during his movement, and then continue moving in whatever direction he chooses, including straight through his target if he so desires. The Ghost Rider can use any remaining movement from his charge action, but the distance he may move after attacking his target may not exceed the result of a Tumble check made with the Ghost Rider’s Tumble modifier x10. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity from the target of the charge, but it does from other enemies, and the Ghost Rider must end his movement in an unoccupied square.

Inspire Awe (minimum ECL 6): Once per day per 6 HD, the Ghost Rider may command its mount (a free action) to use Charm Monster as an SLA using the Ghost Rider’s abilities save DC (a standard action for the mount). Creatures of the same type as the creature the Hellfire Steed is currently imitating (e.g. animal for a Horse) take a -4 penalty of saves to resist this ability.

Intransient (minimum ECL 10): While riding his Hellfire Steed, a Ghost Rider may go ethereal for 1 minute per HD per day. He may also gain the benefits of a Greater Blink spell for 1 round per day per HD.

Unstoppable Vengeance: The Ghost Rider is a near-invulnerable agent of vengeance, and most weapons simply fail to harm them. At 3rd level, the Ghost Rider gains DR/- equal to half its HD. The Ghost Rider also gains SR equal to 6+its HD.

Biblical in Scope (Su): To delay a Ghost Rider’s mission is to invite divine punishment rarely seen in modern times, and to be the Rider’s target is a guarantee of it. At 3rd level the Ghost Rider selects one of the afflictions from the list below.

Spoiler

At 10th level, the Ghost Rider may choose either one plague from the list below, or two of the afflictions from the previous list.

Spoiler

At 20th level, the Ghost Rider gains access to either one of the dooms from the list below, or two plagues or afflictions from the previous two lists.

Spoiler

Flood: The Ghost Rider may cause torrential rain to pour upon an area up to 10 square miles. He must be able to see at least part of the area to be affected. Over the course of 5 days this area becomes totally flooded until it is all at least 10 feet underwater. Rivers may burst their banks and wash away bridges earlier, and lower areas will be flooded sooner and much deeper. The casualties from such a flood are usually severe, and between the loss of life and the damage to the land and buildings, can leave a city uninhabited as its few surviving occupants decide never to return. People may leave the area before the rain ends, but most are unlikely to realise the danger the rain poses until most escape routes have been blocked. After the 5 days have passed, the rain stops and the water drains away. This can have devastating effects on areas that are more low-lying than the target area, as the flood pours down onto them. This ability is usable once per month.

Storm of Destruction: The Ghost Rider may target a single city, or a town and its surrounding farmland that he can see with a Storm of Destruction as a full-round action. This functions as the Control Weather spell, with a duration of 48 hours and a different target area, with the following exceptions. The effects created are not affected by season or location. If a thunderstorm is created, lightning strikes one creature and one structure per round, dealing 10d8 damage and potentially lighting structures on fire. Thunderstorms may be accompanied by rain, tornado, high winds, snow or a sandstorm (though only in a desert environment).
The Ghost Rider, his allies, and any structures they may be in are never effected by any negative effects of the Storm of Destruction. This ability may be used once per month.

Divine Fire: By taking two full-round actions, the Ghost Rider may cause Hellfire to rain down upon an area of up to 2 square miles. He must be able to see at least part of the area to be affected. The fire does 10d6 damage a round to everything within the area, and persists for one week or until every creature and building within the area is dead or destroyed, or leaves the area, whichever comes first. This ability is usable once per month.

The Ghost Rider may end any effects created by its Biblical in Scope class feature as a free action. If the Ghost Rider dies, all effects created by Biblical in Scope end immediately.

Improved Weapon of Vengeance (Su): From 4th level, the Ghost Rider’s Weapon of Vengeance class feature deals an extra 1d6 of damage for each 2 HD the Rider possesses, instead of simply an extra 1d6.

Hellfire Blast (Su): At 4th level the Ghost Rider acquires the ability to fire a ball of Hellfire as a standard action. This is a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 80 feet and deals 3d6 Hellfire damage. This damage improves by 1d6 for every 2 HD past 4 the Ghost Rider possesses.

Bring the Spectacle (Su): At 5th level, and every 5 levels after that, the Ghost Rider selects one ability from the list below.

Spoiler

Chains of Guilt: As a standard action, the Ghost Rider may target an enemy within 60 feet with this ability. Chains sprout from the Rider’s chest and throat, entangling the target and pinning them. The Ghost Rider must succeed on a ranged touch attack. If this hits, he may make a number of grapple checks equal to the number of attacks he can make in a full attack. He always counts as being the same size as the creature he is attempting to grapple. These grapple checks may only be used to grapple the target, to break the target’s pin on another creature, and to pin the target creature. After this ability has been used, the target remains wrapped in chains until it breaks their grapple. If a target is pinned by this ability and the target later succeeds in breaking the pin but not the grapple, the chains make a grapple check at the start of the Rider’s turn (using the same Grapple modifier as when the ability was first used) to pin the target again. After this ability has been used, the chains detach from the Ghost Rider, who is free to act and move as normal and does not count as grappling.

Hellfire Wings: The Rider sprouts two wings made of pure hellfire. These grant the Rider a fly speed equal to his land speed, and can be used to make natural attacks. They deal 1d8 Hellfire damage each for a medium sized creature. This ability may be activated or suppressed as a move action.

Burning Roar: The Ghost Rider gains a Hellfire breath weapon, usable as a standard action. This is a 30 foot cone of Hellfire that deals 1d6 points of damage per level. The cone increases in size by 5 feet for every two HD the Ghost Rider has. This ability never harms any of the Ghost Rider’s allies that are within its area of effect, but takes 1d3 rounds to recharge before it can be used again.

Symbol of Wrath: The Ghost Rider may summon a burning symbol made of pure Hellfire as a standard action. This may take the shape of either the holy symbol or the favoured weapon of the deity that created them. Once summoned, the symbol accompanies the Rider until commanded to attack a target (a free action). The symbol flies towards the target, attempting to impale it upon a spike formed from part of the symbol. The Rider makes a ranged touch attack. If it succeeds, the target takes 1d6 Hellfire damage per two class levels, is knocked back by 5 feet per level and must succeed on a Fortitude save or be knocked prone. If the target hits anything along the way, the movement stops and both the target and whatever it struck take 1d6 damage for each 5ft of unused movement. Once the target has stopped moving, either because it struck an object or because it has moved the maximum distance, the symbol explodes, dealing a further 1d6 Hellfire damage per two class levels to the target and every enemy within 15 feet. This ability is usable once per day per 4 HD.

Fearsome Aspect: Any enemy looking at the Ghost Rider must succeed on a Will Save or become panicked. This ability affects undead, even though they are usually immune to fear. Once a creature has succeeded on a save against this ability, it cannot be affected by the same Ghost Rider’s Fearsome Aspect for 24 hours.

Hellfire Duplicates (minimum character level 15th): The Ghost Rider creates four duplicates of itself as a full-round action, made of pure Hellfire. They have the same equipment, class levels and abilities as the Ghost Rider, except that they do not possess the Hellfire Steed ability, the Biblical in Scope ability or the Bring the Spectacle ability. Each duplicate has maximum hit points equal to ¼ of the Ghost Rider’s hit points at the time of creation. These duplicates follow simple orders, such as who to attack, but not a complex strategy, and will always attempt to attack enemies as fast as possible. They persist for 5 rounds. This ability is usable once per day.

Fire Resistance (Ex): At 5th level, the Ghost Rider gains Fire Resistance equal to half his HD and cannot be harmed by Hellfire attacks.

Hellfire-Infused Weapon (Su): From 6th level, the Ghost Rider gains the ability to infuse the weapons of its allies with Hellfire as a standard action. The targeted weapon deals an extra 1d6 Hellfire damage per 7 HD and counts as magical and of the same alignment as the Ghost Rider’s power. This ability is usable once per day per 4 HD and lasts for 24 hours. This does not stack with the Weapon of Vengeance class feature.

Hellfire-Infused Item (Su): From 6th level, the Ghost Rider can infuse its and its allies equipment with Hellfire as a standard action. The Rider can infuse one item per 3 HD per day. When the target item is being worn or carried, the bearer gains Fire Resistance equal to half the Ghost Rider’s HD. In addition, when the bearer is struck in melee, they can discharge the Hellfire Infusion to deal damage to their attacker equal to 1d6 per 2 HD the Ghost Rider possesses. This ability lasts 24 hours or until discharged.

Improved Hellfire Blast (Su): At 7th level, the Ghost Rider’s Hellfire Blast improves. The Rider may choose to either give the Hellfire Blast a radius of 5ft per 2 HD (making a touch attack against each enemy within the area) or to force an opponent hit by it to pass a Fortitude save or be nauseated. This choice is made when the Rider gains this ability and may not be changed.

Regeneration (Ex): Ghost Riders are almost impossible to kill, resisting even the most hideous of attacks as though they never happened. At 8th level, the Ghost Rider gains Regeneration equal to ¼ of its HD. This regeneration is bypassed by magical weapons with either the Good or Evil alignment type. However, should the Ghost Rider become unconscious due to its non-lethal damage exceeding its current hit points, it reverts back to its normal form, still unconscious and helpless, and without DR, SR or Regeneration. Any lost limbs regrow in 1d6 rounds.

Unnatural Speed (Su): Ghost Riders don’t move like mortal creatures, and can leap across the battlefield in the blink of an eye. At 8th level, Ghost Riders gain the ability to instantly move up to 200ft + 10 feet per HD as a standard action. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.. This may be used once per day per 2 HD. At 12th level, this ability improves, requiring merely a move action. At 16th level it improves again, requiring only a swift action. When the Rider disappears and reappears, they either step through a doorway made of Hellfire or vanish and reform in a cloud of black smoke.

Curse of the Rider: Plagues and curses are a staple of divine punishment. From 9th level, the Ghost Rider gains Bestow Curse as a SLA, usable 1/day per 3 HD.

Improved Resistance (Ex): At 9th level, the Ghost Rider becomes even more resistant. Either double the Ghost Rider’s Fire Resistance or gain resistance to either acid, cold, electric or sonic equal to ½ HD.

Penance Stare (Su): One of the Ghost Rider’s signature moves, the Ghost Rider grabs an offender and stares deep into their soul, inflicting on them all the pain they have caused others and the consequences of all the wrongs they have done the Rider’s creator. This ability is usable once per encounter from 11th level. To use this ability, a Ghost Rider must succeed on a melee touch attack against a target. If this attack fails, the Ghost Rider does not expend a use of this ability. If it succeeds, the target must make both a Will save and a Fortitude save. If it fails both, it dies and its body is reduced to ash. This is a Death effect, but affects Undead, despite their usually being immune to death effects. Even if the target saves against this effect or is immune, they take 2d6 non-lethal damage per HD the Ghost Rider possesses unless they succeed on a second Will save, or half that if they are of Good alignment (or Evil if the Ghost Rider’s power is Evil).
At 15th level, this ability improves. Targets now no longer get to make a Fortitude save to avoid death, only a Will save.

The Penance Stare may instead be used on a helpless target, in which case it has an alternate effect. The Ghost Rider does not need to make a touch attack to begin using the Penance Stare. The target creature makes two saves as usual, but with a -4 penalty, and if they die as a result of failing the first or of the hit point damage inflicted by failing the second, then they can only be resurrected if a Wish or Miracle is first used to heal the damage done to their soul.

Hunt the Wicked (Su): A Ghost Rider is able to open Hellfire portals to chase down those who are deserving of punishment. At 11th level, the Rider can create a Hellfire portal which stays open for one round and through which it and up to one ally per HD can pass. This portal functions as either a Teleport or Plane Shift spell, as the Rider chooses. At 15th level, the portal improves to function as either Greater Teleport or Greater Plane Shift. This ability is usable once per day per 4 HD.

Undying (Ex): From 12th level, the Ghost Rider becomes even harder to kill. They may ignore one failed save against a Death effect per 4 HD each day. In addition, if they fail a save after this number is used up, they may elect to instead take non-lethal damage equal to their maximum hit points, become unconscious and transform back into a mortal.

Path of Vengeance (Ex): From 13th level, the Ghost Rider may, while mounted on its Hellfire Steed, elect to trample a Path of Vengeance, burning opponents all around with their Hellfire. As a full-round action, the Rider moves up to its Steed’s maximum speed in a straight line. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity and may pass through occupied squares, but must end in an unoccupied square. Any enemy in the Rider’s path, or in squares adjacent to it, takes 1d6 Hellfire damage per 2 HD, with a reflex save for half damage.

Greater Curse of the Rider: At 14th level, the Rider’s Bestow Curse SLA improves to Greater Bestow Curse.

Power of Grief (Su): From 16th level, a Ghost Rider may detonate the force of their vengeance to destroy all the foes around them. This ability affects all enemies within 50ft of the Ghost Rider. Each enemy must succeed on a Fortitude save or be stunned for 1d6 rounds, is knocked back by 5ft for every HD the Ghost Rider has and suffers 1d6 Hellfire damage for each HD the Ghost Rider has. This ability is usable once per day per 10 HD.

Mercy’s Kiss (Su): From 17th level, a Ghost Rider can use an attack very similar to their Penance Stare. As part of any melee attack or melee touch attack, the Ghost Rider can cause a target to experience the sorrow of their victims. A target affected by this ability must make a Will Save every round or be rendered Helpless for the duration of the effect. This ability lasts for one round per 4 HD and is usable once per day per 5 HD the Ghost Rider possesses.

Sin Burns Away (Su): At 19th level, a Ghost Rider is able to channel the pure hatred of the power within them for all it sees as evil. The Ghost Rider may target one creature within 100ft with this ability. If the target fails a Will save, the Rider may force them to behave as an alignment of the Rider’s choice for 2 weeks per HD. In addition, the target always views the Rider in the best possible light and does its best to assist them. This ability is usable once per day per 10 HD.

And Vengeance Takes Its Place: The Ghost Rider is the fury of innocence trampled and sullied. It is justice in its most ancient form. By 20th level, the Ghost Rider has realised that vision. The Rider gains immunity to Fire, ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain. All of their supernatural abilities and SLAs become Extraordinary effects. In addition, once per encounter, the Ghost Rider can force an opponent who succeeds on a save against one of its abilities to re-roll that save.

Empedocles · 04-06-2012, 10:34 AM

I like this. I like this a lot. It's high damage for a melee character but it's not at all broken and it can be versatile, but you need to be creative to have a lot of tricks. Very cool, and it deserves a full PEACH. However, I'm only evaluating the abilities from a mechanical standpoint. I might suggest changes that go against the comic, in which case feel free to correct me

...Without further ado, PEACHING time:

Chassis (Saves, BAB, HD): Good, although I feel like good reflex is more in line with this character than the good fortitude save. That's not really important though.

Skills: He doesn't really have enough skills to warrant 6 skill points. Drop it down to 4. Otherwise, the skill list looks good.

A Side Chooses You: Flavorful.

Ghost Rider: I've seen the movies, and I'd suggest changing the activation time to a move action, and then a free action later on as he becomes more in tune with the spirit thingy. Also, does this have a duration? If not, there's nothing to stop me from staying in ghost rider form. I'd suggest 1 min/level. Also, it's not clear what abilities he can and cannot use when in ghost rider form.

Hellfire Steed: Awesome. I'd suggest upping the base speed from 30 to 50 feet., but otherwise I couldn't have thought of a better way to implement the whole flaming motorcycle thing.

Detect Alignment: Cool.

Weapon of Vengeance: Cool but badly worded. Is this ability expended if I miss? Can I choose to activate it after I confirm a hit? It seems like infusing a weapon with hellfire should take place at the beginning of the attack (like a paladin's smite) and you need to specify that. The improved weapon of vengeance is a good advancement.

Born Rider: Cool. Gave him some versatility. I approve.

Unstoppable Vengeance: Very strong, but cool and not really OP.

Biblical in Scope: Awesome in the sense of awe inspiring. I like these a lot.

Hellfire Blast: Yay! A ranged attack! One thing though. Is the damage fire damage? Or is it like half fire damage and half holy damage?

Bring the Spectacle: These are my favorite abilities he gets, which is saying something.

Hellfire Infused Weapon/Item:Giving him some buffs. I kind of like it...

Regeneration: Whew! Powerful...

Unnatural Speed: Nasty good. I'd say bring the range down to 100 feet plus 10 feet for every 2 HD he possesses.

Curse of the Rider: Not too good but very flavorful.

Penance Stare: Death effect? At 11th level? This is a bit much.

Not much to say about the last few levels. The biggest issue is clarifying what I can use in hellfire form and what I can't use out of it, and making it so I can't just be in hellfire form perpetually.

Cogidubnus · 04-06-2012, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Skills: He doesn't really have enough skills to warrant 6 skill points. Drop it down to 4. Otherwise, the skill list looks good.

My original plan used skills more than the final version, so I agree with you.

Quote:

Ghost Rider: I've seen the movies, and I'd suggest changing the activation time to a move action, and then a free action later on as he becomes more in tune with the spirit thingy. Also, does this have a duration? If not, there's nothing to stop me from staying in ghost rider form. I'd suggest 1 min/level. Also, it's not clear what abilities he can and cannot use when in ghost rider form.

"Unless otherwise noted, a Ghost Rider’s abilities only function while he is transformed."
The only real exception is the Hellfire Steed, because the Rider ought to have a mount that changes with him. This is also why it's a free action to change and why there's no duration. If you're not in Ghost Rider form, you basically have no class features. You are free to walk around as a skeleton wreathed in flame the entire time, the option not to is basically an aesthetic one.

Quote:

Hellfire Steed: Awesome. I'd suggest upping the base speed from 30 to 50 feet., but otherwise I couldn't have thought of a better way to implement the whole flaming motorcycle thing.

I'm glad you liked the implementation. The base speed is actually 100 feet (20ft x Caster level), which I'm considering lowering, it's just Phantom Steed normally has a minimum CL of 5.

Quote:

Weapon of Vengeance: Cool but badly worded. Is this ability expended if I miss? Can I choose to activate it after I confirm a hit? It seems like infusing a weapon with hellfire should take place at the beginning of the attack (like a paladin's smite) and you need to specify that. The improved weapon of vengeance is a good advancement.

I'll go work on the wording. It is indeed supposed to work similarly to a Paladin's smite. Improved Weapon of Vengeance was only really introduced, rather than having HD-based damage from level 2, to prevent 2 level dips giving a big damage boost.

Quote:

Hellfire Blast: Yay! A ranged attack! One thing though. Is the damage fire damage? Or is it like half fire damage and half holy damage?

I will make sure it's clear - all things that mention Hellfire damage are Hellfire as it is described in the Weapon of Vengeance class feature, which is the same as the Hellfire described in Hellfire warlock.

Quote:

Regeneration: Whew! Powerful...

There is this wonderful scene in the comics where Lucifer pulls of the Rider's leg and starts beating him up with it. He grows a new one and then impales Lucifer on a flaming cross. I felt Regeneration only fair. In fact, that reminds me, we need a clause about rapid limb regrowth.

Quote:

Unnatural Speed: Nasty good. I'd say bring the range down to 100 feet plus 10 feet for every 2 HD he possesses.

I will consider changing it. It was based off Dimension Door originally, but of course, Dimension Door stops you acting once you use it.

Quote:

Penance Stare: Death effect? At 11th level? This is a bit much.

This was a tricky one. It's a signature move of the Ghost Riders, but Death effects are very strong. I might introduce a Will and Fort save, like Phantasmal Killer, and then have that vanish at higher levels.

Ed:

Quote:

Chassis (Saves, BAB, HD): Good, although I feel like good reflex is more in line with this character than the good fortitude save. That's not really important though.

Ghost Rider, especially in the comics, shows a remarkable inability to doge anything. He just takes it on the chin and keeps coming, hence my decision to give good Fort rather than Reflex saves. There's one scene where he manages to fail to avoid the Hulk jumping off the Empire State Building onto his head...

Empedocles · 04-06-2012, 11:13 AM

Speaking in bold

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cogidubnus

My original plan used skills more than the final version, so I agree with you.

"Unless otherwise noted, a Ghost Rider’s abilities only function while he is transformed."
The only real exception is the Hellfire Steed, because the Rider ought to have a mount that changes with him. This is also why it's a free action to change and why there's no duration. If you're not in Ghost Rider form, you basically have no class features. You are free to walk around as a skeleton wreathed in flame the entire time, the option not to is basically an aesthetic one.

Hmm ok. Makes sense I guess...

I'm glad you liked the implementation. The base speed is actually 100 feet (20ft x Caster level), which I'm considering lowering, it's just Phantom Steed normally has a minimum CL of 5.

I missed that. 100 feet is actually a little much I think.

I'll go work on the wording. It is indeed supposed to work similarly to a Paladin's smite. Improved Weapon of Vengeance was only really introduced, rather than having HD-based damage from level 2, to prevent 2 level dips giving a big damage boost.

That makes sense. I approve.

I will make sure it's clear - all things that mention Hellfire damage are Hellfire as it is described in the Weapon of Vengeance class feature, which is the same as the Hellfire described in Hellfire warlock.

Ah...missed that again. In my defense, there's a lot of class features to read through

There is this wonderful scene in the comics where Lucifer pulls of the Rider's leg and starts beating him up with it. He grows a new one and then impales Lucifer on a flaming cross. I felt Regeneration only fair. In fact, that reminds me, we need a clause about rapid limb regrowth.

That sounds pretty epic.

I will consider changing it. It was based off Dimension Door originally, but of course, Dimension Door stops you acting once you use it.

This was a tricky one. It's a signature move of the Ghost Riders, but Death effects are very strong. I might introduce a Will and Fort save, like Phantasmal Killer, and then have that vanish at higher levels.

Making it like phantasmal killer would be appropriate I think.

Ed:

Ghost Rider, especially in the comics, shows a remarkable inability to doge anything. He just takes it on the chin and keeps coming, hence my decision to give good Fort rather than Reflex saves. There's one scene where he manages to fail to avoid the Hulk jumping off the Empire State Building onto his head...

I didn't know that. In any case the saves make sense then

Cogidubnus · 04-06-2012, 11:21 AM

Right, I've lowered the starting speed of the Hellfire Steed to 60ft, and given Penance Stare two saves to avoid until 15th level, and made all the other changes I suggested in my previous post, including rewording Weapon of Vengeance a bit.

And I don't blame you for missing a few details, there's a lot there and some of my wording's a bit odd. It often takes me a while to clean up the edges of some abilities. Hellfire blast, for example, didn't actually state that it was Hellfire damage until just now.

Lemmy · 04-06-2012, 12:01 PM

I knew I'd love this as soon as I read the title! I always loved the Ghost Rider comics, and I was very disappointed with both movies.

It looks very fun to play! Like a badass paladin, but without the annoying "holier-than-thou" behavior.

I think the "Ride What You Will" ability should be a class feature for every Ghost Rider. It's very flavorful, but doesn't look so powerful as to be in the same category as Pounce and Ride Like Hell.

What is the save DC of the Penance Stare?
And what if it could be used as a Coup de Grace on a helpless creature, but if the target fails its save, it can't be ressurected. At all. Not even with Miracle/Wish.

Kinda fits the whole "I'll burn your very soul!" theme.

Cogidubnus · 04-06-2012, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemmy

I knew I'd love this as soon as I read the title! I always loved the Ghost Rider comics, and I was very disappointed with both movies.

It looks very fun to play! Like a badass paladin, but without the annoying "holier-than-thou" behavior.

I think the "Ride What You Will" ability should be a class feature for every Ghost Rider. It's very flavorful, but doesn't look so powerful as to be in the same category as Pounce and Ride Like Hell.

What is the save DC of the Penance Stare?
And what if it could be used as a Coup de Grace on a helpless creature, but if the target fails its save, it can't be ressurected. At all. Not even with Miracle/Wish.

Kinda fits the whole "I'll burn your very soul!" theme.

Ack, I never actually stated the save DCs for the Ghost Rider outright. Will do that now. And I'll think on the coup de grace idea, it's a neat one.

The thing about Ride What You Will is that you get a free True Resurrection on your mount at dawn. If you're riding a horse that's not much, but if you've, say, got Dragon Cohort and are riding that, that's a big deal. It's exploitable enough that I didn't want to simply give it away, and nor did I want every Ghost Rider to be automatically riding mounts with attack actions. The mount's more about mobility than its own attacks, at least in the class chassis.

Lemmy · 04-06-2012, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cogidubnus

The thing about Ride What You Will is that you get a free True Resurrection on your mount at dawn. If you're riding a horse that's not much, but if you've, say, got Dragon Cohort and are riding that, that's a big deal. It's exploitable enough that I didn't want to simply give it away, and nor did I want every Ghost Rider to be automatically riding mounts with attack actions. The mount's more about mobility than its own attacks, at least in the class chassis.

Ah, I see! I didn't thik about that. My suggestion was more like, he can turn whatever he rides into a Hellfire Steed, but it that steed dies, then it's gone. Maybe he should be capable to transform anything he rides, as long as it has no more than, say, half his HD. And if it dies, it dies.

But if he chose the "Ride What You Will" ability, he ride anything and is able to reform the Hellfire Steed.

Then again, I don't really think it needs any change, I'm just being greedy

.
Also I have a doubt... Biblical Scope, the GR can use whatever affliction he wants, but only one at a time, and later can use 2 at a time or a more powerful one? Or does he choose one he can use and that's all? And in case it's the latter option, is there anyway to learn more afflictions? (Maybe a feat).

I'd probably let the GR add Charisma modifier to initiative checks, since most of his enemies would be too stunned by his appearance to react properly... Now, THAT is being greedy... But I can't help it!

Cogidubnus · 04-06-2012, 12:34 PM

I will avoid changing initiative for now. The Rider gets a lot of benefits from movement and charging and enemies ought to be allowed to try to avoid that by closing fast.

Biblical in Scope grants you either 1 affliction, 1 plague and 1 doom, or you may switch out your plague for 2 afflictions, or your doom for 2 plagues and/or afflictions. So you could have 3 afflictions and 2 plagues, if you wanted, but no doom.

Lemmy · 04-06-2012, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cogidubnus

I will avoid changing initiative for now. The Rider gets a lot of benefits from movement and charging and enemies ought to be allowed to try to avoid that by closing fast.

Biblical in Scope grants you either 1 affliction, 1 plague and 1 doom, or you may switch out your plague for 2 afflictions, or your doom for 2 plagues and/or afflictions. So you could have 3 afflictions and 2 plagues, if you wanted, but no doom.

I agree with that, it's not like it needs more firepower. As I said, I was just being greedy.

Reading all class features a 2nd time, I actually think Unstoppable Vengeance may be too powerful.

Empedocles · 04-06-2012, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemmy

I agree with that, it's not like it needs more firepower. As I said, I was just being greedy.

Reading all class features a 2nd time, I actually think Unstoppable Vengeance may be too powerful.

Hmm. Looking back, I agree. That's some pretty big DR...maybe make DR equal to 1/3 class levels (or HD) and drop the SR down to 8 + class levels (or HD). That's still pretty dang powerful, but not quite as good. Also, say that the SR doesn't stack with racial bonuses...or a 3rd level drow would have 22 SR at 3rd level (granted, his ECL would be 5

)

Cogidubnus · 04-06-2012, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilpich

Hmm. Looking back, I agree. That's some pretty big DR...maybe make DR equal to 1/3 class levels (or HD) and drop the SR down to 8 + class levels (or HD). That's still pretty dang powerful, but not quite as good. Also, say that the SR doesn't stack with racial bonuses...or a 3rd level drow would have 22 SR at 3rd level (granted, his ECL would be 5

)

SR never stacks anyway, it overlaps. Says so specifically in the SRD. Same with DR. The DR and SR are good, but they're at the standard I've seen in most homebrew classes on these forums that grant them.

Empedocles · 04-06-2012, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cogidubnus

SR never stacks anyway, it overlaps. Says so specifically in the SRD. Same with DR. The DR and SR are good, but they're at the standard I've seen in most homebrew classes on these forums that grant them.

It does? News to me lol

I still say every 3rd level for DR. That gets you up to DR 6, which is what WotC DR-granting classes typically grant...and this is much stronger than a sohei or a barbarian.

Cogidubnus · 04-06-2012, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilpich

It does? News to me lol

I still say every 3rd level for DR. That gets you up to DR 6, which is what WotC DR-granting classes typically grant...and this is much stronger than a sohei or a barbarian.

I will think on it, see what other people say, maybe drop a few lines to people who I know know their stuff.

Ed: Not that I think you don't, you've made some very useful and astute comments, I'm just a fan of getting multiple opinions on stuff like this.

Lemmy · 04-06-2012, 03:28 PM

I see you added the Penance-Stare-as-Coup-de-Grace option! I helped! Yay!

Also, I think I found some problems, mostly with Biblical in Scope

Most abilities have no range specification. I suppose it's line of sight, but as it is, I could inflict boils on someone on the other side of the planet. Then, I could command locusts to attack a city on another plane of existence. They also lack what kind of action is spent on using them. Is it a free action? A full-round action? A ritual that takes 10 minutes?

Lastly, re-reading these.

Quote:

Divine Fire: By taking two full-round actions, the Ghost Rider may cause Hellfire to rain down upon an area of up to 2 square miles. The fire does 10d6 damage a round to everything within the area, and persists until every creature and building within the area is dead or destroyed, or leaves the area. This ability is usable once per month.

Quote:

And Vengeance Takes Its Place: The Ghost Rider is the fury of innocence trampled and sullied. It is justice in its most ancient form. By 20th level, the Ghost Rider has realised that vision. The Rider gains immunity to Fire, ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain. All of their supernatural abilities and SLAs become Extraordinary effects. In addition, once per encounter, the Ghost Rider can force an opponent who succeeds on a save against one of its abilities to re-roll that save.

I could summon Divine Fire centered around the throne of a god. And as long as there was anything alive in the area, including the god, who may or may not be immune to hellfire damage, the fire keeps burning. Forever. The god can't even dispell it as it's now an (Ex) ability.
Basically, once a month, you choose something to utterly destroy. Maybe it should have a duration of "1 week or until every creature and building within the area is dead or destroyed, or leaves the area, whichever comes first."

Also, considering the following:

Quote:

Fire Resistance (Ex): At 5th level, the Ghost Rider gains Fire Resistance equal to half his HD and cannot be harmed by Hellfire attacks.

A GR can even live in an area of permanent hellfire storm, as he is alive and immune to its damage. Not that he would have any reason to do it, but he could. Although he'd eventually starve to death, since food would be destroyed by the storm. Unless he somehow manages to buy a ring of sustenance that is not affected by Hellfire.

Which actually makes me wonder, does the GR's fire resistance apply to his equipment as well?

Power Grief: There is a minor typo here:
Each enemy must succeed on a Fortitude save or be stunned, is knocked back by 5ft for every HD the Ghost Rider has and suffers 1d6 Hellfire damage for each HD the Ghost Rider has.
I think there shouldn't be the "is" before knocked back or an "-s" at the end of suffer. Unless the Fortitude save is just to prevent the stunned condition, in which case, it should be adressed separately.

Something like:

Every enemy in the area is knocked back by 5ft for every HD the Ghost Rider has and suffers 1d6 Hellfire damage for each HD the Ghost Rider has. Each enemy affected enemy must succeed on a Fortitude save or be stunned.

Also, how long does the stunned condition last?

EDIT: Fixed some typos of my own...

EDIT 2: Amazing! Every single time I read my post I find a new typo!

Cogidubnus · 04-07-2012, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Most abilities have no range specification. I suppose it's line of sight, but as it is, I could inflict boils on someone on the other side of the planet. Then, I could command locusts to attack a city on another plane of existence. They also lack what kind of action is spent on using them. Is it a free action? A full-round action? A ritual that takes 10 minutes?

I will go back and put these in, sorry, an oversight.

Quote:

I could summon Divine Fire centered around the throne of a god. And as long as there was anything alive in the area, including the god, who may or may not be immune to hellfire damage, the fire keeps burning. Forever. The god can't even dispell it as it's now an (Ex) ability.
Basically, once a month, you choose something to utterly destroy. Maybe it should have a duration of "1 week or until every creature and building within the area is dead or destroyed, or leaves the area, whichever comes first."

Yeah, I suppose that'd be less abusable. Though to be fair, you can still end it with Iron Heart Surge in one round.
I'm going to add a clause ending all Biblical in Scope effects currently active if the Ghost Rider dies. So sure you can summon Hellfire onto a god, but he'll just kill you, as you deserve, and go back to life as normal.

Quote:

A GR can even live in an area of permanent hellfire storm, as he is alive and immune to its damage. Not that he would have any reason to do it, but he could. Although he'd eventually starve to death, since food would be destroyed by the storm. Unless he somehow manages to buy a ring of sustenance that is not affected by Hellfire.

Which actually makes me wonder, does the GR's fire resistance apply to his equipment as well?

I have no problems with that. And I'm not sure. If the rules say characters share their resistances with equipment, then yeah. Otherwise no.

Quote:

Each enemy must succeed on a Fortitude save or be stunned, is knocked back by 5ft for every HD the Ghost Rider has and suffers 1d6 Hellfire damage for each HD the Ghost Rider has.
I think there shouldn't be the "is" before knocked back or an "-s" at the end of suffer. Unless the Fortitude save is just to prevent the stunned condition, in which case, it should be adressed separately.

The save is indeed only against the Stunned condition. High level abilities ought to be powerful. I'll add a duration to the Stunned condition.

Lemmy · 04-07-2012, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cogidubnus

I will go back and put these in, sorry, an oversight.

Yeah, I suppose that'd be less abusable. Though to be fair, you can still end it with Iron Heart Surge in one round.
I'm going to add a clause ending all Biblical in Scope effects currently active if the Ghost Rider dies. So sure you can summon Hellfire onto a god, but he'll just kill you, as you deserve, and go back to life as normal.

That would make sense. I don't think Ironheart Surge is a very good example of balance, though.

EDIT: You probably should make it so the GR can only mantain 1 effect, or at most, one of each effect at any given time. As it's written, he could slowly fill the world with rainning Hellfire (at least as long as there is something alive or a building in each hellfire area)

Quote:

I have no problems with that. And I'm not sure. If the rules say characters share their resistances with equipment, then yeah. Otherwise no.

Me neither, in fact, I actually think that would be awesome! Imagine a party resting in a local Tavern, hearing tales about and epic GR from the local bard "No man ever came back from the Valley of Hellfire. The damned place will burn as long as the Spirit of Vengeance lives"

I was more worried about a GR who decides to attack an enemy base. He can just call down Hellfire and calmly walk in. Most of his opposition would be dead before he even reached the entrance, and whatever survived would probably be in a pretty bad shape, specially if they didn't have teleport. Even another 20th level character would probably take at least 20 or 30d6 before finding the GR.

Quote:

The save is indeed only against the Stunned condition. High level abilities ought to be powerful. I'll add a duration to the Stunned condition.

I thought that was the case, but the wording is a bit odd.

Empedocles · 04-07-2012, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemmy

Me neither, in fact, I actually think that would be awesome! Imagine a party in a Tavern hearing tales about and epic GR from the local bard "No man ever came back from the Valley of Hellfire. The damned place will burn as long as the Spirit of Vengeance lives"

I was more worried about a GR who decides to attack an enemy base. He can just call down Hellfire and calmly walk in. Most of his opposition would be dead before he even reached the entrance, and whatever survived would probably be in a pretty bad shape, specially if they didn't have teleport. Even another 20th level character would probably take at least 20 or 30d6 before finding the GR.

I thought that was the case, but the wording is a bit odd.

That's not really going to happen though. Think about it: almost any character of that level has enough resources, magical and item wise, to avoid the damage until they found the ghost rider.

Example: The GR "Jack," level 20, opens up his assault on the archmage Kelzor's keep with the firestorm. It doesn't exactly make the encounter easy.

Jack will have likely demolished much of the keep and maybe killed some minor enemies. Kelzor the archmage could just hide in Mordenkainen's mansion, use Genesis to create an alternate plane to hide in, teleport away, find the GR and at that point, even with the hellfire, the wizard has an advantage.

This class is powerful, maybe even Tier 2 now, but not broken at all.

Lemmy · 04-07-2012, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilpich

That's not really going to happen though. Think about it: almost any character of that level has enough resources, magical and item wise, to avoid the damage until they found the ghost rider.

Example: The GR "Jack," level 20, opens up his assault on the archmage Kelzor's keep with the firestorm. It doesn't exactly make the encounter easy.

Jack will have likely demolished much of the keep and maybe killed some minor enemies. Kelzor the archmage could just hide in Mordenkainen's mansion, use Genesis to create an alternate plane to hide in, teleport away, find the GR and at that point, even with the hellfire, the wizard has an advantage.

This class is powerful, maybe even Tier 2 now, but not broken at all.

Oh, I don't think it's broken. A very high tier3, maybe, but not broken.

And yeah, I agree that a 20th level wizard could escape the cenario I used. But then, again, a 20th level wizard could escape most cenarios.

Using epic wizards as point of reference is somewhat misleading. They are not the best example of a balanced character.

I love the ability. it sounds cool and powerful. I just think it should have a maximum duration for the effect, (unless the GR stays inside the area, so he can claim it for himself. That'd be awesome, indeed!).

Cogidubnus · 04-07-2012, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilpich

That's not really going to happen though. Think about it: almost any character of that level has enough resources, magical and item wise, to avoid the damage until they found the ghost rider.

Example: The GR "Jack," level 20, opens up his assault on the archmage Kelzor's keep with the firestorm. It doesn't exactly make the encounter easy.

Jack will have likely demolished much of the keep and maybe killed some minor enemies. Kelzor the archmage could just hide in Mordenkainen's mansion, use Genesis to create an alternate plane to hide in, teleport away, find the GR and at that point, even with the hellfire, the wizard has an advantage.

This class is powerful, maybe even Tier 2 now, but not broken at all.

I agree. By 20th level, a Wizard can do far, *far* worse things than this with a little imagination. And any proper CR 20 encounter will be able to avoid/shrug off the hellfire one way or another. Biblical In Scope gives the Rider the ability to unleash some pretty awe-inspiring destruction, but it's not a real threat to potential enemies. It's more of a judgement call - as in, I judge this city full of evil and want to destroy it.

Anyway, I've made the SR lower and the regeneration easier to overcome, which makes him a bit of a softer target, and given the hellfire a maximum duration of a week. As it can only be used once a month, you can no longer drown the world in it.

Empedocles · 04-07-2012, 10:58 AM

Hmmm okay. So then I feel like this class needs a Tier ranking.

In combat, it can dish out huge damage and has incredible mobility, which more or less balances out against the lack of actual ranged attacks.
He has a fair amount of utility, but it's largely offensive abilities you can be creative with.
So overall a solid Tier 2: he has lots of raw power, but generally can't adapt to every possible situation the way a cleric or wizard can.

Cogidubnus · 04-07-2012, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilpich

Hmmm okay. So then I feel like this class needs a Tier ranking.

In combat, it can dish out huge damage and has incredible mobility, which more or less balances out against the lack of actual ranged attacks.
He has a fair amount of utility, but it's largely offensive abilities you can be creative with.
So overall a solid Tier 2: he has lots of raw power, but generally can't adapt to every possible situation the way a cleric or wizard can.

I mostly agree, I might say low Tier 2 because although his damage is good, it's no more than, say, a well-built Warlock with Eldritch Glaive gets (that was a rough power level for damage, although of course he benefits from actually being suited to combat) and he has only minimal capacity to really break the universe.

Lemmy · 04-07-2012, 11:23 AM

Dunno... Tier 2 is defined by being able to be to extremely good at whatever they want. The difference between Tier 2 and 1 is that tier 2 actually has to choose what it wants to be good at, while Tier 1 can be good at every thing they want, whenever they want.

GR are very good at combat (with all his firepower... or should I say, hellfire power... "drums solo") and social encounters (being Cha based and having many, many ways to inspire and/or intimidate nations). They also have great mobility (and very badass means of transportation).

But, they are not great at whatever they want. (Stealth comes to mind). Remember, a sorcerer can do anything a wizard can do, he just can't do it all.
As epic levels go, a sorcerer gains more and more versatility, while the GR grows more powerful, but not more versatile. I guess GR's are borderline high T3/ low T2.

Like I said, I don't think this class is broken, powerful, sure, but not broken. What I meant is "Comparing with an epic full-caster is not a good way to balance a class".

About the SR, it's not the fact that it was 11+HD, it's more the fact the it gains both great SR and great DR.

I personally think it's DR could be a bit lower and it's SR could be a bit higher than it's right now (maybe DR 1/3HD and SR 8+HD?), but I'm not really sure, so don't take my word for that.

Empedocles · 04-07-2012, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemmy

Dunno... Tier 2 is defined by being able to be to extremely good at whatever they want. The difference between Tier 2 and 1 is that tier 2 actually has to choose what it wants to be good at, while Tier 1 can be good at every thing they want, whenever they want.

GR are very good at combat (with all his firepower... or should I say, hellfire power... "drums solo") and social encounters (being Cha based and having many, many ways to inspire and/or intimidate nations). They also have great mobility (and very badass means of transportation).

But, they are not great at whatever they want. (Stealth comes to mind). Remember, a sorcerer can do anything a wizard can do, he just can't do it all.
As epic levels go, a sorcerer gains more and more versatility, while the GR grows more powerful, but not more versatile. I guess GR's are borderline high T3/ low T2.

Like I said, I don't think this class is broken, powerful, sure, but not broken. What I meant is "Comparing with an epic full-caster is not a good way to balance a class".

About the SR, it's not the fact that it was 11+HD, it's more the fact the it gains both great SR and great DR.

I personally think it's DR could be a bit lower and it's SR could be a bit higher than it's right now (maybe DR 1/3HD and SR 8+HD?), but I'm not really sure, so don't take my word for that.

Okay, but this definitely doesn't fit into the Tier 3 category. Compare it to say, a factotum, and this class smashes right through it in a blaze of very fast moving hellfire. I mean, honestly, it doesn't really fit neatly into any Tier since it's too good at what it tries to be good at to really be on the power level of Tier 3 or lower, it doesn't have much versatility the way Tier 3 has, but it doesn't choose where all of its raw power goes the way a Tier 2 character does.

Cogidubnus · 04-07-2012, 11:29 AM

I spoke to Gorgondantess, and he made the very good point that, for example, at level 10 you have DR 5. You might be fighting a giant who's doing 25-40 points of damage in a hit. DR isn't anywhere near as powerful as WotC seem to have thought it was when they made it so hard for players to get. Reducing the damage you take by 1 5th only means who need to be hit 6 times rather than 5. That's not that big a difference, especially if 4 hits would have normally killed you.

Empedocles · 04-07-2012, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cogidubnus

I spoke to Gorgondantess, and he made the very good point that, for example, at level 10 you have DR 5. You might be fighting a giant who's doing 25-40 points of damage in a hit. DR isn't anywhere near as powerful as WotC seem to have thought it was when they made it so hard for players to get. Reducing the damage you take by 1 5th only means who need to be hit 6 times rather than 5. That's not that big a difference, especially if 4 hits would have normally killed you.

I agree there. DR is good where it is, and SR could actually be brought up (I still say 8+HD, but it's your call obviously).

Lemmy · 04-07-2012, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cogidubnus

I spoke to Gorgondantess, and he made the very good point that, for example, at level 10 you have DR 5. You might be fighting a giant who's doing 25-40 points of damage in a hit. DR isn't anywhere near as powerful as WotC seem to have thought it was when they made it so hard for players to get. Reducing the damage you take by 1 5th only means who need to be hit 6 times rather than 5. That's not that big a difference, especially if 4 hits would have normally killed you.

I agree with your reasoning. DR is okay.

My suggestion was more about keeping it line with WotC classes. And as a Vilpich said, the SR could use a bump to 8 (or 9) +HD, just so those pesky wizards have to sweat a little!

I like that you changed the DR to DR/- instead of basing it on weapon enhancement. This makes it easier to calculate in game.

Decent SR + Good Fort and Will Saves + Force of Personality: Johnny Blaze will kick some Dr.Strange's ass! I like it!

And it appears we reached the conclusion that GR is Tier 2,5?

Benly · 04-07-2012, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemmy

And it appears we reached the conclusion that GR is Tier 2,5?

Yeah, this guy is a good example of a situation that the tier system doesn't cover very well simply because it had no need to (not having been designed to cover homebrew). There is simply no way in official material to achieve tier 2 power without tier 2 or better flexibility, so classes in that situation weren't really assigned a place in the tiers.

Doorhandle · 04-07-2012, 07:38 PM

Certianly powerful enough to match the spellcasters for sheer pain inflicted, though.

Cogidubnus · 04-08-2012, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doorhandle

Certianly powerful enough to match the spellcasters for sheer pain inflicted, though.

So can a Warblade with a little bit of hard work. If you can get Pounce on a Warblade, for example, the use War Master's Charge, you're churning out 4 (probably 5, you'll likely have Haste) attacks, each dealing 50 points more damage than usual, and that's without considering that you just gave your allies a free charge each. Time Stands Still is another great example of how to deal big damage. I'll agree the Ghost Rider's damage is good more easily than a martial initiator's, but they can get to a similar level.