Goblins VIII: This Thread Contains An Unexpected Variable - Page 34

Killer Angel · 04-09-2012, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gez

Thunt isn't owed any apology. The woman admitted she interpreted the scene wrongly, that should have been more than enough for him. Did Thunt say he was sorry for triggering, through his clumsy writing, painful flashback in a rape victim? No, he didn't, he was too busy justifying himself and lashing out at criticism. But that impudent woman, she really should make a show of public contrition for having dared to upset poor Thunt's widdle feelings!

Frankly, the initial accusation was a very harsh one and was based on a totally false impression, without bothering to verify it. And it was repeated for some time. An apology should be expected.

Othniel Edden · 04-09-2012, 04:15 PM

As long as Thunt just shakes off the critism, and continues with the comic, I think everyone should be fine. Hypersensitivity to that issue can hardly be unexcepted at the hands of the woman here, especially given her circumstances. I really don't think it benefits either of them to keep this in the public eye.

Madara · 04-09-2012, 05:03 PM

I noticed the contest closed the comments section and opened a new one

At least they noticed eventually. Still, we'll let it die like the rest of flames do.

Anyways, thoughts on if the whole party makes it through the dungeon? What if only one makes it to the end and succeeds? What happen to the other two?

Lizard Lord · 04-09-2012, 05:12 PM

I can see Gez's point on most of what he said. One thing I disagree with is when it was said that Thunt used rape solely to depict how evil Goblinslayer was. In my mind that plot point served two important purposes, neither of which is depicting Goblinslayer as evil since he already proved himself to be a complete monster (not that is wasn't at least a little surprising that he would sink as low as rape.)

The first point was to establish Kin's trauma and gives her desire not to be touched by men, human men specifically. However this may be done without Goblinslayer out right stating what he did, which brings us to point two.

The moment Goblinslayer flat out admits to being a rapist is the moment Minmax draws the line and shows the audience that he does indeed have a moral compass. He may still have thought of monsters as XP fodder, but he knew there are somethings you just don't do even to monsters. Minmax throwing Goblinslayer out that window was a crowning moment of awesome, not just because Goblinslayer deserved it (which he did and more), but because it was Minmax standing up for a monster.

The Linker · 04-09-2012, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lizard Lord

The moment Goblinslayer flat out admits to being a rapist is the moment Minmax draws the line and shows the audience that he does indeed have a moral compass. He may still have thought of monsters as XP fodder, but he knew there are somethings you just don't do even to monsters. Minmax throwing Goblinslayer out that window was a crowning moment of awesome, not just because Goblinslayer deserved it (which he did and more), but because it was Minmax standing up for a monster.

This exactly. It wasn't about showing Goblinslayer was a bad person, because everyone knew that. There was no need to hammer that in. What did need to be shown, however, was precisely what Minmax needs to hear in order to go against everything he knows.

It wouldn't have worked if it was from Forgath's point of view, hearing them talk about something before Minmax gets mad and throws Dellyn out a window. Show, don't tell.

The moment where Minmax awkwardly laughs, before absorbing what Dellyn says, said so very much about his character. I could go on for a paragraph or two about all the things we could derive from that, but I digress already. Suffice to say, it was in fact quite important to hear Goblinslayer spell out exactly what he does to Kin -- just not as it relates to Goblinslayer directly.

fwiffo · 04-09-2012, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Linker

This exactly. It wasn't about showing Goblinslayer was a bad person, because everyone knew that. There was no need to hammer that in. What did need to be shown, however, was precisely what Minmax needs to hear in order to go against everything he knows.

Yes, indeed. It was an epic character moment between a character whose defining characteristic is being written as completely over the top total idiot and a character whose defining characteristic is being written as completely over the top total sadist and abuser. That is some quality comic writing there.

Marnath · 04-09-2012, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fwiffo

Yes, indeed. It was an epic character moment between a character whose defining characteristic is being written as completely over the top total idiot and a character whose defining characteristic is being written as completely over the top total sadist and abuser. That is some quality comic writing there.

If that's all you got out of their characters then I think you're missing out. Min-Max and Goblinslayer both have more to them than that.

Dragonus45 · 04-09-2012, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Othniel Edden

As long as Thunt just shakes off the critism, and continues with the comic, I think everyone should be fine. Hypersensitivity to that issue can hardly be unexcepted at the hands of the woman here, especially given her circumstances. I really don't think it benefits either of them to keep this in the public eye.

True some sensitivity should be allowed for, but when terms like "Rape Sympathizer" "Misogynist" start getting thrown around its time to draw a line. Those phrases can carry a lot of meaning, they are only a step short of rapist, and when they get bandied around and people start listening to them whole lives can be upturned. And it could really damage his comic if it were to go the wrong way.

Also i think a lot of people miss something, Thunt sees us as his pals. To him were the guys, we hang out with him when he draws he shares funny stories with us. When things to wrong in his life he blogs about it to us, and talks to us about it. He sees his fans as friends, whom he is telling a story he really wants to tell too. So when he puts up a post like that i think of it like when I bitch to a friend about the guy who cut me off it traffic, or when my boss gets on my nerves and i've had a bad day.

Otherworld Odd · 04-10-2012, 12:31 AM

Oh, I never said it was his intention. At least I didn't mean to make it sound that way. I'm just saying he should have seen it coming. There's other ways to go about it than the way he chose, which was completed unprofessional. That, plus posting her exact responses instead of just paraphrasing lets fans get right in there with a simple google search or two.

All in all, I agree with what busterswd said.

Killer Angel · 04-10-2012, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madara

At least they noticed eventually. Still, we'll let it die like the rest of flames do.

Right, back on comic.
I wonder how Bald Turd MinMax, having a Pit fiend on his side, was still wondering in the dungeon... he should have won it long time ago.
This says 2 things (IMO):
1 - they're there since a (relatively?) short time (shorter than our group, anyway)
or
2 - BTMM is only good at guessing names...

Barbarian MD · 04-10-2012, 06:17 AM

Does anyone else think it's questionable that the vote total shot from 20,000 on previous contests to 40,000, and all in the last half-day? That seems odd to me. Of course, it's not slanted to one side or the other, so if there were shenanigans, it was on te part of both fan bases...

Killer Angel, PsiMax said they always die to AltMax, so it implies several runs.

Traab · 04-10-2012, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killer Angel

Right, back on comic.
I wonder how Bald Turd MinMax, having a Pit fiend on his side, was still wondering in the dungeon... he should have won it long time ago.
This says 2 things (IMO):
1 - they're there since a (relatively?) short time (shorter than our group, anyway)
or
2 - BTMM is only good at guessing names...

Maybe not. Think about the key room. They needed what, 3-4 keys with sub 9 stats to move on? There are only two of them there, and assuming pit boy kept melting anyone who walked by, there wasnt anyone to be forced into helping them pass. Other rooms like the door that only opens with confusion and closes with comprehension might also cause issues. Ill agree that any direct combat was probably a walk for them though.

Killer Angel · 04-10-2012, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhvaughan

Killer Angel, PsiMax said they always die to AltMax, so it implies several runs.

Several run is one thing, almost 2 millions is another...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traab

Maybe not. Think about the key room. They needed what, 3-4 keys with sub 9 stats to move on? There are only two of them there, and assuming pit boy kept melting anyone who walked by, there wasnt anyone to be forced into helping them pass. Other rooms like the door that only opens with confusion and closes with comprehension might also cause issues. Ill agree that any direct combat was probably a walk for them though.

True enough

Draconi Redfir · 04-10-2012, 07:47 AM

i'm pretty sure the key treasure is just a little bonus thing and nothing more. people can walk right on by without even trying for it if they want to.

Traab · 04-10-2012, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir

i'm pretty sure the key treasure is just a little bonus thing and nothing more. people can walk right on by without even trying for it if they want to.

Ok fine, but still, even if that is the case, there are rooms where combat isnt the answer.

Barbarian MD · 04-10-2012, 10:14 AM

Consider this: the only variability in all of the permutations is who you encounter during the run. Take 20 groups: if none of them get out, they will all run the EXACT SAME COURSE in the EXACT SAME WAY for infinity. If one of them gets out, it opens up a new spot, and now you have a new value in your equation, which can allow for change.

Granted, there's the whole butterfly effect, so each time someone gets out it might shower small variations throughout the whole system, but on the whole you'll have people making the exact same mistakes every time.

It was only the intervention of PsiMax that will save the prime group this time around. Otherwise, they would have died to the demon, just as they had every time previously for who knows how many permutations.

Here's a somber example: let's say that you have two groups in the confusion room, and they both get killed. If that's the first room they encounter, then they keep dying in the exact same manner, having the exact same conversations, for infinity.

Worst. Dungeon. Ever.

As I think about it, the trip counter could conceivably play a role in increasing a group's cautiousness, but without knowing what it is that they did last time, their "cautious" approach would probably continue to be the same (deadly) approach.

If one knew about the counter before starting, you could in effect "program" your group to proceed differently each time. Every number divisible by five you take only left turns, every number divisible by 10 you take only right turns. Every odd number you're very aggressive, every even number you're very cautious. When you start throwing more complicated patterns, like every third number we do X, and every 7th number we do Y, and every prime number we add in this extra thing, you start getting exponential permutations. That sort of thing would guarantee that you're introducing variation, so you wouldn't be doomed to chance.

Draconi Redfir · 04-10-2012, 01:59 PM

We still don't know how rooms are affected by the resets. For all we know the rooms as well as the players shuffle around each time.

For example our group and the barbarian group all met in the confusion room this time, but perhaps last time they met in a room with a jumping puzzle. Perhaps the time before that they did not meet at all and were in two completely different rooms. Perhaps the time before THAT they both met in a room filled with fire. Etc.

The Linker · 04-10-2012, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir

We still don't know how rooms are affected by the resets. For all we know the rooms as well as the players shuffle around each time.

It's worth pointing out that PsiMax's precise language here is "It'd be more efficient to set you free and let you die in the tower room again." It sort of gives the impression that they do, in fact, follow the same path every time.

It's not a total guarantee, though; the tower room might just be a room they've happened to reach many times before and it's so deadly to their specific group that they die pretty much every time.

RMS Oceanic · 04-10-2012, 03:45 PM

Update.

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Dragonus45 · 04-10-2012, 03:50 PM

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Marnath · 04-10-2012, 04:01 PM

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Originally Posted by Dragonus45

Spoiler

I spoilered your post for you.

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The Linker · 04-10-2012, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonus45

Also, no fire on the trees?

Yeah, he just mentioned on Twitter he totally forgot them. He's drawing it as we speak on the livestream, I believe.

Otherworld Odd · 04-10-2012, 04:23 PM

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Marnath · 04-10-2012, 04:24 PM

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Originally Posted by Otherworld Odd

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Dragonus45 · 04-10-2012, 04:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Marnath

I spoilered your post for you.

Spoiler

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Originally Posted by Otherworld Odd

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PhantomFox · 04-10-2012, 05:57 PM

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Marnath · 04-10-2012, 06:07 PM

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Originally Posted by PhantomFox

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t209 · 04-10-2012, 06:53 PM

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Originally Posted by Marnath

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I remember

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Barbarian MD · 04-10-2012, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir

We still don't know how rooms are affected by the resets. For all we know the rooms as well as the players shuffle around each time.

For example our group and the barbarian group all met in the confusion room this time, but perhaps last time they met in a room with a jumping puzzle. Perhaps the time before that they did not meet at all and were in two completely different rooms. Perhaps the time before THAT they both met in a room filled with fire. Etc.

I think PsiMax's ability to calculate the equation depends on him knowing all the variables, which he's been observing for hundreds of permutations. That suggests to me that it's always the same. But that doesn't mean I'm right.

Jayngfet · 04-10-2012, 07:07 PM

Can I just say I find it hilarious that immediatly after shaking off someone misreading his comic as containing cheap rape drama, he uploads a page containing cheap rape drama thrown into the last few pages?

EDIT: Looks like I'm not the first to post this, but it's still funny.