How do you capture a wizard?

[Jack_Simth]

Originally Posted by ScionoftheVoid

Maybe so, but the new phrasing only cuts out things which were irrelevant anyway and is even more safe than what was there before. Why would you ever not be on the safe side if it costs nothing?

Mostly because ultimately, it does cost something: most courts use precedent in some way or another, and what's expected behaviour often ends up being what the courts require in the edge cases or potential grey areas of law, and so being overcautious in such things very slowly shifts what's required of people in one direction or another. Personally, I'd rather it shift in the direction of "say what you want", myself.

[Zonugal]

Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy

A level 20 wizard can shuffle her feats around daily with no cost. You do have your Ice Assassin Revered Elder Phaerimm with Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos as some of it's spells known sitting in one of your Bags of Holding, right? With it's Wish's you can also shuffle your magic items to whatever you want them to be at any given time.

Then there is creating an Ice Assassin of a deity with Alter Reality and having it make all the spells you want that exist in the game permanent on you.

Then there is your entire army of Ice Assassins of yourself that you have hanging around and that have chosen different spells for the day as needed.

The reason that level 20 wizards are so powerful and difficult to kill is precisely because they have limitless options.

Besides not showing a tenth level Wizard, to which this discussion was primarily geared towards, you have provided a purely theoretical build which will nearly never see actual play.

This is the fallacy of the uber-mage. The more theoretical a wizard gets the more paranoid they'll become to a point in which they no longer exist in any practical essence. If we were to take every paranoid wizard to its true limit than they would never leave their own demi-plane. They'd never have a reason for it and thus they'd never instigate a reason for a foe to hunt them down. If you wrap a character in enough protection & safety they begin to close themselves off from the world.

So yes, your hermit of a Wizard is indestructible. But he's also effectively nonexistent in his own world out of his own fear-based isolation.

[Tvtyrant]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

AMF is really not as obvious as you'd expect. To start with, it's a Personal-range spell, and a 6th-level spell at that...so to use it at all, you need a 11th-level Tier 1 caster. Once you've got that, casting AMF requires him to then render himself useless for the actual fight, and then physically walk up to the (lower-level) PC to keep him inside the 10ft. radius effect.

It's an excellent defensive spell for, say, a Summoner wizard or a buffzard with allies. As an offensive anti-caster tool, it sucks horribly.

This is why I play an Arcane Archer and send the AMFs to them. It centers where the arrow lands, so they cannot simply dodge the arrow. Fire at their feet and then cast Wall of Stone around the AMF. If you can get the dome to go over their heads, they are trapped until the AMF ends.

[AgentofHellfire]

Originally Posted by Tvtyrant

This is why I play an Arcane Archer and send the AMFs to them. It centers where the arrow lands, so they cannot simply dodge the arrow. Fire at their feet and then cast Wall of Stone around the AMF. If you can get the dome to go over their heads, they are trapped until the AMF ends.

To which I respond Resilient Sphere. It's a fourth-level spell, so by 10th level a wizard should have at least 3 (probably 4, assuming the wizard isn't a race with an Int penalty and got a Headband of Intellect, which is sort of like getting a +X Sword in "basic") spell slots that could hold it--not a major assumption, in other words. One casting around you, the archer, puts your arrows pinging his sphere, which you could kill with an anti-magic field, but it'd start out centered around you, plus it'd waste your AMF uses.

[Calanon]

Spoiler

Originally Posted by Zonugal

Besides not showing a tenth level Wizard, to which this discussion was primarily geared towards, you have provided a purely theoretical build which will nearly never see actual play.

You are aware that at about 11th level a Wizard can start casting 9th level spells? (If built properly of course)

Originally Posted by Zonugal

This is the fallacy of the uber-mage. The more theoretical a wizard gets the more paranoid they'll become to a point in which they no longer exist in any practical essence. If we were to take every paranoid wizard to its true limit than they would never leave their own demi-plane. They'd never have a reason for it and thus they'd never instigate a reason for a foe to hunt them down. If you wrap a character in enough protection & safety they begin to close themselves off from the world.

Actually if we were to take every paranoid Wizard to its truest limit then we'd end up with Vecna

To be even more accurate we'd end up putting a lot of the Netherese Arcanist into this category, specifically: Karsus (****ing insane if you actually read his backstory), Ioulaum (Eh... Not to paranoid... a little crazy though...), Larloch (Probably more then all the rest), Aumver (Read his section in Champions of Ruin), and especially Telamont (His son is a friken Demigod, he has the right to be paranoid)

Hell we can even add some Thayan Red Wizards into the mix (Szass Tam to be specific) but the major point is, is that a LOT of Wizards are crazy as hell and would most likely make an army of Ice Assassin's in a heartbeat (Lets not even discuss what the God's might do with such techniques)

Originally Posted by Zonugal

So yes, your hermit of a Wizard is indestructible. But he's also effectively nonexistent in his own world out of his own fear-based isolation.

To true I'm afraid... But honestly? How do you challenge the truly paranoid Wizard? Seriously... With them being able to pull off Contingent spells for almost every single little situation why would they ever want to fight you or anyone else for that matter. Personally this is why I believe when Archwizards fight they resort to subterfuge rather then a direct confrontation (Since a direct fight between a Non-Divine Vecna and Karsus would overall result in the destruction of so many planes that whatever they are fighting over wouldn't even matter at that point...)

So does the Uber-Paranoid Wizard exist in D&D? Yes, to an extent but not to the point of completely cutting themselves off from the entire world (Except for Telamont, who hid away in the (Demi)Plane of Shadow for a good millennium)

Does Tippy go overboard with his world domination schemes? You bet your friken ass he does (Even going to the point of setting the new bar for the Paranoid Wizard) I mean if most Wizards thought of the stuff Tippy did then Toril would be bowing before there new Shade overlords in a matter of weeks and Vecna would be ruling the entire Multiverse in a matter of days instead of a matter of settings. In conclusion: Tippy's schemes most definitely do equal win... However this doesn't mean you should be doing the whole Ice Assassin trick the moment the DM looks away or start gating in a Solar Army just to fuel your Spells... I guess to summarize this: Think before you go off using one of Tippy's tricks, Sure it works by RAW but the point is, is that it was meant to see as much play as Pun Pun or The Wish/The Word.

If I'm lucky this'll count as 1 whole gp

[Zonugal]

Originally Posted by Calanon

But honestly? How do you challenge the truly paranoid Wizard? Seriously... With them being able to pull off Contingent spells for almost every single little situation why would they ever want to fight you or anyone else for that matter.

This is where we would fall into agreement, if by different paths.

I can't imagine someone fighting a paranoid wizard as I can't imagine a situation in which the paranoid wizard provokes someone else.

It might be that I don't really subscribe to higher-level D&D (I tend to stick around 6th - 10th level), so when I see a 20th level super arch-mage I just get bored as they don't present a credible character in the fiction that I prescribe to be my D&D.

A 20th level wizard, in my mind, is sort of like Dr. Manhattan. They are powerful in every way and indestructible, but completely closed off from their own world.

For this type of challenge I would build an average wizard that could be plopped into an average D&D campaign. A 10th level wizard who is the dean at a magic university. You build him as a true character, give him his typically prepared spells and provide him items to fit his wealth (perhaps that he has gained on past adventures). Than it wouldn't be a test of counter-counter-contigiency-counter, but rather a test of how immediately versatile a wizard can be right off the bat.

[Emperor Tippy]

Originally Posted by Zonugal

This is where we would fall into agreement, if by different paths.

I can't imagine someone fighting a paranoid wizard as I can't imagine a situation in which the paranoid wizard provokes someone else.

It might be that I don't really subscribe to higher-level D&D (I tend to stick around 6th - 10th level), so when I see a 20th level super arch-mage I just get bored as they don't present a credible character in the fiction that I prescribe to be my D&D.

A 20th level wizard, in my mind, is sort of like Dr. Manhattan. They are powerful in every way and indestructible, but completely closed off from their own world.

For this type of challenge I would build an average wizard that could be plopped into an average D&D campaign. A 10th level wizard who is the dean at a magic university. You build him as a true character, give him his typically prepared spells and provide him items to fit his wealth (perhaps that he has gained on past adventures). Than it wouldn't be a test of counter-counter-contigiency-counter, but rather a test of how immediately versatile a wizard can be right off the bat.

And if the OP bothered to say "I have a player with this build, I want to capture the character, what do I need to do?" then you would have a point.

He didn't, he just said he wanted to capture a party of tier one casters in the level 10-12 range. That can be done relatively easily (Wish them into prison, use a Weirdstone to shut down teleportation/dimensional travel and attack them normally with an army, throw a Rudimentary Intelligence Greater Shadesteel Golem with permanent emanation AMF and permanent emanation Temporal Repair at them, throw a higher level caster at them, etc.).

If the players are paranoid they can make it far more difficult, potentially impossible, to capture them through early access to 9th level magic but otherwise it's not that difficult.

By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

At level 20 a wizard will be able to do things like completely change his feat selection, have every spell in the game in his spellbook, be able to get any magic item or ability he wants pretty much on whim, etc.

There is a very good reason that I, and fluff for that matter, treat killing such a wizard as an entire campaign that can span multiple planes and take decades or centuries to come to fruition. And you still stand a very good chance of failure.

[Slipperychicken]

Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy

By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

Tippy, that post is epic. May I sig this part?

[Emperor Tippy]

Originally Posted by Slipperychicken

Tippy, that post is epic. May I sig this part?

Fine with me.

[Tvtyrant]

Originally Posted by AgentofHellfire

To which I respond Resilient Sphere. It's a fourth-level spell, so by 10th level a wizard should have at least 3 (probably 4, assuming the wizard isn't a race with an Int penalty and got a Headband of Intellect, which is sort of like getting a +X Sword in "basic") spell slots that could hold it--not a major assumption, in other words. One casting around you, the archer, puts your arrows pinging his sphere, which you could kill with an anti-magic field, but it'd start out centered around you, plus it'd waste your AMF uses.

I see two problems with that strategy. First, as an AA you likely have high dexterity and it is a reflex save. Second, it assumes the opponent goes first when I am also a caster and have the same opportunities for boosting my Initiative. I am not saying there is a sure chance of success, but I have done it on several occasions. If you have a divine caster you can leave the top open and have your ally cost Cometfall into the space.

[Malachei]

Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy

And if the OP bothered to say "I have a player with this build, I want to capture the character, what do I need to do?" then you would have a point. He didn't, he just said he wanted to capture a party of tier one casters in the level 10-12 range.

Exactly:

The OP specified he wants to capture a party of level 10-12.

You keep talking about capturing a level 20 wizard.

We all know this is hard to do, but it is not the OP's question, which is really described on sufficient detail to talk about.

So again, I think this you're taking this thread off topic just to address your ice assassin, shadesteel golem, chaos shuffle, etc. shenanigans.

[Calanon]

Originally Posted by Malachei

Exactly:

The OP specified he wants to capture a party of level 10-12.

You keep talking about capturing a level 20 wizard.

We all know this is hard to do, but it is not the OP's question, which is really described on sufficient detail to talk about.

So again, you're taking this thread off topic just to address your ice assassin, shadesteel golem, chaos shuffle, etc. shenanigans.

Circle Magic! it makes this entirely moot!

[Malachei]

Originally Posted by Calanon

Circle Magic! it makes this entirely moot!

Which one? Hathran? Feat? If not, source?

[Calanon]

Originally Posted by Malachei

Which one? Hathran? Feat? If not, source?

Any Specialist Wizard5 / Red Wizard6 can cast a single 9th level spell... Lets make it an Ice Assassin spell.

Get 5 other Wizards w/ Tattoo Focus to give up a single 2nd level spell (or as many levels to get a spell heightened up to a 9th)

Cast Rary's Arcane Conversion and exchange your heightened Cantrip for a 9th level spell in your spellbook.

[Malachei]

Originally Posted by Calanon

Any Specialist Wizard5 / Red Wizard6 can cast a single 9th level spell... Lets make it an Ice Assassin spell.

Get 5 other Wizards w/ Tattoo Focus to give up a single 2nd level spell (or as many levels to get a spell heightened up to a 9th)

Cast Rary's Arcane Conversion and exchange your heightened Cantrip for a 9th level spell in your spellbook.

And would you allow this in your game?

Let us assume you are the DM, and the wizard pulls this off. Now let us also assume that the party is traditionally composed, i.e. melee, skillmonkey, healer. Your other players suddenly find the game a lot less exciting, while your wizard player chuckles gleefully at his rules loophole and newfound power.

I repeat, IMO this is a loophole, not RAI, because RAI is laid out in general principles in the DMG, page 13 (see the section on Keeping Game Balance, which says it is "Good DM Management" to make sure no one PC outshines the rest).

[Calanon]

Originally Posted by Malachei

And would you allow this in your game?

Let us assume you are the DM, and the wizard pulls this off. Now let us also assume that the party is traditionally composed, i.e. melee, skillmonkey, healer. Your other players suddenly find the game a lot less exciting, while your wizard player chuckles gleefully at his rules loophole and newfound power.

I repeat, IMO this is a loophole, not RAI, because RAI is laid out in general principles in the DMG, page 13 (see the section on Keeping Game Balance, which says it is "Good DM Management" to make sure no one PC outshines the rest).

WHOA! chill friend, I never said that I would do it (I'd certainly allow it as a DM)

If the Wizard went out of his way to gather 4 other spellcasters with Tattoo focus, then you bet your ass I'd allow this Besides, In my games, I ALWAYS make people regret every single exploited action they make "Oh you want to make an army of Ice Assassin using Circle magic? Alright then the other participants gain as much control over the Ice Assassins as you do."

[Malachei]

Originally Posted by Calanon

WHOA! chill friend, I never said that I would do it (I'd certainly allow it as a DM)

If the Wizard went out of his way to gather 4 other spellcasters with Tattoo focus, then you bet your ass I'd allow this Besides, In my games, I ALWAYS make people regret every single exploited action they make "Oh you want to make an army of Ice Assassin using Circle magic? Alright then the other participants gain as much control over the Ice Assassins as you do."

I'm chilled. In fact, it is pretty cool where I am, though spring is coming. :) So one DM rules it out in advance, the other makes sure people regret and probably won't do it again. I think the important part is that we both see it as an exploitation. :)

[bloodtide]

Originally Posted by Zonugal

I tend to think these types of discussions are pretty awful in that there is never a model to use in place of the Wizard. Without a sample wizard character stated out, these discussions just become speculation as the pro-wizard side merely suggests that a wizard will have every spell, every contingency and every magic item within their grasp at all times.

This is always the problem with the people that think 'wizards are over powered'. No matter what you say to do, they find some crazy thing of ''oh the wizard cast this spell or made this item or did this.'' But, of course, the wizard only did this as they knew of the coming attack. But it's impossible to plan to be attacked every day of your life. And even more so it's impossible for a wizard to live a normal life(as if they were a real character, not a game construct).

But the idea sounds fun. Anyone one want to make a 10th level wizard and let us 'wizards are not so powerful' types come up with a way to catch the wizard. And I'm, at least, not talking about the arena combat where the two foes stand ten feet away and say 'fight'; I'm talking about a wizard that is a living breathing character in a campaign. So the wizard is living a normal wizard life, not casting all defensive spells and waiting to be attacked every second of their life.

[Malachei]

Originally Posted by bloodtide

This is always the problem with the people that think 'wizards are over powered'. No matter what you say to do, they find some crazy thing of ''oh the wizard cast this spell or made this item or did this.'' But, of course, the wizard only did this as they knew of the coming attack. But it's impossible to plan to be attacked every day of your life. And even more so it's impossible for a wizard to live a normal life(as if they were a real character, not a game construct).

But the idea sounds fun. Anyone one want to make a 10th level wizard and let us 'wizards are not so powerful' types come up with a way to catch the wizard. And I'm, at least, not talking about the arena combat where the two foes stand ten feet away and say 'fight'; I'm talking about a wizard that is a living breathing character in a campaign. So the wizard is living a normal wizard life, not casting all defensive spells and waiting to be attacked every second of their life.

Well, as long as DMs let 11th level wizards cast 9th level spells to make themselves near-invincible, their reputation is well deserved.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Originally Posted by bloodtide

This is always the problem with the people that think 'wizards are over powered'. No matter what you say to do, they find some crazy thing of ''oh the wizard cast this spell or made this item or did this.'' But, of course, the wizard only did this as they knew of the coming attack. But it's impossible to plan to be attacked every day of your life. And even more so it's impossible for a wizard to live a normal life(as if they were a real character, not a game construct).

They're called Scrolls. Wizards make them. They can be used to cast spells which they don't have actively memorized. They can be made relatively inexpensively, and can be used to cover any situational spell necessity. So yes, a Wizard CAN have access to virtually every spell available to him at that level.

But the idea sounds fun. Anyone one want to make a 10th level wizard and let us 'wizards are not so powerful' types come up with a way to catch the wizard. And I'm, at least, not talking about the arena combat where the two foes stand ten feet away and say 'fight'; I'm talking about a wizard that is a living breathing character in a campaign. So the wizard is living a normal wizard life, not casting all defensive spells and waiting to be attacked every second of their life.

Wizard5/Incantatrix5 with Persist Spell and Craft Contingent Spell.

Persist Polymorth (Dire Tortoise). Spellcraft check should be trivial. If not, there's always getting an item of +10 to Spellcraft checks, or item familiars. Congratulations, there is literally no chance of surprising me, and I can always teleport/DimDoor away.

Odds of successfully being apprehended? Too low to meaningfully calculate.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost

Persist Polymorth (Dire Tortoise). Spellcraft check should be trivial. If not, there's always getting an item of +10 to Spellcraft checks, or item familiars. Congratulations, there is literally no chance of surprising me, and I can always teleport/DimDoor away.

Odds of successfully being apprehended? Too low to meaningfully calculate.

Odds of actually accomplishing anything noteworthy are also too low to meaningfully calculate. You can't study, craft items, go shopping, or do pretty much anything except eat and sit around as a Dire Tortoise, so while this does make the wizard impossible to ambush, it's an exceedingly unrealistic assumption for a 24/7 effect.

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Odds of actually accomplishing anything noteworthy are also too low to meaningfully calculate. You can't study, craft items, go shopping, or do pretty much anything except eat and sit around as a Dire Tortoise, so while this does make the wizard impossible to ambush, it's an exceedingly unrealistic assumption for a 24/7 effect.

Where does it say that a Dire Tortoise can't craft, study or go shopping?

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

Where does it say that a Dire Tortoise can't craft, study or go shopping?

The fact that it doesn't have hands, and can't talk? Hard to turn the pages of a book with tortoise-feet, and they don't have the vocal cords to make coherent speech.

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

The fact that it doesn't have hands, and can't talk? Hard to turn the pages of a book with tortoise-feet, and they don't have the vocal cords to make coherent speech.

Telepathy, Scholar's Touch, Hand of the Mage, Telekinesis, Mage Hand, Raven familiar...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Odds of actually accomplishing anything noteworthy are also too low to meaningfully calculate. You can't study, craft items, go shopping, or do pretty much anything except eat and sit around as a Dire Tortoise, so while this does make the wizard impossible to ambush, it's an exceedingly unrealistic assumption for a 24/7 effect.

I can study or craft items in my MMM/Rope Trick. I can also cast spells. Is there anything else I really need to do? If I need to do business, I Astral Projection through PB,L: Nightmare and purchase items with my projection.

[bloodtide]

Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost

They're called Scrolls. Wizards make them. They can be used to cast spells which they don't have actively memorized. They can be made relatively inexpensively, and can be used to cover any situational spell necessity. So yes, a Wizard CAN have access to virtually every spell available to him at that level.

Scrolls take time and money, so a wizard can't just 'have a bunch'. And even if a wizard had, say 100 scrolls, how would they carry and keep track of them?

Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost

Wizard5/Incantatrix5 with Persist Spell and Craft Contingent Spell.

Persist Polymorth (Dire Tortoise). Spellcraft check should be trivial. If not, there's always getting an item of +10 to Spellcraft checks, or item familiars. Congratulations, there is literally no chance of surprising me, and I can always teleport/DimDoor away.

Odds of successfully being apprehended? Too low to meaningfully calculate.

So why is this so great? So your now a huge dire tortoise with no spellcasting ability(as spells are a class feature) and just 10 contingent spells. Why is the lightning strike so great an ability? If a foe walked up to the dire tortoise and attacked they would be flat footed on the frist round of combat. Is that such a big deal? (and I'm a common sense type DM so I'd say that the lightning strike ability only effects the dire tortoise physical attacks and not things like a contingent spell)

So why is this so great?

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost

I can study or craft items in my MMM/Rope Trick. I can also cast spells. Is there anything else I really need to do? If I need to do business, I Astral Projection through PB,L: Nightmare and purchase items with my projection.

At that point, why do you need to be a dire tortoise in the first place? You're already invincible 3x over, and immune to being captured anyways.

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by bloodtide

Scrolls take time and money, so a wizard can't just 'have a bunch'. And even if a wizard had, say 100 scrolls, how would they carry and keep track of them?

Haversack, XP is a river, nothing better to spend gold on.

So why is this so great? So your now a huge dire tortoise with no spellcasting ability(as spells are a class feature) and just 10 contingent spells. Why is the lightning strike so great an ability? If a foe walked up to the dire tortoise and attacked they would be flat footed on the frist round of combat. Is that such a big deal? (and I'm a common sense type DM so I'd say that the lightning strike ability only effects the dire tortoise physical attacks and not things like a contingent spell)

So why is this so great?

You do not lose your class features when Polymorphed.

[bloodtide]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

You do not lose your class features when Polymorphed.

Well, to use the Optimization Cheep Cheat Trick #2, where you can grab anything from any Wizards book (As the dire tortoise example does with things from at least three books). I would point out that the Polymorph Subschool from the Players Handbook II says ''the target losses it's class features''. And you will note that spellcasting is listed as a class feature in the Players Handbook.

So, no spellcasting as a dire tortoise.

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by bloodtide

Well, to use the Optimization Cheep Cheat Trick #2, where you can grab anything from any Wizards book (As the dire tortoise example does with things from at least three books). I would point out that the Polymorph Subschool from the Players Handbook II says ''the target losses it's class features''. And you will note that spellcasting is listed as a class feature in the Players Handbook.

So, no spellcasting as a dire tortoise.

The Polymorph subschool explicitly does not take precedence over existing spell text. Alter Self, on which Polymorph is based, states:

You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form.

It is rather clear-cut. It is strange to complain about new books when you are not even familiar with the old ones.

Incidentally, you also explicitly keep your Spell-like, Supernatural and Extraordinary abilities, meaning that the Polymorph subschool rule only nerfs natural abilities. For instance, the Fighter would lose his bonus feats, and the Rogue his sneak attack. But spellcasting is explicitly exempt.