League of Legends XXXII: Cupcakes and Kittens and Squirrels. Oh my!

[Dogmantra]

Originally Posted by Math_Mage

Not having the coding to answer, I'll point out that eliminating HUD walls and shrinking the HUD size should eliminate MOST problems. There IS an option to flip the minimap to the left side IIRC, but that probably doesn't help your situation. You probably know and have implemented both of these, but just in case...

Turns out you can shrink the HUD even more than I thought you could. Didn't shrink it any further 'cause it got a bit unreadable, but I think I may cut out the wall, removing it doesn't seem to look as bad as I thought it did.

[Arbitrarity]

Originally Posted by Math_Mage

So I see in Arb's post that he builds BC/BT/Trinity Corki. How does this stack up with the IE/PD/LW+ early Vamp Scepter build I've been running? I don't really want or expect the actual maths for this, being horrendously complicated thanks to Gatling Gun, but the stats at least come out to...

BC+BT+TF: 145-185 AD, 60% AS, 15% crit, 12-20% LS, 150 dmg proc, 15-45 armor shred, *assorted extra stats*, 10885g
IE+PD+LW+VS: 120 AD, 55% AS, 55% crit, 12% LS, 50% crit dmg, 40% armor pen, 10265g

Hum. Crit vs proc, armor shred vs. % armor pen, and the Trinity slow+health+mana...tough.

Then again, maybe I should just build BC, IE, Trinity.

EDIT: Removed the Doran's Blades as otherwise the second build has 6 items before boots.

I actually don't build that. I was theorycrafting it, as a proposed Corki build. Before I wrote that post, I remembered playing solo mid Corki with Manamune/Trinity/stuff. I was moving away from that in games, towards more "trinity rush, AD stuff", and I've moved to more traditional full carry builds, especially after IE got buffed.
It tends to skew his damage strongly towards killing squishy targets, but reduced his ability to kill high-armor targets. Not sure exactly what the breakeven is (I'd need to do calculations differently) but it's fairly high (150+ armor). Very good if you have other sources of physical damage on your team, or armor shreds (Wukong, J4, Karthus); I consider it worthwhile most of the time then. The basic problem is that it costs a lot more than LW, and doesn't scale as well when tanks get 250+ armor.
I build Corki by getting Boots+2 Dorans, followed by either BF sword into IE, or Sheen/Phage followed by Phage/Sheen into Trinity, followed by the other item. I often mix in a Vampiric Scepter somewhere, and may sell a Doran's around Phage if I have no item slots. After that, I tend towards getting some survivability. GA is good, QSS is situationally good. If I don't need it, then
Sheen and Phage are great for early lane dominance. Sheen lets you spam a bit more, and improves your damage substantially. Phage makes you tankier, and gives some helpful utility. BFS is less useful for early dominance.

[aethernox]

Originally Posted by Djinn_in_Tonic

From your screenshot though...well, their top (who I assumed you got a number of kills on, given his deaths) apparently never bought wards...and you NEED to buy vision wards if Twitch is ganking. So that seems less of an indicator of general use of jungle Twitch (I'm not saying it does work...see above), but more that in this case your opponents didn't know how to prevent Twitch ganks.

His post implies that he has several more games that back up his success here, so dismantling the one example he posted doesn't make a great deal of sense.
Additionally, tone that Elo down by two or three hundred points and no one is going to be warding anyways.

Also, your build is weird.

Regarding Corki builds:
Doublelift is of the opinion that the Trinity Force build is only viable if you're not your teams only major threat and you're snowballing hard. It makes sense, considering that Triforce exchanges lategame presence for midgame presence.
The single largest proponent for Black Cleaver doesn't even build it too much anymore; it really depends on comp. Things that make cleaver potentially worthwhile: multiple friendly physical damage threats, games that expect to end early rather than late, bruiser-lite enemy comps.

[Math_Mage]

Hrm. Well, I've only run IE/TF Corki once thus far. I felt I lacked AS, which is why I think BC makes sense in that setup. With a Vamp Scepter that's probably the ultimate build for 1v1ing the enemy carry. However, as a primary tank-killer damage threat for my team, I'll often want LW, in which case PD has to be the other item as TF simply doesn't provide the autoattack damage output (doubly important with Corki's passive). I guess I'll keep working on that.

[Arbitrarity]

Originally Posted by aethernox

Regarding Corki builds:
Doublelift is of the opinion that the Trinity Force build is only viable if you're not your teams only major threat and you're snowballing hard. It makes sense, considering that Triforce exchanges lategame presence for midgame presence.
The single largest proponent for Black Cleaver doesn't even build it too much anymore; it really depends on comp. Things that make cleaver potentially worthwhile: multiple friendly physical damage threats, games that expect to end early rather than late, bruiser-lite enemy comps.

Sounds about right. I'd note that Trinity can enable you to snowball, because it's a lot of midgame power. I still have difficulty getting PD over Trinity though. 25% AS, 3% MS, and 15% crit (even though with IE, the crit alone is a 14% increase in damage) doesn't feel as good as Trinity utility. And if I'm getting Trinity, I might as well get it early.

Multiplying, PD gives 30% better AA dps (on Zerkers/IE) (2*AD to 2.6*AD DPS), if we ignore the 30 AD as the cost differential. Sheen procs close this gap (half it, approximately), and IE/PD scales up better with additional damage/crit

[aethernox]

Originally Posted by Arbitrarity

Sounds about right. I'd note that Trinity can enable you to snowball, because it's a lot of midgame power. I still have difficulty getting PD over Trinity though. 25% AS, 3% MS, and 15% crit (even though with IE, the crit alone is a 14% increase in damage) doesn't feel as good as Trinity utility. And if I'm getting Trinity, I might as well get it early.

Multiplying, PD gives 30% better AA dps (on Zerkers/IE) (2*AD to 2.6*AD DPS), if we ignore the 30 AD as the cost differential. Sheen procs close this gap (half it, approximately), and IE/PD scales up better with additional damage/crit

You also disregarded the huge difference in price point.

[Arbitrarity]

Originally Posted by aethernox

You also disregarded the huge difference in price point.

if we ignore the 30 AD as the cost differential.

Sure. You'll finish the item faster, which is kind of important. I suspect PD is stronger than Phage/Zeal, after IE is built, but don't feel like calculating that right now.

[toasty]

To be honest, I've never been a fan of Triforce. In fact, I'm of the opinion that it was pretty much only good on champions (specifically, Bruisers) that were overpowered. The exception to this might be Udyr or GP. And on both I think there are better builds. GP its a decent item because Sheen and Zeal and Phage are actually good on him, but if I want DPS I'd rather get an IE.

But I mean, honestly: Jarvan? Get Ghostblade! Lee Sin? Get BT! Irelia: Get Wits End. Though, actually, Triforce kinda makes sense on Irelia if you know how to use sheen procs off of ult in a teamfight properly, because then all the items are actually USEFUL. However, Wits End followed by Fratmas is probably almost always a good build.

Another thing about Triforce rushes that bother me is that you are very squishy at the end of laning. It takes about 20 minutes to farm Triforce, longer than an IE because while they are about the same price (?) you also have to buy wards and lots of pots to win your lane, while the AD carry can often rely on heals and the support warding. So at 20 minutes you have 5 characters 1 of which will be tanky, maybe, and that's your jungler. Unless you simply burst the enemy down you're gonna lose a lot of fights. That's why I prefer mid-game items on Bruisers, unless you're GP and you're stomping your lane. Then you can build an IE an be k.

As to AD carries: Triforce is a ****ty item. Why? Because AD carries are meant to scale into late game. Even if Triforce was a good item (which it really ... isn't) its not an item that is meant to scale multiplicative into late game. AD carries do that. So buy items like IE/BT/Phantom Dancer/Last Whisper and scale into late game and kill everyone. Over and over again. Leave utility to the rest of the team.

[Math_Mage]

I guess if I ever start using an autoattack-focused melee AD carry, I'll run IE, BC, BT, Ghostblade, and TF for a pretty much perfect offensive stat array. But I don't know what melee AD carry can afford to be that squishy.

[Arbitrarity]

What happened to "win lane, win game" Toasty?

Also, Phage procs are non-trivial utility. They regularly get me kills and save my life.

[Math_Mage]

Originally Posted by Arbitrarity

What happened to "win lane, win game" Toasty?

Also, Phage procs are non-trivial utility. They regularly get me kills and save my life.

I guess it comes down to "rush Trinity or don't bother," which isn't much different from what's been said so far.

After all, late game you can just hog red buff. Preferably theirs.

Also, the thing about TF is it's too expensive to be a "win lane win game" item, but it's not multiplicative enough to be a "win late game" item. It's...in between. Which is fine, if you're fed, because then it becomes an affordable "do everything" item.

[toasty]

Originally Posted by Math_Mage

I guess if I ever start using an autoattack-focused melee AD carry, I'll run IE, BC, BT, Ghostblade, and TF for a pretty much perfect offensive stat array. But I don't know what melee AD carry can afford to be that squishy.

Generally speaking, its impossible. Obviously certain heroes like Trynd can deal with it. But in my experience you can build pretty squishy on heroes like GP and survive through lifesteal and W IS OP until like the 25 minute mark or so.

The best rule of thumb is 1 offensive item. The best time to rush this is either Instantly to snowball the lane or after you've built defensive items and ... buying more defense isn't really cost effective (for instance, if you have a Frozen Heart and FoN, building a Bveil or Sunfire probably won't be worth it).

Rushing offensive items is ... kinda risky, so most people opt to build hybrid defensive and offensive items. Its safe.

I think the best way to think about bruisers, and itemization in general is "what makes me a threat?" Damage makes you a threat, as does utility. Defensive items do not make you a threat. HOWEVER, Actualized damage output requires defensive items and/or abilities.

[Arbitrarity]

Originally Posted by Math_Mage

Also, the thing about TF is it's too expensive to be a "win lane win game" item, but it's not multiplicative enough to be a "win late game" item. It's...in between. Which is fine, if you're fed, because then it becomes an affordable "do everything" item.

Give me a "lategame" carry build. If I put it on Corki or Ezreal, and replace the inevitable PD with TF, let's see what happens to their DPS.
I still have that spreadsheet.

Also, be the Riven. Rush the Bloodthirster.

[Math_Mage]

Well, you know the traditional DPS build is IE PD LW BT, so you don't need my help figuring out the late-game carry build. Of course, that puts the AD carry halfway to a GA, so, y'know, tradeoffs.

Originally Posted by toasty

I think the best way to think about bruisers, and itemization in general is "what makes me a threat?" Damage makes you a threat, as does utility. Defensive items do not make you a threat. HOWEVER, Actualized damage output requires defensive items and/or abilities.

I'd even generalize a little more than that. "What makes MY TEAM a threat?" If the answer is that pure defense Mundo lets his team towerdive anytime post-6, then there you go. Of course, pure defense Mundo still has plenty of damage till late.

[Arbitrarity]

Originally Posted by Math_Mage

Well, you know the traditional DPS build is IE PD LW BT, so you don't need my help figuring out the late-game carry build. Of course, that puts the AD carry halfway to a GA, so, y'know, tradeoffs.

K. Refilling spreadsheet. Considering we're discussing "lategame", I don't care about gold efficiency. Slot efficiency is what counts. Calculating with flat AD runes, because that seems to be the meta (this favors PD slightly)
Adding double-pot, and using DPS average, to avoid discrete breakpoints.
Corki, standard build: 1158
Trinity build: 1070
DPS difference (averaged): 8.2%
Ezreal, standard build: 1209
Trinity build: 1117
DPS difference (average): 8.2%

8.2% additional DPS seems about right. Whether it's worth the mana, slow, health, and better poke is debatable.

[Eldariel]

I never understood why some people counterpick themselves in ranked. Like, it's one thing to go for a lane neutral or a slightly negative lane 'cause you happen to play a given champion well, but who picks Vladimir against Yorick? It's like, you take the game's worst early laner, put it up against one of, if not the best early laner and expect to not get zoned out and lose all CS ever?

Yorick pushes to tower, kills jungler at red, comes back still ahead on CS, zones Vlad for a two level advantage, dives at impunity, easily fends off jungler ganks in 2v1 only actually dying when it's 3v1. I was just describing the last ranked game I played, btw. It's just like why, Vlad, why?

[Arbitrarity]

Originally Posted by Eldariel

I never understood why some people counterpick themselves in ranked. Like, it's one thing to go for a lane neutral or a slightly negative lane 'cause you happen to play a given champion well, but who picks Vladimir against Yorick? It's like, you take the game's worst early laner, put it up against one of, if not the best early laner and expect to not get zoned out and lose all CS ever?

Yorick pushes to tower, kills jungler at red, comes back still ahead on CS, zones Vlad for a two level advantage, dives at impunity, easily fends off jungler ganks in 2v1 only actually dying when it's 3v1. I was just describing the last ranked game I played, btw. It's just like why, Vlad, why?

I had a game where someone picked Nautilis into Riven solo top. And one Vlad into Olaf. Ughhhh.

Also, what do I want to pick into Olaf? I do tolerably well with Riven, but I tend to hit this point where I don't think I can 1v1 him (until later in the game). Am I not committing enough? I don't think that's the problem, but I might be wrong. Udyr does all right, I guess. Do I have any other options?

[aethernox]

Kennen, Ryze, Ahri, and... uhh.. what's wrong with picking Vlad into Olaf? It's a skill-based matchup, it can really swing wildly either way. You're Vladimir so he can't actually turn into the Reckless Swinging death-machine that ruins the matchup for most melee champions. Vlad vs Olaf is a lane that gets Vlad to level 7, which is really what he wants. You just have to play carefully and rush boots 2.

Edit:
Kog'Maw/Viktor free week. :3
I mid or feed.

[Eldariel]

Originally Posted by Arbitrarity

I had a game where someone picked Nautilis into Riven solo top. And one Vlad into Olaf. Ughhhh.

Also, what do I want to pick into Olaf? I do tolerably well with Riven, but I tend to hit this point where I don't think I can 1v1 him (until later in the game). Am I not committing enough? I don't think that's the problem, but I might be wrong. Udyr does all right, I guess. Do I have any other options?

Yorick, Rumble, Cassiopeia all do fine against Olaf too. Well, at least in my experience. I believe Riven should do passably against Olaf but it might be one of those weird Max E & Farm-lanes. I haven't played it often enough against competent Olafs to truly know (in general, I don't play toplane enough to know those match-ups by heart).

[Math_Mage]

I saw TRM pick Vlad into Yorick once. He did have to play warily, it's true, but dropping Yorick's minion aggro with brush is a lot easier as a ranged champ. And I would think that once Vlad gets Revolver/WotA, the additional minions would be totally meaningless, if not actually beneficial to Vlad.

Lee Sin should be a fine pick into Olaf; max W and his E shouldn't hurt that much, and your mobility lets you kite. Then, yeah, there's anyone who can poke him from range. Teemo wrecks Olaf, unless you let him ult onto you post-6; but Move Quick makes dodging axes a piece of cake even then, so Ghost-Ignite or Flash-Ignite Teemo should have little trouble.

[efdf]

Lee and Riven can do just fine against every top laner pretty much.

[Math_Mage]

Originally Posted by efdf

Lee and Riven can do just fine against every top laner pretty much.

and when they meet THE WORLD EXPLODES

[Eldariel]

Originally Posted by Math_Mage

and when they meet THE WORLD EXPLODES

That's probably the most technical melee lane in the game; tons of fun

[Qwertystop]

Third game as Nocturne. I had 4 kills and an assist when I got my first death.

Spoiler

[tyckspoon]

Originally Posted by Qwertystop

Third game as Nocturne. I had 4 kills and an assist when I got my first death.

I think that's the first time I've ever actually seen a Leviathan on anybody. Only 1 death, so I guess it was working for him, but he'd have been more useful with almost any other completed item in that space.

[Qwertystop]

As I remember, he got that when he realized that not only was he doing that well, but the only way for them to kill him was by getting him to use Cleanse, then chaining CC and maintaining Teemo blind and Ignites while attacking as much as they could without suiciding on Thornmail. Health would stop that enough for an ally to come in and kill them all.

At least that's the thought process I attribute to him.

[tyckspoon]

I can understand that thought process, especially if he picked it up early, but keeping it through the end game, when he doesn't even have it fully stacked? Warmogs would be more raw health, even if you never got another kill to start charging it. Frozen Mallet or Rylai's would have the same benefits in extra health plus some more damage and utility. Atma's would be more armor and turn all the health he already had into real damage. A Wit's End or Abyssal would give some more damage, even out his weaker MR (considering the enemy team has threeish not insignifcant sources of magic damage from Lux, Singed poison, and Teemo poison), and the Abyssal would aid the AP Trist and that Bloodrazor-sporting Nidalee. I'm just not seeing any reason to have kept the Leviathan around.

[fred dref]

I find it interesting that in an hour long game, the average farm is under 200.

[toasty]

Originally Posted by fred dref

I find it interesting that in an hour long game, the average farm is under 200.

Most people are bad at this game.

edit:
Win lane win game: this is the easiest way to win the game. But "win lane" is a relative term. Some heroes like Vladimir can effectively win the lane by farming, especially outfarming their opponent. Because Vlad pretty much outscales everyone. Of course if you die a lot that doesn't matter.

Some heroes really like snowballing, others liek playing carfully, etc.

[Frankelshtein]

Woo Jungle Fizz!

Spoiler

After stealing his red, I caught Jarvan for First Blood at level 3, jumping back over the Baron wall to avoid Vlad and Yi. I quickly ran down to bot for a kill on Xin, giving them a solid lead in-lane. From there, a bunch of river ganks lead into some very successful teamfights for the twenty-minute surrender

I've yet to have a negative score with Fizz. Strong ganks and crippling counterjungling make him deadly. I just need to get better at predicting whether or not the opposing jungler is starting at red.

EDIT: Shrunk screenshot.