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Old 04-19-2012, 04:47 PM   Top  -  End  -  #1
Person_Man
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Default [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

This is a re-write of an old homebrew class which I wrote up a while back and play tested. It's a class that's based around movement. Initially it sucked horribly at low levels, since most D&D combat takes place in very confined spaces. But after reworking some of the class abilities and adding a lot of new maneuvers, I think it has been vastly improved.

Special thanks to Cardea, who also play tested the class, had a fun time, and provided me with valuable feedback.

The Vanguard


"I really need to take the Endurance feat next time. Or the Run feat. Those would both be solid choices." ~Elan

Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d8

Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) ×4.

Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modifier.

Class Skills: The Vanguard's class skills are Balance, Climb, Concentration, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (Architecture), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Nature), Listen, Martial Lore, Move Silently, Profession, Spot, Survival, Swim, and Tumble.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Vanguard is proficient in all simple weapons, martial weapons, and light armor, but not shields.

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special Fast Movement Maneuvers Known Stances Known
1st+0 +0 +2 +0 Parkour, Fast Movement 10 4 1
2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Endurance, Dodge 10 5 1
3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Run 20 6 2
4th +3 +1 +4 +1 Mobility 20 6 2
5th +3 +1 +4 +1 Spring Attack 30 7 2
6th +4 +2 +5 +2 Skate Gravity 30 7 2
7th +5 +2 +5 +2 40 8 3
8th +6 +2 +6 +2 Pouncing Spring Attack 40 8 3
9th +6 +3 +6 +3 50 9 3
10th +7 +3 +7 +3 Rapid Skill Mastery 50 9 3
11th +8 +3 +7 +3 60 10 3
12th +9 +4 +8 +4 Evasive Skitter 60 10 3
13th +9 +4 +8 +4 70 11 4
14th +10 +4 +9 +4 Dauntless 70 11 4
15th +11 +5 +9 +5 80 12 4
16th +12 +5 +10 +5 Instant Velocity 90 12 4
17th +12 + 5 +10 +5 100 13 4
18th +13 +6 +11 +6 Freedom of Movement 110 13 4
19th +14 +6 +11 +6 120 14 4
20th +15 +6 +12 +6 Incomparable Speed 150 14 5

Maneuvers: You begin your career with knowledge of four martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to you are Lightning Fox, Desert Wind, and Tiger Claw. (At your DM's discretion, you may substitute Desert Wind or Tiger Claw for the Falling Star, Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand, or other disciples appropriate for your character). You learn additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown Table: The Vanguard. See Table 3-1 on pg. 39 of the Tome of Battle to determine the highest level maneuvers you can learn. Upon reaching 4th level and every even level thereafter, you can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of you already know, following the standard rules for doing so.

Maneuvers Readied: The Vanguard begins every combat with no maneuvers readied. At the start of his first turn as a Free Action he may ready one maneuver of his choice. At the start of each of his subsequent turns a Free Action, the Vanguard may ready one additional maneuver of his choice for every 30 feet that he has moved since the start of his last turn of this combat, up to a maximum of 1/2 his highest initiator level (minimum one, maximum ten). For example, a 6th level Vanguard would ready zero additional maneuvers if he moved less then 30 feet since the start of his last turn of this combat, one if he moved from 30-55 feet, two if he moves from 60-85 feet, and three if he moves from 90 feet or more. At the end of each combat and whenever the Vanguard is rendered Prone, Pinned, Immobile, Helpless, or Dead, he loses all readied maneuvers. The Vanguard may not ready a maneuver if that same maneuver was readied or used since the start of his previous turn.

Only the Vanguard's purposeful land based movement and jumping during combat counts toward this determination. Movement that results from the Vanguard being mounted, carried, bull rushed, attacked, riding a vessel, flight, swimming, interdimensional travel (such as Dimension Door, Teleport, or movement while Ethereal), or similar circumstances do not count towards the number of maneuvers the Vanguard may ready. For example, if the initiator was Bull Rushed by an enemy and failed, thus being pushed back, that movement would not count towards the number of maneuvers a Vanguard could ready. If the initiator attempted a Bull Rush attack against an enemy, succeeded, and choose to move along with his enemy, that movement would count. The Vanguard cannot ready maneuvers gained from this class before an encounter starts. His abilities are based on both mental and physical momentum, which rely on an awareness of real and immediate danger to build up and use.

Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st level stance from any discipline open to you. At your 3rd, 7th, 13th, and 20th Vanguard levels, you can choose one additional stance. Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expended, and you do not have to ready them. All the stances you know are available to you at all times, though you may only have one active at any given time. You can change the stance you are currently using as a Swift Action. A stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise stated in the stance description. Unlike maneuvers, you cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one you already know.

Fast Movement (Ex): At 1st level the Vanguard gains a bonus to his base land speed as shown on Table: The Vanguard. This bonus stacks with Fast Movement bonuses from all other sources, such as those provided by the Monk, Scout, Barbarian, Haste, Boots of Speed, etc. This ability only applies to the Vanguard's land speed, and not to any swim, fly, climb, burrow, or other movement form that he may possess, even if those speeds would otherwise be calculated using his base land speed. This ability only functions when the Vanguard is wearing no armor or light armor, and is not encumbered.

Parkour (Ex): One of the first lessons the Vanguard learns is that moving efficiently and in unexpected ways is just as important as moving quickly. At 1st level the Vanguard may traverse rooftops, stairs, walls, and other slanted or vertical surfaces without his movement being slowed or impaired, as long as he begins and ends his movement on a horizontal surface. If the Vanguard does not end his movement on a horizontal surface that he is normally capable of standing on, he falls at the end of his turn.

Passing between these surfaces (from floor to wall, from wall to wall, from rooftop to wall, etc) costs no movement, and the height he can achieve on the wall or other vertical surface is limited only by his movement. While moving on these surfaces the Vanguard may be targeted by attacks of opportunity of enemies within reach as normal (which the Vanguard may attempt to avoid as normal with Tumble). Similarly, the Vanguard may attack enemies within reach per the normal rules (with Spring Attack, maneuvers, etc) while using this ability. Many Vanguards take advantage of this ability by running up walls at an angle and then Jumping off to attack enemies from above, to power up certain stances and maneuvers, and to gain extra distance in their movement to ready additional maneuvers on the following round. This ability only functions when the Vanguard is wearing no armor or light armor, and is not encumbered.

Bonus Feats: At 2nd level the Vanguard gains Endurance and Dodge as bonus feats. At 3rd level he gains Run as a bonus feat. At 4th level he gains Mobility as a bonus feat. At 5th level he gains Spring Attack as a bonus feat. If the Vanguard already has any of these feats, or later gains them from another class or prestige class, he may choose another feat that he otherwise qualifies for in its place.

Skate Gravity (Ex): At 6th level the Vanguard gains the ability to move across difficult terrain (such as sand, snow, undergrowth, etc) and liquid surfaces of any type at his normal speed without having his movement slowed or impaired in any way. This includes the ability to move across acid, mud, oil, snow, quicksand, ice, and even lava as if they were normal terrain, and all terrain or liquid surfaces created by magic, psionics, Feats, class abilities, or any other effect. In addition, the DC's for Balance and Tumble Skill checks are not effected by the type of terrain that the Vanguard is moving across. And movement across liquid surfaces using this ability count as land based movement for the purpose of Lightning Fox maneuvers and stances. In addition, the Vanguard never takes damage from falling as long as he is not Immobile or Helpless.

The Vanguard is still effected by magic or other effects that otherwise reduces movement without effecting the terrain, such as Solid Fog or a net. The Vanguard still touches the terrain (rather then floating above it), but he moves so quickly and deftly that it does not hinder his movement. He would still take heat or contact damage from lava or acid, but he wouldn't take any damage from sinking into it. If he ever spends a round without moving at leave 30 feet, he sinks into liquid surfaces as normal. This ability only functions when the Vanguard is wearing no armor or light armor, and is not encumbered.

Pouncing Spring Attack (Ex): At 8th level the Vanguard gains the ability to make a full attack (instead of just an attack action) when he uses the Spring Attack feat or at the end of a Charge. In addition, the Vanguard can take a Move Action to move and then take his Standard Action at any point during that move. (As per Flyby Attack, but while moving on the ground).

Rapid Skill Mastery (Ex): At 10th level the Vanguard does not suffer any penalties to the Balance or Tumble Skills based on his movement speed, including accelerated movement, or using the Run, Charge, or other similar actions. He may also take 10 on all Balance, Tumble, and Jump Skill checks, even when threatened or rushed.

Evasive Skitter (Ex): At 12th level the Vanguard gains the Evasion ability. If he already has or later gains the Evasion ability from another class or prestige class, he instead gains Improved Evasion. This ability only functions when the Vanguard is wearing no armor or light armor, and is not encumbered.

In addition, as a Free Action during anyone's turn whenever the Vanguard successfully avoids all of the damage from an enemy's area of effect attack which targeted the Vanguard and required a Reflex Saving Throw, the Vanguard may move up to his movement speed to the closest unoccupied space of his choice that is adjacent to the outside edge of the area of effect (if such a space is available). He essentially runs outside of the blast area.

Dauntless (Ex): The Vanguard has run for so long that nothing wears him out. At 14th level, he becomes immune to all Fatigue and Exhaustion effects, and does not require normal sleep. He automatically passes all Constitution checks required to continue running and avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march, and may do so for any number of rounds. However, he must still rest and/or meditate to recover spells, psionics, soulmelds, vestiges, etc. In addition, the Vanguard becomes much more difficult to stop, and cannot be Tripped or otherwise rendered Prone against his will.

Instant Velocity (Ex): At 16th level the Vanguard gains the continuous ability to instantly change the velocity of his movement, turning with perfectly accurate control at will. The Vanguard is no longer required to move in a straight line whenever he Runs, Charges, or uses any class ability, maneuver, or stance which would otherwise require him to move in a straight line. This ability only functions when the Vanguard is wearing no armor or light armor, and is not encumbered.

Freedom of Movement (Su): At 18th level the Vanguard is effected by a continuous Freedom of Movement effect. This ability only function when the Vanguard is wearing no armor or light armor, and is not encumbered.

Incomparable Speed (Ex): The Vanguard may now Run as a Move and/or Standard Action, instead of a Full Round Action.

Last edited by Person_Man : 05-06-2013 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 04-19-2012, 04:48 PM   Top  -  End  -  #2
Person_Man
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Default [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

Lightning Fox Discipline

Speed and cunning are the keys to victory, especially when outnumbered or fighting against an enemy with superior strength. The Lightning Fox discipline involve moving as quickly as possible, running into and out of the fray. It strikes in a blink of any eye, and then vanishes from the enemy’s reach before they have a chance to counter attack.

The key Skill for Lightning Fox is Tumble. The associated weapons for Lightning Fox are the quarterstaff, guisarme, rapier, katana, unarmed strike, and all spears.

For any Lightning Fox maneuver or stance which allows or requires movement, only the purposeful land based movement and jumping during combat counts toward this determination. Movement that results from the Vanguard being mounted, carried, bull rushed, attacked, riding a vessel, flight, swimming, interdimensional travel (such as Dimension Door or Teleport), or similar circumstances do not count towards the number of maneuvers the Vanguard may ready. For example, if the initiator was Bull Rushed by an enemy and failed, thus being pushed back, that movement would not count towards the bonuses accrued by the Momentum stance. If the initiator attempted a Bull Rush attack against an enemy, succeeded, and choose to move along with his enemy, that movement would count.

But within that restriction, it is assumed that the Balance, Jump, and/or Tumble skills can be used normally during movement that occurs as part of any Lightning Fox maneuver or stance, usually to avoid attacks of opportunity.

Level 1:
Spoiler


Level 2:
Spoiler


Level 3:
Spoiler


Level 4:
Spoiler


Level 5:
Spoiler


Level 6:
Spoiler


Level 7:
Spoiler


Level 8:
Spoiler


Level 9:
Spoiler

Last edited by Person_Man : 03-01-2013 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 04-19-2012, 04:49 PM   Top  -  End  -  #3
Person_Man
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Default Re: [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

This spot reserved in case I need it. Post away!

Last edited by Person_Man : 04-19-2012 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 04-24-2012, 11:23 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
Cardea
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Default Re: [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

Hey Person_Man. Sorry for delayed response. RL likes to keep me busy.

I definitely like what you've done, and I really enjoy the capstone. Hopefully I can use this again at high levels.

Oddball question, though. Because of how the Vanguard gets his maneuvers, does this mean he wouldn't necessarily need the Adaptive Style Feat, because all of his readied maneuvers are changing constantly?
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:20 AM   Top  -  End  -  #5
Person_Man
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Default Re: [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardea View Post
Hey Person_Man. Sorry for delayed response. RL likes to keep me busy.

I definitely like what you've done, and I really enjoy the capstone. Hopefully I can use this again at high levels.

Oddball question, though. Because of how the Vanguard gets his maneuvers, does this mean he wouldn't necessarily need the Adaptive Style Feat, because all of his readied maneuvers are changing constantly?
You are correct. The Vanguard has no need for Adaptive Style.

In order to ready new maneuver(s), the Vanguard need only move at least 30 ft in combat. And in general, I hate "Feat Taxes" like Adaptive Style, Improved Binder, or Natural Spell. Feats should add new abilities, not modify existing abilities so that they work correctly.
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Old 04-28-2012, 02:02 AM   Top  -  End  -  #6
JKTrickster
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Default Re: [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

Great class! Some concerns but I'm trying to look over the math first.

First, your Bonus Feat entry doesn't match the table. Namely, Spring Attack and Mobility.

Second, why does constant Freedom of Movement come so late? I don't feel that it is too broken to move it up, the problem is that I just don't know where it should be moved to because every level has its own goodie right now. Ahh dilemma...

Lastly, Lightning Fox is a really heavy Bull Rush discipline, but it doesn't have any boosts that add a general bonus to Bull Rush or replacing the Str check with Dex. Why not? For example, Setting Sun allows Dex or St for Trip attacks.

Bull Rush is also limited to creatures within a certain size range, which really limits the monsters this character can adequately fight. Or am I not giving enough credit to the other two disciplines?

I simply feel that there should also be a maneuver that could get around that as well. As a standalone discipline, it seems to have much more flaws than the fighting styles of other disciplines, but doesn't seem to try to address them through maneuvers.

Last edited by JKTrickster : 04-28-2012 at 02:43 AM.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:16 AM   Top  -  End  -  #7
JKTrickster
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Default Re: [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

Mmm bump?

Wonder what anyone else thinks about this class?
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:25 AM   Top  -  End  -  #8
Person_Man
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Default Re: [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKTrickster View Post
Great class! Some concerns but I'm trying to look over the math first.

First, your Bonus Feat entry doesn't match the table. Namely, Spring Attack and Mobility.
Fixed the chart. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKTrickster View Post
Second, why does constant Freedom of Movement come so late? I don't feel that it is too broken to move it up, the problem is that I just don't know where it should be moved to because every level has its own goodie right now. Ahh dilemma...
Yeah, 18th level is a bit long to wait for Freedom of Movement. But note that the Scout gets it at 18th level as well, and that Tome of Battle classes in general don't have amazing base class abilities, because they're getting fully scaled maneuvers and stances. For example, the Swordsage only gets Improved Evasion at 17th level, and nothing at 18th or 19th. Past Mettle at 13th level, the Crusader gets nothing but more Steely Resolve and Smite uses. And the Warblade gets his Int to AoO at 15th level, a bonus Feat at 17th level, and nothing at 18th or 19th level. I don't want to make the Vanguard too powerful compared to other ToB classes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JKTrickster View Post
Lastly, Lightning Fox is a really heavy Bull Rush discipline, but it doesn't have any boosts that add a general bonus to Bull Rush or replacing the Str check with Dex. Why not? For example, Setting Sun allows Dex or St for Trip attacks.

Bull Rush is also limited to creatures within a certain size range, which really limits the monsters this character can adequately fight. Or am I not giving enough credit to the other two disciplines?

I simply feel that there should also be a maneuver that could get around that as well. As a standalone discipline, it seems to have much more flaws than the fighting styles of other disciplines, but doesn't seem to try to address them through maneuvers.
Take a look at the first level stance, Momentum. Through movement, it allows you to build up a bonus (up to your Dex modifier) to all damage, Bull Rush, Disarm, Overrun, Sunder, Trip, breaking item checks, Escape Artist Skill checks, and on any opposed check made to physically push or move an opponent or resist such an attempt.

So if you choose to use this stance, your bonus to most opposed checks will be 1d20 + size + Str + Dex + Feats + weapon properties + magic items. If you specialize in any particular check, then that's likely to be a very high number. And it won't just be for certain maneuvers (like Setting Sun) but for all such checks (for example, if you use Knock-Down or Knockback)

You're correct that Lightning Fox does have a fairly limited play style - you can move around very easily, Bull Rush/Trip/Overrun (with fairly effective bonus damage), and avoid attacks (there are a lot of counters). But when combined with other Disciplines, I've found that it's really quite balanced and fun.

But perhaps you are right. Do you have any specific additions you think I should make to round out the Discipline and make it more flexible?


Thanks a lot for the feedback. It is truly appreciated. If there are any other ideas or edits, please let me know. I'm still very much open to changing stuff around.

Last edited by Person_Man : 04-30-2012 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 04-30-2012, 07:03 PM   Top  -  End  -  #9
JKTrickster
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Default Re: [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

Ahh I see. That is true...I guess the FoM is fine at level 18 then. Also would this class prioritize Dex or Str? It seems to imply Dex but Str also helps with many of its abilities. What did you intend when you made this class?

Also just noticed that your table's stance progression is wrong too. Second stance is at 3rd level right?

Have you thought about adding the other feats in the Spring Attack line?

I think what can help diversify the discipline are some "close combat" maneuvers. Right now it has a huge dependence in being able to move in a straight line - but this results in the high base move speed hindering the class. Even in a relatively big and open plain, how often do you get to move 300 ft before hitting opponents? Obviously this is solved by class features at higher levels, but really you can have maneuvers for it as well.

For example, instead of "moving X in a straight line" (by the way, you misspell "straight" multiple times throughout your maneuvers. You should fix that ) you can use other criteria.

One criteria could be "when you are above your opponent by X feet". Why is this more close combat oriented? First of all, you are normally "boxed in" when there are walls and roofs around you. However, the Vanguard is one of the few classes that is able to freely move between floor, wall, and even ceiling with ease.

This means that even if the Vanguard is boxed in, she can just moved above her opponent and use this maneuver. Much more painless and provides a fun option on a tactical level.

You can think of other fun requirements as well. Basically, stressing the agile nature of mobility and the ability to attack from different angles to catch the opponent off guard. This allows more variety than "charge for X distance in a straight line". I think that is something that is not really represented in your discipline, which focuses a lot on just being able to cover large tracts of land at a quick pace.

Finally, I feel like you did a great job and I really look forward to how you might change this class!

EDIT:

Also another thing - your maneuver recovery system is a little awkward. It prohibits someone from readying the same maneuver twice in a row, even if they did NOT expend it in the previous round.

This penalizes the Vanguard for choosing too many of its options in one go, even when they are able to. For example, a level 20 Vanguard can easily reach 300 ft. But if they actually ready 10 maneuvers, they would only be able to ready 4 maneuvers the next round, even if they only used one or two.

This doesn't make a lot of sense. Instead, they should be prohibited from expending the same maneuver twice in a row. That is what you're aiming for after all right?


Ignore this. I thought each new round REPLACES the maneuvers readied. Nevermind.

Last edited by JKTrickster : 05-04-2012 at 01:36 AM.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:08 PM   Top  -  End  -  #10
JKTrickster
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Default Re: [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

Bump for great justice!

Other people should peach this too!

It's such a great concept!
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Old 05-04-2012, 02:37 AM   Top  -  End  -  #11
Batpope Scott
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Default Re: [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

This class looks great and I would personally allow it when I DM, bu one thing that worries me is the vorpal punch as a third level maneuver. Vorpal is an ability not to be had until epic levels in the base game and even with a fort save it seems a slight bit powerful because we've all had that bad roll.

Other than that, great job.
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Old 05-05-2012, 01:31 AM   Top  -  End  -  #12
JKTrickster
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Default Re: [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

Hmm it does allow a save though. Do you think that allows some lee way?
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Old 05-06-2012, 07:28 AM   Top  -  End  -  #13
Batpope Scott
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Default Re: [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

Some, but it IS a save or die for most creatures.
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Old 05-06-2012, 04:43 PM   Top  -  End  -  #14
JKTrickster
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Default Re: [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

And the movement? That seems hard to make in certain situations...

Also I wish other people would comment. This class truly deserves more views.
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Old 05-06-2012, 09:40 PM   Top  -  End  -  #15
Batpope Scott
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Default Re: [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

It just says run past them with the run action. You can end a run action anytime if I remember correctly and with max ranks in tumble and a good dex score those checks to avoid attacks are nothing because of the ability to ignore the penalty to tumble while running.
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:42 AM   Top  -  End  -  #16
Person_Man
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Default Re: [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKTrickster View Post
Ahh I see. That is true...I guess the FoM is fine at level 18 then. Also would this class prioritize Dex or Str? It seems to imply Dex but Str also helps with many of its abilities. What did you intend when you made this class?
My intent was to give the player many options to choose from. You can prioritize Strength, avoid maneuvers with Save DC's (although there are a few with Str based DC's in other disciplines), and be a strait melee build with some cool mobility options. You can prioritize Dex, use Weapon Finesse and maybe the Falling Star discipline, the Momentum stance, and maneuvers with Save DC's. You can prioritize both Str and Dex, and have very high opposed checks, but some MAD issues. You can even prioritize Wisdom, use Intuitive Strike and Wis based Swordsage disciplines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKTrickster View Post
Also just noticed that your table's stance progression is wrong too. Second stance is at 3rd level right?
Fixed. Thanks.


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Originally Posted by JKTrickster View Post
Have you thought about adding the other feats in the Spring Attack line?
It's certainly a possibility. Though I'd probably just add them as class abilities or maneuvers rather then Feats, because other classes really wouldn't have a use for them (since getting Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack are such piss poor feats), and I dislike "Feat taxes" (If a class "should" be capable of doing something, they should just be able to do it. They shouldn't have to pay an extra cost to do it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKTrickster View Post
I think what can help diversify the discipline are some "close combat" maneuvers. Right now it has a huge dependence in being able to move in a straight line - but this results in the high base move speed hindering the class. Even in a relatively big and open plain, how often do you get to move 300 ft before hitting opponents? Obviously this is solved by class features at higher levels, but really you can have maneuvers for it as well.

For example, instead of "moving X in a straight line" (by the way, you misspell "straight" multiple times throughout your maneuvers. You should fix that ) you can use other criteria.

One criteria could be "when you are above your opponent by X feet". Why is this more close combat oriented? First of all, you are normally "boxed in" when there are walls and roofs around you. However, the Vanguard is one of the few classes that is able to freely move between floor, wall, and even ceiling with ease.

This means that even if the Vanguard is boxed in, she can just moved above her opponent and use this maneuver. Much more painless and provides a fun option on a tactical level.
Well, you do have access to 2 other non-Lightning Fox disciplines of your choice, so you should always have something to do as long as you move enough to refresh your maneuvers. (And unlike the Swordsage and Warblade, refreshing your maneuvers is basically a free action as long as you make some effort to move around the battlefield. So you never "waste" a round on refreshing).

But I love the idea of having maneuvers focused on dropping on top of your enemy. Give me a little time to write and play test them, then I'll add them to the list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batpope Scott View Post
This class looks great and I would personally allow it when I DM, bu one thing that worries me is the vorpal punch as a third level maneuver. Vorpal is an ability not to be had until epic levels in the base game and even with a fort save it seems a slight bit powerful because we've all had that bad roll.

Other than that, great job.
It is a potent effect. But it's a Standard Action maneuver, so at most you're getting 1 chance to trigger it, it only triggers on a natural 20, and it allows a Saving Throw. I would say that it's considerably weaker then Hold Person or similar Save or Lose/Die effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batpope Scott View Post
It just says run past them with the run action. You can end a run action anytime if I remember correctly and with max ranks in tumble and a good dex score those checks to avoid attacks are nothing because of the ability to ignore the penalty to tumble while running.
You are correct about this. Run is a full round action (until your capstone ability) which allows you to move up to 4 times (or 5 times with the Run feat) your movement speed in a strait line. You can stop at any point during your Run. For the maneuvers that require a Run action, the point is that you have the option of starting very far away or ending your turn very far away from your opponent.



Thanks for the commentary everyone. It is appreciated.

Last edited by Person_Man : 05-08-2012 at 08:44 AM.
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Old 05-08-2012, 06:47 PM   Top  -  End  -  #17
JKTrickster
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Default Re: [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

Quote:
Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
My intent was to give the player many options to choose from. You can prioritize Strength, avoid maneuvers with Save DC's (although there are a few with Str based DC's in other disciplines), and be a strait melee build with some cool mobility options. You can prioritize Dex, use Weapon Finesse and maybe the Falling Star discipline, the Momentum stance, and maneuvers with Save DC's. You can prioritize both Str and Dex, and have very high opposed checks, but some MAD issues. You can even prioritize Wisdom, use Intuitive Strike and Wis based Swordsage disciplines.
Ahh I see. Definitely makes sense!



Quote:
But I love the idea of having maneuvers focused on dropping on top of your enemy. Give me a little time to write and play test them, then I'll add them to the list.
Yup that's what I thought too. Literally getting the drop on your opponents would be fun and hilarious. It would match the "mobile striker" feeling of the discipline too.
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:16 AM   Top  -  End  -  #18
Axier
Orc in the Playground
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Default Re: [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

Love the concept, want to try it. Would make a great dip or a solid full class. Have a build for a scrawny runt Kobold that is almost purely scout and message runner.

Side note, parkour should be worded better. It has the same problem as the psionic Up The Walls feat. A celing is a horizontal surface, so you wouldn't fall if you where upside down, becuase you are on a horizontal surface.

Not a major deal, as a DM would have to be RAW heavy to let it work like that anyway.
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Old 01-12-2013, 05:22 AM   Top  -  End  -  #19
lunaramblings
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Default Re: [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

I am still wading through everything but I have to agree with the other poster that said that vorpal at level 7 is a bit much.

Vorpal is not even close to available at those levels. And the fact that it only triggers on a Nat 20 is how Vorpal works anyway. level 3 Manuevers is about as far as I have gotten, so will look at it some more later when I have the chance. But I would highly suggest changing that ability.
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Old 05-12-2013, 12:45 PM   Top  -  End  -  #20
r2d2go
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Default Re: [3.5] The Flash: Vanguard Class & Lightning Fox Discipline

Not sure if this is a necro, but seeing as there was already a gap of 7 months, I figured a 5 month gap isn't terribad. Anyway, love the class and maneuvers! I always wanted a character that could run around lightning-fast and beat the life out of people, but Flyby Attack seemed to be a constant prerequisite. In response to the Closeline complaints, I think that Vorpal is really, really overpriced and that it's pretty much the same at any level. Even with a Dex-focused halfling, Closeline would only have about the save DC of a Int-focused wizard casting Hold Person or a similar spell - except it needs a natural 20 on a person with a head to activate. As such, I'd say it's much, much weaker than it's made out to be. I don't think many would take Closeline for the vorpal affect with such low chances, and even if they did take it then spam it like no tomorrow, they wouldn't get very far. Of course, it puts a little strain on the DM to make sure his bosses have decent fortitude or are headless, but it's hardly game-breaking. I'd say Cyclone is quite a bit worse at 18d6 damage as a swift action 6th level manuever. Maybe scale the height of the cyclone to the number of circles you go around the person, making them lower damage if they increase the radius of the cyclone, scaling the damage with increasing Fast Movement.

Last edited by r2d2go : 05-12-2013 at 01:11 PM.
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