OOTS #851 - The Discussion Thread

[Tobimaro]

Having played a bard in the 3.5 Living Greyhawk campaign, I can attest to Elan's being helpful by staying out of the way and lending support via Inspire Courage. I'm just wondering if Elan is high enough to have Inspire Greatness. That would really help out people like Roy and Belkar take down not-Thog.

[Terbovus]

Awesome.

[Skyner]

Maybe he got permission?

Either way, the team is doing well against him and Tarquin was completely thrown off by Elan. Rather suited well, he stated that the Bard class were the must underpowered class, and thanks to Elan doing nothing but boosting everyones status, they hit him hard. The fact that he wasted a turn staring probably didn't help.

[Forikroder]

Originally Posted by Skyner

Maybe he got permission?

Either way, the team is doing well against him and Tarquin was completely thrown off by Elan. Rather suited well, he stated that the Bard class were the must underpowered class, and thanks to Elan doing nothing but boosting everyones status, they hit him hard. The fact that he wasted a turn staring probably didn't help.

that wasnt his turn it was Elan, initiative order was
(surprise Round of tarquin)
Roy
Haley
Belkar
Durkon
Tarquin
Elan

Roy attacked first, then haley shot an arrow which got stabbed into belkar when he attacked, then durkon cast a spell then tarquin threw him, then Elan plays his lute then roy belkar and haley attack again

its possible the order will change if someone holds there action but it should in general remain like that until the LG joins the fight or the order/tarquin retreats and a new combat starts

[Killer Angel]

Originally Posted by Forikroder

that wasnt his turn it was Elan, initiative order was
(surprise Round of tarquin)
Roy
Haley
Belkar
Durkon
Tarquin
Elan

Roy attacked first, then haley shot an arrow which got stabbed into belkar when he attacked, then durkon cast a spell then tarquin threw him, then Elan plays his lute then roy belkar and haley attack again

Debatable.
The fight is more cinematic, Tarquin is doing a lot of actions, not restricted to his initiative.
Roy attacks, he trips him.
Haley - Belkar attack, Tarquin does the arrow trick.
Durkon casts, and ends being thrown away.

[coineineagh]

All of Not-Thog's indiscrepancies were too minor to be immediately noticed in battle. The OotS will not find removing an incapacitated Thog's helmet to confirm his identity a priority, because they will not even be aware of the issue.
It looks like Not-Thog will be incapacitated before Durkon attempts another spell, and figures out Thog didn't just roll a natural 20.
They are so dismissive and disdainful of this previously defeated foe, that they also won't care to see the look on the half-orc's face either. Tarquin chose his disguise well.

Nale, Sabine, and Zzt'dri will soon follow up with further attacks, and Z has proven especially dangerous to the grounded OotS. They will be far too distracted now and in the future to have the time to think about what happened in those few rounds of melee combat.

I'm guessing that Chancellor Kilkil and Malack were given specific instructions to remain unseen and rescue Tarquin after his defeat, and even Raise him, were he to be killed. This frontal assault by Tarquin was clearly planned out of curiosity, and serves no other purpose than information gathering. He will escape, and the order will remain none the wiser.

I'm impressed both by Tarquin's strategic planning and bravery, as well as the plot twist. It's a unique way of showing Tarquin's skill and genius. Tarquin doesn't have the weakness of arrogance and overconfidence that Nale has, but perhaps his love for his son, and addiction to drama and adventure, will be his undoing...
Whether the original Linear Guild were aware of Tarquin's planned stunt, is another matter entirely. I'm excited to see what will happen next...

[Grail]

Originally Posted by rgrekejin

Entering a threatened square does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Leaving one does. Roy left a square that Tarquin did not threaten (the one ten feet away from Tarquin) and entered one that he did (the one five feet away from Tarquin). This would not provoke an attack of opportunity. Same with Belkar.

Hold the Line allows the character to make an AoO against any opponent that charges him. This would definitely allow him to make an AoO against both and

Also, for all those that think that would have got Sneak Attack damage, it is possible, but only if she has the Opportunist special ability, and then only with a single arrow.

Even if she was next to Tarquin and was directly opposite an ally, you can only flank squares that you threaten, and you cannot threaten squares with a missile weapon, only a melee weapon.

Threatened Squares
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.

Flanking
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

Sneak Attack
If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

[Mr. Pants]

Tarquin spinned Durkon like a record

[Math_Mage]

Originally Posted by t209

P.S- Now I know why Dwarf got a bonus against Ogres (too dumb to hold the beard to throw him), Trolls (same as ogres), and goblins (not OOTS version size, the small size). No, even though they had beef with elves, they don't have bonus to elves.

Without commenting extensively on yet another strange reference, I'm just going to note that this doesn't make sense even as a tongue-in-cheek remark.

[t209]

Originally Posted by Math_Mage

Without commenting extensively on yet another strange reference, I'm just going to note that this doesn't make sense even as a tongue-in-cheek remark.

I deleted the previous post since I even don't know what to say either and currently confused to explain.

[Knaight]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pants

Tarquin spinned Durkon like a record

Right round?

[ti'esar]

Originally Posted by Math_Mage

Without commenting extensively on yet another strange reference, I'm just going to note that this doesn't make sense even as a tongue-in-cheek remark.

I wish this forum had a like button.

[rbetieh]

Why would Thog want to fight Not-Nale at all? I thought they were friends.

[t209]

Originally Posted by rbetieh

Why would Thog want to fight Not-Nale at all? I thought they were friends.

Because the Thog that you are seeing is Not Thog who is only know by Nale but not known by Not Nale.

[SevleyT]

I'm kind of curious as to Tarquin's plan regarding V. He was pretty well prepared for everyone in the Order (except Elan) and since he had every reason to expect V to be there, he probably had some trick up his sleeve to deal with a wizard.

I wouldn't doubt he has a reflex save good enough to dodge a fireball or the like, but what if V had employed a subtler means? I wonder what Tarquin would have done, maybe a tanglefoot bag like Miko used.

[Forikroder]

Originally Posted by Killer Angel

Debatable.
The fight is more cinematic, Tarquin is doing a lot of actions, not restricted to his initiative.
Roy attacks, he trips him.
Haley - Belkar attack, Tarquin does the arrow trick.
Durkon casts, and ends being thrown away.

it all makes sense as long as we assume that either A) tarquin has some feat allowing him to make AoOs more (not combat reflexs, some feat that lets him attack people who miss an attack on him or something) or B) tarquin somehow has 10 foot reach if we assume he did get an AoO on Roy and Belkar then everything makes perfect sense maybe they just got to overzealous with there jumping and charging and did leave one of his threatened squares

I'm kind of curious as to Tarquin's plan regarding V. He was pretty well prepared for everyone in the Order (except Elan) and since he had every reason to expect V to be there, he probably had some trick up his sleeve to deal with a wizard.

I wouldn't doubt he has a reflex save good enough to dodge a fireball or the like, but what if V had employed a subtler means? I wonder what Tarquin would have done, maybe a tanglefoot bag like Miko used.

he had enough information to figure out that V wasnt in the battle since the order was willing to get on the carpet and bring the battle to them without V, plus V would have been able to do alot more to assist them by removing the winds that they wouldnt resort to just keep pushing and hope

with tarquins information its easy enough to realise for some reason V is incapacitated

as for strategy, probably get close enough to put an axe through him, thats pretty much all a fighter can realistically do

[SevleyT]

What's the range like on a Ring of True Seeing though? i wouldn't think it implausible for him to consider that V was invisible and merely hiding - especially since V does have a propensity for using Invisibility - and I would think it implausible to not have some sort of plan to deal with a wizard.

[Snails]

Originally Posted by Grail

Hold the Line allows the character to make an AoO against any opponent that charges him. This would definitely allow him to make an AoO against both and

Also, for all those that think that would have got Sneak Attack damage, it is possible, but only if she has the Opportunist special ability, and then only with a single arrow.

Even if she was next to Tarquin and was directly opposite an ally, you can only flank squares that you threaten, and you cannot threaten squares with a missile weapon, only a melee weapon.

Haley seems to get Sneak Attacks that look a little implausible by the rules. Whatever. I doubt there is a better explanation than her combat concept is a pretty competent rogue archer, so she will just plain get sneaks attacks sometimes. I am okay with fudging the rules as long as it seems pretty clear we are not trying to be perfect.

Hold the Line seems to fit the smacking dealt against Belkar. I would also point out Elusive Target: Cause Overreach seems like a reasonable match for what happened to Roy.

While neither feat is Core, they are both solid, game balance reasonable feats from Complete Warrior.

[Grail]

Originally Posted by Snails

Haley seems to get Sneak Attacks that look a little implausible by the rules. Whatever. I doubt there is a better explanation than her combat concept is a pretty competent rogue archer, so she will just plain get sneaks attacks sometimes. I am okay with fudging the rules as long as it seems pretty clear we are not trying to be perfect.

I agree.

I was merely pointing out the rules, as there was a bit of ambiguity in some of the responses floating around. And lets face it, the DnD ruleset is one of the worst rpg rulesets going around, so if people can be free and easy with it for drama, I'm all for it. Hell, I know I like to bend the rules when running games for the sake of the story and that's a game where people are probably more inclined to expect hardcore adhesion to the rules. This is a comic, loosely based on a game.

[Marlowe]

Originally Posted by Knaight

Right round?

Right, right, round, round.

[Forikroder]

Originally Posted by SevleyT

What's the range like on a Ring of True Seeing though? i wouldn't think it implausible for him to consider that V was invisible and merely hiding - especially since V does have a propensity for using Invisibility - and I would think it implausible to not have some sort of plan to deal with a wizard.

theres really only two possible ways for Tarquin to see the scenario

1) V is somehow incapacitated, either still plane shifted, got too heavily damaged from Zs bombardment or somehow occupied in the temple and cannot join the combat, if V could fight they would not be trying to brute force there way through magic and putting the entire party on a magic carpet to try and bring the fight to them

2) V is currently hiding in a clever ploy to make the LG think its actually scenario 1 in order to lul them into a false sense of security and there suicidal behaviour is just a ruse to try and sell the illusion

since #2 is the dumbest battle plan ever its obviously #1 it wouldnt be hard to tell that V is for some reason absent

and hes stilla high level fighter hes tough enough to survive a wizards spells long enough for some arcane back up and might have buffs and items to defend himself from spells

[Kish]

Originally Posted by Snails

Haley seems to get Sneak Attacks that look a little implausible by the rules. Whatever.

Considering Haley yells "Sneak Attack!" whenever she gets a sneak attack and she is not yelling it here, and that she wouldn't be getting Sneak Attacks here by D&D rules, and that the only reason I can see to think she's getting sneak attacks at all here is to think she can't attack without it being a sneak attack, I have to say "bzuh?" to that.

[Killer Angel]

Originally Posted by Forikroder

it all makes sense as long as we assume that either A) tarquin has some feat allowing him to make AoOs more (not combat reflexs, some feat that lets him attack people who miss an attack on him or something) or B) tarquin somehow has 10 foot reach if we assume he did get an AoO on Roy and Belkar then everything makes perfect sense maybe they just got to overzealous with there jumping and charging and did leave one of his threatened squares

I would go for the former. Yeah, it could be.

[Forikroder]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Hold_the_Line

Tarquin could ahve something like this (heard it mentioned earlier so thought id link it) but he probably has another feat as well since Roy got to attack before he got tripped (though that could jsut be Rich choosing to draw Roy attacking so the trip makes mroe sense)

if he does have this feat then it makes sense that he hasnt used his axe as much since hed want to use his AoO's to force his opponent to charge again whenever possible

[rbetieh]

Originally Posted by t209

Because the Thog that you are seeing is Not Thog who is only know by Nale but not known by Not Nale.

That wasn't the point of the question, this is something that Elan should be thinking about, now that he does that thinking thing....I'm surprised he didn't try Illusions or Diplomacy since those are his two usual tactics.

[Forikroder]

Originally Posted by rbetieh

That wasn't the point of the question, this is something that Elan should be thinking about, now that he does that thinking thing....I'm surprised he didn't try Illusions or Diplomacy since those are his two usual tactics.

its interesting, he seems to have reverted to back in the dungeon when all he could do was buff the aprty with his song instead of post-dashing swordsman when he used his semi-competent combat abilities to join in the fight

i wonder if his recent fight against Tarquin and Nale/Sabine made him rethink how competent he is and how to best support the party

[Snails]

Originally Posted by Kish

Considering Haley yells "Sneak Attack!" whenever she gets a sneak attack and she is not yelling it here, and that she wouldn't be getting Sneak Attacks here by D&D rules, and that the only reason I can see to think she's getting sneak attacks at all here is to think she can't attack without it being a sneak attack, I have to say "bzuh?" to that.

I was unclear.

Haley may or may not be getting Sneak Attacks. Looking at the rules for guidance does not clarify the situation because she does not seem to follow the rules.

You are probably correct she is not getting Sneak Attacks here. (I am not confident she would always yell "Sneak Attack!" but it is circumstantial evidence in your favor.)

[Snails]

Originally Posted by Forikroder

its interesting, he seems to have reverted to back in the dungeon when all he could do was buff the aprty with his song instead of post-dashing swordsman when he used his semi-competent combat abilities to join in the fight

i wonder if his recent fight against Tarquin and Nale/Sabine made him rethink how competent he is and how to best support the party

Dashing Elan may be more than a match for Nale, but he is still second string. If Roy or Belkar or Roy+Belkar cannot handle Not Thog then he really should keep his rapier in its scabbard. Buffing the party is a fine thing to do in a combat that is not expected to be over soon.

[Peelee]

Originally Posted by Marlowe

Right, right, round, round.

Like a record, baby.

As to Kish wondering why people think sneak attack, (and so far as I know, this applied only to myself), I only ever played Sorc and DMed without rogues or other SA classes, so I'm not up on the SA rules. I did argue in favor of a SA based on contextual knowledge supplied by others, and was very quickly proven wrong on a requirement for it that had not come up yet.

To Snail, yelling Sneak Attack probably wouldn't be the most compelling evidence, in most cases, but as that seems to be the only way of really showing that there was a sneak attack is for the perpetrator to say it, I'd also agree that it makes sense for them to say it every time. So strongly circumstantial, it would appear.

To my phone, make it easier to multi quote and I'll let you of of your pocket more.

[Forikroder]

Originally Posted by Peelee

Like a record, baby.

As to Kish wondering why people think sneak attack, (and so far as I know, this applied only to myself), I only ever played Sorc and DMed without rogues or other SA classes, so I'm not up on the SA rules. I did argue in favor of a SA based on contextual knowledge supplied by others, and was very quickly proven wrong on a requirement for it that had not come up yet.

To Snail, yelling Sneak Attack probably wouldn't be the most compelling evidence, in most cases, but as that seems to be the only way of really showing that there was a sneak attack is for the perpetrator to say it, I'd also agree that it makes sense for them to say it every time. So strongly circumstantial, it would appear.

To my phone, make it easier to multi quote and I'll let you of of your pocket more.

Bozzok was specifically cut of from saying sneak attack every time Haley killed his flanker so i think its safe to say that if we hear them say sneak attack then tehy did and otherwise they didnt