General Exalted Discussion Thread X: Playground Cosmic Principle

[Lord Raziere]

I pronounced Sidereal "Side-real", and Autocthon as "Auto-thon", but I used to pronounce it "Auto-chith-on"

[Qwertystop]

ANyone ever seen a better (read: more humorous) description of Exalted's Fate than what is in the Manual of Exalted Power: Sidereals?

Specifically, the bit about up remaining up instead of down, sideways, or purple.

Actually... That would be interesting, a game where the pattern spiders have just started ignoring random basic threads.

[TheCountAlucard]

I'm going to disagree with you there on principle.

[Gensh]

Woo! Part 2 of my documentary is finished. And I still can't maintain a single narrator voice.

[aetherialDawn]

Originally Posted by Lochar

I posted this on the Exalted boards in a thread about the limitations of Lunar excellencies, shapeshifting, trueforms, and whatnot.

About three posts later, the thread blew up between other people being asshats. I'm fairly certain my post was never even read.

So Playgrounders, what do you think?

Spoiler

Lunars are defined by their relationships. How they interact with the world around them, and the world defines them as well.

A Lunar using an Excellency may normally add no more than his Attribute in dice to a roll. However, if his action defends one of his intimacies he may add Attribute+(Lower of Essence or closest resonating virtue) as an Obvious effect.

In defense of their motivation, it becomes Attribute+ the higher of the above.


The Solar Mate is a glaring exception. Defending their Solar Mate is akin to defending their motivation and the Lunar may add Attribute+(Higher of Essence or closest resonating virtue)+ any dots in Solar Bond.

The Wyld Infection

Spoiler

As their intimacies and motivation are their strength, they are also the Lunar's weakness as well.

Destruction of the object of a Lunar's positive intimacy, be it a person, an ideal, or a place, when the Lunar could have conceivably prevented it inflicts a number of dice of Wyld infection equal to the virtue that most closely resonates with the intimacy. Due to the Great Curse, if the virtue tied to their Limit Break condition is higher, they instead gain a number of dice equal to that virtue instead.

The shattering of a motivation is a more horrendous thing, and inflicts dice equal to their Essence + resonating Virtue, with the same exception for the Great Curse.

The loss of a Solar Mate when the Lunar should have protected them is the same as the shattering of a Motivation, plus additional dice equal to their Solar Bond rating.

Infection Dice can only be removed with the replacing of the lost and destroyed intimacies, and as such Lunars find it very easy to create new Intimacies, and consider their Conviction one less for the required number of scenes to build a new positive Intimacy so long as they have more than one Wyld Infection dice in their pool.

Gaining a new intimacy reduces the number of dice in their pool by the rating of the virtue that the intimacy resonates with. The condition of the pull of Wyld energy is something wholly a part of the Lunar Exaltation, and the pool may never go below one die. Luna is the opposite of the stability of Creation, after all.

These dice transcend the death of the Lunar, and many times since the Usurpation a newly Exalted Lunar may end up burdened with the losses of the previous holder of his Exaltation. In this way, the infection seems to target even the youngest of the Lunar Exalted.

And since the Lunar Exaltation is gained through survival, many a times does the Lunar Exalt even as he loses those around him.

So what about Shapeshifting?

Spoiler

Wyld Infection dice are rolled for every shapeshift. Wyld Infection dice are not gained for each shapeshift, even for the casteless.

Additionally, for those without moonsilver tattoos, shapeshifting is an altogether different experience. An untattooed Lunar finds he has no spirit shape, but also has very few limitations on his choice of shape. The hunt for Heart's Blood is unnecessary as they may take whatever form they choose. In game terms, the Lunar is considered to automatically have the following Knacks, so long as they meet the requirements: Humble Mouse, Emerald Grasshopper, Towering Beast, Prey's Skin Disguise.

With no spirit shape, the untattooed find they are never form locked when spending motes of Essence. However, they find that the forms they take are solely bound by the strengths of themselves.

Without considering any other charms, the Lunar finds himself limited to the lesser of the forms Attributes or his own. As the Lunar explores his own gifts from Luna, he finds he grows in power in the forms he takes. For every Charm of an Attribute, the Lunar's shapeshifted forms gain a possible dot as well.

IE: Sleeping Tiger is an untattooed Lunar Exalt with Str 5, Dex 5, and Sta 4. He has three Str Charms, two Dex, and five Sta Charms. Deciding to take the form of a Siaka (12/4/8), Sleeping Tiger finds he has 8/5/8 for physical stats. He may spend motes on his Excellencies up to his normal, unmodifed human stats.

Note that Sleeping Tiger has his Strength + the number of Str charms (5+3 str charms, not as strong as the Siaka), Dex 5 (4+1 dex charm, hitting his own personal Dex), and 8 Stamina (4+4 Sta charms, hitting the Siaka's stamina)

An untattooed Lunar with Deadly Beastman Transformation may choose any form to mix with to create the DBT form.

So what's the point of Form-Fixing Rituals?

Spoiler

The Form-Fixing ritual abates the Wyld Infection dice to it's lowest point, 1 die, though the dice never vanish and still build as Intimacies are lost and gained. As one die can never roll higher than an Exalt's starting Essence, the Lunars consider the issue of Wyld Infection resolved. However, the Form-Fixing ritual fixes more than just their caste and Wyld Infection.

The Ritual locks them into a spirit shape, and locks the number of animal forms they may take. Any form they have not previously taken are locked away as well, requiring the ritual of the hunt to experience the form.

Even a tattooed Lunar retains the Knacks listed under Shapeshifting above, though they are fully bound by the rules of Shapeshifting as given in MoEP: Lunars, having lost the fluidity of Luna's gifts.

Meta-Info

Spoiler

The Lunar Exalted do not know the cause of the Wyld mutations, only assume that it was caused by their retreat to the Wyld. They do not know that they only prolong their issues with the Form-Fixing tattoos, and truly at this point, some Exaltations bear the burden of so much loss of intimacies that the Ritual is their only hope of truly functioning and possibly fixing the issue.

I'd say this seems okay, except for three problems:
One, the Exaltation-transferred wyld dice don't make sense when applied. They either get hit with thousands of years worth of "Shapeshifting will screw you over" rendering each starting Lunar a chimaera far too quickly... Or something needs to change.

Two, it's too extensive in description. You're implying setting changes when this is really only mechanical; this will put off people who could have otherwise used it as a simple fix. As it's mostly a good fix, I'd rather see it used by those who like it. I especially like the dice cap changes.

Three, Luna isn't opposite to stability as the Wyld is. She is the envoy to the Wyld, she is the keeper of the border between stable and unstable, she decides where the chaos begins, she is not wholly native to Creation but also to the Other of Oramus - but she is not and never has been a creature of the Wyld. She oversees the borders between Creation and the Wyld; she commands the forces of the Wyld with ease as well. But she is not, herself, Wyld. She is free rather than disordered, and she is a mirror image of Creation rather than anathema to it. I simply must disagree with you on the idea of Luna being of the Wyld; she is indeed the envoy to the Wyld, and the Goddess of the Wyld insofar as Creation has one, but she is not of the Wyld itself, but of her own freedom.



As for good points: Again, it's mechanically sound in most concerns - although the cross-Exaltation effects just plain aren't. I also, again, like the dice cap modifications. It makes Solar Bond more worthwhile too.
The attribute modifications for how forms work are also quite good. I like that a Casteless/unfixed Lunar doesn't have a 'spirit shape' - especially since nothing says I can't have a signature shape. If I choose to appear as a red-and-gold wolf, well, that's what I choose to appear as.

It might be a little too open on what forms you can take; perhaps just require the animal to have actually been seen as a natural creature. That way my personal spirit shape is also still mine; anyone can see "A Wolf" but I'm the one who went out and found the red-and-gold one to copy - or perhaps made it myself with a knack as a 'signature shape' (opening up the possibility of repurchases for more such things.)

[Drascin]

Originally Posted by Xefas

Alucard's being the correct way.

Also, how many of you know the correct way to pronounce Autochthon?

Me for example.

It helps that it comes from a real actual word that is still used in Spanish, and that Spanish is a phonetic language where "how is this pronounced" is a silly question .

[Weimann]

Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard

How do you pronounce Sidereal?

Si-de-re-al. Four syllables.

[Lochar]

Originally Posted by aetherialDawn

I'd say this seems okay, except for three problems:
One, the Exaltation-transferred wyld dice don't make sense when applied. They either get hit with thousands of years worth of "Shapeshifting will screw you over" rendering each starting Lunar a chimaera far too quickly... Or something needs to change.

Yeah, the thought had occurred to me as well. I may just drop the transferred dice, as 90% of Lunar background storys I've see are "I survived where the rest of my life didn't" which is good enough to start out a lunar with a few dice of their own.

Two, it's too extensive in description. You're implying setting changes when this is really only mechanical; this will put off people who could have otherwise used it as a simple fix. As it's mostly a good fix, I'd rather see it used by those who like it. I especially like the dice cap changes.

Minus the Luna stuff that your'e talking about below, what's too extensive specifically?

Three, Luna isn't opposite to stability as the Wyld is. She is the envoy to the Wyld, she is the keeper of the border between stable and unstable, she decides where the chaos begins, she is not wholly native to Creation but also to the Other of Oramus - but she is not and never has been a creature of the Wyld. She oversees the borders between Creation and the Wyld; she commands the forces of the Wyld with ease as well. But she is not, herself, Wyld. She is free rather than disordered, and she is a mirror image of Creation rather than anathema to it. I simply must disagree with you on the idea of Luna being of the Wyld; she is indeed the envoy to the Wyld, and the Goddess of the Wyld insofar as Creation has one, but she is not of the Wyld itself, but of her own freedom.

You keep picking on one line in there. :P I can always say "Luna is the force of change in Creation" or just drop it entirely.

As for good points: Again, it's mechanically sound in most concerns - although the cross-Exaltation effects just plain aren't. I also, again, like the dice cap modifications. It makes Solar Bond more worthwhile too.
The attribute modifications for how forms work are also quite good. I like that a Casteless/unfixed Lunar doesn't have a 'spirit shape' - especially since nothing says I can't have a signature shape. If I choose to appear as a red-and-gold wolf, well, that's what I choose to appear as.

Yeah, dropping the cross-Exaltation dice. No need to screw them that hard.

It might be a little too open on what forms you can take; perhaps just require the animal to have actually been seen as a natural creature. That way my personal spirit shape is also still mine; anyone can see "A Wolf" but I'm the one who went out and found the red-and-gold one to copy - or perhaps made it myself with a knack as a 'signature shape' (opening up the possibility of repurchases for more such things.)

It still has to be a form natural to Creation, I noted what Knacks they automatically had.

Thanks.

[Jade Dragon]

Originally Posted by Gensh

Woo! Part 2 of my documentary is finished. And I still can't maintain a single narrator voice.

I don't like your Mardukth voice.

I don't really like your voices for the Dragon's Shadow and SWLihN either, but they fit them.

But the important thing is, you forgot about Gaia. Of course, I'm not sure whether Gaia's the bare landscape covered by Creation, or just separate.

[aetherialDawn]

Originally Posted by Lochar

Yeah, the thought had occurred to me as well. I may just drop the transferred dice, as 90% of Lunar background storys I've see are "I survived where the rest of my life didn't" which is good enough to start out a lunar with a few dice of their own.

I think that dropping it probably is the best choice... It does sadden me that Lunar exaltation basically demands survival without others in most cases, as written...

Originally Posted by Lochar

Minus the Luna stuff that your'e talking about below, what's too extensive specifically?

I mean, rather, that you are implying that this changes the Silver Pact; with a more careful reading, that is not actually happening.
I suppose what I mean is, I would prefer that you present this in a much more "Just the facts" sort of fashion, so that it's just a rules fix. Fluff before and after is fine, of course.

Originally Posted by Lochar

You keep picking on one line in there. :P I can always say "Luna is the force of change in Creation" or just drop it entirely.

It's because that one line pains me so!

Originally Posted by Lochar

Yeah, dropping the cross-Exaltation dice. No need to screw them that hard.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Lochar

It still has to be a form natural to Creation, I noted what Knacks they automatically had.

Well, yes, but since they no longer need a specific form, Changing Peacock Plumage is fairly irrelevant, and if I choose to take a signature form... Every other casteless Lunar can take that EXACT same form without any problems.

Originally Posted by Lochar

Thanks.

[Gensh]

Originally Posted by Jade Dragon

I don't like your Mardukth voice.

I don't really like your voices for the Dragon's Shadow and SWLihN either, but they fit them.

But the important thing is, you forgot about Gaia. Of course, I'm not sure whether Gaia's the bare landscape covered by Creation, or just separate.

That's actually the Empyreal Chaos there. I actually tried to make the effects more impressive-sounding, but I kept spiking the audio whenever I tried anything. As for the voice itself, I wanted it to sound more like Gaston, but it would have taken a while to get anything even satisfactory, so I just went with what I had. And I actually agree with you that the SWLIHN voice is pretty awful. What didn't you like about the Dragon's voice, though?

While the sources don't agree on it, Word of God is that Gaia's essence pervades Creation, and much of the natural world is her handiwork, Creation is not tied to her specifically. It would be possible, to use Xefas' example, for Cecelyne to have been the one to join the rebellion, in which case the current form of Creation would be full of harsh landscapes (though not Desolation). I left Gaia out because it would interrupt the direct narrative, which at this point is mostly about the EC and the Dragon. Gaia will be introduced in the third part, which is about the War.

[Jade Dragon]

Originally Posted by Gensh

That's actually the Empyreal Chaos there. I actually tried to make the effects more impressive-sounding, but I kept spiking the audio whenever I tried anything. As for the voice itself, I wanted it to sound more like Gaston, but it would have taken a while to get anything even satisfactory, so I just went with what I had. And I actually agree with you that the SWLIHN voice is pretty awful. What didn't you like about the Dragon's voice, though?

I think it's because it has an echo on a slithering voice.

And SWLihN's voice could probably be improved by not making the pitch sound like an alien's, but still keeping the techno sound.

Also, in part 1, you called Adrian Adorjan. You got it right in part 2, though.

And I was talking about part 1 for Mardukth.

[Lochar]

Originally Posted by aetherialDawn

Well, yes, but since they no longer need a specific form, Changing Peacock Plumage is fairly irrelevant, and if I choose to take a signature form... Every other casteless Lunar can take that EXACT same form without any problems.

The original use for the ritual of the hunt

Spoiler

Though the Lunar Exalted without tattoos may take on any form without needing it's blood, to take a specific form requires hunting the Heart's Blood of that creature.

To take the form of any wolf is to take the form of no specific one. Should the Lunar want to take the form of a wolf of red and gold, he must hunt down such an animal.

In the First Age, this was more done through extensive breeding than a true hunt, but such was the excess of that time.

[Gensh]

Originally Posted by Jade Dragon

I think it's because it has an echo on a slithering voice.

I see. I tried to incorporate its of each Primordial's themes into the voices, and since the Dragon is hollow, I thought an echo was appropriate, aside from sounding more insidious.

Originally Posted by Jade Dragon

Well, I suppose I at least remember which one of the names goes with And SWLihN's voice could probably be improved by not making the pitch sound like an alien's, but still keeping the techno sound.

Unfortunately, there are only so many things I can do to make my voice more androgynous, and they all sound pretty awful.

Originally Posted by Jade Dragon

Also, in part 1, you called Adrian Adorjan. You got it right in part 2, though.

Whoops.

Originally Posted by Jade Dragon

And I was talking about part 1 for Mardukth.

You know, I completely forgot I did that line. As for his voice, I went with deep and rumbling so as to represent the Mountain. The echo effect is less effective here but still more or less required to sound sufficiently impressive , not to mention that it was the echoing of Mardukth's voice that expanded Zen Mu.

[aetherialDawn]

Originally Posted by Lochar

The original use for the ritual of the hunt

Spoiler

Though the Lunar Exalted without tattoos may take on any form without needing it's blood, to take a specific form requires hunting the Heart's Blood of that creature.

To take the form of any wolf is to take the form of no specific one. Should the Lunar want to take the form of a wolf of red and gold, he must hunt down such an animal.

In the First Age, this was more done through extensive breeding than a true hunt, but such was the excess of that time.

I like this idea, thank you. I think, if you could explain the current status of the Wyld Infliction dice, that will all resolve the mechanical issues I had; my only remaining concern then would be to make it clearer where fluff ends and crunch begins so that the crunch can be more easily used.

[Lochar]

Originally Posted by aetherialDawn

I like this idea, thank you. I think, if you could explain the current status of the Wyld Infliction dice, that will all resolve the mechanical issues I had; my only remaining concern then would be to make it clearer where fluff ends and crunch begins so that the crunch can be more easily used.

Wyld Infliction, Wyld taint, same difference. I just didn't look in the book for the exact name.

[aetherialDawn]

Originally Posted by Lochar

Wyld Infliction, Wyld taint, same difference. I just didn't look in the book for the exact name.

I didn't either. I mean, how are they gained and lost, and in what way do they transfer across incarnations, if at all?

I'm pretty sure I have all the parts of that answer down piecemeal. But I'd like confirmation of the whole all at once.

[Lochar]

Originally Posted by aetherialDawn

I didn't either. I mean, how are they gained and lost, and in what way do they transfer across incarnations, if at all?

I'm pretty sure I have all the parts of that answer down piecemeal. But I'd like confirmation of the whole all at once.

Dice of Wyld Taint is gained during the following:

1. The loss of a Lunar's positive Intimacy, when they could have conceivably prevented it. An Abyssal killing a loved one counts, that loved one dying to old age does not. This gains them a number of dice equal to the Virtue that it most closely resonates with, or their Limit Break condition virtue, whichever is higher.

2. The breaking of a Lunar's Motivation by outside forces. A motivation to protect Gem is shattered when any of a thousand forces arrayed against the city finally win, and the city breaks. This gains Essence+resonating virtue or limit break virtue, whichever is higher.

3. The loss of a Solar Mate when they should have been protected. This is the same number of dice as a motivation, plus any dots in Solar Bond.


Dice of Wyld Taint are lost as follows.

1. Any new positive intimacy that is forged reduces the taint by a number of dice equal to the resonating Virtue. Finding a new brother in arms would reduce the dice pool by Valor, for example.

2(New). Completing a motivation will reduce the pool by (Essence+Resonating Virtue). If you take the opportunity to raise your Essence when completing a motivation, use the pre-raised number.

Addendum: Lunars easily form bonds. Their Conviction is considered one less when considering the number of scenes required to build a positive Intimacy.

The pool of dice can never go below one.


Transfer across Exaltations

Normally, wyld taint dice do not transfer across Exaltations. STs may choose to may an exception for this and transfer all, some, none, or specific amounts. For the truly ravaged Chimera, transferring one point of wyld taint per 10/25/50 points of taint through Exaltation may make sense. This is an optional rule, and can quickly lead to all new Casteless quickly hitting Chimera themselves.

[Tavar]

Fluff for the Style:

A Tale of Two Styles: Iron Grip Assassin and Anaconda

In the waning days of Solar Rule Iron Grip Assassin Style was developed a Sidereal for use in the Usurpation, allowing the Terrestrials to sneak up on some Solars, and to be able to hold them down. He was never able to finish it, though. The style was used to decent effect, but it's creator always new something was missing. But, with so much to do, he had to prioritize, leaving this work by the wayside. Eventually, he died, though not till long into the Empress's Reign. The style was largely forgotten by this time; Sidereals preferring styles that allowed them to maintain the mobility that was their greatest asset, and Terrestrials largely forgetting the Bulb of the Perfected Lotus outside of the Immaculate styles. Still, the occasional Vizier learned the style, as well as a few spirits. And though it is unfinished, it will remain in Heaven's records for all of time.

Anaconda Style is much more recent, developed by a rather young Lunar in the Far Eastern Jungles. Initially an outgrowth of Lunar hero style, over time he codified it, purifying the essence patterns. Not entirely successful, he knows the style is incomplete, but cannot quite grasp its lack.

Neither Style is complete, but in different ways. It is quite likely that a practitioner of both styles would be able merge the two, creating a third, finished style. Or perhaps it will be invented independently of either.

[aetherialDawn]

Originally Posted by Lochar

Spoiler

Dice of Wyld Taint is gained during the following:

1. The loss of a Lunar's positive Intimacy, when they could have conceivably prevented it. An Abyssal killing a loved one counts, that loved one dying to old age does not. This gains them a number of dice equal to the Virtue that it most closely resonates with, or their Limit Break condition virtue, whichever is higher.

2. The breaking of a Lunar's Motivation by outside forces. A motivation to protect Gem is shattered when any of a thousand forces arrayed against the city finally win, and the city breaks. This gains Essence+resonating virtue or limit break virtue, whichever is higher.

3. The loss of a Solar Mate when they should have been protected. This is the same number of dice as a motivation, plus any dots in Solar Bond.


Dice of Wyld Taint are lost as follows.

1. Any new positive intimacy that is forged reduces the taint by a number of dice equal to the resonating Virtue. Finding a new brother in arms would reduce the dice pool by Valor, for example.

2(New). Completing a motivation will reduce the pool by (Essence+Resonating Virtue). If you take the opportunity to raise your Essence when completing a motivation, use the pre-raised number.

Addendum: Lunars easily form bonds. Their Conviction is considered one less when considering the number of scenes required to build a positive Intimacy.

The pool of dice can never go below one.


Transfer across Exaltations

Normally, wyld taint dice do not transfer across Exaltations. STs may choose to may an exception for this and transfer all, some, none, or specific amounts. For the truly ravaged Chimera, transferring one point of wyld taint per 10/25/50 points of taint through Exaltation may make sense. This is an optional rule, and can quickly lead to all new Casteless quickly hitting Chimera themselves.

This all seems in order, yeah. And the tattoos fix dice rolled at one regardless of the actual dice pool, yes?

[Lochar]

Correct, though you still gain and lose dice behind the scenes.

[Jade Dragon]

Oh, and Gensh, in Part 2, you called the sun Sol Incarnate. Isn't it Sol Invictus?

[Arrghus]

Originally Posted by Jade Dragon

Oh, and Gensh, in Part 2, you called the sun Sol Incarnate. Isn't it Sol Invictus?

No. He's the Unconquered Sun, Sol Incarnate or Ignis Divine. Sol Invictus is a fan-name.

If you feel this is bad, you are not alone (If you feel this is good you are not alone either).

[Kobold-Bard]

The definition of the Native Charm keyword says:

Powers like the Eclipse, Moonshadow and Fiend anima do not allow acquisition of Native Charms. Only natural wielders can learn Native charms. Exalted Charms and hero-style expansions are natural to the appropriate type of Chosen. Spirit Charms are natural to gods, elementals, demons and akuma. Arcanoi are natural to ghosts. Raksha Charms are natural to Fair Folk. ...

Does this mean that Eclipse/Moonshadow/Fiend Caste Exalts can't in fact learn any foreign Charms, since they're all Native, and thus unlearnable?

[TheCountAlucard]

Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard

The definition of the Native Charm keyword says:

Does this mean that Eclipse/Moonshadow/Fiend Caste Exalts can't in fact learn any foreign Charms, since they're all Native, and thus unlearnable?

Umm, what?

No, only Charms that actually have the Native keyword have the Native keyword.

[Xefas]

Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard

Does this mean that Eclipse/Moonshadow/Fiend Caste Exalts can't in fact learn any foreign Charms, since they're all Native, and thus unlearnable?

I think you're confusing the lowercase word "natural" in the definition for the uppercase keyword "Native", which only specifically denoted charms qualify as.

[Kobold-Bard]

Originally Posted by TheCountAlucard

Umm, what?

No, only Charms that actually have the Native keyword have the Native keyword.

Oh. I thought that was just an overarching statement about all Charms, meaning all Charms were considered to have the Native keyword.

Of course in hindsight that is an immensely stupid thought, but such is the way of things.

In that case, another question: If an Eclipse Caste learned Investiture of Infernal Glory (assuming I haven't got it wrong again and that's actually possible), would they decide on their target's transformation/Urge, or would someone else (and if so, who)?

[Tavar]

I certainly wish that Eclipse/Moonshadow/Fiend Caste couldn't learn foreign charms. Would certainly make things easier.

[golentan]

Now that the Kilomote Fiend has been errata'd out of existence, I tend to agree.

[Lix Lorn]

Originally Posted by Kobold-Bard

In that case, another question: If an Eclipse Caste learned Investiture of Infernal Glory (assuming I haven't got it wrong again and that's actually possible), would they decide on their target's transformation/Urge, or would someone else (and if so, who)?

Hmm. I'd say it should probably be native, because it relies on using your yozi's power.