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I have no idea what I'm trying to make here. I just know that there needs to be a better way to play a spartan (NOT the Halo one) in D&D. Hope you like it!
The Spartan
THIS! IS! SPARTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A spartan is a warrior trained from birth to be the biggest, the baddest, the meanest, the toughest, the deadliest, the hardiest, the brutalist...you get the point. The first spartans hailed from - you guessed it - Sparta, where their fighting style originated.
Adventures: A spartan could adventure for any number of reasons. Many enjoy the thrill of combat, while others seek material wealth.
Characteristics: A spartan is, hands down, a front line combatant. They can take a big attack and send it back with interest. Their white raven maneuvers also give them something of a team player style aspect.
Alignment: Spartans can be of any alignment, although many tend towards lawful due to the discipline they grow up with.
Religion: Spartans worship gods of strength and gods of battle. Heironeous and Hextor are favorites among them.
Background: Spartans are sent to military academies at an incredibly young age where they're taught their combat techniques. A rare few spartans learn from individual mentors.
Races: The original spartans - from Sparta, of course - were human, but dwarves and orcs have found the tradition quite endearing.
Role: A spartan makes sure the monster is dead with his spear, and he does it with style.
The Spartan
Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Maneuvers Known
Maneuvers Readied
Stances Known
1st
+1
+2
+2
+2
Damage Reduction, Spear and Shield
3
3
1
2nd
+2
+3
+3
+3
Bonus Feat
4
3
1
3rd
+3
+3
+3
+3
5
3
1
4th
+4
+4
+4
+4
Will of a Spartan
5
4
1
5th
+5
+4
+4
+4
On My Shield, or Not at All, Spear and Shield +1
6
4
2
6th
+6/+1
+5
+5
+5
Bonus Feat
6
4
2
7th
+7/+2
+5
+5
+5
7
4
2
8th
+8/+3
+6
+6
+6
Pounce
7
4
2
9th
+9/+4
+6
+6
+6
8
4
2
10th
+10/+5
+7
+7
+7
Bonus Feat, Spear and Shield +1
8
5
3
11th
+11/+6/+1
+7
+7
+7
9
5
3
12th
+12/+7/+2
+8
+8
+8
9
5
3
13th
+13/+8/+3
+8
+8
+8
10
5
3
14th
+14/+9/+4
+9
+9
+9
Bonus Feat
10
5
3
15th
+15/+10/+5
+9
+9
+9
Spear and Shield +1
11
6
3
16th
+16/+11/+6/+1
+10
+10
+10
Then We Shall Fight in the Shade
11
6
4
17th
+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+10
+10
12
6
4
18th
+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+11
+11
12
6
4
19th
+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+11
+11
Bonus Feat
13
6
4
20th
+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+12
+12
This is Sparta!, Spear and Shield +1
13
7
4
Alignment: Any Hit Die: d12
Class Skills:
Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope. Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4 Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A spartan is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, and with shields (but not tower shields).
Maneuvers: A spartan can use maneuvers as a warblade, but with access to the following disciplines: Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven. The spartan's recovery mechanic is extremely limited. He recovers all of his expended maneuvers when he reduces an enemy with a CR equal to the spartan's HD or more below 0, or by resting for 8 or more hours.
AC Bonus: A spartan gains a dodge bonus to AC as shown on the table above. He looses this bonus if he uses heavy armor.
Damage Reduction: A spartan gains damage reduction equal to half his class levels (minimum 1). It cannot be overcome.
Spear and Shield: All spartans are trained to use a combination of a short spear or longspear and a shield. If a spartan is wielding a spear and a shield of any type except for a tower shield or buckler, he gains a +2 bonus to AC, a +2 bonus to attack rolls, and a +1 bonus to all damage rolls he makes with his spear or any maneuvers used while wielding the short spear and shield. These bonuses all increase by +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter.
Bonus Feat: At the specified levels a spartan can select one bonus feat from the fighter bonus feat list. For purposes of qualifying for feats a spartan is treated as having levels in fighter equal to his class levels. This stacks with any real fighter levels he possesses.
Will of Sparta: At 4th level a spartan becomes immune to all fear effects.
On my Shield, or Not at All: At 5th level a spartan gains the diehard feat regardless of wether or not he meets the prerequisite. In addition, if a spartan is reduced to half HP or below he gains temporary HP equal to twice his constitution modifier for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 his HD.
Pounce: Starting at 8th level when a spartan makes a charge, he can follow with a full attack.
Then We Shall Fight in the Shade: Starting at 16th level, if a spartan is wielding any shield except for a buckler, while assuming the total defense action he is treated as having soft cover.
This is Sparta! Starting at 20th level, three times per day the spartan can take an additional standard action.
the problem I think you have is you are forgetting that the Greek phalanx and roman legionairs were specifically trained to fight together as brothers at arms. This class should grant a "pet" shield-mate who levels as one of these, as well as a number of team combat tricks, such as team bullrushing.
the other thing is, the class should be proficient with both light and heavy armor and tower shields to be able to be played as both a phalanx and legionair
the problem I think you have is you are forgetting that the Greek phalanx and roman legionairs were specifically trained to fight together as brothers at arms. This class should grant a "pet" shield-mate who levels as one of these, as well as a number of team combat tricks, such as team bullrushing.
the other thing is, the class should be proficient with both light and heavy armor and tower shields to be able to be played as both a phalanx and legionair
I'm a history buff, and completely aware of the phalanxes, Roman legionnaire battle formations, and the oblique phalanx. But that's absolutely no fun to play!
Basically, don't think this when you have this class. Think this...
Spoiler
Really, I was thinking of 300 when I made this. I actually have a plan for a legionnaire class that gets a warrior companion and they fight in tandem.
Here's an idea: Let them wield regular spears 1-handed. 1d8 damage, range increments, and it's not little. More historically accurate, too.
All good saves is bueno, thematically appropriate, and reasonable. You could do something that lets them add their shield bonus to reflex saves, with some limitations. I could see one of these dudes getting hit with a fireball and just ducking under a shield.
Oh, and you say they have 3 stances known at first level.
Speaking of ToB, why Tiger Claw? For dual-wielding spear and shield? There's a homebrew discipline, Iron Tortoise, floating around here somewhere that's worth checking out. It focuses on shield use, maybe a little bit better of a feat than dual-kukri barbarian blood frenzying.
Why can't they get an AC bonus while wearing their breastplates? After a while you're pretty much encouraging them to just wear a chain shirt, so they get the dodge bonus, and make any AC difference through the AC bonus and enchantments. I'm not sure you want to do that. When it comes to Leonidas and Achilles (Not technically a Spartan (I think), but close enough) badass breastplates>>wimpy chainmail wifebeaters. These guys are frontliners, I don't think you need to worry about their AC being too high.
Please.... please give them pounce. 7th looks like a good place for it. Full attacking as a standard is something all melee classes need.
Overall, a good solid start. I think it can improve a bit, but still decent.
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the problem I think you have is you are forgetting that the Greek phalanx and roman legionairs were specifically trained to fight together as brothers at arms.
All people around the world ever were more or less trained to fight together, because other options are rather pointless at the battlefield. Romans and some of more serious Greek armies were just proffesional about it, but by no means only them.
Anyway, class looks very fun, though light armor resctriction looks pretty out of place for class like that... I mean, I guess showing off bare chest must be mandatory while shouting "Spaaartaaa", but still....
Spear and Shield could probably scale somehow, it's pretty damn strong on first level, while obviously becomes negligible at higher levels, compared to benefits of good ole THF, for example...
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So, umm... this is better than the Warblade in almost every way, save the lack of access to Diamond Mind. Just as many maneuvers, plenty of bonus feats, better saves, a dodge bonus to AC, and a bunch of fairly solid class features. And the Warblade is already probably the best pure-melee class in the game.
Just saying. It's cool and flavorful, but somewhat on the strong side.
__________________ STaRS-- The Simple Tabletop Roleplaying System; my attempt at a generic rules-light system.
I agree with the sentiment of giving them pounce sometime, probably around where Wyntonian suggested.
Also, I feel you should make Spear and Shield scaling, to represent them getting better with that style and to make it less meaningless at high levels.
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So, umm... this is better than the Warblade in almost every way, save the lack of access to Diamond Mind. Just as many maneuvers, plenty of bonus feats, better saves, a dodge bonus to AC, and a bunch of fairly solid class features. And the Warblade is already probably the best pure-melee class in the game.
Just saying. It's cool and flavorful, but somewhat on the strong side.
Good point, actually useful DR, Bonus AC, all good saves.... Really make the difference.
Spear and shield style limits it's damage output a bit, but still it's probably a bit too strong. Trampling poor fighter is one thing, as it's unavoidably badly designed class, but Warblade is another.
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The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs—I was a man before I was a king.
Whoever makes shoddy beer, shall be thrown into manure - town law from Gdańsk, XIth century.
Good point, actually useful DR, Bonus AC, all good saves.... Really make the difference.
Spear and shield style limits it's damage output a bit, but still it's probably a bit too strong. Trampling poor fighter is one thing, as it's unavoidably badly designed class, but Warblade is another.
I thought the forced used of shield would be a huge damage loss, until I realized there is absolutely nothing stopping this guy from using the shield while Spear and Shield give too good a bonus then dropping it for a two-hander. Hell there aren't even any restrictions on their bonus feats allowing the Spartan to grab generally good things like Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper.
I would drop their stances and maneuvers to less then the warblade and give them a shield brother. Spartans never went anywhere without at least one shield brother
Oh, yeah, I just compared the stances/maneuvers to a warblade. Shoot, dawg, tone that down.
I would advocate against building a shield-brother into the class, though. I feel like with the exception of animals, roles that can be played by other people should be played by other people. I mean, what if you had the "dashing handsome swordsman poet" class that automatically came with female followers? No, he should be off earning them, by being a classy dashing romantic.
To continue the metaphor, I'd say that if you want a shield-brother (and really, why not?) get a cohort/follower type, or have another character play one, from any melee-type class. Don't just slap one on blindly. Plus, there's the difficult-to-manage thing about playing two characters. (Actions? WBL? Communication between the two characters? Taking up twice as much time to resolve a round, and the list goes on and on....)
If you want to make this guy more of a team player, well, he has White Raven, try stealing some shield-block type things from the knight and flanking bonuses from wherever.
Consider changing his maneuver renewal mechanic, too. Maybe every time he drops an opponent, they all get recharged. Warblades have the best mechanic, and you're giving this guy so many other toys that he really, really doesn't need it.
Also, note that with the Physical Attribute Bonus, you're effectively giving them +32,000 over WBL by 20th (2*16000 (+4 item)). Not sure if you intended to do that, but you could swap that out for some of the above and call it a neutral power-level change. More fun, too, because having more and cooler options is way better that having higher numbers.
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I see your point about the shield brother but them your relying on other people for your class concept. Actually giving a shield brother would fix the wbl issues cause they would be outfitting two party members. I mean if you tone it down it could be akin to the rangers animal companion. Notice I didn't say the druid because as much as I love the druid it is far too powerful. At the end of the day though the shield brother thing is a thematic idea and it does present the problem of balancing so I see why it wasn't included. I guess when I think of a Spartan I always see them side by side facing anything the world can throw at them.
the problem is, he gave martial arts to what should be a team build. Sure, in 300 Leonidas would be a bit ahead of the pack, but they never were truely alone. they were always a spearhead. Sure, there were exceptional Spartans, but nothing really outdoes the thought of an army bred, raised, and taught only how to beat the everliving **** out of anything not wearing a harness and that badass helmet.
basically, pull the maneuvers, give a shield-mate, and rebuild them.
Not necessarily other people, other characters. If it's the party warblade, played by your college bud? Great. If it's an NPC fighter you rescued from the prison of the BBEG, who pledged his life to yours? Dandy.
Or, y'know, fudge your individual interpretation of that kinda minor facet of the character, just for the purpose of the given mechanics.
Whatever works for you.
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A Campaign Setting more than a year in the making, Patria!
WOW I'm really sorry it too me so long to reply. Internet access is very limited right now
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyntonian
Couple little things.
"Baddest, Meanest... brutalEst."
Here's an idea: Let them wield regular spears 1-handed. 1d8 damage, range increments, and it's not little. More historically accurate, too.
All good saves is bueno, thematically appropriate, and reasonable. You could do something that lets them add their shield bonus to reflex saves, with some limitations. I could see one of these dudes getting hit with a fireball and just ducking under a shield.
Oh, and you say they have 3 stances known at first level.
Speaking of ToB, why Tiger Claw? For dual-wielding spear and shield? There's a homebrew discipline, Iron Tortoise, floating around here somewhere that's worth checking out. It focuses on shield use, maybe a little bit better of a feat than dual-kukri barbarian blood frenzying.
Why can't they get an AC bonus while wearing their breastplates? After a while you're pretty much encouraging them to just wear a chain shirt, so they get the dodge bonus, and make any AC difference through the AC bonus and enchantments. I'm not sure you want to do that. When it comes to Leonidas and Achilles (Not technically a Spartan (I think), but close enough) badass breastplates>>wimpy chainmail wifebeaters. These guys are frontliners, I don't think you need to worry about their AC being too high.
Please.... please give them pounce. 7th looks like a good place for it. Full attacking as a standard is something all melee classes need.
Overall, a good solid start. I think it can improve a bit, but still decent.
Pounce is a good idea. I'll definitely put it in. As to having light armor, these guys are pretty mobile combatants and the breastplates of their era were of an inferior quality anyways. They were bronze, not steel, which is lighter. I know that doesn't fit with the bronze rules in the DMG, but it feels right to me. Tiger claw is included because these guys are ferocious fighters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant
So, umm... this is better than the Warblade in almost every way, save the lack of access to Diamond Mind. Just as many maneuvers, plenty of bonus feats, better saves, a dodge bonus to AC, and a bunch of fairly solid class features. And the Warblade is already probably the best pure-melee class in the game.
Just saying. It's cool and flavorful, but somewhat on the strong side.
Yeah...good point I think the first thing I'm going to do is take out the ability bonuses. However, I am going to add pounce, so it won't balance them out that much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SheepInDisguise
I agree with the sentiment of giving them pounce sometime, probably around where Wyntonian suggested.
Also, I feel you should make Spear and Shield scaling, to represent them getting better with that style and to make it less meaningless at high levels.
Scaling for spear and shield is a good idea
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virdish
I would drop their stances and maneuvers to less then the warblade and give them a shield brother. Spartans never went anywhere without at least one shield brother
Quote:
Originally Posted by toapat
the problem is, he gave martial arts to what should be a team build. Sure, in 300 Leonidas would be a bit ahead of the pack, but they never were truely alone. they were always a spearhead. Sure, there were exceptional Spartans, but nothing really outdoes the thought of an army bred, raised, and taught only how to beat the everliving **** out of anything not wearing a harness and that badass helmet.
basically, pull the maneuvers, give a shield-mate, and rebuild them.
...No.
Sorry, but that's a completely different class I'm going to make (the legionnaire). If you don't like the idea of this being a spartan, reflavour it or don't use it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyntonian
Not necessarily other people, other characters. If it's the party warblade, played by your college bud? Great. If it's an NPC fighter you rescued from the prison of the BBEG, who pledged his life to yours? Dandy.
Or, y'know, fudge your individual interpretation of that kinda minor facet of the character, just for the purpose of the given mechanics.
Yeah...good point I think the first thing I'm going to do is take out the ability bonuses. However, I am going to add pounce, so it won't balance them out that much.
I don't know if I'd worry too much about that. I mean, yeah, pounce is critically important for most melee builds, but in my experience, Tome of Battle works fine without it-- most of the time, you'll be using maneuvers, anyway. Looks better now, although I might go ahead and take out the bonus feats-- either that, or limit them to a list that's more thematic than useful.
On other notes, I would rename Steely Resolve-- the Crusader has a very different ability of the same name-- and maybe try to shuffle some of the abilities around so that they fall on levels where you don't get new maneuvers or stances?
__________________ STaRS-- The Simple Tabletop Roleplaying System; my attempt at a generic rules-light system.
the problem I think you have is you are forgetting that the Greek phalanx and roman legionairs were specifically trained to fight together as brothers at arms. This class should grant a "pet" shield-mate who levels as one of these, as well as a number of team combat tricks, such as team bullrushing.
the other thing is, the class should be proficient with both light and heavy armor and tower shields to be able to be played as both a phalanx and legionair
Actually they would wear a version of chain mail/breastplate.
Also the Spartans train all their life in running with heavy armor on so they should be like dwarves when it comes to speed reductions.
I am a total Nerd.
Agreed. Also, the base chassis is ridiculously strong (d12 HD, all good saves, full BAB, 4 skill points). Either lower the HD (at d8 they'd have nearly the same chassis as a Monk, which is already really good, but they have thankfully better class features than the Monk) or give them only two good saves (Fort, most likely) with perhaps a class feature that grants a Reflex bonus, like one based on the amount of allies there are within 30 ft or something (at level 7 sounds good).
He also still has 3 stances known at level 1. I'd also number Spear and Shield at level 10 as +2 on the class table, and at level 15 as +3 and at level 20 as +4, just like with the Bard's Inspire Courage or the Rogue's Sneak Attack. (Or as a bonus of whatever you might change it to.)
Damage Reduction that cannot be overcome, even with Mountain Hammer, starting as low as level 2 is really strong, I hope you are aware of that.
Pounce also does not work like that. In fact, the way you made it made it even more powerful, allowing a Spartan to make a full attack, move and make another full attack (using a Belt of Battle or another way to get a standard action). Heck, at level 20, he could make four full attacks and then move away, or make one/two/three full attacks, move and then make three/two/one more full attacks. It's like a free 9th-level maneuver for half the action costs.
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Pounce also does not work like that. In fact, the way you made it made it even more powerful, allowing a Spartan to make a full attack, move and make another full attack (using a Belt of Battle or another way to get a standard action). Heck, at level 20, he could make four full attacks and then move away, or make one/two/three full attacks, move and then make three/two/one more full attacks. It's like a free 9th-level maneuver for half the action costs.
Oh god, yes. The ability to make a full attack as a standard action is not outrageously strong, though it probably is at level 8. But a full initiator class has NO reason to need it. I still question the necessity of Pounce at all, but at least make it the right one.
__________________ STaRS-- The Simple Tabletop Roleplaying System; my attempt at a generic rules-light system.
How is it explained(this DR is better than being made out adamantine!)? What is its type - does it stack with other sources of DR?
Generally, one source of DR does not stack with others but rather the higher one takes precedence unless it can be overcome. This "DR" is largely mental rather then physical, showing the spartan's resistance to pain and toughness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grod_The_Giant
Oh god, yes. The ability to make a full attack as a standard action is not outrageously strong, though it probably is at level 8. But a full initiator class has NO reason to need it. I still question the necessity of Pounce at all, but at least make it the right one.
What do you mean make it the right one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morph Bark
Agreed. Also, the base chassis is ridiculously strong (d12 HD, all good saves, full BAB, 4 skill points). Either lower the HD (at d8 they'd have nearly the same chassis as a Monk, which is already really good, but they have thankfully better class features than the Monk) or give them only two good saves (Fort, most likely) with perhaps a class feature that grants a Reflex bonus, like one based on the amount of allies there are within 30 ft or something (at level 7 sounds good).
Yeah. The chassis is really good, but I can't justify bringing it down.
He also still has 3 stances known at level 1. I'd also number Spear and Shield at level 10 as +2 on the class table, and at level 15 as +3 and at level 20 as +4, just like with the Bard's Inspire Courage or the Rogue's Sneak Attack. (Or as a bonus of whatever you might change it to.)
Damage Reduction that cannot be overcome, even with Mountain Hammer, starting as low as level 2 is really strong, I hope you are aware of that.
DR 1...?
Pounce also does not work like that. In fact, the way you made it made it even more powerful, allowing a Spartan to make a full attack, move and make another full attack (using a Belt of Battle or another way to get a standard action). Heck, at level 20, he could make four full attacks and then move away, or make one/two/three full attacks, move and then make three/two/one more full attacks. It's like a free 9th-level maneuver for half the action costs.
How does it work then? I've never understood it that well
What does that mean for a player? Normally, when a character uses the full-round Charge action, they move up to twice their speed in a straight line and make a single melee attack at a +2 bonus, accepting in turn a -2 penalty to AC. With the charge ability, they can make a full attack instead of the single attack, gaining the +2 attack bonus on each attack.
The DR is, like a lot of other things about this class, not bad, as such, or all that overpowered (although I might go ahead and push it back a few levels), except that he also gets lots of maneuvers. Remember the Warblade? Gets just as many maneuvers, but no other really good class abilities except a few bonus feats? Probably the single strongest melee class in the game, with the possible exception of the Crusader, and it dominates the early levels. This gets everything the Warblade does, but better. Same maneuvers. Same armor. Same hit die. Better chassis. AC bonus. DR. Pounce.
A full initiator has plenty of raw combat ability. What they can use from class abilities is flavor (Spear and Shield, On my Shield or Not at All, etc) and out of combat stuff, for the most part.
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Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.
The new recovery mechanism is horrible. Like, painfully so. I'd change it to whenever he drops an enemy with a challenge rating of at least one-half his class levels, or the usual rest. To compensate, and I know I'm saying this a lot, take out the AC bonus. He really doesn't need it. And as for the DR, I'd say maybe leave it, and maybe cut it down to 2/3 class levels.
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