Skyrim IV: Oblivion

[Opperhapsen]

Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey

So instead you want him to be a traitor to everything he believes by supporting a murderer and a terrorist? And become a traitor to the empire as well as the emperor in the process?

As for your last point... it might not be defensible, but it is necessary a lot of times. Now let's leave this since we are sliding into IRL politics?

Who's a terrorist?
The Stormcloaks have killed less civilians than the Imperial regime in this war, they don't target non-imperials, and Ulfric was declared a murderer for something that was quite simply not murder.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Have to agree here. The Stormcloaks aren't terrorists, because they're not killing civilian populations for the purpose of instilling fear in their enemies. They're using traditional military tactics mixed with guerilla warfare in the hinterlands. The Stormcloaks don't exactly take pains to hide their camps in their territory, and they don't sneak into Whiterun and burn down Dragonsreach or something. They besiege it in the middle of broad daylight.

I may not like the ideology of the Stormcloaks or Ulfric personally, but you're definitely mislabeling them here.

[Triaxx]

Not to mention you never see groups of Stormcloak Soldiers leading prisoners around. Unlike the Thalmor and Imperials. Might happen further down the Imperial storyline, but I never got that far.

[Opperhapsen]

They don't, ever.
They never touch a hair on a bystanders head.

The only really bad thing they do is relegate the non humans to their own quarters in a single city. Something I cannot get worked up over since said races are infinitely worse within their own borders, have pretty much universally proven to be criminals, and in the case of the Khajit are nationals of a country that helped the very people they're fighting.

Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey

Skyrim isn't rebelling. Skyrim is having a civil war between a large minority that wants to leave the empire because of the empire outlawing Talos worship, and those who either support the empire outright or are pragmatic enough to know they could never survive against the elves alone.

With Hammerfell out of the empire, Skyrim is supplying a sizeable majority of Imperial troops.
If they leave imperal rule they'd have a much, much, much larger force guarding their borders (Easily rivalling the Imperial legion), their borders are ludicrously defensible, they're largely self-sufficient, and holding Skyrim is going to be next to impossible.

Skyrim stands better alone, it's the rest of the empire that needs Skyrim.

[Avilan the Grey]

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

Stuff

Well let's agree to disagree. I would never play a pro-stormcloak character.

[Opperhapsen]

Nah, because you're just going to pick it up on a later date and continue your anti-stormcloak ways.
You cannot fool me good sir!
This is a matter that must be settled by pistols at dawn if necessary!


The Stormcloaks have a strategic, cultural, and moral justification for their rebellion; they possess the moral high ground so very firmly it's a wonder the empire isn't just presented as antagonists; and literally every argument against the Stormcloak's position the Imperials can muster is a lie, or some kind of call for civility while people are being taken from their homes by a foreign government.

AND LEST WE FORGET Ulfric is the rightful ruler of Skyrim.

[Triaxx]

Interesting thought: Riften, and Windhelm are the only two cities where Argonians are common. Solitude has three.

Amongst them, only the three in Solitude are Criminals. All living in Imperial Cities.

Within the entire bounds of Skyrim, there is one Khajiit who isn't a caravan member. That's J'zargo of the College of Winterhold.

Definitely an interesting comparison to the cosmopolitan center of Cyrodiil.

Also interesting, Windhelm is the only city that the Dark Elves seem to have had trouble fitting into. Riften has a couple, who are perfectly fine, and one who's... a spoiler.

Irileth is Balgruuf's housecarl. The one from the College is perfectly well adjusted. Aside from having a name I can't spell.

It seems only those in the Gray Quarter who don't want to be normal.

[pffh]

Can we not do this again the empire vs stormcloak argument has been argued to death and if you want it then go read one of the other two threads that are filled with it.

Speaking of other threads we are on page 49 and need a name for the next one.

[t209]

Let's move on the Dawnguard speculation...
1. Spear
2. Crossbow
3. Vampire or some monster things.

[Kinslayer]

Originally Posted by pffh

Can we not do this again the empire vs stormcloak argument has been argued to death and if you want it then go read one of the other two threads that are filled with it.

Speaking of other threads we are on page 49 and need a name for the next one.

Skyrim V : Skyrim

Too obvious?

Skyrim 5 : Dragonrangers, go!
Skyrim V : Tullius, give me back my legions! (Ha.)
Skyrim Vee : Base jumping, whee!
Skyrim V : Beware the jabberwocky

[Lord_Gareth]

Skyrim V: It's Taking Forever to Grind These Threads

[Gaelbert]

Originally Posted by pffh

Can we not do this again the empire vs stormcloak argument has been argued to death and if you want it then go read one of the other two threads that are filled with it.

Or, and I say this will all due respect, you could just ignore or not respond to the posts about the Civil War. People are going to want to post about it, it's a central aspect of the game, highly controversial, and done quite well. It's futile asking people to not bring it up and there's a lot of interesting perspectives to be presented, as long as they say within forum rules. As the discussions largely have.

[The Underlord]

Ooh, title suggestions? Here's mine
Skyrim 5: I said Lok Vah Koor damnit

Skyrim V : Beware the jabberwockywabbajack

FTFY

[Kinslayer]

Originally Posted by The Underlord

FTFY

Damn, acronyms...

...Ah, I see. Fixed, something something something. Yes, well. I've been reading too much (about) Alice in Wonderland, in my defence.

[Qwertystop]

Originally Posted by Kinslayer

Damn, acronyms...

...Ah, I see. Fixed, something something something. Yes, well. I've been reading too much (about) Alice in Wonderland, in my defence.

"Fixed That For You"

Generally used humorously, when the thing fixed is not an error per se as much as something that would be funnier or more appropriate in its corrected form.


...Wow, where did that come from?

[BobVosh]

Since I've only just started Skyrim I can't keep up with whatever ya'll are blathering about :P

However for TES: Online I'm very wary of it. It would be like any of the previous titles, if only because it isn't being done by Bethseda but instead by ZeniMax Media(they own Bethseda, and therefore the franchise). I have loved Morrowind so much, I know I racked up at least 1k hours in that game. Oblivion I hated, and Skyrim I like so far. Not too far in.

The big problem with the games have always been combat is fairly boring, and plot is just kinda there. Never great, never bad. The big thing is it is the Sahara desert of sandboxes. That is glorious, and enough for me. Now try to imagine "wow-like mechanics" with "sandbox." The two can't mix, one will be impossible with the other. So then we have no plot, WoW combat, and no exploration. That makes me think the game will be awful.

Also the game takes place 1,000 years prior to skyrim, with a whole bunch of demon gates opening up. We know this is all mopped up and taken care of since there are no demongates around to be bothered with in Skyrim. I'm not quite sure why this is prequel, if for only that.

[Dsurion]

Originally Posted by Hazzardevil

It isn't when you find out they have described at as "using WOW mechanics" and "will be familiar to WOW players" So if is just another WOW clone. Which made me wonder: HOW CAN YOU MESS UP MULTIPLAYER SKYRIM!

Honestly, when someone asked me, "Have you heard about Elder Scrolls Online?"I was REALLY hoping for something like Co-Op adventuring. Sadly, I will be passing on an MMO. Does not appeal to me one bit.

[factotum]

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

AND LEST WE FORGET Ulfric is the rightful ruler of Skyrim.

Because he killed the previous occupier of that post in a totally unfair fight, you mean? And even *after* having done that, his claim to the throne needs to be confirmed by the collected Jarls before he can be called the "rightful" ruler...

[Lord_Gareth]

Originally Posted by factotum

Because he killed the previous occupier of that post in a totally unfair fight, you mean? And even *after* having done that, his claim to the throne needs to be confirmed by the collected Jarls before he can be called the "rightful" ruler...

This. Very much this.

[Opperhapsen]

Originally Posted by factotum

Because he killed the previous occupier of that post in a totally unfair fight, you mean? And even *after* having done that, his claim to the throne needs to be confirmed by the collected Jarls before he can be called the "rightful" ruler...

... your point?

The match was a brilliant message, and the fact that it went over half of everyone's heads astounds me.
He challenged a man whom he believes is a puppet of the empire to a lawful duel by ancient Nord law, when it is accepted he wins handily by way of an ancient Nord technique.
If his claim was accepted (as it should be by Nord law) he could steer Skyrim in a new direction, and if they declared him a murderer he had tangible proof that they were openly disregarding the laws of Skyrim.
That the other man never stood a chance doesn't make it murder, it merely speaks to Ulfric's prowess.

[Cespenar]

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

The match was a brilliant message, and the fact that it went over half of everyone's heads astounds me.
He challenged a man whom he believes is a puppet of the empire to a lawful duel by ancient Nord law, when it is accepted he wins handily by way of an ancient Nord technique.
If his claim was accepted (as it should be by Nord law) he could steer Skyrim in a new direction, and if they declared him a murderer he had tangible proof that they were openly disregarding the laws of Skyrim.
That the other man never stood a chance doesn't make it murder, it merely speaks to Ulfric's prowess.

Even though I ended up disliking Ulfric after finishing the Stormcloaks' line, I have to second this.

[Avilan the Grey]

Originally Posted by Opperhapsen

... your point?

The match was a brilliant message, and the fact that it went over half of everyone's heads astounds me.
He challenged a man whom he believes is a puppet of the empire to a lawful duel by ancient Nord law, when it is accepted he wins handily by way of an ancient Nord technique.
If his claim was accepted (as it should be by Nord law) he could steer Skyrim in a new direction, and if they declared him a murderer he had tangible proof that they were openly disregarding the laws of Skyrim.
That the other man never stood a chance doesn't make it murder, it merely speaks to Ulfric's prowess.

The man is still a coward and a traitor. Using his shout only proves one thing: The man is a coward that didn't dare to fight honestly despite being older, stronger and more skilled. What he did was technically legal by Nord laws, but most people see it for what it is, a dirty trick.
Also, he is still a racist. If he really cared for "independence" and "freedom for the oppressed" he would support the forsworn against the Nords. Not to mention that the Nords have no right to the land of Skyrim at all, it all, rightfully, belong to the Mer.

Anyway, the fact that he used his Shout to fight the king, makes it oh so much better when you shout him to death before he has a chance to open his mouth or draw his weapon in the final fight...

[Triaxx]

I wonder at the level disparity if he 'shouted the poor man to pieces'.

On the other hand, since Ulfric is NOT dragonborn, his use of a shout was his skill and experience, because everyone else has to study to shout, as pointed out by the Greybeards, and thus his use was justified as using all the skills at his disposal to defeat an opponent, something any eminently practical soldier would do.

Dawnguard? I'm hoping we're heading to the Summerset Isle to start making some Elf-sausage.

And not that kind of elf-sausage.

[Avilan the Grey]

Originally Posted by Triaxx

and thus his use was justified as using all the skills at his disposal to defeat an opponent, something any eminently practical soldier would do.

In a war, yes. In a duel? As I said, technically not cheating, just very cowardly.

[Kinslayer]

Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey

Not to mention that the Nords have no right to the land of Skyrim at all, it all, rightfully, belong to the Mer.

I'd say 4500ish years of ownership are enough for transfer of right to the land.

(Though all of Skyrim would (beyond a doubt) belong to the Empire if Martin hadn't gone and ganked himself. )

[Cespenar]

Originally Posted by Avilan the Grey

In a war, yes. In a duel? As I said, technically not cheating, just very cowardly.

Accusing him of being a coward is the worst argument to be made against Ulfric. He can (arguably) be immoral, brash, a racist, etc. but he is most definitely not a coward. As it's mentioned above, the Voice thing was to prove a point.

If you follow the Stormcloak quests, the Solitude battle alone is proof that he is your tried-and-true war hero.

[Triaxx]

Was there a rule saying: No ancient arts easily learned by studying with some mountain guys?

[t209]

Originally Posted by Kinslayer

Skyrim V : Skyrim

Too obvious?

Skyrim 5 : Dragonrangers, go!
Skyrim V : Tullius, give me back my legions! (Ha.)
Skyrim Vee : Base jumping, whee!
Skyrim V : Beware the jabberwocky

How about Skyrim V: Skyrim!

[Brother Oni]

Originally Posted by Triaxx

Was there a rule saying: No ancient arts easily learned by studying for years with some mountain guys?

You're seeing Thu'um through the Dragonborn's eyes, who takes a couple minutes to learn what the Greycloaks take years to learn.

In any case, the rumours are that Ulfric shouted the king 'to pieces', while Ulfric claims he just knocked the man down then stabbed him with his sword.

I don't like the guy for the reasons that Cespenar pointed out, but I respect him for his courage and the beliefs that he thinks are right.

The fact that he doesn't kill you where you stand when you deliver Jarl Balgruuf's axe in the Imperial quest line shows he still honours Nord ways and has integrity at least.

Since he makes it to Sovegarde, it indicates that he has some heroic traits.

[Avilan the Grey]

Originally Posted by Brother Oni

You're seeing Thu'um through the Dragonborn's eyes, who takes a couple minutes to learn what the Greycloaks take years to learn.

In any case, the rumours are that Ulfric shouted the king 'to pieces', while Ulfric claims he just knocked the man down then stabbed him with his sword.

I don't like the guy for the reasons that Cespenar pointed out, but I respect him for his courage and the beliefs that he thinks are right.

The fact that he doesn't kill you where you stand when you deliver Jarl Balgruuf's axe in the Imperial quest line shows he still honours Nord ways and has integrity at least.

Since he makes it to Sovegarde, it indicates that he has some heroic traits.

All true.
But I still don't think he is doing the right thing, and I fail to see what "evil" the Empire has done.
Of course it all gets muddled by how you play your character anyway, I have found it funny (not talking about anyone on this forum!) when people argue for the virtue of Ulfric (and the oppressive evil of the Empire) while themselves playing a member of the dark brotherhood, for example.