Cannon contain does not work if you scout the forge first and put a drone on patrol at the ramp.
The fun bit is when you find where their overlord isn't sighting and drop a cannon so it finishes about the same time as their expo does. Or just wall it in with pylons behind their mineral line. So much fun to do that.
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Cannon contain does not work if you scout the forge first and put a drone on patrol at the ramp.
but now you've got one drone scouting, one drone morphing into your expo, and one drone patrolling the ramp, all while you're sitting at 12. The toss is going to pull ahead of you, see that you're fast expanding, and swap into proxy gate.
Also, yes, putting 3 or 4 pylons behind the mineral line into cannons is pretty ruthless, and requires some on-the-ball management to counter. That or you just swarm the toss base with your workers and a couple military units, because it's costing them 6-700 minerals to do.
If you can keep a couple workers out of range and stock up 400 minerals for when you're done, you can expand and mop up the cannons after. Makes for very short 1v1's, it's brutally effective in 2v2 tho. (Because your ally covers your butt from the counter)
Also: What's with people in 2v2 just giving up the second your opponents attack? Like "Oh, well. They got my expo. Guess I give up now."
If the enemy attacks your Expo, push into their main and kill workers/tech/pop. It's easy. I've had a number of allies ask me what I'm doing in the enemy base when the enemy is attacking me, the answer is "Winning". Maybe in high-level play you're screwed if the enemy pulls ahead, but in gold/silver/bronze? Come on.
The fun bit is when you find where their overlord isn't sighting and drop a cannon so it finishes about the same time as their expo does. Or just wall it in with pylons behind their mineral line. So much fun to do that.
Yes, which is why probes doing sneaky things inside my base make me paranoid. Those sorts aren't undefeatable, but they are royal pains in the rear. I usually shift my overlord around to make sure he's sighting on that probe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acanous
but now you've got one drone scouting, one drone morphing into your expo, and one drone patrolling the ramp, all while you're sitting at 12. The toss is going to pull ahead of you, see that you're fast expanding, and swap into proxy gate.
The forge isn't going to be done until my pool is starting, so I have 15 drones, of which 1 is scouting and 1 makes a brief trip to keep my ramp to keep from getting cannoned. I am also Zerg, so I can devote 100% of my larva to drones if I want and he can't put on any early pressure due to his FFE. I'll take a short dip in my econ since I'll catch right back up in a minute or less.
Once my hatch finishes, there is no way a cannon rush can actually kill anything critical unless I let it. Firstly, because of creep spread quickly making it impossible to place cannons in critical locations. Secondly, because my pool finishes shortly thereafter and I will have spines and a few lings.
That proxy gate nonsense? I only send the drone to patrol the ramp if I see a forge or wierd probe behavior, so to proxy gate me he's gonna be very late with his first zealots. My spines will be up, I will have a queen (now with 5 range!) and some lings, and he'll be stuck with 2 gateways out in the middle of nowhere. I'm fine with that situation.
Yes, which is why probes doing sneaky things inside my base make me paranoid. Those sorts aren't undefeatable, but they are royal pains in the rear. I usually shift my overlord around to make sure he's sighting on that probe.
The forge isn't going to be done until my pool is starting, so I have 15 drones, of which 1 is scouting and 1 makes a brief trip to keep my ramp to keep from getting cannoned. I am also Zerg, so I can devote 100% of my larva to drones if I want and he can't put on any early pressure due to his FFE. I'll take a short dip in my econ since I'll catch right back up in a minute or less.
Once my hatch finishes, there is no way a cannon rush can actually kill anything critical unless I let it. Firstly, because of creep spread quickly making it impossible to place cannons in critical locations. Secondly, because my pool finishes shortly thereafter and I will have spines and a few lings.
That proxy gate nonsense? I only send the drone to patrol the ramp if I see a forge or wierd probe behavior, so to proxy gate me he's gonna be very late with his first zealots. My spines will be up, I will have a queen (now with 5 range!) and some lings, and he'll be stuck with 2 gateways out in the middle of nowhere. I'm fine with that situation.
I was wanting to say something like this. But given that I'm:
1) Still gold
2) Haven't played in a while
and
3) Have not had any opponent do that strat to me
I felt like it would be unfair to try and defend that situation. But I thought that if they put down forge first, pool should be done before gate finishes.
Here is a warning to all Toss players on the internet: If you delay a Zerg's natural, take another base. Otherwise, he might do this to you. I came back from a 20 worker deficit. 20!
Here is a warning to all Toss players on the internet: If you delay a Zerg's natural, take another base. Otherwise, he might do this to you. I came back from a 20 worker deficit. 20!
I wish I could watch it. Just reading it caused me to laugh out loud.
The forge isn't going to be done until my pool is starting, so I have 15 drones, of which 1 is scouting and 1 makes a brief trip to keep my ramp to keep from getting cannoned. I am also Zerg, so I can devote 100% of my larva to drones if I want and he can't put on any early pressure due to his FFE. I'll take a short dip in my econ since I'll catch right back up in a minute or less.
Once my hatch finishes, there is no way a cannon rush can actually kill anything critical unless I let it. Firstly, because of creep spread quickly making it impossible to place cannons in critical locations. Secondly, because my pool finishes shortly thereafter and I will have spines and a few lings.
That proxy gate nonsense? I only send the drone to patrol the ramp if I see a forge or wierd probe behavior, so to proxy gate me he's gonna be very late with his first zealots. My spines will be up, I will have a queen (now with 5 range!) and some lings, and he'll be stuck with 2 gateways out in the middle of nowhere. I'm fine with that situation.
How do you not lose your natural if the toss goes forge first and puts 1-2 cannons and a wall in your naturals mineral line?
The new pro strat in ZvT is Queen-broodlord with infestor support. Gas goes into broodlords and infestors; minerals into queens. Queens tank ground fire, provide cover for infestors, heal fliers, and do tons of damage to any vikings that stray too close.
I saw leenock do this at MLG last year, and it was AWESOME and UNSTOPPABLE. Now, my question is, why has it taken so long for the meta game to change? Was ghost nerf necessary first? Does queen range 5 buff mean that reactor hellion and bunker rush can't pressure zerg early game, allowing them to drone up much faster?
Lastly, what does terran do in response? Drop more? Get hunter seeker missile tech path when spire is scouted (before hive tech, obviously, otherwise too late)?
Late game zergs seem really, really vulnerable to harass- why dont we see more spine crawler/spore crawler defenses at expos? Zerg tend to float a lot of minerals and often have a larvae deficiency when trying to remax. 4 marauders or 8 marines (3/3 with stim) dropping out of a medivac will burn a hatchery very quickly.
Late game zergs seem really, really vulnerable to harass- why dont we see more spine crawler/spore crawler defenses at expos? Zerg tend to float a lot of minerals and often have a larvae deficiency when trying to remax. 4 marauders or 8 marines (3/3 with stim) dropping out of a medivac will burn a hatchery very quickly.
I read a post similar to this (on these boards, maybe?) that was similar: encouraging building multiple of the same tech structures (as opposed to massing defenses) so that if the dread 8-rauder drop comes; one can still shrug it off.
Its hard dealing with drops with spines because terran drops have such a high mobility, ie he just drops somewhere else and attacks at a angle. And a couple of spines are nothing to 3/3 infantry with stim.
That said I usually put a spine or two and a spore to prevent drops behind the mineral line to discourage drops there. So if they come they won't get stuck behind minerals and the lings can get to them.
I also try and keep a pack of 8-10 mutas alive late game to intercept drops.
Late late game I can see mass crawlers in your base when you are getting broodlords as a means to free up supply.
How do you not lose your natural if the toss goes forge first and puts 1-2 cannons and a wall in your naturals mineral line?
Most important thing is to keep an overlord on your hatch. This lets you watch them dirty probes. Then pull off 8 drones, 4 per side. Take more if you feel you need it and they will be able to attack. You lose mining time, they lose minerals and the ability to put on any other kind of pressure. When you kill them off, put them to mining at the natural..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spuddles
I saw leenock do this at MLG last year, and it was AWESOME and UNSTOPPABLE. Now, my question is, why has it taken so long for the meta game to change? Was ghost nerf necessary first? Does queen range 5 buff mean that reactor hellion and bunker rush can't pressure zerg early game, allowing them to drone up much faster?
Ghost nerf was vital, brood lords go from 6 snipes to 10. That is huge difference in energy.
Queens starting energy buff is helpful to this as well. Hellions seem about as effective at containing, which is mostly what they were used for at the end before this patch.
Bunker pressure has pretty much been out of meta for a while, unless they do the fairly all in version on ... I can't remember, a purpleish map with 4 bases. You can wall off the ramp from the natural to the rest of the map with 3 bunkers. Killed a lot of zergs that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spuddles
Lastly, what does terran do in response? Drop more? Get hunter seeker missile tech path when spire is scouted (before hive tech, obviously, otherwise too late)?
Drops are great. Infestor, queen, Blords are all the slowest units for zerg. They can't scramble a defense that quickly. Hunter seeker is an odd choice, I never had anyone try it against me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spuddles
Late game zergs seem really, really vulnerable to harass- why dont we see more spine crawler/spore crawler defenses at expos? Zerg tend to float a lot of minerals and often have a larvae deficiency when trying to remax. 4 marauders or 8 marines (3/3 with stim) dropping out of a medivac will burn a hatchery very quickly.
Better players tend to get 3 spines and a spore per base. Then the huge wall of crawl in the middle.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabenson
Evil Intelligence is knowing the precise ritual that will allow you to destroy the peaceful kingdom that banished you.
Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.
How do you not lose your natural if the toss goes forge first and puts 1-2 cannons and a wall in your naturals mineral line?
From experience, he cannot kill your nat with one cannon fast enough. The hatch will take some hits, yes, but if you got your pool down on time (15), it will finish in time to build 2-3 spines out of cannon range. You then pick them up and burrow them in on the cannon.
The key is preventing that second cannon from getting finished.
The new pro strat in ZvT is Queen-broodlord with infestor support. Gas goes into broodlords and infestors; minerals into queens. Queens tank ground fire, provide cover for infestors, heal fliers, and do tons of damage to any vikings that stray too close.
I saw leenock do this at MLG last year, and it was AWESOME and UNSTOPPABLE. Now, my question is, why has it taken so long for the meta game to change? Was ghost nerf necessary first? Does queen range 5 buff mean that reactor hellion and bunker rush can't pressure zerg early game, allowing them to drone up much faster?
Lastly, what does terran do in response? Drop more? Get hunter seeker missile tech path when spire is scouted (before hive tech, obviously, otherwise too late)?
Late game zergs seem really, really vulnerable to harass- why dont we see more spine crawler/spore crawler defenses at expos? Zerg tend to float a lot of minerals and often have a larvae deficiency when trying to remax. 4 marauders or 8 marines (3/3 with stim) dropping out of a medivac will burn a hatchery very quickly.
There is a Day9 daily for this. Hunter seekers are definitely the answer.
I'm really excited to see this terran metal vs slowest zerg army every. I may have to play some more to actually test it out.
Also weekly session is TODAY!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabenson
Evil Intelligence is knowing the precise ritual that will allow you to destroy the peaceful kingdom that banished you.
Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.
Not sure I like the idea of moving slower than Terran Mech as Zerg. You take Terran apart by abusing their lack of flexibility, not by one hit KOing their base.
I'm actually really disliking the Infestor Broodlords strat that zergs are doing now. Sure it's really powerful, but it takes forever to use and you can only really engage the enemy 2 to 3 times before you've practically consummed all the gas available to you. Plus, you're highly immobile as well...
There is a Day9 daily for this. Hunter seekers are definitely the answer.
I know, I watched it. I also watched a lot of actual terran pros talk about it, and they were of the opinion that HS was an answer, but a very impractical one.
To me it just sounded like butthurt terrans upset that they couldn't just build only marines all game and still win, but what do I know.
I know, I watched it. I also watched a lot of actual terran pros talk about it, and they were of the opinion that HS was an answer, but a very impractical one.
To me it just sounded like butthurt terrans upset that they couldn't just build only marines all game and still win, but what do I know.
Actually, this is the only thing I like from the Broodlord+infestor strat. I wanted to use the ravens more for the longest time and now I have the chance to.
I know, I watched it. I also watched a lot of actual terran pros talk about it, and they were of the opinion that HS was an answer, but a very impractical one.
To me it just sounded like butthurt terrans upset that they couldn't just build only marines all game and still win, but what do I know.
The funny part is that ravens are also terrans' best hope for limiting the massive creep spread we're seeing from zerg going for mass queens (which is all of the smart ones).
Considering that science vessels were a TvZ staple back in Brood War, I think we shouldn't be surprised if Terrans start to use a lot of Ravens soon. The creep spread metagame is only going to force more detection out of Terrans, and one of these days they're going to realize that they already have a ton of air and a brief tech lab swap will pay off in a big way.
Actually, this is the only thing I like from the Broodlord+infestor strat. I wanted to use the ravens more for the longest time and now I have the chance to.
Raven play is always super exciting to watch, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by imperialspectre
The funny part is that ravens are also terrans' best hope for limiting the massive creep spread we're seeing from zerg going for mass queens (which is all of the smart ones).
Considering that science vessels were a TvZ staple back in Brood War, I think we shouldn't be surprised if Terrans start to use a lot of Ravens soon. The creep spread metagame is only going to force more detection out of Terrans, and one of these days they're going to realize that they already have a ton of air and a brief tech lab swap will pay off in a big way.
Watching the creep metagame evolve has been pretty cool. Queens are a great unit. Infuse micro is much easier than I anticipated. The only issue is keeping all your units grouped up.
The funny part is that ravens are also terrans' best hope for limiting the massive creep spread we're seeing from zerg going for mass queens (which is all of the smart ones).
Considering that science vessels were a TvZ staple back in Brood War, I think we shouldn't be surprised if Terrans start to use a lot of Ravens soon. The creep spread metagame is only going to force more detection out of Terrans, and one of these days they're going to realize that they already have a ton of air and a brief tech lab swap will pay off in a big way.
Terrans have scans. And with many bases, many scans available. If I'm diving into Zerg territory, I'm scanning if I don't have a Raven with me. Why? Because I remember back when Zerg players actually used to use Burrow. And now they have Banelings and Baneling mines.
Am I a bit paranoid? Maybe.
__________________
~~Courage is not the lack of fear~~
Quote:
Originally Posted by gooddragon1
If the party wizard can't survive a supersonic dragon made of iron at epic levels it's his own fault really.
Terrans have scans. And with many bases, many scans available. If I'm diving into Zerg territory, I'm scanning if I don't have a Raven with me. Why? Because I remember back when Zerg players actually used to use Burrow. And now they have Banelings and Baneling mines.
Am I a bit paranoid? Maybe.
If you watch pros, they do this as well. Admittably it is more to figure out enemy positioning, but still. Good habit to get into.
I can't wait to see a melding of the old zerg styles. With some bling mines, banerain for the mineral patches with the huge slow zerg army pushing up the middle at the same time.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabenson
Evil Intelligence is knowing the precise ritual that will allow you to destroy the peaceful kingdom that banished you.
Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.
You ever get one of those games that tells you that something is very wrong with your play? I just had one of those.
See, I've been on something of a losing streak vs toss. My macro slips or I miss a pylon and get my third swarmed by zealots or I forget to tech to ultras. So I go into this game, playing for all I'm worth like my opponent is a grandmaster, and feeling like I'm about to die to a massive push-out by my protoss opponent for most of the game.
http://www.sctemple.com/replay/254023/ Seriously, I was like "god, he's proxyraxing, I'm gonna get swamped in dudes faster than I can do anything, just gotta survive and I'm fine.
Wait. Where's the rax?
Really?
Really.
__________________
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When you contain them like that with mutas you should expand like a madman. At like 16 minutes you should have taken the top left and bottom right bases. Grab all the gases.
Also you did a remarkable job of spotting all those pylons he hid constantly around, even if you did miss one. You also should have known then that he sucked, who warps in 7 or 8 zealots to kill off the third? Thats 700-800 minerals to kill like 350 (300 for base + 50 for the drone)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thiyr
http://www.sctemple.com/replay/254023/ Seriously, I was like "god, he's proxyraxing, I'm gonna get swamped in dudes faster than I can do anything, just gotta survive and I'm fine.
Wait. Where's the rax?
Really?
Really.
Reminds me of a couple of when cheese fails.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabenson
Evil Intelligence is knowing the precise ritual that will allow you to destroy the peaceful kingdom that banished you.
Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.
Just played a fun game of ZvZ I felt like sharing. Check it out. Superhero infestors, crazy roach battles, mutalisk harassment, hidden bases, me flubbing my macro left and right. This game has it all!
I think my favorite part would have to be his "meh."
Also something super easy to do that is sometimes vital is to get upgrades for range over carapace for roach vs roach. You were getting both, but did +1 armor first which isn't as ideal.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alabenson
Evil Intelligence is knowing the precise ritual that will allow you to destroy the peaceful kingdom that banished you.
Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.
Also something super easy to do that is sometimes vital is to get upgrades for range over carapace for roach vs roach. You were getting both, but did +1 armor first which isn't as ideal.
I wasn't intending to get into roach fights at the start. I was planning to do muta/ling as my main plan, so I got +1 melee and +1 carapace. Things didn't quite go according to plan.
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