Warhammer 40k fluff thread VI: They see me Ward'en, they haten

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

The Chaos Gods can't just get involved in the material world, especially so close to Terra, without someone letting them in.

Wrong. They can do anything they want.
Otherwise read Horus Rising. We're shown exactly what happens.

The fact that the Emperor did not make more, implies that he couldn't. He may have needed an unholy deal or arcane powers to do it, and reasoned that he didn't want to do it again.

Show proof. Read Horus Rising about what happened to the lab.

The fact that Corax' super-marines weren't Primarchs implies that they were missing something: maybe they didn't get their vitamins, maybe they weren't bound together with magic.

They were missing something. Emperor's DNA. So Corax put his in.
...Then bad stuff happend - and no, it had nothing to do with Corax's DNA, but it's a massive spoiler. But, you can just check your Raven Guard lore.

The fact that he later banned sorcery implies that he may have had a bad experience himself.

Dur. His name was Magnus.

Ah, the Emperor, the worst Dad ever.

Horus Heresy, otherwise known as "No Dad, f* you!"

[maglag]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

1) You need to read up on the Raven Guard. Like, anything at all about them. There is an extremely good reason why no one else has tried to make Super-Marines since Corax did.

2) So...your arguement that 'it's magic' relies on the fact that a publicly editable, fan-made wiki doesn't mention something from a single novel?

1)This is 40K we're talking about. Between servants of "Let the Galaxy Burn!" chaos and fanatic loyalists that blow up their own planets out of petty grudges, someone somewhere would definetely want to try it again in 10.000 years.

2)Yes, I trust the wiki, codexes, majority of fans and games more that I trust a single obscure author. If he actually wrote that. Cheesegear himself was saying the Lexicanum was completely trustworthy a few minutes ago.

How convenient, the Lexicanum being only a valid source when it's convenient for you right?

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

"It doesn't say that it's not magic, so it is."
Perfect argument. Here, I found a scarecrow. It's full of straw.

Hiding behind cheap philosophy does not an argument make. You still didn't show anything that proves it is science, and have run out of reasons (even made up ones), therefore yes it is magic because it's the only reason that can explain the existence of limited-edition primarchs.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Show me why you believe the Emperor would use Sorcery? Where has he ever done this? Where is the precedent?

1-He just happens to be the fused souls of every human shaman/mage/sorceror/psychic prior to a certain era.
2-Grey Knights, a full chapter of sorcerors brewed by the emperor himself just before he decided Horus would be open to peaceful dialogue after butchering three legions of his own bros.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by maglag

2)Yes, I trust the wiki, codexes, majority of fans and games more that I trust a single obscure author.

Yeah. Gav Thorpe is obscure. After reading that, I'm done.

Lexicanum is good when it has the information. When it doesn't, it doesn't. Does Lexicanum say that Dorn puts Garro through a wall for talking s* about his brothers? No. Does that mean it didn't happen? Obviously.

[bluntpencil]

@ Maglag:

Grey Knights aren't sorcerers, they're psykers. Big difference.

A psyker can be pure, a sorcerer actively uses corrupt Warp energies.

It's actually explained better in Warhammer Fantasy, which works differently, I know. In Warhammer Fantasy, Dark Magic=Sorcery. Of course, all magic is dangerous, Chaotic crap, but Dark Magic/Sorcery actually involve arcane deals with daemons and forbidden rites.

@Cheesegear:

And surely, using the Emperor's DNA would require magic? And surely, since Corax is the Emperor's son, he has the Emperor's DNA in his own blood? Also, we have samples of the Emperor's blood kicking around, too, if we know where to look. (On Dorn's armour, on the Emperor's armour (apparently in every suit of Terminator Armour), on the Talon of Horus, on the Throne...)

Of course, I'm asking too much for scientific sense here, I think! :D

[maglag]

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

@ Maglag:

Grey Knights aren't sorcerers, they're psykers. Big difference.

Nope, the grey knights themselves admit and even gloat that they're sorcerors. All in their latest codex.

[Cheesegear]

Only because this response is easy...

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

And surely, using the Emperor's DNA would require magic?

Using the Emperor's DNA requires putting a needle in the Emperor and using what comes out.

And surely, since Corax is the Emperor's son, he has the Emperor's DNA in his own blood?

No, because Corax is Corax. Not the Emperor. That's like saying that your DNA is the same as your Dad's. That's why they turned out as Super-Raven Guard instead of Primarchs.

Why didn't Dad just give Corax his DNA? Well, because what happened later is exactly what the Emperor was afraid would happen (and he warned Corax too).

[maglag]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Lexicanum is good when it has the information. When it doesn't, it doesn't. Does Lexicanum say that Dorn puts Garro through a wall for talking s* about his brothers? No. Does that mean it didn't happen? Obviously.

Funny how you keep blatantly ignoring what the Lexicanum says:

Searching for a solution among the Librarium of the Ravenspire, Corax found the ancient books of genetic research providing the techniques used to create the first enhanced warriors of the Emperor, those techniques Corax duplicated to create Spaces Marines at a frightening rate.

Corax created his super marines with the tecniques used for the first enanched warriors of the Emperor. Which would be either Thunder Warriors or Adeptus Custodes. Not the primarchs.

There's a key diference between the lexicanum not saying something, and saying something that contradicts an obscure author.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by maglag

Searching for a solution among the Librarium of the Ravenspire, Corax found the ancient books of genetic research providing the techniques used to create the first enhanced warriors of the Emperor, those techniques Corax duplicated to create Spaces Marines at a frightening rate.[/i]

Corax created his super marines with the tecniques used for the first enanched warriors of the Emperor. Which would be either Thunder Warriors or Adeptus Custodes. Not the primarchs.

In Deliverance Lost, Corax goes to Terra. He speaks personally with Dorn and with Malcador. Runs through a maze and one of his psykers opens a psy-locked door and pretends nothing ever happened. Because if the psyker admits what he did - regardless that he needed to to get to the DNA - Corax would be forced to execute him due to the decree of Nikea.

Oops. That's not in Lexicanum. Didn't happen.

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Only because this response is easy...



Using the Emperor's DNA requires putting a needle in the Emperor and using what comes out.



No, because Corax is Corax. Not the Emperor. That's like saying that your DNA is the same as your Dad's. That's why they turned out as Super-Raven Guard instead of Primarchs.

Why didn't Dad just give Corax his DNA? Well, because what happened later is exactly what the Emperor was afraid would happen (and he warned Corax too).

To be fair, Corax could have simply did his sneaky thing that he's so good at and picked up toe-nail clippings or skin from somewhere.

And, actually, since the Primarchs don't have a mother, their DNA should be very similar to the Emperor's. Unless there was some weird and unspeakable experiments with women going on, and that's why they're all so different.

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by maglag

There's a key diference between the lexicanum not saying something, and saying something that contradicts an obscure author.

Gav Thorpe isn't obscure at all.

He's been one of GW's main guys for as long as I can remember... probably at least 15 years.

[Kinslayer]

Originally Posted by maglag

2)Yes, I trust the wiki, codexes, majority of fans and games more that I trust a single obscure author. If he actually wrote that. Cheesegear himself was saying the Lexicanum was completely trustworthy a few minutes ago.

He said it was a good source. These two statements are not mutually exclusive.

Originally Posted by maglag

Hiding behind cheap philosophy does not an argument make. You still didn't show anything that proves it is science, and have run out of reasons (even made up ones), therefore yes it is magic because it's the only reason that can explain the existence of limited-edition primarchs.

Okay, explain the Maus, Big Ben, Channel Tunnel, LHC, and a dozen other things that I can't think of. Just because science can make more, doesn't mean it will.

Originally Posted by maglag

1-He just happens to be the fused souls of every human shaman/mage/sorceror/psychic prior to a certain era.
2-Grey Knights, a full chapter of sorcerors brewed by the emperor himself just before he decided Horus would be open to peaceful dialogue after butchering three legions of his own bros.

1: More or less Defunct lore.
2: Buh? Even just going by Lexicanum the Emperor asked his best buddy Malcador to set the Grey Knights up for him from the best psyker recruits in the Loyalist legions. Sorcery, please.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

Unless there was some weird and unspeakable experiments with women going on, and that's why they're all so different.

There wasn't. They're all different because the Emperor wanted them different. Dorn the Champion, Guilliman the Tactician, Horus the Statesman, Lorgar the Speaker, Magnus the Scholar, etc. The Emperor wanted them that way so that they all wouldn't follow the same tactics and become stale and that they would be able to bounce ideas off of each other.

[maglag]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

In Deliverance Lost, Corax goes to Terra. He speaks personally with Dorn and with Malcador. Oops. That's not in Lexicanum. Didn't happen.

{Scrubbed}

The Lexicanum directly contradicted your obscure author by stating he did not use any primarch code for his super warriors. Both cannot be right. I suport the one that makes more sense, that Corax would've used mass-produced super-warrior code to mass-produce super warrior instead of using primarch code to mass-produce super warriors.

[Kinslayer]

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

Gav Thorpe isn't obscure at all.

He's been one of GW's main guys for as long as I can remember... probably at least 15 years.

Originally Posted by maglag

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

The Lexicanum directly contradicted your obscure author.

Listen. Matt Ward is a bit of an idiot. Gav Thorpe isn't obscure. You're not very good at avoiding insulting the other people involved in a conversation. I have a blueberry pi- Waitasecond.

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

There wasn't. They're all different because the Emperor wanted them different. Dorn the Champion, Guilliman the Tactician, Horus the Statesman, Lorgar the Speaker, Magnus the Scholar, etc. The Emperor wanted them that way so that they all wouldn't follow the same tactics and become stale and that they would be able to bounce ideas off of each other.

And he did this by screwing with their DNA?

Wow. Also, you'd think they would all look the exact same if this happened. At least Guilliman and Dorn would. Their brains would be different, but why hair colour? (Also, which one was ANGRON supposed to be? THE ANGRY ONE! :D )

He really should have filled a few million dataslates with the cure for every disease if he was that good at DNA type stuff.

Nurgle would be dead within a month.


Re: Not making more, a la Channel Tunnel, LHC etc... more are not made there, since they aren't needed. The Emperor could have used more Primarchs, to be honest, and tinkering with DNA wouldn't require vast resources if the research had already been done.

EDIT: Re: Experiments with women. My implication here is that the Primarchs got their different personality traits from potential mothers. The Emperor wanted Horus to be the pretty one, so took a pretty woman. He wanted ANGRON to be the ANGRY ONE, so took an angry woman. Etc.



@Kinslayer: Are you certain the creation of the Emperor is defunct?

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

Wow. Also, you'd think they would all look the exact same if this happened. At least Guilliman and Dorn would. Their brains would be different, but why hair colour?

They were stolen by Chaos. It can account for a lot. Let's take maglag's approach. Magic.

Maybe they were supposed to all look the same. We're never told what they looked like before Chaos took them. But, ultimately...Magnus is red. Vulkan is black. Not 'African black'. But, actual, onyx black. If it's not explained, then it's magic. Never mind that it's not explained because it's not important.

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

They were stolen by Chaos. It can account for a lot. Let's take maglag's approach. Magic.

Maybe they were supposed to all look the same. We're never told what they looked like before Chaos took them. But, ultimately...Magnus is red. Vulkan is black. Not 'African black'. But, actual, onyx black.

Fair call.

Still, if he could decide what their personalities would be like by altering their DNA alone, you'd think he'd be better spending his time curing every disease ever, and destroying 1/4 of the Chaos Gods in the process.

But no, he's the Emperor, and a megalomaniac, so decides to create super soldiers.

Actually, that does make sense, since he's a mental Space Nazi.

EDIT: Of course, why Chaos wanted Leman Russ to be Scandinavian and Jaghatai Khan to be Asian, I've no idea.

[Kinslayer]

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

@Kinslayer: Are you certain the creation of the Emperor is defunct?

Fairly sure. It isn't brought up as that anymore, and Outcast Dead gives the "Emperor is teh best of teh best of the evil really strong psyker lords that took over Terra for a while in the Age of Strife." This isn't nessecarily canon for the Emperor's past because it's secondhand myth at best.

And since the Horus Heresy is being fluffed out but the Emperor hasn't given his word on it yet, anything is possible.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

Still, if he could decide what their personalities would be like by altering their DNA alone, you'd think he'd be better spending his time curing every disease ever, and destroying 1/4 of the Chaos Gods in the process.

Nurgle is actually Life, not Disease.

If the Necrons win, I guess Nurgle dies

[Cheesegear]

Whenever you want to know why somebody did or didn't do something, either
a) It's explained in a book, or
b) It makes a better story that way, one way or another (there are 21[19] Primarchs because that's what they could come up with), or
c) It doesn't matter, it's not important, so the writers didn't bother including it.

Read any book. When a character looks at 'the sky', do you automatically assume the sky is blue? Did the author need to explain that in this fantasy or sci-fi universe that the sky wasn't blue? Probably not. Because it really doesn't matter, unless it does. And, if the sky's colour does matter, it's going to be explained.

[Squark]

I could see a fairly simple reason why the emperor would change projects after the Chaos gods stole the primarchs away; He decided to stop putting all his eggs in one basket.

As for the primarch notes stuff being unreproducible; A) I think some of them were lost somewhere down the line, or controlling the Canis Helix would not have been the monumental feat of research it was. and B) I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the Emperor's notes involved concepts that the Imperium lost somewhere during the next few millenia after putting him on life support.

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter

Nurgle is actually Life, not Disease.

If the Necrons win, I guess Nurgle dies

I think they're all life, actually.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter

Nurgle is actually Life, not Disease.

Nurgle is Death, or rather, Fear of Death, or just Fear. Which is the emotion that powers him. Nurgle is 'Life' insofar as he 'isn't Death', but he's certainly not a God of Life. He is a God of Decay and Pestilence. He is a God of the Dying. Not of the living, but not the dead, either. Hence; Plague Zombies.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

I think they're all life, actually.

Aren't they just robots now? I'm not up on current Necron Fluff.

@Cheesegear -- I thought Nurgle's "good side" was Life. Y'know, like Tzeentch is "Hope"

[bluntpencil]

Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter

Aren't they just robots now? I'm not up on current Necron Fluff.

@Cheesegear -- I thought Nurgle's "good side" was Life. Y'know, like Tzeentch is "Hope"

No, the Chaos Gods are all Gods of Life... and the emotions associated with it. Fear, Anger, Hope, Passion etc. If everyone except the Necrons died, the Chaos Gods would die.

If they have good sides, they tend to be more emotional, not concepts like 'life'. Khorne would be 'honour' for instance, Nurgle could, maybe, be 'compassion', by some arguments, but, to be honest, they're evil freaks and it gets too complicated, I think.

[Cheesegear]

Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter

@Cheesegear -- I thought Nurgle's "good side" was Life. Y'know, like Tzeentch is "Hope"

I really don't think they have 'good sides' anymore. I know what you mean. That stuff is from Liber Chaotica, or maybe Realms of Chaos, which are books that aren't printed anymore and aren't mentioned anywhere in current canon that I know of. Khorne isn't 'honourable' at all. A skull is a skull. As long as you don't do it through Sorcery, he'll take it. And even then, there are some Sorcerers dedicated to Khorne.
(inb4 World Eaters nonsense. Sorcerers aren't in the World Eaters Legion, they're everywhere else)

However, Nurgle is the 'nice one'. Papa Nurgle. He loves you.

The best way I have heard it explained is thus;

You ask a Chaos God for help;
Khorne says; "Only if you do [this]."
Tzeentch says; "Maybe."
Slaanesh says; "Why should I?"
Nurgle smiles and says; "Sure."

...Nurgle being the one who puts you through the most Hell.

[Zorg]

Originally Posted by Kinslayer

Fairly sure. It isn't brought up as that anymore, and Outcast Dead gives the "Emperor is teh best of teh best of the evil really strong psyker lords that took over Terra for a while in the Age of Strife." This isn't nessecarily canon for the Emperor's past because it's secondhand myth at best.

And since the Horus Heresy is being fluffed out but the Emperor hasn't given his word on it yet, anything is possible.

I'm away from my books at the moment but in one of the early HH novels Horus relates how he has a ring that used to be the Emperor's from the ancient middle east. In Mechanicum the Emperor is shown as St George fighting the dragon.
I have a vague recollection of the Emperor, or someone else talking, about his origin and it being the shaman one. Can someone with access to the 5th ed BRB have a look at the timeline?
It is possible I'm having edition leakage here, 20+ years of background'll do that to you, but there are certainly plenty of hints and clues that the Emperor has been around since pre-history.


Re: Raven Guard. Corax goes to the Emperor's secret bunker to retrieve intel about the genetic manipulation that is the core of creating any of the superhumans but, as stated by the Emperor, it is the packed up remains of the Primarch lab.
The bunker is intended for future use by humanity as the Emperor knows his reign may one day fall (hence the Ozymandis line), and there is nothing sorcerous about the knowledge stated or implied.

[Issabella]

Having been inspired to do a Night Lords army, mostly by the recent series of books I had a few lore questions about the Heresy era time line, and events. If some one could fill in/and/or correct me it would be appreciated?


1- Konrad Cruze the Primarch says something disturbing to Fulgrim, who runs off and tells Dorn? Dorn calls out Konrad for his behavior and gets Mauled? (this was word of mouth, was trying to find a source, did Cruze physically assault Dorn?)

2- Cruze returns to Nostromo to purge it (realizing recruiting gangers and murders into the legion poisoned it). He did this after the fall out with Dorn, but for some reason was suspected to be sane enough to hep put down Horus's rebellion, thus taking part in the drop site massacre?

3- During the Drop site massacre he fights Corax forcing him to flee?

4- Following the Dropsite massacre spends 2+ years in a hit and run war with the Dark Angels, preventing them from re-joining the loyalists. Culminating in a wonderful primarch on primarch knock down brawl where he almost kills the Lion?

5- At some point rejoins the rest of the Traitors in the final attack on Terra, defeat ensues. Rather then flee to the Eye of Terror, his legion makes it way back to the far eastern fringe for a century + of terror caimpaign. Finally he allows a imperial assassin to kill him for vindication of his philosophy.

6- The VIII then begins to fragment into conflicting warbands as there was no heir (Sevatar being dead) to hold them together. Eventually the XIII and all its successor chapters drive them from their new adopted home world finally fragmenting them into different groups?

[Kinslayer]

Originally Posted by Zorg

I'm away from my books at the moment but in one of the early HH novels Horus relates how he has a ring that used to be the Emperor's from the ancient middle east. In Mechanicum the Emperor is shown as St George fighting the dragon.
I have a vague recollection of the Emperor, or someone else talking, about his origin and it being the shaman one. Can someone with access to the 5th ed BRB have a look at the timeline?
It is possible I'm having edition leakage here, 20+ years of background'll do that to you, but there are certainly plenty of hints and clues that the Emperor has been around since pre-history.

There are other histories stated in the HH books, I was just quoting the most recent one that was stuck in my head. I don't believe the shaman version is mentioned, though. Especially not by Him personally. Could be he's just one stylishly immortal human. Or maybe he's none of the above and just cashing in on the rep. (Hella unlikely)

[Hazzardevil]

This is a huge lot of someone with comparitively little knowledge on the lore answering and asking.

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

First you have to decide what he looks like. Even official artwork varies wildly on his appearance, let alone fan depictions.

I was thinking of this one:

Spoiler

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Which doesn't exist anymore.
The Star Child is a weapon of the C'Tan (Star Gods, hint, hint), the greatest weapon against Chaos that the galaxy has ever known.

Since the Star Gods no longer exist, the fluff surrounding the Star Child is likewise retconned out of existence.

Is there anywhere I can find out about this star child theory? I keep finding mentions of it but no actual explanation.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

'Sort of', being the operative phrase. What Thorians are actually trying to do is find a super-saint. Kind of like a Champion of the Emperor in opposition to Abbadon. One such a person - they believe - was Sebastian Thor, hence the name.

Only crazy people actually want to kill the Emperor. Since killing the Emperor is unthinkable to pretty much everyone alive. Whether the theory is solid or not. Because - you guessed it - the Star Child is no longer canon.

Would it be killing the emperor if the star child theory is true, turning off the machine? I doubt the theorists believe it is.

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

1) You need to read up on the Raven Guard. Like, anything at all about them. There is an extremely good reason why no one else has tried to make Super-Marines since Corax did.

Where can I find super-marines? Are they somewhere between Primarchs and Terminators?

Originally Posted by bluntpencil

@ Maglag:

Grey Knights aren't sorcerers, they're psykers. Big difference.

A psyker can be pure, a sorcerer actively uses corrupt Warp energies.

So, all sorcerers are psykers, all psykers are psychics? But not all psychics are psykers or sorcerers?
I think Psykers are just psychics with training in the art of blowing stuff up.

Originally Posted by Cheesegear

There wasn't. They're all different because the Emperor wanted them different. Dorn the Champion, Guilliman the Tactician, Horus the Statesman, Lorgar the Speaker, Magnus the Scholar, etc. The Emperor wanted them that way so that they all wouldn't follow the same tactics and become stale and that they would be able to bounce ideas off of each other.

I though they were different because in 40K, nurture trumps nature?

Originally Posted by Zorg

I have a vague recollection of the Emperor, or someone else talking, about his origin and it being the shaman one. Can someone with access to the 5th ed BRB have a look at the timeline?

I believe the latest one was he was formed in the 3rd millenium out of the combination of all of some kind of special psychics souls merged together through mass cyanide tablets. If this is true, the emperor can't be ST. George

Originally Posted by Kinslayer

There are other histories stated in the HH books, I was just quoting the most recent one that was stuck in my head. I don't believe the shaman version is mentioned, though. Especially not by Him personally. Could be he's just one stylishly immortal human. Or maybe he's none of the above and just cashing in on the rep. (Hella unlikely)

I think the Shaman version is canon Right Now.

Also, to add a bit on, what is it in Chainswords that makes the blade spin? Since I don't think it says anywhere.