Number of Character Appearances IV

[Flame of Anor]

Originally Posted by Cizak

So if Belkar were to ever dip his head in white paint to imitate and mock Xykon and the MitD would think Belkar was Xykon, would Xykon gain an appearance?

I tend to be skeptical of the helpfulness of counting the appearances of impersonators, but under the current rules I believe this would count.

[Wrecan]

We'll worry about hypotheticals when they become actualities. As far as I can tell, we have two choices. Disguises don't count as the character being impersonated, or we continue to count disguises as the person being impersonated. Once we decide to only count the disguises that we as a community (in a manner to be determined... how?) think are sufficiently believable, the whole thread is in the crapper.

This standard would also apply to illusions. Does the prison illusion of Belkar count as an appearance for Belkar, even though it uses dialogue Belkar would never say? (We did count it, by the way.) What if the illusion were slightly less believable (yet still believed by the guards)? What if the illusory Belkar had a Hannibal Lecter like mask so you couldn't see his face, but was still Small size, and still used stilted dialogue Belkar wouldn't say?

Once we open this up to subjective interpretation, it's a nightmare.

[Flame of Anor]

The most important question for me is: do these disguise/illusion appearances count towards the main total of appearances? For example, Shojo is at 35+16+12. Does Belkar's disguise as Shojo in order to trick Thanh count towards that 35? If so, I think we may want to rethink this.

I have nothing against tallying the appearances of characters that aren't actually them, but I don't think we should lump them in with appearances that are actually them.

[Emanick]

Originally Posted by Flame of Anor

The most important question for me is: do these disguise/illusion appearances count towards the main total of appearances? For example, Shojo is at 35+16+12. Does Belkar's disguise as Shojo in order to trick Thanh count towards that 35? If so, I think we may want to rethink this.

I have nothing against tallying the appearances of characters that aren't actually them, but I don't think we should lump them in with appearances that are actually them.

Yeah, I'm with Flame of Anor. I feel like it doesn't make much sense to consider characters to have 'appeared' when they aren't actually in the comic, even if somebody is pretending that they have. In-comic reality should be prioritized over in-comic pretense and art, IMO.

[Wrecan]

What about...

• Xykon in Elan's summoned exposition
• Xykon as a statue
• Redcloak on a banner

We count all of these representations of the character as a character appearance (and not just as an alteration), even though it's not the physical body of the character making an appearance. We always have, since well before I was the one doing the tracking.

And yes, we counted Belkar's poorly made disguise as Shojo.

Originally Posted by Wrecan

Q. What counts as an appearance?

A. Any likeness of the character being visible (so Elan's appearance on Nale's blueprint counts, and Belkar's self-portrait in blood counts) and any dialog from a character, even if "off-panel" or invisible (so the strip where the party is in the invisibility sphere counts for each of the main characters). Also, when someone appears as someone else (for instance when Nale impersonates Elan), that counts as an appearance for both the character in disguise and the character being impersonated.

[Wrecan]

And for the record, even if we were to change the rule, I have no desire to go back through the last 800-something comics and separate out "actual" appearances from non-actual appearances. It's not going to happen.

[oppyu]

Originally Posted by Wrecan

And for the record, even if we were to change the rule, I have no desire to go back through the last 800-something comics and separate out "actual" appearances from non-actual appearances. It's not going to happen.

Now we have the winning argument. If you want the 'correct' numbers, go through the 853 strips + extras yourself.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'd actually be willing to go through every strip to track down every single "fake" appearance (with people pointing out anything I missed and any errors, natch). Though some questions for the people against counting representations:

-Do corpses and soulless undead count? For example, if Roy's corpse is in a strip but his spirit isn't, is that still an "actual" appearance?

-What about petrified characters? They're technically objects and not living creatures.

-Do illusions that double as recordings count? (Giant illusory head of Shojo and Girard's fake location illusion.)

-It wasn't clear as to whether Shojo actually appeared to Belkar or not. (I'm inclined to think that it was Belkar's subconscious projecting itself as Shojo.) Should that count as an actual appearance?

-What about hypothetical scenarios like the archfiends' alternate plan for V or imagined scenarios like when Elan imagines Tarquin adopting Roy?

[Flame of Anor]

Originally Posted by Wrecan

What about...

• Xykon in Elan's summoned exposition
• Xykon as a statue
• Redcloak on a banner

We count all of these representations of the character as a character appearance (and not just as an alteration), even though it's not the physical body of the character making an appearance. We always have, since well before I was the one doing the tracking.

I would like not to count those either. The tallying problem is a problem. If we can decide on a revised system, though, we can phase in the new counts as people do them (with [old] and [new] tags).

[Wrecan]

Well, that will require someone else to run this thread, because I'm not going to bother with tags.

[oppyu]

We should have competing 'Number of Character Appearances' threads, with the winner being whomever gets the most votes and replies in a pre-determined period of time. The winner will then be able to post a long, vituperative rant in their opponent's thread about how stupid their method is and how only a character's physical appearance should count/how a visual representation of a person counts as that person being shown in-comic. And also the loser's spouse and/or first-born child.

[Wrecan]

It's really simple. If someone wants to count all the appearances (including bonus materials) and excise all the non-physical appearances, and start a new thread and commit to updating it, I'll stop updating this thread

[Onyavar]

Well, I'm fine with counting illusions, statues, images.

But in my opinion, every person should be counted once in a comic. With that rule it would be very easy to count out impersonations.

Still, the impersonations are rare.
So far, we had only three impersonations (one character posing as another) I can remember: Belkar as Shojo, Tarquin as Thog (4x) and Elan as Cliffport Prison Warden.
Anything else?

Alternate selfs and non-specific disguises are more common: Elan as Ogre, Blackwing as Mexican merchant, Celia as Darkblood Gloomgloom, V as lizard/dragon/badger...

[Wrecan]

Does that mean you're volunteering to start and maintain a new thread?

[137ben]

I agree with Wrecan, it isn't really worth going back though every strip for a rule change.

[Onyavar]

Originally Posted by Wrecan

Does that mean you're volunteering to start and maintain a new thread?

Me? No.
I will maintain the Speech Bubbles thread and the german translation thread. That's totally enough. We certainly don't need 2 threads devoted to the exact same topic just with different rules. And as mentioned, the doubled counts of "character X impersonates charakter Y" are so rare, that you can count them using one hand.

[Wrecan]

Except I have absolutely zero problem counting an impersonation as both the impersonator and the impersonated. Other people do. I'm not changing the way I count things.

[St Fan]

I would agree that changing the way characters are counted now would be way too much a hassle considering how avanced is this thread, however there's one question that just popped in my head:

If we count impersonations as character appearances, then does Nale posing as Elan count for Elan's total?

[Wrecan]

Yes, it does, and we did count those at the time, as mentioned here.

[Onyavar]

Originally Posted by St Fan

If we count impersonations as character appearances, then does Nale posing as Elan count for Elan's total?

Originally Posted by Wrecan

Yes, it does, and we did count those at the time, as mentioned here.

Oh. Wow. I forgot about that one. I see that Elans unvoluntary impersonation of Nale also counted. Ah, okay.

[ti'esar]

854: Malack, Nale, Qarr, Sabine, Tarquin

[Wrecan]

Updated through 854
Malack, Nale, Qarr, Sabine, Tarquin

[137ben]

One reason I think this thread's method makes more since than number of speech bubbles is that in the other thread, Mr. Scruffy has 0 bubbles. That is treason to the king of Azure city

[ti'esar]

Wow - every character in this strip has only one name. Looks kind of weird.

Malack is now just two appearances away from reaching the "Frequent Characters".

[Wrecan]

Updated through 855
Belkar Bitterleaf, Durkon Thundershield, Elan, Haley Starshine, Roy Greenhilt

[ti'esar]

856: Girard Draketooth (on the mural), Kilkil, Malack, Nale, Qarr, Sabine, Tarquin, Zz'dtri.

We've also seen some of these Draketooth mummies before, though the only one I remember seeing counted individually was the Draketooth Comedian.

Not sure if anything else on the mural is identifiable.

[RMS Oceanic]

I can't remeber if we decided to include them, but we can also see the Draketooth Progenitor Dragon, Girard's Grandmother, Father, Aunt, Brother and Sister.

[Snippy]

Originally Posted by ti'esar

We've also seen some of these Draketooth mummies before, though the only one I remember seeing counted individually was the Draketooth Comedian.

Draketooth with braided hair appears in the current comic. All the others have appeared once in the 'Lunchtime' comic, so since that's two appearances they'll all have to be catalogued.

I think that's how it works, anyway.

[Wrecan]

Updated through 856
Draketooth by Entrance, Draketooth Genealogy (on Genealogical Chart), Draketooth Progenitor Dragon (on Genealogical Chart), Draketooth with Belt (as Mummy), Draketooth with Bodice (as Mummy), Draketooth with Braided Hair (as Mummy), Draketooth with Goatee (as Mummy), Draketooth with Ponytail (as Mummy), Draketooth with Purple Shirt (as Mummy), Girard Draketooth (on Genealogical Chart), Kilkil, Nale, Malack, Qarr, Sabine, Tarquin, Zz'dtri

Okay, I've decided not to try to parse out the various family members on the genealogical chart. Instead I'm just giving "Draketooth Genealogy" an appearance everytime the chart appears. The only exceptions, for now, are Girard and the Draketooth Progenitor Dragon. If we learn, for example, which pictograph represents Orrin, we'll amend the list accordingly.

I think that's Draketooth Comedian on the ground. He isn't a mummy.

The six Draketooth Mummies are, from left to right: Draketooth with Ponytail, Draketooth with Goatee, Draketooth with Braided Hair, Draketooth with Belt, Draketooth with Bodice, and Draketooth with Purple Shirt.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think his hair is a little too messy to be the Draketooth Comedian. I'm not sure, though.