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OK, I've been presented with a potential 3.5 game for the summer. The GM wants to run something with a lot of politics, intrigue, and spy-stuff. My initial inclination was to go for the noble-hearted duelist-type, but... but... something in my soul is tempting me to be the swashbuckling rogue. Specifically, the smoothe-handed, smooth-talking bastard who is handy with a blade, cultured, mulit-lingual, and well-educated (downright MacGuiver-like), but is notorious for leaving a trail of broken hearts, even among those who know better (hence the necesity of being handy with a blade)! Yes, this says "Bluff, bluff, bluff to seduce," but the build is what has me indecisive. I want Swashbuckler levels (at least 4), but should I multiclass as Rogue, Bard, Factotum, Savant, or Beguiler?
Edit: "Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic," Strip # 549, "Da Ruelz," Nov. 28, 2007. Yes, THAT smoothe!
Last edited by Suteinu : 05-28-2012 at 05:05 PM.
Reason: Adding
Well, first off I'll ask, why 4 levels? Most people tend to break off at 3, since 4 doesn't give you anything.
Anyways, Bard is a good choice (my favorite base class) but it would lose some of it's potency with the Swashbuckler multi-classing. Rogue is good if you take Daring Outlaw. Scout with the Riposte acf can be useful and thematic (see if your DM will let it count as SA for the purpose of taking Daring Outlaw). Factotum is quite useful and meshes very well with Swashbuckler.
I'm not too familiar with Savant, but from what I understand it isn't that great compared to Factotum. Beguiler suffers a lot from losing caster levels.
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Well, first off I'll ask, why 4 levels? Most people tend to break off at 3, since 4 doesn't give you anything.
Anyways, Bard is a good choice (my favorite base class) but it would lose some of it's potency with the Swashbuckler multi-classing. Rogue is good if you take Daring Outlaw. Scout with the Riposte acf can be useful and thematic (see if your DM will let it count as SA for the purpose of taking Daring Outlaw). Factotum is quite useful and meshes very well with Swashbuckler.
I'm not too familiar with Savant, but from what I understand it isn't that great compared to Factotum. Beguiler suffers a lot from losing caster levels.
Actually, our house-rule Swashbuckler fix includes Riposte as a regular class feature; a small fix, but along with a base 6 skill points and the Seduction class feature, significant. Especially good w/ Daring Outlaw, to be sure, and the best reason for Rogue levels, but the Factotum is SOOOOOO tempting!
By the by, Waker, cool icon. Reminds me of A Clockwork Orange, but with sharper teeth...
Last edited by Suteinu : 05-28-2012 at 05:15 PM.
Reason: Add
I would go with Human Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 5/Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler X.
At 1st level, take Able Learner (and later Daring Outlaw), and you now have all of the Rogue's really good, really flavorful class features (wide skill list (though not as many skill points), trapfinding, sneak attack) on a d10 hit die with full BAB. Take the Shield of Blades alternative class feature in Player's Handbook II for Swashbuckler, and at 9th level take Shadow Blade and Assassin's Stance, for Dex to damage and +2d6 sneak attack. Fight with two weapons, pick a buddy you like to flank with, and deal ungodly amounts of damage in melee while still having the hit points and attack bonus to perform, unlike standard rogue.
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Awesome Talon avatar by Ceika.
Last edited by Rhaegar14 : 05-28-2012 at 05:27 PM.
Hmm does the Riposte that you are following work exactly as the Scout or is it different in some fashion? With that Houserule, taking Daring Outlaw is a very solid choice.
I do also like the Factotum, is there some particular aspect of the class that you wanted to utilize?
As for my avatar, its from an online webcomic called Charby the Vampirate, the character is a disguised Tony VonHarnier.
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+1 to Rhaegar's build. If you can use the Kung Fu Genius feat, I'd even dip Swordsage for two levels.
Check with your DM if Daring Outlaw progresses shield of blades (by RAW, it only advances Dodge bonus).
Also, you want to strongly consider the Penetrating Strike Rogue ACF out of Dungeonscape. It gets rid of Trap Sense, and in exchange lets you keep half your SA dice when flanking enemies that are normally immune to it, which prevents your damage output from falling quite as hard if you have to fight Undead or Constructs.
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My players met in a mountain pass on their way to a celebratory feast, that was then ambushed by a draconic army. Good times.
A level of bard with the Half Elf racial substitution level will let you pick up the abillity to spend a daily use of music to create the effects of a Calm Emotions spell with a DC equal to your Perform check. Since creatures that are being calmed can't take aggressive actions against you, it's a good option to talk yourself out of situations where people would normally be hitting you in the face.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waker
[..] that post by Crasical...I can't find the words. Were I capable of emotion, I would cry.
Hmm does the Riposte that you are following work exactly as the Scout or is it different in some fashion? With that Houserule, taking Daring Outlaw is a very solid choice.
I do also like the Factotum, is there some particular aspect of the class that you wanted to utilize?
Yes, the Riposte is as from the "civilized" Scout, and what I like about the Factotum so much is the extreme versitility, its "all things to all men" approach to adventuring. It works well as a skill-monkey, and while it might not be able to take on the hordes by itself, it can surely escape them.
Rhaegar14: You better believe I'm looking hard at Penetrating Strike! Vampires are notorious mastermind-types, and I want to be ready! I think that, if I trade Rge or Fct's Trapsense for it, I can get my GM to let it add to the extra Riposte damage (`e's a good bloke).
Crasical: Where do I find Calm Emotions? (And don't tell me that they're in the Calm Emotions section of the library!)
The Calm Emotions ability is a Half-Elf Bard racial acf in Races of Destiny pg157. Basically you need three ranks of Diplomacy, expend a use of Bardic music and make a Diplomacy check. Your result is the DC that the creatures need to beat, if they fail they are affected as if by Calm Emotions. Replaces Countersong.
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why choose one? I'm currently trying out something similar with swashbuckler, but I'm not choosing just one. 3swash/3factotum/2rogue/1ambush fighter ACF/1-2sworsage tossed on for good measure, and in no particular order. grab that calm emotions thing (that one's new to me) and adding dex to damage vs flatfooted foes (from the ambush fighter, its in drow of the underdark.) not real elegant, and only a bit better than caster bab, but with some pumped int and dex, weapon finesse/cunning insight/snowflake wardance (if you have decent cha) means you dont really need a high attack bonus. add a lvl of master of masks for a cheap +2d6 sneak attack die and you're sittin pretty on a pile of corpses (something like 7d6 sneak attack die without any magic items, though you should snag a rogue's vest, deadly precision weapon, and a mantle of the predator for another handful of dice to roll). slap on 5 lvls invisible blade and take off your armor, you can face down enemies without needing to flank.
not the cheesiest or most OP, but its got all the things I like in it
I finally started rolling stats and stuff last night, did a little more research, and, like you Mr. Rickshaw, came to the conclusion that one pick simply wouldn't do. I also tend to build based in "fluff (I'm getting the idea that he's a pretty cool mix of Aramis and D'Artagnan)," so I think I'm going to go with Bard 1 (for that really cool and appropriate Calm Emotions thing), Swashbuckler 4 (at least; my homebrew is pretty good I think; I'll post it when I get a chance), Rogue 3 (w/ Penetrating Strike, of course), and... well, thereafter, we'll see what plays best and maybe what the group needs. I like the reminder of the Ambush Fighter...
Oh, feats a level 1: One-Eyed (flaw; -2 Search & Spot, plus roguish good looks), Able Learner, Deadly Defense (for that Destreza edge), and Extra Music. So far, so good.
Turns out that my companions thus far are a fiery-tempered and fiery-haired swordswoman bent on forging a dangerous reputation and a road to vengence for some past slight (Human, Ferocious Bbn w/ Warblade in her future), an elvish "potential Bladesinger" w/ a daishalar, a bow, and a tollerating but "speciist" attitude (Gray elf, Duskblade, looking to master a style or two from a copy of Dragon), and a Batm- ahem, crafty court magician who has his fingers into everyone's pies ("Sir Walter Reighly built as a Wizard," the player described him). Two more players yet to declair!
Nothing wrong with grabbing Bard, but since you have that Swashbuckler homebrew, I still think you should consider grabbing Daring Outlaw to progress your sneak attack more.
Or perhaps your DM could make another homebrew feat, something like Daring Performer.
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I'm currently playing a character that will eventually be rogue 16/swashbuckler 3/Shadowdancer 1 with Greater Two weapon Fighting, Daring Outlaw, Crippling Strike, Skill Mastery and Savvy Rogue (for Take 12 . Still can't decide what to take for the last special ability.
Now that I have Hide in Plain Sight at level 8, you can get a lot of sneak attacks, even without a flanking buddy. But generally that is more of a skillmonkey build.
I'm currently playing a character that will eventually be rogue 16/swashbuckler 3/Shadowdancer 1 with Greater Two weapon Fighting, Daring Outlaw, Crippling Strike, Skill Mastery and Savvy Rogue. Still can't decide what to take for the last special ability.
Now that I have Hide in Plain Sight at level 8, you can get a lot of sneak attacks, even without a flanking buddy. But generally that is more of a skillmonkey build.
I have to say Daring Outlaw seems like a horrendous feat option in that way, or in any other build with more Rogue than Swashbuckler.
Nothing wrong with grabbing Bard, but since you have that Swashbuckler homebrew, I still think you should consider grabbing Daring Outlaw to progress your sneak attack more.
Or perhaps your DM could make another homebrew feat, something like Daring Performer.
Rest assured, I fully intend to get the ol' DA, along with a couple of fencery feats. Which fencery feats is a connundrum, but I've got a little time yet to decide...
I have to say Daring Outlaw seems like a horrendous feat option in that way, or in any other build with more Rogue than Swashbuckler.
It does not do much for the sneak attack damage (+1d6) but you get way better grace and dodge bonus than without it. Any suggestion what to take instead of it?
the fun thing about invisible blade is that the pre-reqs are only a couple skill ranks and a feat away from qualifying as master thrower (if you take weapon focus Daggers, of course)
It does not do much for the sneak attack damage (+1d6) but you get way better grace and dodge bonus than without it. Any suggestion what to take instead of it?
I'd go with more Swash levels over Rogue, but that's just me. Grace and Doge are quite weak class features on their own (unless your DM does it like I do; I run a most Pathfinder game so I consider that Swashbuckler's dodge adds to all attacks, like the PF Dodge feat).
If you drop Daring Outlaw, you can get Arcane Stunt - blur as a swift action is a lot better than an extra +2d6 sneak attack, IMHO.
On behalf of player #5, who wants to play a swashbuckling Paladin:
His idea is D'Artagnan-like: a country boy who is a natural swordsman. Noble of spirit, idolizes the Cuthbertine Billet from the town where he grew-up. Player plans on building him as a bodyguard/ duelist. Not opposed to multiclassing or PrC's, but wants to be as Paladin as possible. Whaddawee do?!?!?!?
Paladin in 3.5e from any kind of optimization standpoint means "play a Crusader." Crusaders are one of the only classes that can "tank" effectively as well. An alternative option would be Prestige Paladin out of UA.
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My players met in a mountain pass on their way to a celebratory feast, that was then ambushed by a draconic army. Good times.
Do you mean paladin as a way of life or as a skill set?
The former is easy, just put lawful good on the character sheet and roleplay accordingly. The latter (gish, smite evil, turn undead) is not so easy and does not have much synergy with swashbuckler.
Maybe use Favored Soul, Swashbuckler and a High AB divine caster prc.
Crusader? Isn't the whole random maneuvers pretty annoying?
Someone on here somewhere put it rather elegantly as, "A random selection from a list of awesome is still awesome."
Also, many argue it's better than Warblade's recovery mechanic, as they always have a maneuver to use.
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78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
My players met in a mountain pass on their way to a celebratory feast, that was then ambushed by a draconic army. Good times.
Well, aside from the obvious take levels in Paladin (Justice or Freedom) and wield a rapier, I can make a few suggestions. Most of these are from Champions of Valor, but if your DM has no difficulty porting over Faerun stuff, it's all good.
Harmonious Knight- Get Perform as a class skills, replace a few paladin abilities with Bardic Music.
Ruby Rose Knight- d8 HD, Bluff/Perform as class skills, immune to cha drain/damage, heroism and an inspiring hug.
Stand Fast- Lose Mount. Gain ability to grant allies your Charisma bonus on saves for 1 round. Or gain your charisma bonus to resist bull rush, disarm, grapple, sunder or trip.
Shadow Cloak Knight- Hide/Move Silently as class skills, favored enemy, hide in plain sight, 1/day invisibility.
Underdark Knight- Lose Mount, gain low-light vision, bonus of balance climb, jump. Several SLAs.
Wayward Warden- Enemies get a penalty to spot/listen when you are around. Gain sneak attack when flanking larger enemies. Grant allies a bonus to hit based on your charisma.
Another potential option is to go Mystic Fire Knight (grants wizard spells) and then take levels in Swiftblade for a high speed knight.
Don't forget to use Cityscape to replace your Ride skill with Tumble.
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Harmonious Knight- Get Perform as a class skills, replace a few paladin abilities with Bardic Music.
Hehe. Do THIS!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crasical
There's a spell called Undersong in a book called Champions of Ruin which lets you substitute a Perform check for any Concentrate check you'd make in the next minute/caster level. A ring of Undersong costs only 8k gold.
The Complete Warrior has a special Perform variant called Weapon Drill, where you show off your mastery of a weapon for a bit, adding half your BAB and getting an untyped +2 for each of a list of martial-type feats you might have.
The Diamond Mind Maneuvers Action before Thought, Mind over Body, and Moment of Perfect Mind let you make Concentrate checks instead of Reflex, Fort, or Will saves.
Diamond, Ruby, and Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Insightful strike and Greater Insightful Strike all use Concentrate checks to attack things.
Take an Adamantine weapon for flavor. You can now cut just about everything. Mind control magic? Cut it. Poison? Cut it. Fireball? Cut it. Go wild. Parry lightning. If it allows a save, cut it.
Jade Dragon, that post by Crasical...I can't find the words. Were I capable of emotion, I would cry.
After thinking about it though, I would say that Ruby Rose Knight would be better. They get Perform, but they are also immune to Cha damage/drain. Go with Stand Fast from cityscape to add your Charisma bonus to resist the special attacks I listed above. I wish I could remember how to get Charisma to spells in place of Wisdom, but the only thing I can think of it Lost Tradition.
Make a super charisma focused paladin.
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I do agree with you ThiagoMartell, but I could argue for this guy too
Spoiler
Because this man has a song in his heart and the music never dies!
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Not Another Swashbuckler Build!
Whaddawee do?!?!?!?
