Fixing SKR's Feat Point System

[sonofzeal]

Sean K Reynold's Feat Point System sounds like a wonderful thing. Much of his writeup is legitimately insightful, and the mechanics he chose are good ones.

The problem is in his ranking. Serious and systemic flaws in his perspective cause him to massively overvalue certain poor feats like Two Weapon Fighting (according to him, the best feat in core), and critically undervalue excellent feats like Natural Spell (according to him, one of the weakest feats in core).

This is my attempt to re-assign the point values. Any and all suggestions are appreciated. I think my initial scorings here are considerably more accurate than SKR's, but there will undoubtedly be flaws that need to be corrected.

Please feel free to provide your own rankings!


SKR's Mechanics:

Spoiler

Feat Points
Each time a character gains a feat, she instead gets 10 feat points which she can use to purchase feats. Characters must still meet all prerequisites as normal. Unspent feat points carry over from level to level, but a character can only purchase feats with feat points at the times in her adventuring career when she could normally select a feat, even if she has extra feat points left over (for example, a character with 6 feat points left over from character level 3 could not spend them until level 6--the next level at which she gains a feat) .


A class that grants bonus feats grants bonus feat points of the appropriate type. For example, the fighter class gives 10 fighter feat points at levels 1, 2, 4, 6, and so on. Typed feat points can only be used on feats of the appropriate type, so a fighter can only use his fighter feat points to purchase fighter feats. However, any normal (typeless) feat points can be combined with typed feat points to purchase typed feats. You can still only use these feat points to purchase feats of the type you could normally purchase at that level.
Example:Tegdar is a human ftr1 with 3 typeless feat points left over from 1st level. He reaches 2nd level and gains 10 fighter feat points. Tegdar decides to use 7 of those points to purchase Combat Reflexes (cost: 7 points) , leaving him with 3 fighter feat points and 3 normal feat points. He decides to combine these feat points and purchase Far Shot (cost: 6points) . He now is completely out of feat points. He could not have used his 3 normal feat points to purchase feats other than fighter feats because he can only select those feats at level 1, 3, 6, and so on.

Feat Point Debt
At 1st level, and 1st level only, a character is allowed to overspend her feat points by selecting one or more feats with a cost of 11 or more feat points. The extra cost of these feats is carried over until the next time she gains feat points of the appropriate type. She can go into "feat point debt" up to 3 points. Feat point debt is tracked separately by type of feat point (typeless, fighter, wizard, etc.) .The feat point debt system allows characters using it to maintain parity with characters who don't (characters using the standard rules could sometimes end up with several strong feats at 1st level, penalizing the feat-point character) .

Example: Vidda, a halflingrog1, has 10 feat points. She selects Two-Weapon Fighting (11 points) and goes into feat point debt by for point. The next time she gains typeless feat points (3rd level) she only gains 9instead of 10 because of the 1-point debt. She gains the normal 10 feat points at levels 6, 9, and so on.
Example:Tegdar, a human ftr1, has 20 typeless feat points (10 from being1st-level, 10 from being human) and 10 fighter feat points. He chooses Point Blank Shot (9 points) and Two-Weapon Fighting with his typless feat points, which brings his typeless feat points to 0 (if there were a 12-point feat he qualified for, he could have selected that instead of Two-Weapon fighting, which would have put him in debt for 1feat point) . He purchases Rapid Shot (11 points) with his fighter feat points, which puts him in debt for one fighter feat point. At 2ndlevel, he gains 9 fighter feat points instead of 10 because of the1-point debt. He gains the normal 10 fighter feat points at fighter level 4, 6, and so on. His typeless feat points (at level 3, 6, and soon) are unaffected (though if he had chosen a 12-point feat instead of Two-Weapon Fighting he would have paid that typeless feat point debt at level 3 when he gained more feat points) .


Virtual Feats
Virtual feats, such as those conditional feats granted by the monk and ranger classes, do not grant feat points, cost feat points, or cause or negate feat point debt.

Feat Name	Feat Cost	Notes
Acrobatic	4
Agile	4
Alertness	4
Animal Affinity	4
Armor Proficiency (Heavy)	5
Armor Proficiency (Light)	5
Armor Proficiency (Medium)	5
Athletic	4
Augment Summoning	10
Blind-Fight	6
Brew Potion	4
Cleave	7
Combat Casting	4
Combat Expertise	6
Combat Reflexes	8
Craft Magic Arms and Armor	6
Craft Rod	6
Craft Staff	6
Craft Wand	6
Craft Wondrous Item	8
Deceitful	4
Deflect Arrows	7
Deft Hands	4
Diehard	3	Near-worthless except as a requirement
Diligent	4
Dodge	5
Empower Spell	7
Endurance	3
Enlarge Spell	7
Eschew Materials	4
Exotic Weapon Proficiency	5
Extend Spell	7
Extra Turning	8
Far Shot	5
Forge Ring	6
Great Cleave	4	Cleave is expensive, but the upgrade should be cheap
Great Fortitude	7
Greater Spell Focus	6	Raised from 5
Greater Spell Penetration	5
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting	3
Greater Weapon Focus	6
Greater Weapon Specialization	4
Heighten Spell	6
Improved Bull Rush	5	Bull Rushing is usually weaker than other maneuvers
Improved Counterspell	7
Improved Critical	8
Improved Disarm	6	Disarming is usually weaker than other maneuvers
Improved Feint	8
Improved Grapple	8
Improved Initiative	8
Improved Overrun	6
Improved Precise Shot	8
Improved Shield Bash	8
Improved Sunder	6
Improved Trip	10	Tripping is widely considered excellent
Improved Turning	6	Lowered from 7
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting	4
Improved Unarmed Strike	4
Investigator	4
Iron Will	7
Leadership	15	A truly game-breaking feat if used right
Lightning Reflexes	7
Magical Aptitude	4
Manyshot	7
Martial Weapon Proficiency	4
Maximize Spell	7
Mobility	4
Mounted Archery	5
Mounted Combat	6
Natural Spell	10
Negotiator	4
Nimble Fingers	4
Persuasive	4
Point Blank Shot	6
Power Attack	10
Precise Shot	7
Quick Draw	5	Lowered from 6
Quicken Spell	10	Possibly the best core Metamagic feat
Rapid Reload	6
Rapid Shot	8	Originally listed as 5, I'll blame typo here
Ride-By Attack	8
Run	4
Scribe Scroll	6
Self-Sufficient	4
Shield Proficiency	5
Shot On The Run	8
Silent Spell	7
Simple Weapon Proficiency	3
Skill Focus	5
Snatch Arrows	4
Spell Focus	7	Raised from 5
Spell Mastery	6
Spell Penetration	8
Spirited Charge	8
Spring Attack	9	With cheaper Dodge/Mobility, this feat becomes excellent
Stealthy	4
Still Spell	7
Stunning Fist	8
Toughness	3
Tower Shield Proficiency	6
Track	5
Trample	6
Two-Weapon Defense	4
Two-Weapon Fighting	7	With the later feats in the chain cheapened, TWF improves
Weapon Finesse	8
Weapon Focus	7
Weapon Specialization	5
Whirlwind Attack	9
Widen Spell	6

[Aeryr]

As I mentioned in another post even if this is interesting I feel that it might end failing due to feats being valuable depending on the rest of the character options and there being to many feats to really consider all the interactions.

For example a 1st level half elf (because they are so OP) warlock can get a really good use of skill focus [bluff] and deceitful
Could have a charisma of 18 (not even going for aging) mod =+4
Bluff ranks +4
Skill focus (bluff) +3
Deceitful +2
Beguiling influence +6
Racial +2
Master work tools +2

That's a 23 mod and supposing that you roll a 1 on the check it goes up to a bluff check of 24. The bluff penalty to "almost too incredible to consider." is -20 (drops the check to 4) so unless the opposition has ranks in sense motive and a decent wisdom its going to outright believe your bluff in a roll of 1.

If flaws and traits are on (or just be human) you can raise the bluff check higher be it via silvertongue mask (shape soulmeld) or nymph kiss or even using traits to increase it.

If you don't consider age penalties cheesy well that adds some more too.

Does that make skill focus a strong feat? For that level 1 example, sure, it is, for anyone else? No.

Edit: Actually checking my numbers the half elf still has 1 feat point left so he can grab any feat that he wants (he will contract a debt, but who cares) let's say nymph kiss for another +2. Now he has a bluff check of 26 (rolling a 1) and the opposition has to have 4 skill ranks in sense motive and 14 wisdom to be able to not believe the most outrageous lie.

[sonofzeal]

Originally Posted by Aeryr

As I mentioned in another post even if this is interesting I feel that it might end failing due to feats being valuable depending on the rest of the character options and there being to many feats to really consider all the interactions.

For example a 1st level half elf (because they are so OP) warlock can get a really good use of skill focus [bluff] and deceitful
Could have a charisma of 18 (not even going for aging) mod =+4
Bluff ranks +4
Skill focus (bluff) +3
Deceitful +2
Beguiling influence +6
Racial +2
Master work tools +2

That's a 23 mod and supposing that you roll a 1 on the check it goes up to a bluff check of 24. The bluff penalty to "almost too incredible to consider." is -20 (drops the check to 4) so unless the opposition has ranks in sense motive and a decent wisdom its going to outright believe your bluff in a roll of 1.

If flaws and traits are on (or just be human) you can raise the bluff check higher be it via silvertongue mask (shape soulmeld) or nymph kiss or even using traits to increase it.

If you don't consider age penalties cheesy well that adds some more too.

Does that make skill focus a strong feat? For that level 1 example, sure, it is, for anyone else? No.

Edit: Actually checking my numbers the half elf still has 1 feat point left so he can grab any feat that he wants (he will contract a debt, but who cares) let's say nymph kiss for another +2. Now he has a bluff check of 26 (rolling a 1) and the opposition has to have 4 skill ranks in sense motive and 14 wisdom to be able to not believe the most outrageous lie.

While it should be immediately obvious that the same feat can have radically different values for different characters, I don't think we need to consider every niche use. It's entirely acceptable if a particular specialized character finds certain feats especially good deals for them. That's going to be the case with any system. Pretty much every RPG ever will have that happen. The point is just to provide a reasonable baseline.

In general, I try to assume the character taking the feat has a valid reason for wanting it. This is why Skill Focus is a 5 instead of, say, a 3. For an average Rogue, "Skill Focus: Search" isn't worth even 5 points. But for someone who's getting good mileage out of a particular skill, it's got at least moderate value. But it already takes effort getting to the point where +3 to a skill is something you care about, and most of the time it's not really going to be a gamechanger, so it's not worth the big points even then.

Make sense?

[Aeryr]

It does make sense, it made sense since the beginning

How does this interact with characters that start at level higher than 1?

For example can a fighter human starting at level 6 use his 70 feat points at level 6? That would make him meet more prerequisites of said feats.

Additionally what do you really intend to do with this system, I mean, each time the character get feats they get 10 feat points, but most of the feats that you propose cost less than 10 feat points, the fighter already has a lot of feats (he can have more this way, he probably doesn't see a lot of benefit) but spellcasters can get metamagic for less than a feat this way. It seems that the spellcasters get more goodies out of this than the mundane.

[sonofzeal]

Originally Posted by Aeryr

It does make sense, it made sense since the beginning

How does this interact with characters that start at level higher than 1?

For example can a fighter human starting at level 6 use his 70 feat points at level 6? That would make him meet more prerequisites of said feats.

Additionally what do you really intend to do with this system, I mean, each time the character get feats they get 10 feat points, but most of the feats that you propose cost less than 10 feat points, the fighter already has a lot of feats (he can have more this way, he probably doesn't see a lot of benefit) but spellcasters can get metamagic for less than a feat this way. It seems that the spellcasters get more goodies out of this than the mundane.

After I get the pricings worked out, I might try modifying the system. Gaining three "Feat Points" a level seems like a nicer way to go. That's a little less than SKR gave, but my feats are also cheaper on average, and three FP per level still likely balances out to more total FP than you'd have otherwise. The only question is how many additional FP to start with, and whether to do anything about classes that offer bonus feats at non-regular intervals, like Monk and Rogue.

I don't think mages benefit inordinately. Fighters do suffer, because feats in general become a bit cheaper and more accessible for everyone, but that doesn't affect other martial classes. And it's my experience that martial classes are traditionally a whole lot more feat-starved than spellcasters. A Wizard can do just fine with hardly any feats, but a Rogue really has to battle to get it all in. Increasing the availability of feats in general favours non-casters, in my opinion.

[Airanath]

This sounds really interesting.
But some questions came up for me:
1) Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot, what is the reasoning for RR being 1 point more expensive? It doesn't really shine that much, as the kinds of crossbow you can use for free action fighting are still gonna be limited, heavies requiring a DM houserule that you can take it twice, or enchantments that pretty much make the feat moot if I am not mistaken (There was a reloading enchant somewhere I believe). With that in mind, wouldn't Rapid Shot be superior? Even more so, because in a crossbow build were you can freely reload, you can also use Rapid Shot.
2) Do you plan to make expansions to the list for other feats available in the homunguous list of feats we have available to select from?

[sonofzeal]

Originally Posted by Airanath

This sounds really interesting.
But some questions came up for me:
1) Rapid Reload and Rapid Shot, what is the reasoning for RR being 1 point more expensive? It doesn't really shine that much, as the kinds of crossbow you can use for free action fighting are still gonna be limited, heavies requiring a DM houserule that you can take it twice, or enchantments that pretty much make the feat moot if I am not mistaken (There was a reloading enchant somewhere I believe). With that in mind, wouldn't Rapid Shot be superior? Even more so, because in a crossbow build were you can freely reload, you can also use Rapid Shot.
2) Do you plan to make expansions to the list for other feats available in the homunguous list of feats we have available to select from?

1) Fixed. Don't know how that happened.

2) Probably not every feat from every book; I believe there's at least 3000! But if other people help contribute, I'll certainly add it in.

[Airanath]

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

1) Fixed. Don't know how that happened.

2) Probably not every feat from every book; I believe there's at least 3000! But if other people help contribute, I'll certainly add it in.

1) Hehe was just wondering, typos and lack of sleepy, done my fair share of mistakes too.

2) I am still trying to break down the pricings properly, but from what I see I like the idea, I would help if I can get the hang of how it works. The hard part of this system is, you really can't skip feats if you are going to work on it, as its already taking into account not all feats are equal

[sonofzeal]

Originally Posted by Airanath

I am still trying to break down the pricings properly, but from what I see I like the idea, I would help if I can get the hang of how it works.

You can follow the link for SKR's ideas on pricing. Strangely enough, the ideas themselves are mostly good, it's just how he applies them that's borked. Apply a bit of common sense and they should serve you well. Mostly, though, I just eyeballed:

• 10 FP: this feat is excellent, a high priority for any relevant characters
• 8 FP: this feat opens up some new tactical possibilities or expands existing ones significantly
• 6 FP: this feat is decent, but the sort of thing you'd otherwise pass over for lack of feat slots
• 4 FP: this feat is weak, and generally not worth thinking about except for highly specialized builds

[Airanath]

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

You can follow the link for SKR's ideas on pricing. Strangely enough, the ideas themselves are mostly good, it's just how he applies them that's borked. Apply a bit of common sense and they should serve you well. Mostly, though, I just eyeballed:

• 10 FP: this feat is excellent, a high priority for any relevant characters
• 8 FP: this feat opens up some new tactical possibilities or expands existing ones significantly
• 6 FP: this feat is decent, but the sort of thing you'd otherwise pass over for lack of feat slots
• 4 FP: this feat is weak, and generally not worth thinking about except for highly specialized builds

Figured that much, but there are the discounts and stuff like that, that are more common sense. Might pick up either CA or CAdv and play a bit with this. As soon as I learn to make a table!

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

Mostly, though, I just eyeballed:

• 10 FP: this feat is excellent, a high priority for any relevant characters
• 8 FP: this feat opens up some new tactical possibilities or expands existing ones significantly
• 6 FP: this feat is decent, but the sort of thing you'd otherwise pass over for lack of feat slots
• 4 FP: this feat is weak, and generally not worth thinking about except for highly specialized builds

I think you've mostly followed this a bit too slavishly, without allowance for extra benefits or limitations. For instance, Manyshot does open up some additional possibilities, but it also limits precision damage. So an 8 point score is too high. On the other hand, in some cases you've ignored those considerations. As an example, Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't meet the qualification for its high rank. Anyone (even a level 1 Commoner) wielding a second weapon can make an additional attack as part of a full attack; the feat only reduces the associated penalties without creating any new possibilities.

[sonofzeal]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

I think you've mostly followed this a bit too slavishly, without allowance for extra benefits or limitations. For instance, Manyshot does open up some additional possibilities, but it also limits precision damage. So an 8 point score is too high. On the other hand, in some cases you've ignored those considerations. As an example, Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't meet the qualification for its high rank. Anyone (even a level 1 Commoner) wielding a second weapon can make an additional attack as part of a full attack; the feat only reduces the associated penalties without creating any new possibilities.

I agree about Manyshot, and I'll reduce it a little. It's still good though, so I think I'll leave it at a 7 for now unless someone else complains.

As for TWF, I think most characters would be hard-pressed to use two weapons sans feat and not end up in "flurry of misses" territory. It's also a significant stepping stone for those who do happen to have good sources of precision damage per-hit. And, as the note says, the Improved/Greater ones are now dirt cheap, making TWF as a style noticeably better. I'll keep it where it is now, unless more chime in supporting a lower grade for it.

[SSGoW]

I have to say I love the idea of this system and if it ever get's finished I would love to see this turned into a pdf.

I'm not sure how much help I'll be but...

In regard to Two Weapon Fighting line.. The only classes that really benefit from using two weapons is classes with extra damage dice such as Rogues. I could see the point of lowering the cost since most people who take it won't gain the full benefit from the feat. Sure a fighter or even a wizard (yes I've seen this happen) may take the feat but their damage output won't be high enough to really justify taking the feat at to high a cost. Although I'm not complaining on where it's at but I could see it being lowered since really in core only one class gets the full benefit from it (ranger get's it for free but no extra damage dice :( ... beyond favored enemy which is highly highly situational)

[sonofzeal]

Originally Posted by SSGoW

I have to say I love the idea of this system and if it ever get's finished I would love to see this turned into a pdf.

I'm not sure how much help I'll be but...

In regard to Two Weapon Fighting line.. The only classes that really benefit from using two weapons is classes with extra damage dice such as Rogues. I could see the point of lowering the cost since most people who take it won't gain the full benefit from the feat. Sure a fighter or even a wizard (yes I've seen this happen) may take the feat but their damage output won't be high enough to really justify taking the feat at to high a cost. Although I'm not complaining on where it's at but I could see it being lowered since really in core only one class gets the full benefit from it (ranger get's it for free but no extra damage dice :( ... beyond favored enemy which is highly highly situational)

Yeah, it's a tough call.

On the one hand, we really shouldn't give a feat a high score just because it's useful in certain ultra-specialized builds. "Skill Focus" is brilliant for Jumplomancers, but 90% of the time it's filler and weak filler at that.

On the other hand, I think we have to work from the assumption that the people taking feats are the people who are making use of them. "Improved Trip" is a poor feat if you don't have the Str to back it up, but we have to assume that people who take it are going to be able to use it effectively.



I think TWF falls into the latter category. "Rogue" is hardly a specialized build, and there are other classes and builds that benefit from it. I think the category of characters that benefit significantly from it is large enough to be taken as the baseline for that feat. Others may certainly choose to pick it up even if it's not as effective for them, nobody's stopping them, but I think the pricing should assume that it's being put to profitable use.

[Seerow]

I'd recommend taking a few of the 100% necessary must have feats (like power attack) and just baking them into the baseline. Forcing characters to spend 10 points on power attack is mean given how every character who ever wants to pick up a melee weapon needs it.


I'd also recommend a lower low end. Like Endurance, Run, and skill bonus feats are such bull**** feats, it should be 1-2 points, not even 4. Yes this means you can pick up endurance, and 4-9 other feats just like it for the price of one feat. This is actually fair, because nobody would take those feats even at 4 points.


One other thing I'd suggest is rather than giving 10 points with every feat, just give a flat +5 feat points every level, with 10 at level 1. It makes things more granular and lets people feel like they're getting something each level, while still keeping the same number of total points gained. (You could do the same thing with the Fighter, having the Fighter gain +5 feat points every level, so you don't get those dead levels).

On the other hand, I would totally get rid of Wizard Bonus feats altogether. ESPECIALLY since the list posted has pretty much all Crafting and Metamagic feats down to 6-8 points. I mean really, not even Quicken Spell is worth a full feat? That seems kind of messed up.

Also I disagree with spring attack being worth 10 points, even with Dodge+Mobility being down to 10 points. It really isn't a great feat unless you're planning on rewriting it.

[sonofzeal]

Originally Posted by Seerow

I'd recommend taking a few of the 100% necessary must have feats (like power attack) and just baking them into the baseline. Forcing characters to spend 10 points on power attack is mean given how every character who ever wants to pick up a melee weapon needs it.


I'd also recommend a lower low end. Like Endurance, Run, and skill bonus feats are such bull**** feats, it should be 1-2 points, not even 4. Yes this means you can pick up endurance, and 4-9 other feats just like it for the price of one feat. This is actually fair, because nobody would take those feats even at 4 points.


One other thing I'd suggest is rather than giving 10 points with every feat, just give a flat +5 feat points every level, with 10 at level 1. It makes things more granular and lets people feel like they're getting something each level, while still keeping the same number of total points gained. (You could do the same thing with the Fighter, having the Fighter gain +5 feat points every level, so you don't get those dead levels).

On the other hand, I would totally get rid of Wizard Bonus feats altogether. ESPECIALLY since the list posted has pretty much all Crafting and Metamagic feats down to 6-8 points. I mean really, not even Quicken Spell is worth a full feat? That seems kind of messed up.

Also I disagree with spring attack being worth 10 points, even with Dodge+Mobility being down to 10 points. It really isn't a great feat unless you're planning on rewriting it.

Metamagic (including Quicken) is relatively cheap because it carries its own cost. Most reducers are feats themselves and you can bet the price tag on those will be high, and without reducers most metamagic isn't that great.

On hindsight though, Power Attack also carries its own cost, and should be devalued accordingly. What do you recommend? And, what do you recommend for Spring Attack?



(And I had a very similar idea to yours with adding granularity. I'm not sure why SKR didn't. Right now I'm just trying to work out the pricing based on his system; anything more would have to be over in Homebrew, I guess.)

[Airanath]

Originally Posted by sonofzeal

Metamagic (including Quicken) is relatively cheap because it carries its own cost. Most reducers are feats themselves and you can bet the price tag on those will be high, and without reducers most metamagic isn't that great.

On hindsight though, Power Attack also carries its own cost, and should be devalued accordingly. What do you recommend? And, what do you recommend for Spring Attack?



(And I had a very similar idea to yours with adding granularity. I'm not sure why SKR didn't. Right now I'm just trying to work out the pricing based on his system; anything more would have to be over in Homebrew, I guess.)

I would keep power attack at 10 tought. It opens up Shock Trooper and Leap Attack, grab Battle Jump and Blink Shirt + Pounce. You can now full attack 2x every round... for a retarded ammount of damage. Sure I am taking a built into consideration, but Power Attack opens up all of those options. As such, it does fit the 10 pricing. Some of the others due to reqs are just 8s or 6s. (Shape Soul Meld being a definite 10)

Metamagic isn't so good for non sorcerers in core. And even them see limited use for it, exactly because of its cost, and it being steep. Metamagic only gets to 8+ power when you stack loads of it due to metamagic enhacers. Which are specialized builds, making the most of the small tools.

[cfalcon]

I am surprised that he makes no distinction between ranged and melee attacks, believing them equivalent. He prices Rapid Shot and Two Weapon Fighting the same, whereas I would argue that Rapid Shot is substantially superior. Hell, even things like Weapon Specialization: Longbow are better than the melee equivalents, because melee weapons have higher damage normally, and adding 2 to a small number is better than adding them to a high number.


Beyond that, I get a lot of what he is saying. Looking at that chart, you can read a lot about his DMing style.

First, I get the impression that he likes low and mid level games a bit more- there's not much level variation taken into account. I mean, he has Quicken Spell at 5, one of the lower numbers (tied with Run), and that feat definitely shines later in the game.

Second, many of his enemies play their Int scores. Like, a bunch of orcs will mob whomever is in front, instead of being controlled like a bunch of game pieces. You can tell this is the case because he seems to assume that melee attacks and full attacks will happen. Once the opponents (and the players) start gaming full attacks and kiting, the game becomes much longer to resolve, and archers and casters gain an increase in power. But if the orcs decide to full attack the fighter because that's THEIR best damage, regardless of the fact that allowing the fighter a full attack increases his damage by a zillion...

Third, his baselines are ones that we probably disagree with, based I suspect on time spent. While I think the +2 save feats have mostly stood the test of time, I think they are overpriced. In fact, I suspect 2.5 would be about right given the value of a 3.5 feat, and I think we don't see many of those feats chosen until Pathfinder, which both makes feats more plentiful and doesn't have really over budget feats like some of the later 3.5 things did. But Toughness as a baseline? I've been running the Pathfinder Toughness (ceil[Level,3]) since before Pathfinder, and even then it's not a popular choice even among a tough character who is assured he'll "be able to tank". As an NPC feat it's acceptable of course, but I think I've seen Toughness taken only a couple more times than Run.

Fourth, you can tell that he doesn't have anything like Ye Olde Magic Item Shoppe, as he definitely puts high values on item creation.

So... overall, I don't think we can "fix" it. I think his system would work PERFECTLY in his game, where your two weapon guy will routinely get a full attack. Feats are what the DM makes them. I think you should ADJUST them for the type of games you run- these wouldn't be correct for my games either, that's for sure!




In my games, I basically:

1)- Power Attack lets you Cleave, and counts as both.
2)- Dodge also gives you Mobility. Dodge is always active (+1 to AC, no declare)
3)- Enlarge Spells gives you the ability to use both Enlarge Spell and Widen Spell, as if you had chosen both feats.
4)- I have a "Fortunate" feat that is +1 to all saves.
5)- Improved Two Weapon Fighting- Now also grants the benefits of Greater and Perfect, such that when your BAB is +11 you gain the third off hand attack, and +16 you gain the fourth offhand attack. These attacks are worth so very little that spending a feat on a -15 attack is insulting, and it's lame to not have symmetry.
6)- Potent Spells gives you the ability to use both Heighten and Extend Spell, as if you had chosen both feats.
7)- Improved Precise Shot- Now grants the benefit of Point Blank Shot to all ranges (this simplifies the math late game, as this plus PBS just make a +1 to hit, and the +1 is no longer interesting or fun to optimize around past about 6th level)
8)- Point Blank Shot- Now also grants the benefits of Precise Shot.
9)- Spirited Charge- Now also grants the benefit of Ride-by-Attack
10)- Whirlwind Attack- Prereqs changed to BAB +4, Dex 13, Dodge, Spring Attack (by the time a fighter qualifies for this in my game, it is VERY rare that he faces hordes of enemies, and in general it is often so superior to focus a full attack on one target that I would prefer the requirements on this feat be lower- even with these requirements it is not popular or that powerful in my games).
11)- Mounted Combat- Now also grants the benefits of Mounted Archery
12)- Subtle Spells- Grants the ability to use Silent Spell and Still Spell, as if you had taken those feats.

Now, reading through that list, you can probably get a pretty good idea about how my combats go. First of all, you get the impression that I want ranged attacks to be a bit easier to qualify for, not a specialist-only thing. You see that I don't value the multi-target attack things much, so I made them much cheaper, so you can guess that when you are in range of multiple targets, more often that not one of them at least will be very powerful, and it will be a choice whether to use Whirlwind Attack, or risk attacking a plebian to cleave into a powerful enemy. You'll also note that I expect casters to spend their feats somewhere besides rarely taken metamagic feats- with a few feats, casters gain access to the non-damage and non-action-economy ones. The only one that I consider even vaguely high-budget is Subtle Spells, because silent and still spells can be used to get around somewhat dire conditions at times. The others, such as Heighten and Extend, or Widen and Enlarge, are in no real way overpowered in my games (and probably not many games will be broken by a character who can make their fireball big AND long range having only spent one feat).



Anyway. This is a good thread, and I hope my post is useful.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by SSGoW

In regard to Two Weapon Fighting line. The only classes that really benefit from using two weapons is classes with extra damage dice such as Rogues. I could see the point of lowering the cost since most people who take it won't gain the full benefit from the feat.

As an afficionado of Rogues, I have to disagree with you: Two-Weapon Fighting is a very bad choice for the class.

• Feats are precious to Rogues. Given how few feats a Rogue can get there are always going to be better choices than TWF, so it's not worth considering with the standard cost of 1 feat. With the FPS cost of 8 points that prices TWF higher than most other feats, so it's still not worth considering. (Since the feat doesn't create any new possibilities and only provides a benefit in a limited context ─ i.e., when using a full attack action ─ it's hardly worth 8 points, but that's another consideration.)
• At best TWF will lead to -2 penalties to all attacks, or -4 if using a non-light off hand weapon. But Rogues start with only 3/4 BAB. Additional attacks are useless if they're just additional misses. Remember the First Rule of Sneak Attack: If you don't hit, your sneak attack damage is zero.
  
• As noted, TWF can only be used with a full attack. Full attacks necessarily allow full enemy counterattacks. With class abilities severely penalized when wearing anything more than light armor and only d6 hit dice, Rogues are too squishy to make this a viable tactic.

Superior combat feat choices include Snap Kick (a bonus unarmed attack with any sort of melee attack, including not only full attacks but also standard action attacks, attacks of opportunity, and bonus attacks such as from Improved Trip), Knowledge Devotion (bonuses to both attack and damage based on Knowledge skill checks), and Craven (bonus to sneak attack damage scaling with character level). Pretty much regardless of the cost, Two-Weapon Fighting is a bad choice for Rogues.

[Airanath]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

-snip-.

This is Slice McDicey, a rogue 11/Swordsage 1/rogue 8.
The Basics:

Spoiler

Bab: 15 (Full attack 15/10/5)
Sneak Attack: 10d6(12d6 when on Assassin Stance, which should be always)
Lets assume the following ability scores:
STR:14 Dex:16 (+4 from levels) CON:14 INT:10 WIS:10 CHA:10
Slice is a Human, meaning he has no ability adjustment, gains extra skill points and an extra feat.
Human Bonus: Two Weapon Fighting
First Level: Mage Slayer
3rd Level: Weapon Finesse
6th Level: Blind Fighting (In place of Special Ability)
9th Level: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10th Level: Crippling Strike
12th Level:Shadow Blade Technique
13th: Craven (In place of rogue special ability)
15th: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16th: Staggering Strike (In place of rogue special ability)
18th: Pierce Magical Concealment
19th: Dark Stalker (In place of rogue special)

Stances Known: Assassin Stance (Swordsage level was delayed to get this stance due to non initiator's class counting as half initiator levels)
Manuevers Known:
Cloak of Deception (Boost)
Sudden Leap (Boost)
Wolf Fang Strike (Strike)
Shadow Jaunt
Any other 2 you can learn

Skills (Total of 207 skill points to use):
Balance: 5; Climb: 10; Disable Device: 23; Escape Artist: 23, Hide: 14; Move Silently: 14; Open Lock: 23; Search 23; Use Magic Device: 19; Spot: 23; Tumbe: 23; Spellcraft:2.
That is 187 Ranks used. He does most everything you expect a rogue to do, he is a bit distracted towards what people are saying, but nobody is perfect, right? You could spend the rest on knowledge skill and sleight of hand, if you want to pick pockets for fun.
He is also not maxed on some skills, that is because he found out the wonders of magic items, and became reliant on them to improve some of them, neglecting his training there.
Lets assume, for this excercise, you don't, and get some skill tricks instead:
8 Ranks Used: Acrobatic Backstep (If you tumble behind an oponent, you make him flat footed, fixed DC 25), Clarity of Vision (You can see invisible enemies for 1 round as a swift action), Easy Escape, Escape Attack (Bonus to escape grapples, and a free attack when you escape a grapple, where the foe is flat footed, must use a Light weapon(Daggers anyone?)).

Now, one does not become such a good Rogue without obtaining some wonderful loot, right? Lets check out some of the gear Slicey carries with him now.
Equipment and Weapons to Slice mostly everything:

Spoiler

He is allowed to spend 760k gold according to the WBL.
First and foremost: Collar of Continuous Umbral Metamorphosis (22k) - Hide in Plain Sight, Darkvision, minor Resistance to Cold, Superior Low Light Vision, a speed bonus and a racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently? And this thing was in the bargain bin because?
Armor: Mithral Breastplate + 5 (Slick, Shadow, Silent Moves, Called) - 76,350 gp. Not the best protection money can offer, but if you aren't wearing it, you can call it, and it makes you stealthier. Study your marks first to improve it with appropriate energy resistance.
Weapon: +1 Eager Transmuting Colision Daggers of Deadly Precision - 98,302 each (x2)
Manuals Granting +4 Dex - 110,000
Gloves of Dexterity +6 - 36,000
Feathered Wings graft (flight speed = 2x Land speed) -10,000
Wand of Divine Power - 21k; Each charge lasts for 7 rounds, 2 more than your typical combat.
Tiger Claw Bracers(Pouncing Charge) - Charge and full attack for 15,000. I love Magi-O-Mart bargain bins!
We still got some gold to spend, so:
Scabbard of Greater Magic Weapon (2): Once per day, when drawing your weapon from this, you can activate the effect of the spell Greater Magic Weapon(CL 20) upon it. - (20(CL)*3(Spell Level)*2000(Use Activated)/5 (1 use per day) *1.5 = 36k each, lets call it 48k instead, because 36k is dirty cheap, considering the spells will last 20h unless dispelled.
Scroll of Contingency and Greater Heroism (2x1650 gold +1500gold for the focus) = 4800
Boots of Speed - 12k
Dorje of Offensive Precognition At 17th Manifester level (+6 insight bonus to Attack)- 114,750
If I didn't mess up anywhere: Remaining gold 93,496. Go buy yourself a house or something.

Le Combat:

Spoiler

Now, this is what we have been waiting for, isn't it?
Stats after gearing:
STR:20 (14+6 Divine Power) Dex:30 (16 +4 from levels +4 Tome + 6 Manual) CON:14 INT:10 WIS:10 CHA:10
BAB: 20 (Divine Power)
Init: 13 (+10 Dex +1 Sword Sage +2 Eager Enchant)
Attack Bonus:
Either Dagger: 44(20+5 Enhacement Bonus + 10 Dex -2 TWF + 4Morale +1 Unnamed(Haste)+6 insight)/39/34/(29 MH Only)
Damage:
MH: 1d4+5(STR)+10Dex +5(Enhacement Bonus)+5 (Colision)+13d6 +20 (Craven) Sneak Attack
OH: 1d4+2(STR)+10Dex +5(Enhacement Bonus)+5 (Colision) +13d6 +20 (Craven) Sneak Attack

Now kind sir who loves rogues... I beg of you... Please make me a 1 weapon fighting rogue that can hit dragons as many times per round as mine, for the same ammount of damage.
Other than damage and ability to hit a chosen foe, you can play however you like, so long as you remain a rogue, with at most a level dip in other classes for some usefull ability. You can outfit him to the best WBL can offer. I will admit to using a custom item, the scabbard one, feel free to use them too. Only restriction: Avoid obscure bonuses (a stone that gives +x to competence, insight, morale, luck and etc all day), I used those, but all come from a core source that can be easily traced (and dispelled).
The challenge is on, show me how TWF is bad for a rogue.

As you did say, if you don't hit... damage is 0, but hitting is a function that you have to properly prepare and customize for. This guy can easily slash trought dragon scales... He can TANK the Tarrasque, given that its not immune to the staggered condition, he will take damage, but its not gonna be one shot by the big T. Since he has quite a few ways to make his opponent flat footed every round, I doubt sneak attacking will be an issue without outright immunity, and given how much money he was left with, buying wands of gravestrike, golemstrike and vinestrike is not an issue.

On topic: My somewhat optimized rogue above, shows why TWF first feat is an 8 I guess, its follow ups are only cheaper because they are feat taxes.
Finally, I'll try to list up the feats on Complete Adventurer tomorrow sonofzeal.

Edit: Oh yeah, the reason Staggering Strike is on the build is to make moot your point on counterfull attacks. Good luck pulling those of with either a standard or a move action. I'll concede this guy might suffer if he fights a caster. If he is seen, that is.

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by Aeryr

The bluff penalty to "almost too incredible to consider." is -20 (drops the check to 4) so unless the opposition has ranks in sense motive and a decent wisdom its going to outright believe your bluff in a roll of 1.

If the opponent has no Sense Motive ranks and 10 Wisdom, they will still disbelieve a Bluff check of 4 80% of the time.

Also, for Rogues missing with attacks - why not just finagle some touch attacks to hit with? A simple 1-level dip into Pyrokineticist gives you both the means of making easy hits, and the reach to avoid some enemy counterattacks.

[Airanath]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

If the opponent has no Sense Motive ranks and 10 Wisdom, they will still disbelieve a Bluff check of 4 80% of the time.

Also, for Rogues missing with attacks - why not just finagle some touch attacks to hit with? A simple 1-level dip into Pyrokineticist gives you both the means of making easy hits, and the reach to avoid some enemy counterattacks.

Because then your sneak attack is always fire damage, and you are damned to hell if you face a red wyrm. But hey, that is one way to work around missing. Also, pyrokneticist doesn't seems to be able to TWF.
Hitting stuff is not a rogue problem, everyone but the casters will need solid investment to go past creatures AC after a while, its expected you find ways to hit stuff. TWF needs a bit more of investment on this than using a two hander. But the guy using a two hander, unless abusing shock trooper, needs heavy investment on to-hit too, or else he can't power attack at all.
And if you can't hit your power attack, there is no damage, or so I hear anyway.
But indeed, resolving stuff as touch attacks is a nice way to do it, I just didn't want to make custom item of wraithstrike. That would be cheating =p

[Seerow]

Spoilered for off topic

Spoiler

Just computing average damage for the rogue posted for ease of comparison. I'm trusting the numbers provided are accurate, and not going through the build line by line. Though I am curious, why use daggers instead of short swords? Having d6s for weapon damage instead of d4s would make it easier to condense stuff, and been marginally more effective assuming everything else still works with it.

Going with an enemy that has an AC of 40, because that's a decent middle of the road level 20 AC.


Attack routine with haste is: +44/+44/+44/+39/+39/+34/+34/+29

1d4+13d6+45 (average: 93, crit: 143.5) on 5 attacks, and 1d4+13d6+43 (average: 91, crit: 139.5) on 3 attacks.


Main Hand

Spoiler

Attack 1, 2, and 3:
10%: Crit Threat, 95% confirm (143.5), 5% not (93), average: 140.975
85%: Hit. Average: 93
5%: Miss. Average: 0

Average Damage per Attack: 93.1475

Attack 4:
10% Crit Threat, 75% confirm, 25% not, Average: 130.875
65% Hit. Average: 93
25% Miss. Average: 0

Average Damage per Attack: 73.538

Attack 5:
10% Crit Threat, 50% confirm, 50% not, Average: 118.25
40% Hit. Average: 93
50% Miss. Average: 0

Average Damage Per Attack: 49.025

Total Mainhand average damage: 402.0055



Offhand:

Spoiler

Attack 1:
10%: Crit Threat, 95% confirm (139.5), 5% not (91), average: 137.075
85%: Hit. Average: 91
5%: Miss. Average: 0

Average damage per attack: 91.0575

Attack 2:
10%: Crit Threat, 75% confirm, 25% not, average: 127.375
65%: Hit. Average: 91
25%: Miss. Average: 0

Average damage per attack: 71.8875

Attack 3:
10%: Crit Threat, 50% confirm, 50% not, average: 115.25
40%: Hit. Average: 91
50%: Miss. Average: 0

Average damage per attack: 47.925

Total offhand damage: 210.87


Total damage with two weapon fighting: 612.8755



Now as a point of reference, two weapon fighting has a -2 penalty to hit, so without it, the last two main hand attacks would be altered as follows:

Spoiler

Attack 4:
10% Crit Threat, 85% confirm, 15% not, Average: 134.225
75% Hit. Average: 93
15% Miss. Average: 0

Average Damage per Attack: 83.1725 (+9.6345)

Attack 5:
10% Crit Threat, 60% confirm, 40% not, Average: 122.1
50% Hit. Average: 93
40% Miss. Average: 0

Average Damage Per Attack: 58.71 (+9.685)

Total Damage gained from losing the -2 penalty: 19.3145.


This means that for two weapon fighting to not be viable, you need to find 3 other feats that combine to adding 191.5555 damage to the rogue's full attack.

Seems like a pretty tough sell to me.

[deuxhero]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Pretty much regardless of the cost, Two-Weapon Fighting is a bad choice for Rogues.

But in a Core-only game?

[Airanath]

Originally Posted by Seerow

-question in spoilers-

No particular reason to use daggers, its just the first shadow hand weapon that came to mind actually.
Edit: Also, nice catch on the hast extra attack, I don't usually melee, so I tend to forget it =X

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by deuxhero

But in a Core-only game?

In a core-only game? I'd play a Druid. Rogue is an attractive class because of the flexibility the class offers. But the core Rogue has many flaws, and the flexibility ─ to fix those problems, and to open up new options ─ lies in many supplements.

[Dumbledore lives]

I think spell focus might be undervalued, because while not a definite pick if I'm at all focusing on one school it can be pretty useful. With this a Gnome illusionist could get even more ridiculous DCs, getting effectively +2 for what used to be +1. I'd say they should both be around +7, but I'm not expert on these kinds of things.

[sonofzeal]

Originally Posted by Dumbledore lives

I think spell focus might be undervalued, because while not a definite pick if I'm at all focusing on one school it can be pretty useful. With this a Gnome illusionist could get even more ridiculous DCs, getting effectively +2 for what used to be +1. I'd say they should both be around +7, but I'm not expert on these kinds of things.

Accepted. I'll raise Spell Focus to 7.

[Airanath]

And even if you are focusing on a single school, there are usually better feats. +1 to the DC is nice, but you can achieve that in other ways. Spell Focus is mostly a requisite for some Prestige Classes. It might be a bit low at 5, but I think 7 is too high, it lacks versatility, and is situational, more than, for instance, any of the metamagic feats (even without cost reducers).
I would say 8-10 for sure if it actually lowered metamagic costs for the foci school.
Also, if you are going to take it just for the DC increase, you are also going to take Greater Spell Focus, which will increase its price to proper levels for +2 d/c (That would certainly be a 10 as a pair). With that in mind, 6 for spell focus is what I would recomend, maybe 7, and lower Greater by one point in that case. Either way, it costs 11 points for the combo.

Edit: Also, the problem with DCs lies in how spellcasting DCs progress, they are a static number based on spell level. Look at psionics, where you can invest extra power points (use higher spell slots), to get the benefit of an increased dc. You can still use Psionic Endowment(and Greater) to raise the DCs more, but they usually progress pretty well with your levels. Spell focus isn't cheap/powerfull, Heighten Spell is the silly feat in there.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Airanath

This is Slice McDicey, a rogue 11/Swordsage 1/rogue 8.
First Level: Mage Slayer

Originally Posted by Mage Slayer

Prerequisite: Spellcraft 2 ranks, base attack bonus +3.

BAB +3 at 1st level?

Originally Posted by Airanath

12th Level:Shadow Blade Technique

Also not legal.

Originally Posted by Shadow Blade

Prerequisite: One Shadow Hand stance.

Step 7. Feats must come before step 9. Class Features in the Level Advancement sequence (see Player's Handbook on pages 58-59), so you can't satisfy the feat prerequisite.

Originally Posted by Airanath

Stances Known: Assassin Stance (Swordsage level was delayed to get this stance due to non initiator's class counting as half initiator levels)

Regardless of initiator level, you follow the rule for what stance you get at Swordsage 1:

Originally Posted by Tome of Battle, page 16

Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you.

Originally Posted by Airanath

First and foremost: Collar of Continuous Umbral Metamorphosis (22k) - Hide in Plain Sight, Darkvision, minor Resistance to Cold, Superior Low Light Vision, a speed bonus and a racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently? And this thing was in the bargain bin because?

That Dark Creature template's Hide in Plain Sight doesn't overcome the need for cover/concealment in order to use the Hide skill, and you only can guarantee cover/concealment for 1 round per combat with Cloak of Deception and only if you've got a swift action available ─ though that still won't work in daylight.

Originally Posted by Airanath

Scabbard of Greater Magic Weapon (2): Once per day, when drawing your weapon from this, you can activate the effect of the spell Greater Magic Weapon(CL 20) upon it.

Bogus nonexistent custom magic item.

Originally Posted by Airanath

Dorje of Offensive Precognition At 17th Manifester level (+6 insight bonus to Attack)- 114,750

Originally Posted by Expanded Psionics Handbook, page 168

The manifester level of a dorje cannot be more than five higher than the minimum manifester level to use the power it contains.

Originally Posted by Airanath

Now kind sir who loves rogues... I beg of you...

There are just so many rules violations that I'm not going to bother with any more of this.