Tengu in Pathfinder... What Precisely ARE They Good At?

[Tokuhara]

As an old-school D&D player, I loved the Kenku, a race of ravenfolk who were excellent at playing the shadow games, living in the lower rungs of society. Now, Pathfinder has really made a true return of the Kenku in the form of the Tengu, who's stats are in the aforementioned link.

Now personally, I am kind of at a loss for what they really are good at.

They get a free sword proficiency, but so does anyone with Martial Weapon Proficiency.

Medium Size isn't ideal for Casters, but a +2 Wisdom is nice for Clerics and Inquisitors. Combine with their natural +2 Dexterity and you have a decent Gunslinger, if a tad weird.

Linguistics makes them the Masters of Languages, but what use is being able to speak every language in PF if you have a sword in your gut?

This being said, there are Alternate Racial Features, which all in all are firmly in the Decent category. The Ironclaw specifically intrigues me. 2 claws and a bite attack? At level 1? That's 3 attacks at level 1 vs. the Fighter's one. Possible candidate for a Synthesist Summoner or Melee Monster Alchemist build?

So my question is:

The DM ok'd you to play Tengu. You are in a highly optimized party. You want to exemplify the race's natural gifts, and the intent is to stay in a middle ages setting (so no Gunslinger). What would you build and why?

Rules:

All info on PFSRD is allowed, but try to avoid 3rd party
1-20 breakdown
32 Point Buy
1 Trait at level 1
WBL one level higher than normal
Must be able to "play well with others" (ie: the party is Optimized, but the build cannot overshadow an optimized party)
"Rogue" Build (as in, no PF-ized Batman Wizard, CoDzilla, etc.). I like to avoid Mainstream Builds.
Skinning is allowed (changing appearance, fluff, etc. to make say an Alchemist's Mutagen into an anti-transformation concoction to where the "failure" is the Success)
Overall, the build should be fun for a player who has played PF for about a year.


Thanks everyone who posts with a build

[Crasical]

+Dex +Wis actually is perfect stats for a Gunslinger, though the -con kind of hurts.

The alternate tengu you linked are as far as I can tell all homebrew fancreations, not official PF variants. I don't know if this bothers you or not, but I thought I should mention it.

Heretic Inquisitor? Monk?

[CTrees]

Random thoughts (posting mobile)

They're okay rogues. That sword proficiency gives access to some exotics, like the finesseable elven curve blade.

Highly optimized party? Wouldn't play it. Low/mid-op? They're flavorful, different, and kinda fun.

32 point buy is HUGE in PF

Those alternate racial features? Thoroughly homebrew, best I can tell.

All in all, I'm really fond of the race, but I'm hard pressed to not just be human or something.

[Tokuhara]

Originally Posted by Crasical

+Dex +Wis actually is perfect stats for a Gunslinger, though the -con kind of hurts.

The alternate tengu you linked are as far as I can tell all homebrew fancreations, not official PF variants. I don't know if this bothers you or not, but I thought I should mention it.

Heretic Inquisitor? Monk?

Bummer. They made me feel good that there was love for the Tengu....

Heritic Inquisitor is pretty cool, just wish Inquisitor had SA.

Monk can work, but seems in a need for specialization, something that screams Tengu

Edit: Ctrees, my group plays with a 32 point buy. We often fight things 2-3 levels higher.

[Crasical]

Originally Posted by Tokuhara

Bummer. They made me feel good that there was love for the Tengu....

Heritic Inquisitor is pretty cool, just wish Inquisitor had SA.

Monk can work, but seems in a need for specialization, something that screams Tengu

Edit: Ctrees, my group plays with a 32 point buy. We often fight things 2-3 levels higher.

If you're -really- set on playing something with Sneak Attack, consider using your blanket sword weapon proficiency to pick up a Seven-Branch Sword to set up your sneak attacks with.

[Tokuhara]

Originally Posted by Crasical

If you're -really- set on playing something with Sneak Attack, consider using your blanket sword weapon proficiency to pick up a Seven-Branch Sword to set up your sneak attacks with.

The thing is that personally, I'm not a big fan of sneaky-classes, but again, I want the Tengu-est Build possible.

[Wisp_Paladin]

My girlfriend plays a tengu heretic inquisitor. She has 35 stealth at level 9. So she just stands still and kills everything that comes close to her and they have no idea that she is there. She has a magic item that gives her ricochet shot so she can hit 2 people with each arrow. In the last fight, she killed 2 level 7 inquisitors, 3 level 5 fighters, and 2 enlarged brawlers (between CR 6-9). And she wasn't touched once. It has gotten to the point where the oracle has had to yell at her to stop hiding so that enemies would fire on her instead of the rest of the group.

This build doesn't do much with swords but she roleplays that not having swords is the reason that she is an out-caste from her family and has thus joined a group of assassins (thus the heretic archtype). She really enjoys the build.

Edit: And I just remembered this, remember that sword prof. means with ALL SWORDS. That includes all exotic types as well. So it is in fact much better then most classes.

[Crasical]

Originally Posted by Tokuhara

The thing is that personally, I'm not a big fan of sneaky-classes, but again, I want the Tengu-est Build possible.

Adventurers: Tengus typically become adventurers who seek wealth and glory beyond the poverty of their roots. However, while many assume such lifestyles to escape the stereotypes of their race, just as many do so to revel in the role of the “shifty, sneaky tengu rogue.”

Emphasis mine. Don't feel constrained by racial stereotypes.

[Tokuhara]

Originally Posted by Wisp_Paladin

My girlfriend plays a tengu heretic inquisitor. She has 35 stealth at level 9. So she just stands still and kills everything that comes close to her and they have no idea that she is there. She has a magic item that gives her ricochet shot so she can hit 2 people with each arrow. In the last fight, she killed 2 level 7 inquisitors, 3 level 5 fighters, and 2 enlarged brawlers (between CR 6-9). And she wasn't touched once. It has gotten to the point where the oracle has had to yell at her to stop hiding so that enemies would fire on her instead of the rest of the group.

This build doesn't do much with swords but she roleplays that not having swords is the reason that she is an out-caste from her family and has thus joined a group of assassins (thus the heretic archtype). She really enjoys the build.

I almost thought Bladebound Dervish could be halfway decent. Yes, the Wisdom is useless, but it is creative.

And what about Oracle? Never played it myself, but it IS a full wisdom caster who casts spontaneously. Add in Words of Power, and maybe they could get some real power? Nevermind. CHA-based. So Sad...

[Wisp_Paladin]

Originally Posted by Tokuhara

I almost thought Bladebound Dervish could be halfway decent. Yes, the Wisdom is useless, but it is creative.

And what about Oracle? Never played it myself, but it IS a full wisdom caster who casts spontaneously. Add in Words of Power, and maybe they could get some real power?

Ummm...Wisdom...useless...+1 to perception, sense motive, will save (which is used to oppose the intelligent weapon if it tries to dominate you), in addition to all of the other skills it boosts. Wisdom is very useful.

But I will say that it would be nice to not worry about disarming against you. Even if the enemy succeeds you still have you peck attack. Which is kind of awesome to think of.

The oracle is an interesting concept. An oracle of war starting with a Falcata or elven curve blade. That can make an amazingly powerful damage build. Have only healing/buff spells and you are a great support/secondary damage character.

[Crasical]

To be honest, since the patron tengu god is one of thunder and lightning, I would like to see a Tengu Weapon Adept/Ki Mystic using a seven-branch sword symbolic of a thunderbolt (and later possibly enchanted with thunder/lightning themed abilities). Until level 11, the sword deals more damage than an unarmed strike, you still can flurry with it, and you wield it 2-handed so you're applying 1.5 str mod with each hit. If you're brave, you can take power attack on top of that for more damage on your many swings.

[Tokuhara]

Originally Posted by Crasical

To be honest, since the patron tengu god is one of thunder and lightning, I would like to see a Tengu Weapon Adept/Ki Mystic using a seven-branch sword symbolic of a thunderbolt (and later possibly enchanted with thunder/lightning themed abilities). Until level 11, the sword deals more damage than an unarmed strike, you still can flurry with it, and you wield it 2-handed so you're applying 1.5 str mod with each hit. If you're brave, you can take power attack on top of that for more damage on your many swings.

That's beautiful Crasical... Simply marvelous. I just wish there was a feat to make Scimitar a monk weapon...

[Almaseti]

Monk seems like a good choice, with those bonuses. Or a bow-using cleric.

[Tokuhara]

Originally Posted by Almaseti

Monk seems like a good choice, with those bonuses. Or a bow-using cleric.

I've seen them as a Go-To for Zen Archery Monks, but Ki Weapon Adept could be wonderful

[Crasical]

Originally Posted by Tokuhara

That's beautiful Crasical... Simply marvelous. I just wish there was a feat to make Scimitar a monk weapon...

Aaaand sigged.

[grarrrg]

Originally Posted by Tokuhara

That's beautiful Crasical... Simply marvelous. I just wish there was a feat to make Scimitar a monk weapon...

BAM!
Crusader's Flurry: "You can use your deity’s favored weapon as if it were a monk weapon."
Sarenrae has Scimitar as Favored, you'll need to be LG though, as she is a NG deity.
You WILL need a dip in Cleric for the Channel Energy pre-req though.
(you don't have to USE the Channel Energy, you just need to HAVE the Channel Energy)

[Crasical]

Though that is dropping three feats and a level into getting dex to damage, and worshipping a non-traditional tengu diety.

[grarrrg]

Originally Posted by Crasical

Though that is dropping three feats and a level into getting dex to damage, and worshipping a non-traditional tengu diety.

Hey, dude asks for "Scimitar as Monk weapon" I give him "Scimitar as Monk weapon".
He doesn't "need" to go the Dervish Dance route, he'd be OK with a STR focus (doesn't mesh quite as nicely on a Tengu, but...)
And there is always the option of Dawnflower Dervish Bard for 1 level to skip the pre-reqs and just get Dervish Dance as a bonus feat. Of course, then you're dipping 2 classes on top of Monk just to use a Scimitar while Flurry-ing, and they're all 3/4 Bab classes, so you'd better hope for Fractional rules, and...

[Tokuhara]

Jeeze... Ok. Scimmy is a bad move...

I personally a fan of WoP, but only on Spontaneous. Prepared loses out in WoP.

Any other ideas?

[Psyren]

Inquisitor is definitely where I'd go with stats like that. The sword proficiencies are actually relevant since you don't get MWP, and the judgements/teamwork feats/bite attack make you semi-decent at melee once you buff up.

[grarrrg]

Hmmm....
Tengu...
+2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Con...
Prof. w/swords...
Rogue-ish...
To shreds you say...
32 Point-Buy...

2 ideas, simpler one first.

Inquisitor, Infiltrator archetypes adds WIS to Bluff/Diplomacy.
Conversion Inquisition uses WIS for Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate.
Inquisitors also receive a 1/2-level bonus on Intimidate/Sense Motive.
AND they have 6+ Skills/level, can you say DIPLOMANCER?!??

They are also Wis based, 2/3 Spontaneous Divine casters

The Con penalty is easily made up for by the Inquisitors defensive Judgment options (AC/DR/Fast Healing). The Dex Bonus is just handy.

Tengu's Sword Prof. is a VERY nice addition, as Inquisitors only have Simple+Ranged Profs.

Level 20 Sample Stats: (32 Pathfinder Point Buy (!), total of +5 from Levels)
Str 18 (15 base, +3 level)
Dex 16 (13 base, +2 Race, +1 level)
Con 14 (15 base -2 Race, +1 level)
Int 12
Wis 20 (18 base, +2 Race)
Cha 7 (seriously, we've replaced almost all of the typical uses for it, DUMP!!!)
If desired, Wis can be dropped to 16 base and send the extra points to...well, anything except Cha.


Alternately:
Arcane Trickster
Entry will be Sorcerer with Empyreal Bloodline, so we can use Wis for casting.

The Sneak Attack Pre-Req will be met with 1 level of Rogue, and 1 level of Master Spy (can also use 1 level of Assassin or Inner Sea Pirate, but Master Spy seems the best fit flavor-wise).

Rogue 1/Sorcerer 6/Master Spy 1/Arcane Trickster 10/Sorcerer+2
We just barely make 9th level spells at level 20, and we have 7d6 Sneak Attack.

Level 20 Sample Stats: (32 Pathfinder Point Buy (!), total of +5 from Levels)
Str 8
Dex 18 (15 base, +2 Race, +1 level)
Con 14 (15 base -2 Race, +1 level)
Int 14 (13 base, +1 level)
Wis 20 (18 base, +2 Race, + level)
Cha 10
Higher Int/Neutral Cha is so we can still play the "skill monkey" role (Sorc only gets 2 Skills/level, and Arcane Trickster is only 4 per).
The Dex will help with any Ray/Ranged-Touch spells we cast, as well as helping our AC/Ref saves.

[Tengu_temp]

Just passing by to say I approve of this thread.

[Tokuhara]

Completely forgot Empyreal bloodline!

So could a Words of Power (trading power for "let's try this combination of components X, Y, and Z and see how this works") Dual-Wildblooded Empyreal/Umbral Sorcerer 20 could work Really well as a BFC/Debuff machine?