The better man? There is no such thing [3.5 base class]

[Theroc]

Sorry if my questions were pestersome, I just figured it'd be beneficial to ask these things to help flesh things out. Some additional questions my friend and I came up with:

The first might be more of a DM-question(and we did ask the DM), but how do you feel Powerful Build would affect things like Swallow Whole and Improved Grab? Or do you think it wouldn't?

Secondly, the spines mutation requires quills, and seems that it fires the spines. Do things that are mutated to apply to quills, apply to spines? For example, the ability damage from Undead mutations or the poison or elemental damage mutations?

[Draken]

Originally Posted by Theroc

Sorry if my questions were pestersome, I just figured it'd be beneficial to ask these things to help flesh things out. Some additional questions my friend and I came up with:

The first might be more of a DM-question(and we did ask the DM), but how do you feel Powerful Build would affect things like Swallow Whole and Improved Grab? Or do you think it wouldn't?

Secondly, the spines mutation requires quills, and seems that it fires the spines. Do things that are mutated to apply to quills, apply to spines? For example, the ability damage from Undead mutations or the poison or elemental damage mutations?

No, spines do not share additional mutations with Quills. When an extraordinaire natural weapon shares additional abilities, it is spelled out in the description.

[Malthruin]

I love this class. I wish I had it when I started designing a game for my brother and his friends lol. That being said, I don't want to rush you or anything, but when should we be looking for the next specialized schools of mutation (I really wanna see what you do with the rest).

[zetsu1919]

I have a question, if you say that oozes, vermin, and animal types are more like devolutions so you aren't including them, which i understand, why is it that plant is listed as one of the feats, cause I've never seen plants as a step up the latter, considering how one they've existed.

[Owrtho]

Originally Posted by zetsu1919

I have a question, if you say that oozes, vermin, and animal types are more like devolutions so you aren't including them, which i understand, why is it that plant is listed as one of the feats, cause I've never seen plants as a step up the latter, considering how one they've existed.

While it is true that plants have existed a long time, it is worth noting that like animals, they have developed to more complex forms. Particularly given that most D&D games take place in magical settings where you have plant monsters and the like that are just as developed as other types of creatures, with the main difference being they are made of vines, wood, or some similar plant material (also occasionally fungus or algae, which technically aren't plants, but are counted as such in D&D for classification purposes).

Owrtho

[Draken]

Originally Posted by zetsu1919

I have a question, if you say that oozes, vermin, and animal types are more like devolutions so you aren't including them, which i understand, why is it that plant is listed as one of the feats, cause I've never seen plants as a step up the latter, considering how one they've existed.

As Owrtho said, in D&D plant creatures have developed into a quite complex array of creatures.

Meanwhile, animals are limited to int 1-2, while vermin and oozes are mindless. Non-mindless vermin and oozes are mentioned in the MM as being generally aberrations instead.

[Theroc]

Question on the Energy Drain mutation. It says Charisma is the associated statistic, but doesn't mention anything about saving throws aside from only epic levels requiring a save to avoid permanency. Is that what the charisma dictates? Or does it offer a saving throw to avoid the negative level completely?

[Draken]

Originally Posted by Theroc

Question on the Energy Drain mutation. It says Charisma is the associated statistic, but doesn't mention anything about saving throws aside from only epic levels requiring a save to avoid permanency. Is that what the charisma dictates? Or does it offer a saving throw to avoid the negative level completely?

Charisma governs the saving throw against permanency that must be made at ML 24 and up. There is no saving throw to avoid receiving the negative level unless you have that one feat from... Heroes of Horror is it?

[Theroc]

I think it was from the Libre Mortis. I was just clarifying since I was unsure. Thanks. Btw, looking forward to the other types, particularly Outsider.

Might I suggest True Sight as a potential mutation? It's one of the only major shared traits that come to mind, or I'd suggest others.

[Gideon Falcon]

So, how come the Plant, Elemental, and Outsider Evolutions?

[Draken]

Originally Posted by Gideon Falcon

So, how come the Plant, Elemental, and Outsider Evolutions?

Plant hath been posted. Let us briefly mourn Bark, who did not make the cut.

...

Mourning over.

Also: New teratormophism added to the baseline list, Dire Body gives a couple simple benefits for those who just want to fight better and be significantly scarier. Also, there is a new paragraph on Mutant Ascendancy that should be quite pleasing to everyone.

[137ben]

Wow, this...is an amazing concept and well-designed sub-system.

A couple comments:

Tauric Body: The evolutionist’s lower body becomes that of a bestial creature, he is considered a quadruped, increasing his land speed by 10 feet and allowing him to treat himself as mounted for the purposes of feats and abilities (and also providing stability and increased cargo capacity). If he is already a quadruped, this teratomorphism can be taken in order to make him into a bipedal creature, improving reach for large sized beings, but removing the benefits of quadruped form, in this particular scenario it should probably have another name, but I am at a loss for one.

What about "hominic form?" ("man-like form").

Also, I think there should be an inverse tetromorph for amorphous form. Something like "solid form."

[Draken]

Originally Posted by 137ben

Wow, this...is an amazing concept and well-designed sub-system.

A couple comments:

What about "hominic form?" ("man-like form").

Also, I think there should be an inverse tetromorph for amorphous form. Something like "solid form."

Hominid form would be more correct in that case, wouldn't it? Either way, that line is mostly comedy.

It is hard to think of a benefit to be gained from an ability named "Solid Form" the closest possible would be the Plating teratomorphism found in the construct list.

As an additional, I spent quite a while trying to weed out as much as I could from the Plant mutation list that just made it necessary for them to be flora-related. The few things I couldn't take out were the names and a few terms here and there. But for all those mutations, I urge everyone to check "Mutations and Appearance" again, after all, you need Plant and Construct (with an entirely construct thematic, might I add) if you want to build GLaDOS along with the Aperture Science Enrichment Center* using an Evolutionist.

*A construct evolutionist with the Roots and offensive roots teratomorphism and the Grove mutation, taking a cave as its grove and redecorating it extensively with Budding creation.

[Selinia]

Another Draken-Approved PrC here: This time for those wanting to get their Doctor Frankenstein hat out of the closet and give a good airing.

The Progenitor
"...Owing to this struggle for life, any variation, however slight and from whatever cause proceeding, if it be in any degree profitable to an individual of any species, in its infinitely complex relationship to other organic beings and to external nature, will tend to the preservation of that individual, and will generally be inherited by its offspring..."
-Charles Darwin, Origin of Species

Nearly all evolutionists seek perfection in some form. The regal fury of a dragon, the boundless might of a giant, or even the vast reserves of untapped power that lie in the humanoid form: the specifics of their quest vary, but not their goal. Some, though, go further.

Progenitors slow their climb towards personal perfection, turning their attention to the creation of a legacy of beings to carry their quest through the generations... or perhaps simply to gain an army of loyal servants. Regardless of their motives, Progenitors are forces to be reckoned with, holding the secrets of life itself in their hands.

Prerequisites:
Skills: 13 ranks in the Knowledge skill relevant to your creature type (Religion for Undead, Local for Humanoids, etc)
Special: Must possess the Mutant Ascendancy class feature


HD: d8

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special
1	+0	+0	+0	+0	Mutations, Beget Progeny (One minion)
2	+1	+0	+0	+0	Mutations
3	+1	+1	+1	+1	Mutations
4	+2	+1	+1	+1	Mutations, Beget Progeny (Two minions)
5	+2	+1	+1	+1	Mutations
6	+3	+2	+2	+2	Mutations
7	+3	+2	+2	+2	Mutations, Beget Progeny (Three minions)
8	+4	+2	+2	+2	Mutations
9	+4	+3	+3	+3	Mutations
10	+5	+3	+3	+3	Mutations, Beget Progeny (Four minions), Promethean Perfection

Class Skills (2 + Int Modifier): Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Arcane), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (Nature) (Int), Knowledge (Psionics), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis) and Swim (Str)

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A progenitor gains no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Mutations: The progenitor gains four mutations per level.

Beget Progeny (Su): A progenitor toys in the realm of the gods, harnessing the terrible and awesome power to create life in their own image. Depending on their creature type and chosen aesthetic, the progenitor may go about this in any number of ways – she may build a sentient machine from cast-off scraps, stitch together a living corpse, hatch a fearsome brood from her own flesh and blood, or even infect another being with a fearsome transformative pathogen.

Whatever method she chooses, the process always takes at least 8 hours of uninterrupted work. To design their progeny, a progenitor first assigns their ability score as she pleases, using the nonelite array. The newly formed minion gains any racial features of the progenitor (including ability score adjustments), as well as the benefits of any attribute increases from mutations, and any benefits derived from a mutant ascendency. Progeny are always of the same creature type as their progenitor, though they lack the augmented subtype. Progeny are sentient, but are infallibly loyal to their creator – they will follow any order without hesitation, even if it means certain death.

These minions have an Evolutionist level of up to the progenitor’s mutator level -2, but possess half as many mutations as they normally would for their level. A progenitor can initially form only one minion, though if that minion is destroyed she may replace it without penalty. At 4th level, and every 3 levels thereafter, the progenitor may command an additional minion simultaneously. The progenitor’s third and fourth minions have a maximum evolutionist level of the progenitor’s mutator level -4, instead of -2. Progeny may only select mutations possessed by their progenitor. Progeny do not gain the Mutant Ascendancy or Mutant Perfection class features, and may not select any teratomorphism that their progenitor does not possess. If the progeny has taken all teratomorphisms possessed by the progenitor, it may select the Extra Mutations teratomorphism for each additional teratomorphism slot. A progenitor may choose to create weaker progeny if she wishes, reducing the number of evolutionist levels they are created with, but weakened progeny still count against the progenitor’s limit.

Promethean Perfection (Su): At 10th level, the progenitor gains true mastery over creation. No longer are her progeny bound solely to her own essence – she is capable of creating truly independent life. When the progenitor creates a new minion, she may choose to bring it to life as a fully self-sufficient entity. Progeny created in this manner have an evolutionist level of up to the progenitor’s mutator level -8, and are in no way bound to the will of their creator (though they are usually respectful and appreciative) in the way that other progeny are.

Creatures created by this ability do not count against the progenitor’s limit, are viable, and may live, die, and reproduce as appropriate to their nature. The specifics of their life cycle are up to the progenitor – it is entirely possible to seed the beginnings of an entirely new species with this ability.

[Theroc]

Hm... I do like the note on the Mutant Ascendancy, though I'd really like if the Mutant Perfection would allow one to become a 'true' dragon, just because I'd dislike the implication of being a 'false' dragon.

Plant stuff is cool though.

[Draken]

Originally Posted by Theroc

Hm... I do like the note on the Mutant Ascendancy, though I'd really like if the Mutant Perfection would allow one to become a 'true' dragon, just because I'd dislike the implication of being a 'false' dragon.

Plant stuff is cool though.

It is not about being a "true dragon" or a "false dragon", in this case. True dragons refers to those specific monsters in the MM that get stronger as they age, gaining more powers and racial HD from growing older. There is a reason an evolutionist can't change over to that mechanism. That is because even if I could design a system for such an advancement, it would never be balanced in any fashion.

What you can do, of course, is change when your Middle Age, Old Age, Venerable Age and Maximum Age arrive. And as Elans and Warforged demonstrate, any of these ages can, if you want to, arrive at a date of "never".

[Theroc]

Oh, I understand the true dragon distinction and the like. I just dislike the words attached since that means anything with the Dragon type that doesn't age that way isn't a 'real' dragon.

I realize it has no bearing on type and the like. It's just my flawed perceptions based on the language used. And I do like the overall change. Agelessness is always cool to achieve.

[Theroc]

Oh, another question that just occurred to me. If one's size is large when they take the natural weapon mutation, does it go up a step initially?

i.e. 1d4 claw becomes 1d6 claw if you're large sized?

[Draken]

Originally Posted by Theroc

Oh, another question that just occurred to me. If one's size is large when they take the natural weapon mutation, does it go up a step initially?

i.e. 1d4 claw becomes 1d6 claw if you're large sized?

Yes. The numbers given on the table for natural weapons is for medium-sized evolutionists.

And I repeat "True dragon" is not an implication that other creatures are false dragons. It is because the referenced creatures in the MM are called "Dragon, True".

[Theroc]

I understand what you're saying about the dragon stuff, Draken. I guess I didn't clearly explain. Despite logic and evidence to the contrary still get that vibe/feeling from the used terminology. I understand the intent is not to indicate that a Non-True dragon is fake, but to differentiate them due to aging patterns and the like. It doesn't change the feeling I get, rational or no.

Sorry if that was frustrating. Thanks for the prompt reply on the table for natural weapons. That'll be coming into play soon for a face-to-face game I'll be playing. (First session's next week).

[Theroc]

Another question regarding the natural weapons. If you already have a natural weapon from another source that deals a differing amount of damage than the table, does the mutation just increase the size a step, or does it first make the weapon conform to the table? For example: If I have a 1d8 bite attack as a large sized creature and take the bite mutation. Does that move up to the table's interpretation then, or does it just go up a step?

[Draken]

Originally Posted by Theroc

Another question regarding the natural weapons. If you already have a natural weapon from another source that deals a differing amount of damage than the table, does the mutation just increase the size a step, or does it first make the weapon conform to the table? For example: If I have a 1d8 bite attack as a large sized creature and take the bite mutation. Does that move up to the table's interpretation then, or does it just go up a step?

Just goes up a step.

If a creature already has an ability, mutations will not grant it again even if the mutation version is better, they will always improve upon what already exists.

Unless you get a second head, then sure, you can get a mutation-based bite.

[Lexin]

Would it be a problem to add a change log somewhere?
I am evolutionist in one character and wouldn't like to miss a new mutation.

(But of course it is really good that Evolutionist is still evolving )

[Faerieheart]

Hey how about a tauric form for snake like lower halves?

[Draken]

Originally Posted by Faerieheart

Hey how about a tauric form for snake like lower halves?

Tauric's mechanic changes your body configuration (from long to tall or from tall to long), how exactly your appearance changes upon taking it is entirelly up to you. Some people will get the lower body of a horse or a dog or a lion. Others will pick a spider, or a centipede. A snake is entirelly within the bounds of the ability.

As usual, refer to the "mutations and appearance" entry.

[Faerieheart]

Originally Posted by Draken

Tauric's mechanic changes your body configuration (from long to tall or from tall to long), how exactly your appearance changes upon taking it is entirelly up to you. Some people will get the lower body of a horse or a dog or a lion. Others will pick a spider, or a centipede. A snake is entirelly within the bounds of the ability.

As usual, refer to the "mutations and appearance" entry.

Except that most creatures with the tauric snake form acquire a climb speed, or swim speed or both and have their base speed lowered.

A tauric snake form would reduce base speed by ten and give you a climb speed, swim speed or both at the same rate.

What you have gives a faster land speed and at the start does the opposite of anything relating to a tauric snake form.

[radmelon]

Or you could just take the mutations to give you a climb/swim speed. The fluff and crunch for the abilities of this class are almost entire unconnected.

[Owrtho]

Originally Posted by Draken

Tauric's mechanic changes your body configuration (from long to tall or from tall to long), how exactly your appearance changes upon taking it is entirelly up to you. Some people will get the lower body of a horse or a dog or a lion. Others will pick a spider, or a centipede. A snake is entirelly within the bounds of the ability.

Except from the wording of the ability, it doesn't seem to. What it does, is grant or remove the quadruped ability, which from what I've seen is not linked to the tall or long body configurations (which impact one's reach and average height relative to size category).

Anyway, unrelated to the above, I'd suggest a possibility to have the elemental damage from swallow whole be substituted with something other than acid if proper requirements are met (such as being able to deal that element of damage with the bite attack, or having a breath weapon for the chosen element). As an example, I have a player in a game I'm getting ready to run who's playing what is effectively a fire elemental in armour (it's a setting specific race), and is taking swallow whole. I'm houseruling that the character would deal fire rather than acid (as I would think makes sense if you get swallowed by a large suite of armour filled with fire), but I figure that the option to do such might be worth putting in the actual rules for the ability.

Related to the above, I'm curious how the elemental mutations are coming along.

Owrtho

[Draken]

Then I will have to reword it, because Tauric is meant to, as its mechanic effect, change your posture between tall and long (which has effects on reach for large and larger creatures). But it is noteworthy that the Monster Manual tacitly equates "tall" to "biped" and "long" to "quadruped" in page 298.

As for the Swallow Whole bit, I will make a special entry for that.

Elemental Mutations has some interesting things. Currently my greatest trouble is wording a few thing about it (the tier 6 teratomorphism and defining a perfection, pretty much).

[Faerieheart]

"Prerequisite: Any natural weapon.
Ability Score: None
Benefit: The evolutionist chooses one of his natural weapons and increases its threat range or its critical multiplier by one. No single natural weapon can have a critical range higher than 18-20 or a multiplier higher than x4. The effects of this mutation do not stack with the Keen enchantment or the Improved Critical feat.
Further Mutations: -"

I'm confused is this capable of being taken multiple times or not? And if so on the same weapon? For example base natural attacks are generally 20/x2 could you say take it 4 times and end up with 18-20/x4?