Ah, this is indeed a pretty good strip. Ah who am I kidding it was a very good one. Gonna come out right now and say it is a **** strip nice and easily. And so as to not bog down my own review thing with Tarquin discussion I would say that I am not suprised he is unaffected by the Holy Word. I still dislike the character, and think he gives Nale short shrift etc. But this sort of strip leans towards what I think works for a secondary villain. A challenge for the Order that requires smart planning and hard work to overcome. A good chance to show new sides to the heroes. I objected when he curbstomped them (and still think it was annoying and dramatically poor when he easily won on the pyramid top, but only minor changes would "fix" it for me*), but this seems to hint at a hard fought victory for whatever side wins. Exactly what we need.
*Essentially having Tarquin get healed by Malack and not his own ring would make the scene better for me. Makes the Order seem more competent, but still allows the threat of Tarquin to come forth.
However onto the more complete analysis, Tarquin now fully covered.
The Good:
1) I like to comment on the art first, when it includes a praiseworthy element. And tis is no exception. As action packed a strip as this makes it easy to lose sight of small details. Not so here. In early strips it could happen, but in this one every detail is carefully accounted for. Sound and movement effects on arrows, swords and more are all well crafted. More than that the effect of Sabine's banishment is very good. Each aspect is one that helps add to the image as a whole. Finally the action movement of Belkar is dynamic in a way we rarely see. That vertical dive is a rare image, but a fabulous one. Great art.
2) Roy is being smart. I may have disliked how we got here but it is a great chance to show off the tactical smarts of Roy and co. As mentioned before by another poster it also shows a bit of character development for Roy. Beforehands Roy has never stood back and allowed his party to fight and follow his plan without immediate direction. A real leader needs to be able to stand back and allow his "followers" to act out the plan. In this instance Roy is showing his maturation from...........well an in battle sergeant micromanager type to full on captain. In addition Roy is rising to the challenge, planning 2 or more steps ahead and incorporating the small details.
3) The development for the LG is also great. Tarquin's douchiness is of course revealed more fully as well as his disdain for Nale. Though I personally am not too harsh on Nale here. But the moment between Sabine and Nale....wow. Their relationship has never felt more genuine and real. She really truly loves him. And the loss of Sabine causes Nale to totally lose it for a moment. This humanises a character we often dismiss, makking me think there is a juicy plot with them to come. In short this moment makes Nale/Sabine more interesting, as Belkar's change since the MOJ arc did for him.
4) Not too many jokes in this strip. But this is not a complaint. As there are just a couple of proper gags, with a cool set up for the final panel joke. Concentrated funny as opposed to lots of minor jokes. I liked this.
5) Finally, I wish to praise the pacing of the strip. Each individual "moment" is short, to the point and clear. They all flow well. No panel seems superfluous, and yet I do not see any way we could add another one in. The action never lets up, and every panel adds a new detail to the whole, doing at least 2 jobs. Finally the initial scenes with Sabine were given just the right amount of time to breathe and sink it. Excellent technical skill there.
The Bad:
1)..............er...................yeah. No complaints here. Every point worked. Every point.
So yeah. **** strip with ease. Excellent work here.
But I do have one comment. A lot of time people are very hard on Nale, as a character and with his in-story actions. Now I find his plans often yield far more sucesses than people give him credit for. In Dorukan's dungeon it was a freak natural 20 that led to his eventual defeat. In Cliffport the plan pretty much succeeded. Yes the Druid was beaten, but considering that Thor broke the laws of physics (in Stickverse) to do so we can hardly blame Nale for this. His plan worked. When Elan returned he was lost fo course, but it was not easy. They were defeated conclusively in the EoB, but considering it was an impromtu attack they did allright, requiring the intervention of Malack for a decisive win. The Order usually win, but it is never easy and often involves outside/unexpected assistance.
Nale does have flaws. He get's overconfident pretty easily.He is not as smart as he thinks. He gets in over his head too easily, and worst of all does not adapt well to changes to the plan. This leads to being flustered too easily and misunderstanding the situation. But he does a lot better then fandom often gives him credit for. Now if you dislike Nale this is fine, opinion is pretty much sacrosanct. No complaints. But I think that his past success level is something to be considered when he is involved in fighting the Order.
__________________
If I cared about this, I would probably do something about it.
I would argue that a creature with animal intelligence would be unable to understand concepts of alignment and would therefore be unaffected by holy word.
By RAW, housecats are "Always Neutral", thus making them eligible targets for Holy Word.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omergideon
Spoiler
But I do have one comment. A lot of time people are very hard on Nale, as a character and with his in-story actions. Now I find his plans often yield far more sucesses than people give him credit for. In Dorukan's dungeon it was a freak natural 20 that led to his eventual defeat. In Cliffport the plan pretty much succeeded. Yes the Druid was beaten, but considering that Thor broke the laws of physics (in Stickverse) to do so we can hardly blame Nale for this. His plan worked. When Elan returned he was lost of course, but it was not easy. They were defeated conclusively in the EoB, but considering it was an impromptu attack they did allright, requiring the intervention of Malack for a decisive win. The Order usually win, but it is never easy and often involves outside/unexpected assistance.
Nale does have flaws. He get's overconfident pretty easily.He is not as smart as he thinks. He gets in over his head too easily, and worst of all does not adapt well to changes to the plan. This leads to being flustered too easily and misunderstanding the situation. But he does a lot better then fandom often gives him credit for. Now if you dislike Nale this is fine, opinion is pretty much sacrosanct. No complaints. But I think that his past success level is something to be considered when he is involved in fighting the Order.
Although I'm no fan of Nale, I agree with you; he does often get less credit than he deserves for his various plots against the Order.
Even if Nale dies here, I don't think it's the end of his arc. There's pretty much been 0 payoff to the whole being a pawn of the IFCC thing. Plus that hanging Amun-Zora plot thread, though I'm not sure if the business card was just a gag or red herring.
Also, the more Tarquin rags on Nale, the more I want Nale to (briefly) win and make General Spikyhelm suffer.
__________________ group hug! Hold Person.
~R.I.P. Thog (possibly) and Durkon Thundershield (eventually)~
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by martianmister
Mongolian hordes. Lots of lots of mongolian hordes. With a mongolian warrior chief. They will conquer Gobbotopia and rename it as Mongolitopia. Because that makes so much sense.
I would argue that a creature with animal intelligence would be unable to understand concepts of alignment and would therefore be unaffected by holy word.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperordaniel
By RAW, housecats are "Always Neutral", thus making them eligible targets for Holy Word.
Animals are always neutral because they lack the ability to understand and chose alignment.
Animals are not mentioned in the text for spells like Holy Word, but as a GM I would be inclined to allow immunity to creatures that are neutral not by choice, but due to an animal-level intelligence that prevents them from understanding.
Their: a possessive pronoun like “her” or “our” There: refers to a place ("the Kobold is over THERE"), or to indicate the existence of something, or to mention something for the first time. ("THERE is a Halfling sneaking up on him") They're: a contraction of “they are.”
Animals are not mentioned in the text for spells like Holy Word, but as a GM I would be inclined to allow immunity to creatures that are neutral not by choice, but due to an animal-level intelligence that prevents them from understanding.
But that's just me.
I see where you're coming from, but then what about things like mindless or animalistic undead?
Their: a possessive pronoun like “her” or “our” There: refers to a place ("the Kobold is over THERE"), or to indicate the existence of something, or to mention something for the first time. ("THERE is a Halfling sneaking up on him") They're: a contraction of “they are.”
IMO, part of the problem is that DnD handles mundane animals as if they were "monsters". That's fine for resolving the combat when a house cat disembowels a level 1 commoner, but it can cause problems in other areas. I think that for mundane animals, their alignment shouldn't be "Neutral" (or "True Neutral") but rather "None".
IMO, part of the problem is that DnD handles mundane animals as if they were "monsters". That's fine for resolving the combat when a house cat disembowels a level 1 commoner, but it can cause problems in other areas. I think that for mundane animals, their alignment shouldn't be "Neutral" (or "True Neutral") but rather "None".
It wouldn't be a bad houserule to say that anything with an Int score less than 3 has an alignment of None. (Though that could make for interesting problems if a barbarian/paladin/druid/monk who takes a bunch of Int damage, heh.)
__________________
LGBTitP
Quote:
Originally Posted by ti'esar
I just want to say that if this isn't the weirdest line of argument I've seen this thread take yet, it's not for lack of trying.
And this is why Qarr has probably been spared by the spell. Zz'dtri will be upset to notice V running around, and realize his familiar has betrayed him.
Or not. We already saw how easy it is for a team of mid-teen adventurers to retrieve a comrade from some random plane. Unless he got sent to one of the major lower planes, a plane shift is just a temporary setback.
__________________
'F' is the fire that rains from the Sky
'U' for Uranium, BOMB!
'N' is for No Survivors...
Has anyone noticed that despite T knowing about and explaining how Holy Word (a spell that only harms the non-good) works, he still managed to do it without referencing the alignment system that he seems to disdain.
color me impressed.
__________________
Impossible is a biased statement.
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
First off,
Awesome comic!
My favorite panel is panel 4 where Z'zdtri fumbles Gust of Wind.
Tarquin's speech does seem a little out of character, but hey, exposition.
+1 to Tarquin for recognizing Durkon's spell. Roy doesn't need spellcraft to recognize Durkon's spell because the ambush implies Durkon and Roy would've discussed using Holy Word before the battle began.
Regarding Belkar, a closed trap door blocks line of effect...
but Belkar (although he was off screen at the time Holy Word was cast) clearly wasn't keeping his trap door closed when we see him on screen. The implication is that he had the trap door slightly open to observe the ambush when the spell was cast and therefore line of effect was not blocked (please note: hearing the spell does not provide line of effect unless, of course, the Giant house rules it). As for Mr. Scruffy, I thought he was epic level
Totally awesome banishment fade away scene!
In response to everyone who thinks the mummies were destroyed by the Holy Word consult comic #858 panel 9. The mummies are ahead of the group and it remains to be seen if any mummies at all were caught in the area of effect. Admittedly, the 40' radius is substantial... so is this hallway...
Belkar's response to being deafened is really very funny because he thinks they cast some sort of Silence spell, and he is using speech to tell Roy about this! This is sort of how all the characters in the comic are reacting.
Nale removing the arrows from his body is a cool detail. Speaking of details, does anyone know what the gray around the arrow heads represents? These arrows are not thick like the first arrow that created the cloud of smoke and there is enough color in the comic that I would expect to see some red if they were flaming arrows... so what is it? Magic arrows is my first thought... but why gray?
The spell failed, since Belkar couldn't hear. Nale won't be able to simply re-issue the suggestion. I'd certainly presume that the swirly eyed-ness is for humor, not to suggest the suggestion somehow took hold, but not quite yet. Certainly possible, but I'm not betting on it :P
Failed so hard his eyes went swirly in the affected-by-Suggestion way.
Belkar failed his save against the spell, but he can't be given an order since he can't understand the orders right now. The spell lasts for x hours or until Belkar completes whatever it is Nale tells him to do - once Belkar can understand him.
Plain as dirt.
__________________
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Giant
Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Giant
No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.
First off,
Awesome comic!
My favorite panel is panel 4 where Z'zdtri fumbles Gust of Wind.
Tarquin's speech does seem a little out of character, but hey, exposition.
+1 to Tarquin for recognizing Durkon's spell. Roy doesn't need spellcraft to recognize Durkon's spell because the ambush implies Durkon and Roy would've discussed using Holy Word before the battle began.
Regarding Belkar, a closed trap door blocks line of effect...
but Belkar (although he was off screen at the time Holy Word was cast) clearly wasn't keeping his trap door closed when we see him on screen. The implication is that he had the trap door slightly open to observe the ambush when the spell was cast and therefore line of effect was not blocked (please note: hearing the spell does not provide line of effect unless, of course, the Giant house rules it). As for Mr. Scruffy, I thought he was epic level
Totally awesome banishment fade away scene!
In response to everyone who thinks the mummies were destroyed by the Holy Word consult comic #858 panel 9. The mummies are ahead of the group and it remains to be seen if any mummies at all were caught in the area of effect. Admittedly, the 40' radius is substantial... so is this hallway...
Belkar's response to being deafened is really very funny because he thinks they cast some sort of Silence spell, and he is using speech to tell Roy about this! This is sort of how all the characters in the comic are reacting.
Nale removing the arrows from his body is a cool detail. Speaking of details, does anyone know what the gray around the arrow heads represents? These arrows are not thick like the first arrow that created the cloud of smoke and there is enough color in the comic that I would expect to see some red if they were flaming arrows... so what is it? Magic arrows is my first thought... but why gray?
~R.I.P. Thog (possibly) and Durkon Thundershield (eventually)~
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by martianmister
Mongolian hordes. Lots of lots of mongolian hordes. With a mongolian warrior chief. They will conquer Gobbotopia and rename it as Mongolitopia. Because that makes so much sense.
Failed so hard his eyes went swirly in the affected-by-Suggestion way.
Belkar failed his save against the spell, but he can't be given an order since he can't understand the orders right now. The spell lasts for x hours or until Belkar completes whatever it is Nale tells him to do - once Belkar can understand him.
Plain as dirt.
Yeah... no.
Rich had to make it clear that the ONLY reason Suggestion didn't work was because of the deafness, and showing his eyes swirly is really the only way to do that. The SRD is very explicit about Suggestion not allowing additional suggestions beyond the first, so my money is most certainly not on Nale randomly getting to do something blatantly against the verbiage of the spell.
If you think otherwise, great, but you are guessing just as much as I am, and I have the SRD backing me up :P
__________________ Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!
I can't believe I'm actually feeling slightly sorry for Nale.
Neither can I.
Luckily, my own heart is a cold block of ice, and so I can say...Die, Nale. Die forever.
__________________
Spoiler
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
"The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan
~R.I.P. Thog (possibly) and Durkon Thundershield (eventually)~
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by martianmister
Mongolian hordes. Lots of lots of mongolian hordes. With a mongolian warrior chief. They will conquer Gobbotopia and rename it as Mongolitopia. Because that makes so much sense.
Rich had to make it clear that the ONLY reason Suggestion didn't work was because of the deafness, and showing his eyes swirly is really the only way to do that. The SRD is very explicit about Suggestion not allowing additional suggestions beyond the first, so my money is most certainly not on Nale randomly getting to do something blatantly against the verbiage of the spell.
If you think otherwise, great, but you are guessing just as much as I am, and I have the SRD backing me up :P
I don't see that the SRD is quite so clear about that, honestly. It is clear that if they make their save against the suggestion, you can't make another... but if they didn't hear the suggestion at all, I'd say they don't even bother rolling a save against it (but the caster can try again).
But since Belkar seems to have failed his save, I do agree that Nale probably won't get another shot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff
Live, Nale. Live forever!
...in Hell with Daddy.
And Girlfriendy. Can't forget her.
__________________
LGBTitP
Quote:
Originally Posted by ti'esar
I just want to say that if this isn't the weirdest line of argument I've seen this thread take yet, it's not for lack of trying.
Has anyone noticed that despite T knowing about and explaining how Holy Word (a spell that only harms the non-good) works, he still managed to do it without referencing the alignment system that he seems to disdain.
color me impressed
Yeah, I was also amazed by that. It shows even more deeply how for him, Good and Evil are only sides you choose to be on, not philosophies/values. He doesn't understand that people can be Good not only because they are on the side of Good on the divine level, but also due to their way of thinking and acting (Empathy, care for others, selflessness, etc).
This is actually interesting, when you think he's not entirely in the wrong. Remember when the Giant once ended a RC alignment debate by saying something like ''In DnD terms, he's evil, whether or not his actions are morally justified is unrelevant to his alignment.'', implying he's evil because he worships an evil god and opposes the side of Good. In DnD (And OotS), someone can be evil due to the side they're on, while how they act and how they think is less important since it's another kind of spectrum. So someone could be on the side of Evil and yet be a good person.
(Don't misinterpret what I said, I know that the Giant especially said that to end the argument, I'm not saying evil and good in OotS has nothing to do with values and ideologies.)
I agree, its weird that the life draining incarnation of evil some how manages to evoke pitty... but she does, and that makes Rich as an author all the more impresive. She cares, she really does (maybe only about Nale, but still).
She is in some way becoming more reminicent of Therkla in recent strips. Her focus is on Nale, not a major plot, not on Good vs Evil, not even gaining power, just being there for her (psychotic evil) boyfriend.
__________________
Impossible is a biased statement.
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
Rich had to make it clear that the ONLY reason Suggestion didn't work was because of the deafness, and showing his eyes swirly is really the only way to do that. The SRD is very explicit about Suggestion not allowing additional suggestions beyond the first, so my money is most certainly not on Nale randomly getting to do something blatantly against the verbiage of the spell.
If you think otherwise, great, but you are guessing just as much as I am, and I have the SRD backing me up :P
And, as far as the subject of the spell is concerned, there hasn't been a single suggestion made since there's been no communication. The Suggestion (spell) is on Belkar as evidenced by swirly eyes. The suggestion (course of action) does not exist yet as there has been no established, understood communication, something the SRD explicitly points out needs to happen for anything to happen because of the spell.
Now, had deafness actually caused the spell itself to fail, Belkar's eyes should revert from the swirliness. Clearly, Rich isn't doing that and abiding by the part of the [Language-Dependant] descriptor that reads
Quote:
If the target cannot understand or cannot hear what the caster of a language-dependant spell says the spell fails.
so there must be a reason his eyes are still swirly. And since in this comic, what actually happens trumps the SRD, then :P to you too.
__________________
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Giant
Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Giant
No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.
so there must be a reason his eyes are still swirly. And since in this comic, what actually happens trumps the SRD, then :P to you too.
So... your interpretation of the comic is that Roy's master plan was NOT to cause Suggestion to fail "It's not a bug, it's a feature" but instead to cause it to be delayed, and that somehow Roy won't realize what is happening despite clearly and specifically planning against it?"
See, my interpretation is that Rich wants us to understand that the spell was not resisted, but failed due to the silence. The swirly eyes are to show that Belkar failed his save. While, clearly, Rich isn't going by the strict SRD reading where the spell would have failed outright, that really doesn't imply that he is going to allow Nale to make ANOTHER suggestion as part of the same cast, since that is very much not how suggestion has ever worked.
__________________ Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!
So... your interpretation of the comic is that Roy's master plan was NOT to cause Suggestion to fail "It's not a bug, it's a feature" but instead to cause it to be delayed, and that somehow Roy won't realize what is happening despite clearly and specifically planning against it?"
See, my interpretation is that Rich wants us to understand that the spell was not resisted, but failed due to the silence. The swirly eyes are to show that Belkar failed his save. While, clearly, Rich isn't going by the strict SRD reading where the spell would have failed outright, that really doesn't imply that he is going to allow Nale to make ANOTHER suggestion as part of the same cast, since that is very much not how suggestion has ever worked.
Again, it very well could work that way depending on how the DM in question reads it. I can see it both ways, but I think I'd lean against your interpretation.
Also, Roy could well just plan to end Nale as a major threat before the deafness wears off, or just be regarding Belkar being immune to the suggestion for the time being as a bonus, rather than a critical portion of his plan. Or find another way to keep Nale from carrying out his suggestion before the deafness wears off (Haley could gag him, someone could knock him unconscious, Belkar could leave the battle...) Not likely, but not unreasonable either.
__________________
LGBTitP
Quote:
Originally Posted by ti'esar
I just want to say that if this isn't the weirdest line of argument I've seen this thread take yet, it's not for lack of trying.
My interpretation is that Roy means for Belkar to kill Nale. Between Haley's arrows, Belkar's attacks, and whatever is up next to hit Nale, Roy is trusting on the deafness duration to be long enough to permit that by throwing Nale way off his game. Roy knows that Nale does not react well to surprises and he is milking that for everything here.
Belkar being deaf too is a side-benefit, as it protects him from something the Order knows to be one of Nale's staple spells - Suggestion being used against Belkar's well-known poor Will save. That Nale went ahead and used Suggestion makes Belkar's deafness useful to Roy and plays further into Roy's plans.
__________________
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Giant
Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Giant
No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.
I certainly never siad only my opinion mattered, and I have to question why you are making up completely implausible arguments and attempting to attribute them to me. I'll politely ask you to stop..
I will stop when you stop doing it. Consider the following statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FujinAkari
Simply plugging in real numbers and letting the game be as broken as it falls...
First, you are assuming that the numbers as they fall are broken, which is not the case, as long as there are people enjoying D&D. I was defending the rules as they are, against somebody who wanted to change them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FujinAkari
...because
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay R
They are real bows that have real ranges. The range for an actual weapon should be looked up, not made up.
is absolutely atrocious game design.
There is no significant difference between this and saying that caring about what Jay R cares about and FujinAkari does not care about is atrocious game design. How does this differ from saying that only your opinion matters? I will back down to this extent. You aren't saying that only your opinion matters; you are stating that my opinion does not - that considering my opinion is atrocious game design.
I will never treat you that way.
I have stated that both your game desires and mine can be good game design. You have stated that what matters to me is atrocious game design.
I am now leaving this discussion, because I don't think claiming that designing games with my interests in mind is inherently atrocious game design is a useful way to forward a discussion or exchange views in good faith.
I still believe that your goals should matter, and I will never state that designers designing games to please you is "atrocious game design."
RSS Feeds: 
Re: Did Nale hear Sabine say she loves him forever?
And... I believe in you.
C fl epefggj cd gpyb hcex jpz.
Re: OOTS #860 - The Discussion Thread
Fiction Editor for 
Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club! 
