Here's the problem I have with your analysis: going by the standards FimFiction puts forth for the Dark tag, at minimum the S2 opener and S2 finale would have been considered "Dark", along with several other episodes such as Party of One. I can't imagine that you would consider these episodes to be lacking in the setting's flavor.
The problem I have is that, as it stands, the "Dark" tag encompasses too wide a spectrum of story elements for anypony to make broad statements about it.
I was speaking in more general terms than Fimfiction tags. I certainly don't find Party of One lacking in the FiM flavour! Seems there's a bit of a problem, there.
Quote:
there is an army equipped and ready to use lethal force. the wonderbolts attempted to kill a rampaging spike.
tartarus is a place in equestria.
clearly we're not seeing very bad things that are there.
Wonderbolts: You'll have to back that up. They attacked him, yes. Kill? You'll have to prove it.
Army: There's an army, yes. We've also seen their (lack of) readiness to use said lethal force.
Tartarus: All we know is that it's a prison for "ancient evils that could destroy Equestria". It could contain a some pony-mutilating horrornasty, but could equally contain things about as grimdark as Nightmare Moon and Discord.
Furthermore, consider that it doesn't get much darker than kidnapping and slavery and we did see how that went. We've also seen several pretty damn serious psychological meltdowns and we've also seen how those went. I'll stick with the hard, candy-coated facts, thanks.
Derby, UK and Bleak Despair battlestation. Species: Spirit-Bound Skeletal Lich (Lawful Evil)
Gender:
Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strife Warzeal
Villians?
Spoiler
Looking at that, the thought struck me that Silver Spoon and Diamind Tiara should absolutely brick themselves when they look behind them...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
Isn't there already a grimdark tag? Or is that just on Equestria Daily or something?
EQD has several more layers of tags than FiM, Grimdark, Dark, even one or two Grimlite (whatever that means...)
EQD's Grimdark generally means violence-related content. Dark - is a bit more subjective.
Also, things like A Dangerous Business contain death (technically, if not of ponies) and some violence, but it's not explicit and that sort of thing only gets an Adventure tag... which I think is a sort of halfway house.
Personally, I tend to avoid Grimdark (though I've read a few that didn't start out as grimdark) and treat Dark with suspicion, since the ones I have read with those tags I tended not to enjoy much. Often because they ramped up the violence or derailed Celestia into a tyrant or something.
I'm not, then, necessarily against Dark per se, but I look much harder at the summary, and if I don't see something promising, I don't bother.
To be fair, I don't much like the "dark/grimdark" equivilent-type stories in Naruto or Harry Potter fanfic, either, and they already have death and bloodshed normally.
The trouble is, my personaly fanfic experience is that a fair proportion of people who do write "darker" (than the source material) tend to go into angst, character death (especially) and screwing over the characters, none of which I find entertaining when done to excess; and often infrequently unlevened by humour.
(If something is really funny, I'll forgive a lot of stuff. Nugar's Naruto fic/sidefics People Lie is really quite dark and grim (Naruto, Sasuke and Hinata essentially, while still being loyal leaf ninja, are pretty close to being Evil-aligned; though that whole ninja world is pretty nasty - in the base continuity, Lovecraftian stuff happens); but the dark and gorey bits are interspersed with actually "had-to-stop-reading-the-fic-for-ten-minutes-while-laughing" moments; moreover, Naruto and co, while being kinda Evil, are really likable (Nugar's Sasuke, a real deadpan snarker, is quite possibly my favourite Sasuke in any continuity), and the series doesn't randomly kill off characters to show it's being dark.
On the flip side, there was one Naruto fic that started off quite well, and the abruptly slammed into flat-out torture porn, right down to literal baby-eating in the space of a couple of chapters. I would have stopped reading at that point, but I don't think it ever updated again.)
So my general rule with pony dark/grimdark is, unless like the Empty Room you manage to pull enough of a fast one to catch me before you add the grimdark tag in and get me interested, if the summary implies character deaths and Celestia-is-a-tyrant, I'm not likely to give it much of a look, unless it comes highly recommended by some source I trust (e.g. on the favourites of some author who's taste in fics is fairly similar to mine, for example.)
Last edited by Aotrs Commander : 08-14-2012 at 02:04 PM.
All settings have a certain flavour. This flavour is not determined by the story being told at any given time, but by the common narrative elements and conceits that underpin the stories told. A setting is like a character, in that it's locales, players and events are it's appearance, the flavour is the setting's personality. A story that doesn't have the setting's flavour is thus "acting" out of character. Equestria without the rosy tint is like a Philip Marlowe story without the noir, Eberron without the pulpy dungeonpunk or the Cthulhu Mythos without the loss of sanity. It looks like the metaphorical duck, but it doesn't walk and quack like it.
Yes, if you're trying to write an episode of the show, or a comedy in the same style, then you have to stay true to the same feeling and atmosphere and general assumptions of the setting that the show uses.
The feeling of the setting, as you describe, is relative and depends on the story you're trying to tell. You could theoretically write a story set in Lovecraft's universe without any horror. Maybe a comedy about some scholar who finds the Mad Arab's cookbook. It wouldn't be a classic Lovecraft horror story, sure, but it would still be in the same setting and could be just as true to the setting and characters as any of Lovecraft's own tales (whether it would work and be interesting is another matter). Now, if you were to also have Pinkie Pie drop in through some interdimensional rift and help the scholar cook up some of the recipes in the book, that'd be OOC for Lovecraft's setting (but maybe not for Pinkie ).
Or take Tolkien's Middle Earth. You could tell any number of stories in that setting, and they wouldn't all have to involve big epic struggles or long journeys. It could be a tale about a bunch of dwarves digging and drinking, and it'd probably be pretty short and pretty silly and not at all like one of Tolkien's own stories, but it could stay true to the characters and the setting just fine anyway. It might get too silly and definitely OOC, but it doesn't have to.
What you suggest is that it is OOC if it's not exactly as if it was written by the original author(s) of the setting (Tolkien, Lovecraft or in this case the writers of FiM). If that's the only thing you want to read then that's your choice, although I personally think you'll be missing out a lot, but just because someone writes a different kind of story in the same setting doesn't mean it's OOC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlyGuyMcFly
That's the rub. We've seen conflict. Racial tensions exploding into violent conflict in Over a Barrel, slavery in A Dog and Pony Show, assault on a civilian population in A Canterlot Wedding. And it's never dark or mature (in the sense being used here). I don't think this is because the show presents a biased sample (so to speak) of Equestria, but rather because that's the way Equestria actually is. Harmony and Friendship are all but physical laws, like much like how Discworld runs on Narrative Causality or Gurren Lagann runs on Rule of Cool, Rule of Funny and Spiral Power.
No, it's because the show can't show these things or go into detail. Equestria does have death (we've seen a funeral in Hearts and Hooves Day) and all these other things, but because the show is a children's show they're not going to dwell on it or anything. But it's still part of the setting, it's there, it's just not very prominent in the episodes.
Ponies die in Equestria, some are probably eaten by monsters, but you don't want to show the target audience that, and we wouldn't want to see it in the show either, because you're right that this is not how the show should be. But every story doesn't have to be like an episode to be IC, there are many sides of life in Equestria that can't be explored in the show for one reason or another. Length of episodes is another, for example, but that doesn't mean every story should be short slice-of-life style tales to be IC.
Deadly, a delightfully daring drawer and drafter of dissertations. Defying the dictations of our disparate denizens, Deadly decides his direction with a dirth of dependence on the decisions of despotic desperados. Deadly detests dismissive derision, and will debate any dude or dame that dares to detest discussion.
Yes, if you're trying to write an episode of the show, or a comedy in the same style, then you have to stay true to the same feeling and atmosphere and general assumptions of the setting that the show uses.
The feeling of the setting, as you describe, is relative and depends on the story you're trying to tell. You could theoretically write a story set in Lovecraft's universe without any horror. Maybe a comedy about some scholar who finds the Mad Arab's cookbook. It wouldn't be a classic Lovecraft horror story, sure, but it would still be in the same setting and could be just as true to the setting and characters as any of Lovecraft's own tales (whether it would work and be interesting is another matter). Now, if you were to also have Pinkie Pie drop in through some interdimensional rift and help the scholar cook up some of the recipes in the book, that'd be OOC for Lovecraft's setting (but maybe not for Pinkie ).
Alternitivly, a new pony comes to ponyville and starts matchmaking. Pinkie get's snuggly with Pony Joe, Flutter's and Big Mac hook up, ect. Twilight decides to look into this tall, dark, genuinly charming mare is, and after several "field observations" she finds out nothing at all. Not a bit. Until, of course, the mare shows up on Twilys doorstep looking for her. After a few conversations in which she gives up almost nothing, Twilight finaly lets the mare stay inside for the night. Then the week. Until she ends up being in there for the better part of a month.
Then, after Twilight has pretty much forgotten why she invited this, tall, wonderfull, fantastic mare into her house, Candace and Luna shows up to confront the mare.After a tense conversation, the mare known only as "Shubby" gets forced out, but everyone is still hooked up. Besides Twilight, at least.
__________________
Well, one time at Bard camp...
Former avatars & Quotes
Spoiler
Former avatar, had it since I started realy posting here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tychris1
Pokonic look what you have done! You fool, you`ve doomed us all!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doorhandle
Oh Pokonic, never change. And never become my D.M.
This is the thief who likes to hoard,
That loves the bard with the puppet Lord
That admires the fighter with the green-hilted sword,
That employs the Wizard, whose bird is ignored,
That has the gender unexplored
That intrigues the Halfling, usually bored,
That slew a mountain of the goblin horde,
That follows the cleric,
That serves the lich,
That seeks the gate,
That guards the snarl,
That lives in the prison the gods built.
Wait a... I'm sure I read a couple more chapters of that fic! Where are they?
oh god.
It's spilling out to ponythread! Run for your canons!
I don't know what you're talking about, the second chapter is right there, just like it Always Has Been... Now with a greatly increased number of cookie dough metaphors
__________________
Proof-reading is totally unnecessary in the digital age now that we have spell cheque.
I don't know what you're talking about, the second chapter is right there, just like it Always Has Been... Now with a greatly increased number of cookie dough metaphors
I ship you/Anyone./Infernal Gardevoir from outside the playground, by Recaiden//ExtendedSig
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanqol
It's not normal, of course, and what's actually happening in Comet Kicker's brain is that she's using regular murder as therapy for worse murder. There's a breakdown in the works and all it needs is one good, hard kick.
I don't know what you're talking about, the second chapter is right there, just like it Always Has Been... Now with a greatly increased number of cookie dough metaphors
Dat pun. /)*3*(\
__________________
The good comes with the bad and the trick is always seeing both at once.
It really is self-evident that the Elements of Harmony combine are not so much a power in and of themselves but rather a way to channel the fundamental conceptual and infinite levels of power that underlie the reality of Equestria.
Thus ranking them is rather an unstoppable force meets immovable object question....
Well, considering that they defeated Discord, who is their antithesis, it appears that the unstoppable force kicks the immovable object in the nuts and then dances on its head.
__________________
Avapony by Dirtytabs!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
Finding out that the ennui and cynicism of our times is not, after all, an unavoidable unreverseable fate does kind of throw your world-view off, potentially.
I ship you/Anyone./Infernal Gardevoir from outside the playground, by Recaiden//ExtendedSig
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanqol
It's not normal, of course, and what's actually happening in Comet Kicker's brain is that she's using regular murder as therapy for worse murder. There's a breakdown in the works and all it needs is one good, hard kick.
Finding out that the ennui and cynicism of our times is not, after all, an unavoidable unreverseable fate does kind of throw your world-view off, potentially.
Well, considering that they defeated Discord, who is their antithesis, it appears that the unstoppable force kicks the immovable object in the nuts and then dances on its head.
This makes sense to me as while arguably an incarnation/personification Discord is not himself discord and chaos. It would make sense for him to actually have limits, however effectively godlike they would be.
Even if he can be said to have endless power it is only manifest in certain ways and certain amounts, it is limited in ways the Elements of Harmony are not...
Though Discord is arguably quite insensible to rank as well.
What!? Dragged through a mirror by shadowy vampire ponies to an ancient space-fortress in golden chains and you call this...
buh....whu...
What are you, some kind of Kidnapping connoisseur now?
Why you infuriating little... I could just... I'll have you...
Uh.
Spoiler
Yeah, okay, I guess I didn't think this through at all, did I?
"Why yes, I am a kidnapping connoisseur. I'm in a support group with Princesses Peach and Zelda. The Guild of Chains has my photo on the cover of it's monthly magazine. And all I get is a half-finished monologue which turns into a weaksauce admission of failure?
"Also I could pick these handcuffs in my sleep."
Quote:
[edit] A bonus mask-in-chains, below.
Spoiler
Apparently, it turns out I really like her mane.
It's surprisingly fun to paint.
Mask has the prettiest mane ever. I really aced her colour scheme.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadly
Are you deliberately trying to annoy me, Thanqol?
Yes.
__________________
"There may be no good reason for things to be the way they are."
"Why yes, I am a kidnapping connoisseur. I'm in a support group with Princesses Peach and Zelda. The Guild of Chains has my photo on the cover of it's monthly magazine. And all I get is a half-finished monologue which turns into a weaksauce admission of failure?
"Also I could pick these handcuffs in my sleep."
The Guild of Chains? I think I get that catalogue. I really enjoyed their article last month on the 5 most comfortable ball gags, and the best and worst pairs of fuzzy handcuffs.
Really liked seeing your picture on the cover, too.
__________________
Proof-reading is totally unnecessary in the digital age now that we have spell cheque.
I ship you/Anyone./Infernal Gardevoir from outside the playground, by Recaiden//ExtendedSig
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanqol
It's not normal, of course, and what's actually happening in Comet Kicker's brain is that she's using regular murder as therapy for worse murder. There's a breakdown in the works and all it needs is one good, hard kick.
I realize now I just like arguing. I can see both sides of the argument. They both have merit.
What's important is you do what you feel you should. Have fun!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanqol
Princess Celestia is best princess. I can't believe I haven't drawn her before.
Spoiler
Huh, you haven't.
And uh, second best. Sorry mate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anarion
LotR is absolutely doable in the pony universe. It has a strong theme of working together through harsh challenges, plus they already have Minias Tirith=Canterlot.
However, looking at LotR, how would you do the death of Boromir in a pony context? Would it be a pony that rejected the rest of the group? Boromir died in the originals because he saw the error of his ways and tried to defend Merry and Pippin, but a pony seeing the error of his ways would presumably have various protections, not to mention friends that could teleport or levitate to stop arrows. Healing magic isn't really called out in the show, but Twilight was able to restore her discorded friends, so that might exist too.
Again, not saying it couldn't be done, simply that "bad things happen" is harder to do in the pony setting than first meets the eye and I think a lot of the so-called "grimdark" authors forget about that.
The "love and friendship as physical properties" is often forgotten ate. It's entirely possible to purposefully not include these ideas, and that's fine. I just he malky when people insist their depiction is canonical and that friendship being magic is just fanon.
Quote:
Geez a best pony princess argument? First, the answer is Rose/Kalina.
Dang skippy. I mean, her wings are so pretty!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadly
I suspect Boromir would not be a unicorn, nor would Merry and Pippin, thus no magic. Also whatever they would face instead of orcs might have had wings and/or magic too. If the ponies have access to these things then you can use the same argument for their enemies.
Eh. No, not really. Friendship and love in a fairy tale world very specifically do not benefit bad guys. The only reason they are bad is because they don't have friendship and love in them; if they did why would they be bad guys at all? They could just get along and then respect others and work with them rarer than against them.
Chrysalis Could have solved her problems peaceably, but it wasn't satisfactory. So as a sociopath who considers ponies food, she utterly disregards them. As a selfish creature who craves only adoration and accolades and was willing to torture everyone emotionally and psychologically, and usher in an era of evil. Discord has no concept of ponies as anything but objects. Objects obey his mystic whims, and when those objects object (hahaha) he gets pissy. If any of them, any at all, had enough friendship or love within them to actually benefit from it, then they're behavior woul have been completely different.
A all of these values in the villains is the entire point. That's why Diamond Tiara an Silver Spoon are "villains", because they place their own selfish desires above the supposed friendship which benefits everyone else.
How could any of Sauron's minions, who defected to the side of a Dark God of all things, to murder and pillage for profit, possibly have the friendship/love to counter the Fellowship I the fellowship could derive actual, tangible POWER from their sense of fellowship?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eakin
Or even scarier: "You're in love with me, now stop attacking and help me murder your friends"
That's really not how love works. It's the old "Charm Person" dilemma. "If I charm you and you're now my best friend, you'll kill your old friends won't you?" uh, no. No I wont. I will do my damnedest to see this through on both sides so we can all come to a peaceable solution. And honestly, if one of my friends is definitely in the wrong, and the rest of my friends are trying to set him right, I am TOTALLY going to talk mister "let's murder people" into maybe chilling. I've done it before.
Love, as in Cadance's power, is an increase in pleasantness between two ponies. Love, as in what Cadence had for Shining Armor enough to generate a power boost or what the Three Amigos felt enough to banish windigos, is an energy source rather than mind control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlyGuyMcFly
I'll try to explain the OOC comment.
All settings have a certain flavour. This flavour is not determined by the story being told at any given time, but by the common narrative elements and conceits that underpin the stories told. A setting is like a character, in that it's locales, players and events are it's appearance, the flavour is the setting's personality. A story that doesn't have the setting's flavour is thus "acting" out of character. Equestria without the rosy tint is like a Philip Marlowe story without the noir, Eberron without the pulpy dungeonpunk or the Cthulhu Mythos without the loss of sanity. It looks like the metaphorical duck, but it doesn't walk and quack like it.
That's the rub. We've seen conflict. Racial tensions exploding into violent conflict in Over a Barrel, slavery in A Dog and Pony Show, assault on a civilian population in A Canterlot Wedding. And it's never dark or mature (in the sense being used here). I don't think this is because the show presents a biased sample (so to speak) of Equestria, but rather because that's the way Equestria actually is. Harmony and Friendship are all but physical laws, like much like how Discworld runs on Narrative Causality or Gurren Lagann runs on Rule of Cool, Rule of Funny and Spiral Power.
I agree.
HOWEVER. I do enjoy stories which dot conform to these rules. Deadly's writing, specifically, has been very good, and not show-conforming.
Fillystata was a good story, but it was off from light-hearted pony canon. I think people who want to read a pony story are looking for pony canon, an that's why they ignore dark stuff. If you only read pony stuff for that, it makes sense. Doesn't matter how deliciously dark and grim this awesome steak is, when they ordered the fish. Y'know?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diego Havoc
Spoiler
[color=darkgreen"][REDACTED][/color].
Or maybe a fic, I suppose that would work. *shrug*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kairaven
Early Congratulations on your long and vastly entertaining endeavor Phoe!
This is totally not related to ponies but I wanted to share this video with everyone that popped up in my subscriptions. Please watch to the end.
Now to make up for that I will post something ALWAYS RELATED:
Spoiler
(Always related even when the topic isn't ponies)
That video was amazing. Compelling hardly begins to define it.
__________________
Avapony by Dirtytabs!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes
Finding out that the ennui and cynicism of our times is not, after all, an unavoidable unreverseable fate does kind of throw your world-view off, potentially.
RSS Feeds: 
Re: My Little Pony LI: FE
by Recaiden//
