i'm sorry
i think i missed something
where exactly does it say the dwarves are unarmed?
because honestly, they couldn't have done much better even if they had weapons (which i'm pretty sure they did) because they where just so stupid
for example with the trolls
the dwarves are caught one by one
if they had all bunched together they MIGHT have had a chance, but still trolls are pretty big enemies for some dwarves to habdles.
with the goblins, they where caught in their sleep, again, no chance to really use their weapons... (And then of course they lost their stuff)
so does it even matter if they where armed?
I now have the urge to a Mount Doom made out chocolate ice cream.
Be realistic... it has to be a chocolate fudge cake with chocolate marzipan covering and an interior of chocolate ice cream with an option that has actual cream that pours out of the top when cut to simulate the chocolate volcano erupting...
1. They're dwarves.
2. This is a world setting akin to European medieval times.
3. They're going to be traveling through forests, wilds, and other sparsely populated areas.
4. They're dwarves.
Not being armed with at least mundane weapons is absolutely absurd.
You forgot;
5. They're sober
6. They're dwarves
Never ever try to remove weapons from a bunch of sober dwarves... its much easier if they're blind drunk and even then you're taking chances since only dwarves brew drink that can get them drunk!
I hear wood alcohol is capable of getting them drunk without bankrupting you.
But they don't like drinking it much cuz the name makes it sound like something elves would drink.
“Not a promise, not an oath, or a malediction or a curse,” I said, sounding calm, probably inaudible in the midst of the screaming. “Inevitable. Wasn’t that how she put it? I told them. Warned them.”
-Taylor Hebert. Yes, I'm a proud Skittle.
Bah, no Dwarf is ever sober. Likewise, even if they tried, no Dwarf could ever get so drunk that it wouldn't be able to fight. There are just different levels of drunkenness.
Bah, no Dwarf is ever sober. Likewise, even if they tried, no Dwarf could ever get so drunk that it wouldn't be able to fight. There are just different levels of drunkenness.
Dwarves, like pirates, simply become more proficient as they becomes more intoxicated.
i'm sorry
i think i missed something
where exactly does it say the dwarves are unarmed?
because honestly, they couldn't have done much better even if they had weapons (which i'm pretty sure they did) because they where just so stupid
for example with the trolls
the dwarves are caught one by one
if they had all bunched together they MIGHT have had a chance, but still trolls are pretty big enemies for some dwarves to habdles.
with the goblins, they where caught in their sleep, again, no chance to really use their weapons... (And then of course they lost their stuff)
so does it even matter if they where armed?
The only weapons ever mentioned are the ones recovered from the trolls, the bows given to them by Beorn, or the weapons in the treasure hoarde. This is in a book where the narration explains in more than one place what weapons were and were not taken. This heavily implies that they were not carrying arms at the time of the Unexpected Party.
See, your problem is you assume the dwarves are just packing musical instruments instead of weapons:
Real dwarves understand how to pack sensibly with limited luggage space. You don't pack your instrument or your axe.
I've last read the Hobbit .. probabily about 12-14 years ago.. but I'd think that common sense would mean that just because they weren't mentioned, weapons weren't necessarily left home.
and should I be wrong.. meh.. ancient lore, mythology and fables are full of people who adventure without even a piece of string in their pockets and end up finding the weapons when they need them..
that said, I wonder, had Tolkien thought of rewriting the hobbit to match it's style and setting more to middle-earth as per silmarillion and LOTR, what he would have changed..
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I think I've seen that mentioned, yes. That he had not intended for the Hobbit to be fully compatible with his larger world, and that he later wished it had been more consistent in tone.
“Not a promise, not an oath, or a malediction or a curse,” I said, sounding calm, probably inaudible in the midst of the screaming. “Inevitable. Wasn’t that how she put it? I told them. Warned them.”
-Taylor Hebert. Yes, I'm a proud Skittle.
I think I've seen that mentioned, yes. That he had not intended for the Hobbit to be fully compatible with his larger world, and that he later wished it had been more consistent in tone.
“Not a promise, not an oath, or a malediction or a curse,” I said, sounding calm, probably inaudible in the midst of the screaming. “Inevitable. Wasn’t that how she put it? I told them. Warned them.”
-Taylor Hebert. Yes, I'm a proud Skittle.
that said, I wonder, had Tolkien thought of rewriting the hobbit to match it's style and setting more to middle-earth as per silmarillion and LOTR, what he would have changed..
There was a slight change made, originally. The first editions of the book published had Gollum offer to give Bilbo a present if he won their riddle-game - the Ring. But once it was later established that Gollum's ring was also the One Ring, the Master Ring, etc, the chapter Riddles in the Dark was rewritten so that Gollum simply offers to show Bilbo the way out, and never mentions the Ring. Giving it to someone else isn't something Gollum'd even joke about.
This is explained in-universe by Bilbo originally writing the story that way, so as to cement his ownership of the Ring. After Gandalf pressed him for facts while the wizard searched for the truth, though, Bilbo told the true story and corrected the facts in his book to the 'true' version we have in subsequent prints.
This is explained in-universe by Bilbo originally writing the story that way, so as to cement his ownership of the Ring. After Gandalf pressed him for facts while the wizard searched for the truth, though, Bilbo told the true story and corrected the facts in his book to the 'true' version we have in subsequent prints.
That is one thing I really like about LotR lore. The idea of telling a story and having different versions (because people fib, or embellish, or leave out the embarassing parts) is actually a bit of a theme. Having other characters in the story care about the real version of that story is also an excellent touch.
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If the party wizard can't survive a supersonic dragon made of iron at epic levels it's his own fault really.
The only weapons ever mentioned are the ones recovered from the trolls, the bows given to them by Beorn, or the weapons in the treasure hoarde. This is in a book where the narration explains in more than one place what weapons were and were not taken. This heavily implies that they were not carrying arms at the time of the Unexpected Party.
Another interesting detail is that when Thorin investigates the troll campsite, he "came expecting mischief" but he doesn't bring a weapon. Instead, when he sees the trolls, he runs to the campfire and arms himself with a lit branch from the fire.
I suppose the dwarves could have packed weapons in their ponies' saddlebags (and not bothered to unpack them to investigate the campsite), but it does appear that they weren't armed at the beginning of their journey.
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Re: The Hobbit Film... trilogy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy13a
Another interesting detail is that when Thorin investigates the troll campsite, he "came expecting mischief" but he doesn't bring a weapon. Instead, when he sees the trolls, he runs to the campfire and arms himself with a lit branch from the fire.
I suppose the dwarves could have packed weapons in their ponies' saddlebags (and not bothered to unpack them to investigate the campsite), but it does appear that they weren't armed at the beginning of their journey.
Actually, that would make some sense, since you really wouldn't need to carry weapons around in the Shire, which was just about the safest place in Middle-Earth at the time. So they could have put the majority of their weapons on the ponies, and the one who got the short straw and the majority of their wargear just happened to be one that went into the river just prior to the encounter with the trolls, along with their supplies (it was "mostly food.")
If all Thorin had on him was a knife or something, a burning brand would be better for dealing with the trolls because it'd have a little more reach.
Last edited by Aotrs Commander : 08-22-2012 at 05:32 AM.
Dwarves, like pirates, simply become more proficient as they becomes more intoxicated.
permission to sig?
@Gnoman thank you very much
@eldan didn't he say something in a letter about not liking the style of the hobbit? especially with the substitution of goblins for orcs and the depiction of the elves
and finally on the matter of snoopy, that is a very good point i think though that trolls are thick skinned and maybe a sword wouldn't hurt them as much as fire?
Actually, that would make some sense, since you really wouldn't need to carry weapons around in the Shire, which was just about the safest place in Middle-Earth at the time.
If they had come from the Shire originally, this might be a fair point. But they didn't. They started in their mountain or whatever. And traveled through wild country to get to the Shire in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander
So they could have put the majority of their weapons on the ponies, and the one who got the short straw and the majority of their wargear just happened to be one that went into the river just prior to the encounter with the trolls, along with their supplies (it was "mostly food.")
If the Shire is so safe, maybe it's reasonable to stow their weapons while they're there. But after they'd gotten into wild, untamed lands? First thing they should have done was strap their iron back on. Especially if they'd already been warned that there were freakin' trolls derping around in the area.
And even in civilized areas, it would be reasonable to have a bow or sling ready to knock off any rabbits that cross your path (which a bunch of farmers would certainly appreciate, in both senses of the word) to add to the dry rations in your luggage.
The whole thing seems to me more like Tolkien simply forgot to arm the dwarves in the original tale, and didn't want to retcon weapons in after the manuscript had gone to the editor/publisher.
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Bah, no Dwarf is ever sober. Likewise, even if they tried, no Dwarf could ever get so drunk that it wouldn't be able to fight. There are just different levels of drunkenness.
You realize that Tolkien never wrote that Dwarves were drunk or at all tending to be so. That is a weird random connection with Irish, and influences of the movie.
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@eldan didn't he say something in a letter about not liking the style of the hobbit? especially with the substitution of goblins for orcs and the depiction of the elves
and finally on the matter of snoopy, that is a very good point i think though that trolls are thick skinned and maybe a sword wouldn't hurt them as much as fire?
thats all i got :/
So long as you fix that typo in it, you have my permission.
You realize that Tolkien never wrote that Dwarves were drunk or at all tending to be so. That is a weird random connection with Irish, and influences of the movie.
exactly
dwarves haven't been drunkards for very long
What are you talking about? How the heck do you think Aule kept the Seven Fathers asleep so that Iluvatar can make those prissy elves the first children of Middle Earth?
If they had come from the Shire originally, this might be a fair point. But they didn't. They started in their mountain or whatever. And traveled through wild country to get to the Shire in the first place.
As I understand it , the Dwarves traveled east from the blue mountains near the sea to the Shire, so coming to the Shire should present no more danger and difficulty than traveling from Manchester to London. Every thing is safe and civilized up to Rivendell ... or should be. That's why it's called the "Last Homely House".
Of the 13 dwarves, I believe only Thorin Oakenshield is a confirmed combat veteran, having fought in the Dwarf and Goblin war under the mountain. The orcs of the Misty Mountains in that time period had been wellnigh exterminated. So it could be that the dwarves really believed there journey would be without incident -- which it should, in normal times. Recollect that Bilbo's return home warrants about a paragraph in the book, because what with the goblins killed in the battle of five armies and travelling in the company of Gandalf, Bilbo was safe enough.
Possibly that's what the dwarves were reckoning on: That the goblins had been exterminated or nearly so, while the wizard would see off any problems.
In other words, the dwarves had spent decades if not centuries mining coal under the mountains and had forgotten what the outside world was like. They spent so much time telling each other stories about the mountains that they had no idea what conditions on the ground were really like. It's a failure that could be said of other folk, in fantasy worlds and the real one.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
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that....
well played pendell well played
at the same time
going into a foreign place for the first time, a place that could very well be dangerous
wouldn't YOU bring a weapon?
Or to quote a literary character,"Would you deprive an old man of his walking staff?"
at the same time
going into a foreign place for the first time, a place that could very well be dangerous
wouldn't YOU bring a weapon?
You'd be amazed how many tourists wander around third world hellholes without bodyguards or weapons. I had some friends at church who toddled off to an orphanage in Haiti for an aid mission and there wasn't a weapon among 'em. Their self defense consisted of sticking to known areas and not going places where they weren't welcome. Since we got as many back as went out, it seems to work.
One answer might be: "A weapon! Sure, I brought a weapon. I call it : a wizard".
Tolkien's Dwarves are not Short Klingons. They are craftsman first and foremost, soldiers and warriors as the need arises. Mim in the Silmarrillion was no fighter, and Thror went into Moria UNARMED AND ALONE. They don't quaff ale copiously ( I think Thorin is portrayed as drinking WINE at the dinner party! WINE , for Manwe's sake!), they don't fight at the drop of a hat, and they fight with swords as well as axes. Thorin was buried with a sword, after all.
Also, The dwarvish expedition was invented in Tolkien's imagination a long time before there was such a thing as a D&D adventuring party. Which is presumably why he sent a bunch of level 0 commoners to tackle a dragon. Had the concept of CR existed back then, the first book might be called "Bilbo visits a keep on the borderlands".
It also explains why Tolkien was such a bad DM.
I see it sort of like this:
DM: There's a fire in the distance. What do you do?
Bilbo: I investigate! :rolls a 1:
[several rounds later]
DM: Okay, so you're all prisoners of the trolls and they're going to eat you all. Hand me your character sheets .. um, suddenly Gandalf comes up and turns them all to stone! What luck!
.....
DM: Okay, you're in a mountain pass. What do you do.
Party: We all go to sleep without setting a watch.
DM: Okay. :rolls wandering monster table: you're beset by a party of orcs, who attack you by surprise because everyone was asleep
:One adjudicated commoners vs. orcs fight later:
DM: So now you're all prisoners (again) .. um, Gandalf swoops in and saves the day!
.....
DM: Okay, so you're in the forest and you hear the howl of a wolf. What do you od?
Party: We climb the trees to get away.
DM: Okay, so you climb the trees. Orcs who were to meet the wolves set the trees on fire. Roll up new characters. Um... suddenly the eagles swoop in and save you all!
--------
If this had happened at a convention , Gygax would have staged an intervention. Not just because the party is constantly being sent into inappropriate encounters, not just because the party is badly mismatched (no fighters, 1 absurdly overpowered DMPC wizard, not a cleric in sight, and a bunch of useless NPC commoners who can't do anything but grumble) but because Tolkien never allows the party to take the consequences for their bad decisions. Gandalf Ex Machina and Eagle Ex Machina show up all the time to get the party out of situations. You'd almost think he was DMing for his six year old son and couldn't utterly crush the boy's hopes or something .
Respectfully,
Brian P.
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