"Wait, that didn't work right" - the Dysfunctional Rules Collection

[Dusk Eclipse]

Originally Posted by noparlpf

I hope they scrap the Tome of Magic, rewrite it, and make it work. The concept and flavour were fine, but the mechanics were rubbish.

Binder is pretty solid though and Shadow magic can be useful, though you need to specialize a lot (counterspellers and theurges are the best option IIRC) truenamer OTOH...

[Roguenewb]

I feel like this entire thread could just be summed up in the fact that an entire category of Truenamer abilities were printed without DCs to use, in a class that is all about it's DCs.

[willpell]

Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse

Binder is pretty solid though and Shadow magic can be useful, though you need to specialize a lot (counterspellers and theurges are the best option IIRC) truenamer OTOH...

Speak for yourself. I would love to see Truenamer fixed, even if the result is a still-suboptimal Tier 5. Shadow magic does nothing for me. And if they reprinted TOM I would really, really badly want them to resort the Binder vestiges, putting them in level order rather than alphabetical, so you can find all the vestiges you're allowed to bind in one place (and then do Magic of Incarnum with the soulmelds segregated by class).

[nedz]

Originally Posted by Roguenewb

I feel like this entire thread could just be summed up in the fact that an entire category of Truenamer abilities were printed without DCs to use, in a class that is all about it's DCs.

Yes, the Truename of the Truenamer class is Dysfunctional.

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse

Binder is pretty solid though and Shadow magic can be useful, though you need to specialize a lot (counterspellers and theurges are the best option IIRC) truenamer OTOH...

To be honest I've played a Truenamer (level 16 one-shot) with a medium/low-op group (on a day when the low-op people were there) and I was one of the best in the party.
That said, the class especially and the entire book in general left me fairly disappointed.

[CalistonTB]

Not sure if anyone mentioned this in the previous 30-ish pages of posts, but RAW there is no way to recover your psicrystal if it is destroyed.

[willpell]

It's possible that was intentional, for added drama. It is a part of your mind after all.

[The Glyphstone]

Originally Posted by CalistonTB

Not sure if anyone mentioned this in the previous 30-ish pages of posts, but RAW there is no way to recover your psicrystal if it is destroyed.

Well, you could always Chaos Shuffle your Psicrystal feat away and back again.

Some things, you can't get with RAW. For everything else, there's Mastercheese Chaos Shuffle.

[Venger]

Originally Posted by CalistonTB

Not sure if anyone mentioned this in the previous 30-ish pages of posts, but RAW there is no way to recover your psicrystal if it is destroyed.

good catch. no one has mentioned it.

if I were DMing, I'd let you cast "revive construct" as a 6th, since they already have one for outsider and undead. besides, psionic save game aside, psicrystals are hardly gamebreaking, so killing one off is something of an unneccessary measure

[Eurus]

Originally Posted by The Glyphstone

Well, you could always Chaos Shuffle your Psicrystal feat away and back again.

Some things, you can't get with RAW. For everything else, there's Mastercheese Chaos Shuffle.

Or even mundane retraining on level-up, right?

[Venger]

Originally Posted by Eurus

Or even mundane retraining on level-up, right?

RAW that works too

[Dusk Eclipse]

Originally Posted by willpell

Speak for yourself. I would love to see Truenamer fixed, even if the result is a still-suboptimal Tier 5. Shadow magic does nothing for me. And if they reprinted TOM I would really, really badly want them to resort the Binder vestiges, putting them in level order rather than alphabetical, so you can find all the vestiges you're allowed to bind in one place (and then do Magic of Incarnum with the soulmelds segregated by class).

I would love to see a Truenamer rework in the printed version; but frankly I doubt it. Why would they spend money and/or time when they can simply send the file to the printers? It would take minutes at most. And I meant that as written Truenamer is disappointing.

Originally Posted by noparlpf

To be honest I've played a Truenamer (level 16 one-shot) with a medium/low-op group (on a day when the low-op people were there) and I was one of the best in the party.
That said, the class especially and the entire book in general left me fairly disappointed.

I can't talk about my own experience as I've never played a Truenamer and only have to go by Zaqs "Handbook" and other peoples account. I know it can be played by RAW; but from my understanding you have to optimize more than the norm to simply work, sure with an Item Familiar, skill focus (Truenaming) an amulet of the silver tongue +10 and a custom Truenamin Item you can and probably will reach all the DC's; but it is still far more investment to simply use your class features as opposed to a charger who sinks similar resources (2 feats, let's say Power Attack and Leap Attack, less skill ranks (the jump check to activate Leap Attack is reasonable easy, I think about 20) a valorous weapon ("equivalent to the Truenaming Item) and some form of pounce. More ore less same investment; but much more effective at his chosen style.

That is why I think the Truenamer disappoints.

[noparlpf]

Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse

I would love to see a Truenamer rework in the printed version; but frankly I doubt it. Why would they spend money and/or time when they can simply send the file to the printers? It would take minutes at most. And I meant that as written Truenamer is disappointing.



I can't talk about my own experience as I've never played a Truenamer and only have to go by Zaqs "Handbook" and other peoples account. I know it can be played by RAW; but from my understanding you have to optimize more than the norm to simply work, sure with an Item Familiar, skill focus (Truenaming) an amulet of the silver tongue +10 and a custom Truenamin Item you can and probably will reach all the DC's; but it is still far more investment to simply use your class features as opposed to a charger who sinks similar resources (2 feats, let's say Power Attack and Leap Attack, less skill ranks (the jump check to activate Leap Attack is reasonable easy, I think about 20) a valorous weapon ("equivalent to the Truenaming Item) and some form of pounce. More ore less same investment; but much more effective at his chosen style.

That is why I think the Truenamer disappoints.

Of course. The amount of optimisation needed to get the Truenamer on par with tier five classes is just sad.
And I think Leap Attack is a DC 10 jump check. Yeah, just checked, it's a 10' jump. So because you're already charging, you'll often have the running start needed to make it a DC 10 jump.

[Venger]

Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse

(mentions of leap attack)

it is actually not a flat DC. you must jump at least 10 feet (if you jump with at least a 20 foot running start, then the DC is equal to the distance traveled (for a 10 foot jump, it's 10 ) but it actually is equal to the horizontal distance traveled

leap attack, despite its use with the traditional vanilla ubercharger becomes the most fun (in my opinion) when combined with a couple of things:

monk levels
drunken master
boosts to movement speed

drunken master's stagger ability lets you change directions in a charge. leap attack lets you combine a charge with a jump. jump checks are modified by what your movement speed is (+4 for every 10 feet it is above 30)

this is the most fun with the 3.0 drunken master from sword and fist since its movement speed goes up the most (plus full BA and less lameness)

if you charge with say a 60 foot movement speed, you have a range of 120 feet. you can move 20 feet to get a running start, jump with a bonus of at least +12 from movement (and then 8 ranks from leap attack)

combine this with power attack (of course), imp bull rush, and shock trooper for heedless charge to actually hit, domino rush to turn your enemies into bowling pins, and directional bullrush to completely control the battlefield. with your range, you can have a pretty huge degree of battlefield control as a melee character, and that's pretty awesome.

it also helps get around a traditional problem for chargers (mobility, difficult terrain, relatively short range, etc)

[TypoNinja]

Well, I've noticed recently that while there is a penalty for going to sleep in your armor, there isn't one for just not going to sleep. Ever.

Unless you are a caster, there appears to be no reason to ever sleep, and even casters spell preparation description says "rest" and not sleep. So them too arguably.

[Venger]

Originally Posted by TypoNinja

Well, I've noticed recently that while there is a penalty for going to sleep in your armor, there isn't one for just not going to sleep. Ever.

Unless you are a caster, there appears to be no reason to ever sleep, and even casters spell preparation description says "rest" and not sleep. So them too arguably.

correct indeed.

similarly, a bigger than medium size carries a penalty to hide, but not to MS.

[TypoNinja]

Originally Posted by Venger

correct indeed.

similarly, a bigger than medium size carries a penalty to hide, but not to MS.

Eh, that one I could see, bigger means more of you to hide, but you can still be graceful. For example I have no problems picturing a Large tiger having no issues moving silently, compared to even a small sized humanoid.

ps. We ended up adopting the forced march rules for staying awake.

[willpell]

Originally Posted by Venger

similarly, a bigger than medium size carries a penalty to hide, but not to MS.

Size doesn't affect a lot of checks that it probably should.
* Survival - Need more food each day.
* Open Lock - Fat fingers.
* Ride - Your poor horse.
* Sleight of Hand - Same deal as Hide, your size makes you more obvious.
* Balance - Picture a giant standing on a branch.
* Escape Artist - This one could go either way, there's more of you to tie but it's probably more difficult to wiggle about.

[Water_Bear]

Originally Posted by willpell

* Open Lock - Fat fingers.

I just got the image of a giant with the telephone wand from the Simpsons.

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by willpell

Size doesn't affect a lot of checks that it probably should.
* Survival - Need more food each day.

Depends entirely on the creature's metabolism.

* Open Lock - Fat fingers.

You don't need fingers to use Open Lock.

* Ride - Your poor horse.

You can't ride an improperly sized mount.

* Sleight of Hand - Same deal as Hide, your size makes you more obvious.

What? Sleight of Hand doesn't let you hide, just determine if you're skillful enough to go quickly through someone's pockets. Your size has nothing to do with that.

* Balance - Picture a giant standing on a branch.

Why would a larger creature have a worse sense of balance?

* Escape Artist - This one could go either way, there's more of you to tie but it's probably more difficult to wiggle about.

Why is it more difficult to wiggle about for a larger creature, exactly?

[Ksheep]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

Why would a larger creature have a worse sense of balance?

According to the Balance skill, it has a DC 15 check to walk across something 2-6 inches wide. It doesn't matter if your foot is half an inch wide or 5 feet wide, it's a DC 15 check. Less than 2 inch wide is DC 20, while 7-12 inches is DC 10.

[Antonok]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

What? Sleight of Hand doesn't let you hide, just determine if you're skillful enough to go quickly through someone's pockets. Your size has nothing to do with that.

I have a hard time imagining a giant easily rummaging through a medium sized creature's pockets.

Giant-sized hands and all

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by Antonok

I have a hard time imagining a giant easily rummaging through a medium sized creature's pockets.

Giant-sized hands and all

They could do it using chopsticks.

[Dimers]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart

They could do it using chopsticks.

Circumstance penalty for using inappropriate or inadequate tools. -2 or worse, I'd say. Fingers so big that each one takes up the entire mouth of a pouch? Yeah, I'd say that's a size penalty to a pickpocket attempt.

Heck, just in terms of reaction time alone, a larger creature is at a disadvantage if magic isn't involved.

[Flickerdart]

Originally Posted by Dimers

Heck, just in terms of reaction time alone, a larger creature is at a disadvantage if magic isn't involved.

Which is represented by many Large creatures having crummy Dexterity scores already.

[Quellian-dyrae]

On the flip side, I'd figure being Large would probably help sleight of hand checks to palm or conceal items (assuming the item isn't, itself, a large item of course).

[nedz]

Or stealing things from a Huge creature, whose belt a little halfling might not even be able to reach.

[The Glyphstone]

When giants pickpocket halflings, they don't pick the halfling's pockets, they just pickpocket the entire halfling.

[Eurus]

Did someone mention Elder Brains having surprisingly decent Disguise checks? Good enough to fool your average commoner, anyway.

[Amidus Drexel]

Originally Posted by Eurus

Did someone mention Elder Brains having surprisingly decent Disguise checks? Good enough to fool your average commoner, anyway.

Hey, a little makeup goes a long way, especially if you're a giant brain with tentacles.