Interesting comic. I'm going to avoid the current discussion about suspension of disbelief, and just note that I found the drow innuendo fairly amusing and good as a joke.
I really liked some of the effects in this comic. the image of the spinning axe, the way that Nale clearly looks like a sack of potatoes draped over a shoulder, even in stick art, and Roy's various sword poses have all been really good. By the way, I wonder if the whumwhumwhum sound effect implies that the axe is magically thrumming in some way, or if it's just supposed to be a spinning sound?
I'm not sure how much healing Tarquin has access to at the moment. Malack isn't with them. While I suspect Tarquin has plenty of healing potions or effects for himself, I'm not so sure that he'll share them with Nale, as opposed to allowing events to continue and waking Nale up later.
I also imagine that Malack alone meeting the order would not end up in a fight. He would chat with Durkon, explain that he doesn't care about what the rest of the Linear Guild is doing and has no desire to fight the Order, and probably part ways amicably.
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Anarion's right on the money here.
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Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Anarion Mori?
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You just highlandered an entire city block into a glass-filled storm by road-runnering down it in your underwear.
I know, right? And that's exactly my point, the fact that Tarquin happened to have just the perfect ability at hand to deal with a deafened drow wizard, but which is rendered useless by a smoke cl- oh nevermind, lucky! It just went off.
There will always be "explanations" behind a DE, checkov's gun or whatever other plot tool, the point here is not that what happened is unbelievable or impossible, but that it's so overly convenient that it reaches the point of breaking my suspension of disbelief.
I'm starting to think that what I said is being interpreted in whatever way fits the argument currently being made.
The point I made was twofold. The first is that Tarquin didn't pull sign language out of nwohere, it simply wasn't usable until the smoke cleared. The second point I made was that Tarquin was actually able to stick it out and see what happened until the smoke cleared and he no longer had concealment. As evidenced by how he stuck it out and waited to see what happened until the smoke cleared.
The smoke clearing didn't coincide conveniently with Tarquin's retreat. The smoke clearing was the reason Tarquin retreated in the first place. Trying to state that the plot is defending Tarquin by having smoke clear when he wants to escape is a misinterpretation of what was seen in my opinion, both as a reader and as someone who's imagined the scenario playing out from Tarquin's perspective.
Examine the scenario Tarquin is dealing with when the smoke is blocking Haley's shots and the enemy has no clear targest to charge. Then consider it once concealment clears and Tarquin, plus an injured, deafened Drow Wizard remain the only ones standing. The smoke clearing was bad. It was time to leave.
Not only that, but I'd like to get a good look at my enemy before I retreat, to better take stock of what just happened and what comparative damages were.
Tarquin used sign language at that time because it was now an option, and it was an option because he was going to wait for smoke to clear before he retreated anyways. Had the smoke not cleared, I doubt he would have Teleported out, because the need would not have been as drastic as it was, and he also wouldn't have used Sign, because he couldn't.
I know, right? And that's exactly my point, the fact that Tarquin happened to have just the perfect ability at hand to deal with a deafened drow wizard, but which is rendered useless by a smoke cl- oh nevermind, lucky! It just went off.
The sign language wouldn't've been affected by the smoke cloud, at least not after the first round or so. Close up, they've been able to see each other just fine for a few strips now.
To those who say that the Order didn't gain anything
To those who say that the Order didn't gain anything:
Tarquin lost his axe before he teleported out. What if his name is written on it ("To Tarquin with love from [name of wife]"). Then they will know who is behind the mask.
Does Tarquin have any weakness? What could be a potential weakness is that he cares a lot about Elan. That could be the beginning of a new plan.
I also imagine that Malack alone meeting the order would not end up in a fight. He would chat with Durkon, explain that he doesn't care about what the rest of the Linear Guild is doing and has no desire to fight the Order, and probably part ways amicably.
I don't think Malack has much interest in fighting the Order, but it won't be that simple. I can't see them just letting him go like that. The other possibility is that Malack meets up with Vaarsuvius, who doesn't seem in the mood to fight either.
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It is beautifully drawn, but how many revolutions does Tarquin's axe make in the air? The four 'whumm's would seem to indicate four full revolutions, but it only appears to be about 1 1/3?
And once again we see why wizards are considered so ridiculously overpowered in 3e D&D! All it takes is one spell to completely negate an entire ambush.
And once again we see why wizards are considered so ridiculously overpowered in 3e D&D! All it takes is one spell to completely negate an entire ambush.
Question is: do they still get the experience points?
I blame myself for being so very annoyed by random people on the internet being so angry about Tarquin finding oh-so-"convenient"-"deus ex machinistic" ways to resolve this situation.. And their subtle sarcasm is so smart, too.
It'd be very disappointing, if it wasn't for the (vast?) majority of this community - which is pretty neutral and objective.
Love,
Ray
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I don't think Malack has much interest in fighting the Order, but it won't be that simple. I can't see them just letting him go like that. The other possibility is that Malack meets up with Vaarsuvius, who doesn't seem in the mood to fight either.
Why wouldn't the Order let Malack go? He has yet to make an overt move against them, or to be shown as an ally of someone who has. There may be questions about his presence in the pyramid, but that can be explained away as a pursuit of Nale.
Why wouldn't the Order let Malack go? He has yet to make an overt move against them, or to be shown as an ally of someone who has. There may be questions about his presence in the pyramid, but that can be explained away as a pursuit of Nale.
Haley has always been suspicious of Malack and Tarquin. They may not jump to the conclusion that Malack's in cahoots with Nale, but it's reasonable to assume that Tarquin has taken interest in whatever the Order and Guild are after.
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Originally Posted by martianmister
Mongolian hordes. Lots of lots of mongolian hordes. With a mongolian warrior chief. They will conquer Gobbotopia and rename it as Mongolitopia. Because that makes so much sense.
~R.I.P. Thog (possibly) and Durkon Thundershield (eventually)~
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Originally Posted by martianmister
Mongolian hordes. Lots of lots of mongolian hordes. With a mongolian warrior chief. They will conquer Gobbotopia and rename it as Mongolitopia. Because that makes so much sense.
So again, that the smoke has been noticeably decreasing over the last two strips and is very noticeably decreasing in almost every panel in the current strip is breaking your suspension of disbelief?
No, and that's not what I'm saying.
What breaks my suspension of disbelief is the sheer coincidental luck of many different things happening (or being revealed) all the right time, perfectly fitting for that exact situation... not the single individual things.
Try reading the meaning behind the words, rather than the words alone.
The Axe will probably have some returning device. It's Tarquin we are talking about.
Well, what now? Now that Tarquin has used the Linear Gild as a probe to test the Order, is it time for him to gather his gang and work for real on the good guys?
The Axe will probably have some returning device. It's Tarquin we are talking about.
Well, what now? Now that Tarquin has used the Linear Gild as a probe to test the Order, is it time for him to gather his gang and work for real on the good guys?
What breaks my suspension of disbelief is the sheer coincidental luck of many different things happening (or being revealed) all the right time, perfectly fitting for that exact situation... not the single individual things.
Try reading the meaning behind the words, rather than the words alone.
I've got to respect your persistence. But it is more than adequately explained by the comic itself. The key line is "You're too young to remember, but [Drow sign language] was quite the fad in its day." Drow sign language is a real D&D thing, not something Rich made up. It really was a fad back in the day (I confess to being old enough to remember), much like drow themselves.
Tarquin could have used any number of other ways to signal "let's get out of here." Tarquin chose drow sign language because it was showy and made him look cool. Rich chose drow sign language because it was funny.
Up until now, Roy (nor any on his team) have mentioned the off-switch for teleport. Its use before that would seem contrived to anyone that didn't play games like D&D, since it is a contrivance. Still, once its established that the option exists and is available to the Order, its use is much easier to justify.
V has used Dimensional Anchor on multiple occasions. The only reason that Durkon didn't have it prepared is because V does, so they "optimized" by comparing spell slots and avoiding duplication, thus ensuring that they had a wider range of spells available.
I wondered about that too. "Kobold" I can understand. Drow should have the sign for them. But accountant? Given as the most plausable purpose of the language seems to be the silent communication before the battle, how many times before in Drow history the word "accountant" came up in pre-combat chat?
Spoken like someone who has never been on a Drow corporate retreat. Let's just say they do more than drop you on purpose during the trust fall.
V has used Dimensional Anchor on multiple occasions. The only reason that Durkon didn't have it prepared is because V does, so they "optimized" by comparing spell slots and avoiding duplication, thus ensuring that they had a wider range of spells available.
Really, with the amount of times V's gone AWOL, one would think that either Durkon or Elan or Roy would have begun to plan around her absence. I won't be disappointed, exactly, if they don't learn from this experience, but I won't be surprised either.
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And remember, whoever captures the fox and brings it under their control first gains ownership and accompanying property rights over the wild beast.
I'm just posting to mention that I don't find Tarquin's knowledge of drow sign language in any way a strain on my suspension of disbelief. In fact, quite the opposite: Tarquin has had decades to plan and prepare for significant battles. It's not merely completely reasonable for him to have a vast array of weapons, powers, tools and tricks at his disposal - it'd be downright preposterous for him to not.
To put it another way - consider what your D&D character would do in their spare time if they were in Tarquin's position - a lot of political scheming and noncombat encounters, months or years going by without a major battle, but the constant assurance of more fighting down the road. (Plus, the resources of an entire empire at your disposal.) If you're at all like me, you'd spend your extra time building dozens of contingency plans, crafting/buying really good, multipurpose magic items, and generally making sure you're prepared for whatever the world will throw at you next.
Last edited by Chess Tyrant : 08-31-2012 at 09:34 PM.
Coming from the perspective of someone not so familiar with DnD minutiae, I must say the DSW line had me going "Really?" until I saw people in here explaining it. Makes much more sense now.
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I've got to respect your persistence. But it is more than adequately explained by the comic itself. The key line is "You're too young to remember, but [Drow sign language] was quite the fad in its day." Drow sign language is a real D&D thing, not something Rich made up. It really was a fad back in the day (I confess to being old enough to remember), much like drow themselves.
So, after having just said that it's not the individual things themselves that feel wrong, but the overall coincidence of all of them right then when they were most needed, and yet again you pick and explain one of those to me?
Even after having already said this,
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Originally Posted by Mantine
There will always be "explanations" behind a DE, checkov's gun or whatever other plot tool, the point here is not that what happened is unbelievable or impossible, but that it's so overly convenient that it reaches the point of breaking my suspension of disbelief.
Which pretty clearly states how anything can be explained some way or the other, but that doesn't automatically make it believable and plausible?
Tl;dr What do I care if it's "adequately explained by the comic itself"?
You could give me Xykon blasted to bits by the Enterprise and spend one month's worth of strips to explain how Kirk got there... but that doesn't mean I would buy it.
Which pretty clearly states how anything can be explained some way or the other, but that doesn't automatically make it believable and plausible?
Again, having a sound explanation for something, by definition, makes it plausible. If it was orc sign language, a pure contrivance of plot convenience, I would be agreeing with you. But it is not. It is a concrete reference to something that exists both in the OOTSverse and RL.
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Originally Posted by Mantine
Tl;dr What do I care if it's "adequately explained by the comic itself"?
You could give me Xykon blasted to bits by the Enterprise and spend one month's worth of strips to explain how Kirk got there... but that doesn't mean I would buy it.
Which is why I said believable is subjective. You can choose to believe something regardless of the amount of evidence for or against it.
So, after having just said that it's not the individual things themselves that feel wrong, but the overall coincidence of all of them right then when they were most needed, and yet again you pick and explain one of those to me?
Even after having already said this,
Which pretty clearly states how anything can be explained some way or the other, but that doesn't automatically make it believable and plausible?
Tl;dr What do I care if it's "adequately explained by the comic itself"?
You could give me Xykon blasted to bits by the Enterprise and spend one month's worth of strips to explain how Kirk got there... but that doesn't mean I would buy it.
No, I think a month's worth of clear and coherent strips would get anyone to buy that the enterprise really did just blow up Xykon. Whether or not it may be "believable" isn't the issue... the real issue is how satisfying the story is.
But speaking of the latest "ass pull" by Tarquin, I have already mentioned how I believe closer ties to the drow were hinted when he said he was sending them gift baskets due to him knowing about Drizz't impersonating an elf ambassador.
Last edited by WindStruck : 08-31-2012 at 10:37 PM.
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Re: OOTS #862 - The Discussion Thread
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