D&D 3e/3.5e/d20The forum for conversations specifically related to the rules and procedures of Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition, 3.5 Edition, or any fantasy game using the d20 system or a variant thereof (commercially published or not).
Wrong again. RAW, 3.0 material is legal in 3.5 as long as it hasn't been updated.
Also, what am I, chopped liver? I see no response to my previous post.
Kelb let's not pretend he's got one. He'll accuse you of quoting fluff and continue on.
Spoiler
In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process. It is possible to extinguish the candle simply by blowing it out, so users often place it in a lantern to protect it from drafts and the like. Doing this doesn’t interfere with its magical properties.
Don't see where it says specifically what caster level the gate is cast as, which means it would default to yours, which at level 1 isn't enough to control much. Other items specify that they cast at whichever level.
OK, here's the deal. Most of the trick works, although the use of Efreeti is needlessly dangerous.
What's entirely unclear, though, is how to unambiguously justify ignoring all crafting prerequisites and limits on wish to create a custom item. If those three bolded problems can be accounted for reasonably, I think we can safely say the whole sequence is viable for TO. Lacking that, however... not so much.
Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTwerewolf
Don't see where it says specifically what caster level the gate is cast as, which means it would default to yours, which at level 1 isn't enough to control much. Other items specify that they cast at whichever level.
The item has CL 17th listed in its stat block; presumably that's what it's there for.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Bear
That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hamishspence
"Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in · Use of gray may indicate nitpicking · Green is sincerity · "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid"
I often hop into threads for just one thing
Kelb let's not pretend he's got one. He'll accuse you of quoting fluff and continue on.
Spoiler
In addition, burning a candle also allows the owner to cast a gate spell, the respondent being of the same alignment as the candle, but the taper is immediately consumed in the process. It is possible to extinguish the candle simply by blowing it out, so users often place it in a lantern to protect it from drafts and the like. Doing this doesn’t interfere with its magical properties.
Don't see where it says specifically what caster level the gate is cast as, which means it would default to yours, which at level 1 isn't enough to control much. Other items specify that they cast at whichever level.
........... What?
I said he was dead wrong on that point.
Edit: or is that in response to my other post?
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Praise I've received
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell
Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTwerewolf
[...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
A major difference between Pun-Pun and this trick is that Pun-Pun can gain epic spells and this can't. This is because epic spells cannot be stored in items.
Without epic spells to protect you, no ability you store in your super-stick will be strong enough. You will finish imbuing it with every non-epic ability known to mankind and it will be suddenly gone from your grasp once a deity or other significant figure decides to relieve you of it. You also cannot turn your super-staff into an artifact, because that would count as "creating an artifact" which you cannot do via Wish or any other non-deity method.
I'm not sure why I'm getting involved, but honestly, if you think that it works this way then your method is far far too roundabout. Using the same logic as your "'add powers' means 'I can define new ones'" step, just use the spell research system (not the epic spell research system, just the regular one) to create a cantrip that does anything.
The spell research system says 'come up with a spell, run it past the DM, and he will okay it or not'. Under your permissive DM assumption there is no reason you could not use this to make a cantrip that does anything. This is far more general than the assumption that 'powers' means something other than the specific indexed set of powers that already exist in the system.
However, things like that are usually excluded from TO because they depend in some way on the DM actually making a decision, whereas TO generally takes place in a DM-less environment. Or to put it another way, if you insist that the DM must 'choose an xp cost for what you ask for', you're already requiring the existence of an interacting DM, as opposed to the higher standard of things that work completely independently of the DM.
There are several posters in this thread that could use a chill pill as their posts are bordering on the personal attack territory.
One of the things assumed in TO (AFAIK) is that anything related to roleplaying just doesn't happen unless directed by the optimizer in question. So, yes if he attacks a creature it will defend itself, but godly interference is a no-no. Sorry if that bit is old news, but it needed to be said.
Second, gate specifically states the called creature is controlled if its HD is no more than twice your caster level, so no bickering there. (Also the candle is CL 17 according to its stat block, so that means up to 34 hd)
That's really all the input I have. I have no opinion on the inner workings of the rest of this trick.
The second part of my post was in response to him, not you. I was in full support of what you said.
Then again bringing kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing mike tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
A major difference between Pun-Pun and this trick is that Pun-Pun can gain epic spells and this can't. This is because epic spells cannot be stored in items.
Without epic spells to protect you, no ability you store in your super-stick will be strong enough. You will finish imbuing it with every non-epic ability known to mankind and it will be suddenly gone from your grasp once a deity or other significant figure decides to relieve you of it. You also cannot turn your super-staff into an artifact, because that would count as "creating an artifact" which you cannot do via Wish or any other non-deity method.
Quote:
Metamagic, Items, and Epic Spells
Metamagic feats and other epic feats that manipulate normal spells cannot be used with epic spells.
A character can’t craft a magic item that casts an epic spell, regardless of whether the item is activated with spell completion, a spell trigger, a command word, or is use-activated. Only major artifacts, which are beyond the means of even epic characters to create, can possibly contain magic of this power.
The saving throw against a character’s epic spell has a DC of 20 + the character’s relevant ability score modifier. It’s possible to develop epic spells that have even higher DCs, however, by applying the appropriate factor.
But that's not important. What's important is that my item is called the I win stick.
Ability: At will, no action required, you may permanently gain any number of abilities.
I gain the following abilities among many others:
Lolwut (Ex)
You may cast any epic spell even when it isn't your turn and without any of the components.
Roflcopter (Ex)
You gain infinite divine rank and may use any divine ability at will.
Trollface (Ex)
You win the game.
EDIT: I admit I have to ask him to assign an XP amount but that's really all I have to worry about and given that he can't assign anything I can't work with it's not really a problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanoblack
There are several posters in this thread that could use a chill pill as their posts are bordering on the personal attack territory.
One of the things assumed in TO (AFAIK) is that anything related to roleplaying just doesn't happen unless directed by the optimizer in question. So, yes if he attacks a creature it will defend itself, but godly interference is a no-no. Sorry if that bit is old news, but it needed to be said.
Second, gate specifically states the called creature is controlled if its HD is no more than twice your caster level, so no bickering there. (Also the candle is CL 17 according to its stat block, so that means up to 34 hd)
That's really all the input I have. I have no opinion on the inner workings of the rest of this trick.
EDIT: I admit I have to ask him to assign an XP amount but that's really all I have to worry about and given that he can't assign anything I can't work with it's not really a problem.
My question would be, though, if something in the rules said 'This feat allows you to qualify for any class', would you interpret that to mean that it also gives you the ability to invent new classes and take them?
The second part of my post was in response to him, not you. I was in full support of what you said.
Then again bringing kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing mike tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
O_o I had no idea I had earned such a reputation.
May I quote you?
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Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell
Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTwerewolf
[...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
My question would be, though, if something in the rules said 'This feat allows you to qualify for any class', would you interpret that to mean that it also gives you the ability to invent new classes and take them?
You'd be able to take certain classes like barbarian while being lawful. Though in a vacuum it's not inconceivable that you could do that. Normally class creation is approved or not by a DM but when your DM doesn't prevent you it's completely possible as you now have gained access to class creation rules without restrictions due to the feat not being specific about the rest.
Though I'd like to note something: My quoted example of pun pun shows creation of a magic item without prerequisites. People swore that it was different and I showed it to be the same. If you're going to go against mine you're going against that too.
You may. You seem to pretty much end any argument over RAW or RAI.
Thank you.
__________________
I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell
Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTwerewolf
[...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
But that's not important. What's important is that my item is called the I win stick.
Ability: At will, no action required, you may permanently gain any number of abilities.
By tying all your powers to an item, however, you invoke the necessary intervention of a DM - because the magic item guidelines clearly state that judgment is required to finally price a magic item. TO doesn't work by relying on an infinitely-lenient DM - it works by relying on an absent one. Pun-Pun works by abusing listed abilities (e.g. Manipulate Form) not by inventing new ones like your Roflcopter above.
In short, the major difference between the two:
- Pun-Pun requires a DM to stop.
- Yours requires a DM to start.
By tying all your powers to an item, however, you invoke the necessary intervention of a DM - because the magic item guidelines clearly state that judgment is required to finally price a magic item. TO doesn't work by relying on an infinitely-lenient DM - it works by relying on an absent one. Pun-Pun works by abusing listed abilities (e.g. Manipulate Form) not by inventing new ones like your Roflcopter above.
In short, the major difference between the two:
- Pun-Pun requires a DM to stop.
- Yours requires a DM to start.
Quote:
Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
Pun-Pun requires candle of invocation created by a wish. That obviously ignores prerequisites. I can ignore prerequisites.
The deity can craft magic arms and armor, staffs, wands, wondrous items, rings, and scrolls that exceed the normal limits for such items
Suggested Portfolio Elements
Crafts, knowledge, magic.
I choose to ignore the above quote and all other necessary prerequisites.
I create an item of my choice by ignoring all prerequisites other than XP which doesn't matter. I get exactly what I want with no problems.
What does do you guys say about Wish creating epic magic items? Cause the spell description says create magic item not create epic magic item.
Actually, by the rules of the metamagic thinger he posted, this item can't be wished for since that would make it an 'artifact' since only artifacts can contain magic of the power that he wants to use. Gotta love market price which this kind of power would definitely drive into epic-level gaming which is not normally available.
@nanoblock: Gate has language beyond 'I control' that interacts with the very control method it invokes. The solar targeted by his 'too general' gate can be a deity who by the rules refuses. Also, he only gets one wish attempt per day. Which might/will get wasted for the day due to the gated solar ( that he manages to gate through at some point in time ). Main part being, he is being 'too general'.
Last edited by animewatcha : 09-16-2012 at 11:29 PM.
What does do you guys say about Wish creating epic magic items? Cause the spell description says create magic item not create epic magic item.
Actually, by the rules of the metamagic thinger he posted, this item can't be wished for since that would make it an 'artifact' since only artifacts can contain magic of the power that he wants to use. Gotta love market price which this kind of power would definitely drive into epic-level gaming which is normally available.
@nanoblock: Gate has language beyond 'I control' that interacts with the very control method it invokes. The solar targeted by his 'too general' gate can be a deity who by the rules refuses. Also, he only gets one wish attempt per day. Which might/will get wasted for the day due to the gated solar ( that he manages to gate through at some point in time ). Main part being, he is being 'too general'.
Pun-Pun requires candle of invocation created by a wish. That obviously ignores prerequisites. I can ignore prerequisites.
Candle of Invocation is a magic item in the DMG whether there is a DM or not. Your staff of i-win with multiple custom abilities is not, therefore you need a DM to create it for you.
See my above points. Only major artifacts can contain that kind of power that you want to make. Artifacts are not doable via wish. There is other specific things within gate and wish and sterf that need to be followable aside from the ignoring of crafting prereqs. That and your request is still 'too general'. By RAW, you are SOL.
all he is gating is 'a solar'. He is wishing for the making of something 'that can do all this'. Too generally in the wishing and RAW and he can't even get to use his I win Stick.
Last edited by animewatcha : 09-16-2012 at 11:43 PM.
@nanoblack: Gate has language beyond 'I control' that interacts with the very control method it invokes. The solar targeted by his 'too general' gate can be a deity who by the rules refuses. Also, he only gets one wish attempt per day. Which might/will get wasted for the day due to the gated solar ( that he manages to gate through at some point in time ). Main part being, he is being 'too general'.
Pertinent bit in the spoiler below.
Spoiler
Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).
If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.
Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.
You're going to have to be more specific as to what you mean by "control methods". Another thing about TO is spells like these are assumed to call the most average and generic specimen of whatever the spell allows. For it to bring anything else would be DM fiat and is excluded from these thought exercises for good reason.
And yes, he only would get one wish, but he only needs one to get his magic item. Which after re-reading the remainder of the OP, I will have to side with Psyren as he seems to have a firm grasp of the rules.
Where the custom magic item guidelines come into this argument can be pretty ambiguous, but I don't believe "grant any ability" is located anywhere within those guidelines. There is the precedent of items like ring of evasion for turning class features into items, but I would have to say that unless there exists an item that grants that ability, you would not be able to use it in this situation even with the wish spell.
Pun-Pun requires candle of invocation created by a wish. That obviously ignores prerequisites. I can ignore prerequisites.
I choose to ignore the above quote and all other necessary prerequisites.
I create an item of my choice by ignoring all prerequisites other than XP which doesn't matter. I get exactly what I want with no problems.
Wish creating the candle doesn't necessarily ignore all the prereq's of creating the candle of invocation. It only definitely ignores the craft wondrous item feat, which pun pun has room for before he begins that journey, if I'm not mistaken. Assuming he doesn't get the wish from a creature with the feat. It's been a while since I last looked at pun pun in detail.
I explained how all that is true in my previous post, which you continue to ignore. I would appreciate it if you did not continue to ignore me.
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Praise I've received
Spoiler
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell
Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTwerewolf
[...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
Creating the candle doesn't necessarily ignore all the prereq's of creating the candle of invocation. It only definitely ignores the craft wondrous item feat, which pun pun has room for before he begins that journey, if I'm not mistaken. Assuming he doesn't get the wish from a creature with the feat. It's been a while since I last looked at pun pun in detail.
I explained how all that is true in my previous post, which you continue to ignore. I would appreciate it if you did not continue to ignore me.
Quote:
Craft Wondrous Item [Item Creation]
Prerequisite
Caster level 3rd.
Pun pun is a 1st level character.
Now for the following:
Because a candle of invocation can be created without the necessary caster level, feats, and other requirements (that efreeti doesn't have them either) I assume NO requirements other than XP though I may benefit from all of them as I ignore them.
The deity can craft magic arms and armor, staffs, wands, wondrous items, rings, and scrolls that exceed the normal limits for such items
Suggested Portfolio Elements
Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).
If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.
A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.
If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.
Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.
You're going to have to be more specific as to what you mean by "control methods". Another thing about TO is spells like these are assumed to call the most average and generic specimen of whatever the spell allows. For it to bring anything else would be DM fiat and is excluded from these thought exercises for good reason.
And yes, he only would get one wish, but he only needs one to get his magic item. Which after re-reading the remainder of the OP, I will have to side with Psyren as he seems to have a firm grasp of the rules.
Where the custom magic item guidelines come into this argument can be pretty ambiguous, but I don't believe "grant any ability" is located anywhere within those guidelines. There is the precedent of items like ring of evasion for turning class features into items, but I would have to say that unless there exists an item that grants that ability, you would not be able to use it in this situation even with the wish spell.
For the gate spell, creating the magic item of 'this is by RAW a major artifact of this level of power' is a more involved service ( aka further down the spell as far as the control method ) as well as something not doable by wish as ( major or not ) artifacts aren't doable via wish.
If this were TO, then I can see what you mean. However, point to me where near the start of this thread when he wanted this to be about TO and not 'by RAW, what rules can keep this from me'. By Raw, his gate methoding and wish methoding are 'too general' so he winds up screwed in the end. His DM is 'a computer' so he need to be 'less general' to get what he wants with no problems. Otherwise, by RAW and as per 'the computer', he gets screwed.
This thread went from mental exercise of 'By RAW, prevent this' to actually being prevented by RAW with citations and sterf to 'Oh crap. I can't win. I'm just gonna conveniently ignore any evidence against me.'
Last edited by animewatcha : 09-17-2012 at 12:09 AM.
For the gate spell, creating the magic item of 'this is by RAW a major artifact of this level of power' is a more involved service ( aka further down the spell as far as the control method ) as well as something not doable by wish as ( major or not ) artifacts aren't doable via wish.
If this were TO, then I can see what you mean. However, point to me where near the start of this thread when he wanted this to be about TO and not 'by RAW, what rules can keep this from me'. By Raw, his gate methoding and wish methoding are 'too general' so he winds up screwed in the end. His DM is 'a computer' so he need to be 'less general' to get what he wants with no problems.
This is TO. I've spelled out the full word many times. You've merely chosen to ignore it.
This is TO. I've spelled out the full word many times. You've merely chosen to ignore it.
And as I and others have pointed out many times, true TO assumes the absence of DM assistance (or opposition.) Your exercise here is not TO, because it requires a DM's help (whereas Pun-Pun does not.)
It's like calling a custom spell TO; they are not, because they require DM assistance, just like your magic stick would.
And as I and others have pointed out many times, true TO assumes the absence of DM assistance (or opposition.) Your exercise here is not TO, because it requires a DM's help (whereas Pun-Pun does not.)
It's like calling a custom spell TO; they are not, because they require DM assistance, just like your magic stick would.
Then what do you call pun pun using a candle of invocation generated through an efreeti? What do you call the custom abilities he gains?
Quote:
Manipulate Form (Su): At will, Pil'it'ith can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures. With a successful touch attack, he can cause one alteration of his choice in the target creature's body. The target falls unconscious for 2d4 rounds due to the shock of changing form. A successful DC 23 Fortitude negates both the change and the unconsciousness.
Pil'it'ith may use this ability to change a minor aspect of the target creature, such as the shape of its head or the color of its scales. He may also choose to make a much more significant alteration, such as converting limbs into tentacles, changing overall body shape (snake to humanoid, for example), or adding or removing an appendage. Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1 or increased to a maximum equal to Pil'it'ith's corresponding score. Pil'it'ith may also grant the target an extraordinary ability or remove one from it.
The change bestowed takes effect immediately and is permanent. Furthermore, the alterations are automatically passed on to all the creature's offspring when it breeds with another of its unmodified kind.
How is that a "custom ability?" You just quoted it. It exists in the rules. (Specifically, SK pg. 61.) It wasn't invented by a hypothetical permissive DM the way your stick, or any of its non-existent powers, was.
This is not TO, but 'by raw, stop this from happening' in a nutshell or atleast started out as before it became 'oh crap. my way doesn't work. wahh.' Something that you have chosen to ignore because we killed your method.
Palilil: Even then, manipulate form from that guy has specific rules/restrictions in which the form is given. Going by the other guys ( have not seen it myself though riding on their word ?), Pun-Pun gains his while still following rules/restrictions of getting said abilities and sterf while 'getting around the prereqs' via previous gained abilities and sterf.
Last edited by animewatcha : 09-17-2012 at 12:24 AM.
How is that a "custom ability?" You just quoted it. It exists in the rules. (Specifically, SK pg. 61.) It wasn't invented by a hypothetical permissive DM the way your stick, or any of its non-existent powers, was.
It exists. But do the powers it grants? Such as the I Win power?
Quote:
Or, he could grant himself an ability as powerful as: I Win Benefit: Pun-Pun cannot be harmed, directly or indirectly. Any act that would harm him automatically fails, at any place and at any given time.
How is that a "custom ability?" You just quoted it. It exists in the rules. (Specifically, SK pg. 61.) It wasn't invented by a hypothetical permissive DM the way your stick, or any of its non-existent powers, was.
Not sure why he doesn't just change his idea to "I use wish to grant myself every power that is imaginable or not imaginable." Using the same straw man logic.
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