Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[zimmerwald1915]

Originally Posted by Kish

Is, "Every character who has ever identified an undead creature by sight has ranks in Knowledge (Religion)" really a position you wish to put your weight behind?

If by "identified an undead" you mean "used the specific MM name of the undead in question, along with mentioning one or more of its powers", then yeah, that would pretty strongly indicate some ranks in Knowledge (religion). Vaarsuvius knows that she could come back as a ghost - naming the MM name specifically - and will retain her spellcasting should she do so - naming at least one of a ghost's powers, namely that applying the "ghost" template does not remove spellcasting from the base creature.

[karkus]

Let's go over the equation for Xykon's Magic Item That Grants Him Fire Immunity, shall we?

Energy Immunity is a 7th level Sorcerer spell, so that gives us a 14th-level minimum on caster level, as it was created by Xykon himself. A continuous effect with a 24-hour duration would be (spell level X caster level X 1,000) GPs, giving us a market price of 98,000 GPs(keep in mind that, if you are planning on having this for yourself, the price will be lower if made by a Wizard, and even lower if made by a Cleric or Druid). Although this would take 98 weeks to make (~2 years), he has had more than plenty of time on his hands to do so (unless if he took the Epic Level feat that would decimate this time, requiring only 10 weeks of time).

So there you have it. He possesses a magic item (most likely a Wonderous Item, as he already has that feat) that required 49,000 GPs in materials, and 3920 XP to craft. Boom. No absurd Epic rules needed. Just Complete Arcane (page 105) and the Dungeon Master's Guide (page 285).

[Claudius Maximus]

Or it could be the Ring of the Blazing Sun from Sandstorm, but that and your own theory both require non-core sources. These kinds of suggestions haven't been universally accepted since the thread tends towards core when possible.

Also, magic item creation is done at the rate of one day per 1000 gp in price, not one week.

[Gilphon]

I believe there was also the suggestion that instead of actual immunity, it was just resistance so strong that it was basically immunity for all practical purposes.

Don't believe that myself, but it's another way achieving the effect we've seen.

[KillingAScarab]

Originally Posted by karkus

He possesses a magic item (most likely a Wonderous Item, as he already has that feat)...

The stat blocks for Xykon and Redcloak currently indicate it is Redcloak who likely has craft wondrous item. The reason listed is in Start of Darkness.

Spoiler

Redcloak assists Xykon in becoming a lich. While they are planning the procedure, Redcloak says he can help in the creation of his phylactery. If memory serves, this was a panel or two before he suggests creating the phylactery out of his holy symbol. I am away from the book, so I suppose it could have been a reference to gathering other raw materials needed from their surroundings at the time, or an "aid another" situation since he tells Xykon the creation doesn't actually require any spells to be cast. Hmm... Perhaps someone can point out the current logic a bit better?

Edit after finding book:

Spoiler

OK, so the decision to make the phylactery Redcloak's holy symbol came later. Redcloak's exact words to Xykon, "You would need to build a special phylactery. It would hold your soul if your body was ever destroyed. I can help you with that, though -- there's no spellcasting involved."
The context you need to know is that Xykon's spellcasting was inhibited at that point. Then the raw materials question comes up and it seems unrelated to Redcloak's ability, other than showing he has some knowledge of using plants for magical purposes. So, it's looking to me as if Xykon could be the one with Craft Wondrous Item, and Redcloak might just have enough ranks in a craft skill to be able to "aid another," if that was even required after deciding to use the holy symbol.

[Maugan Ra]

I believe that when Redcloak gets angry over the others torturing O-Chul for giggles (as opposed to practical reasons like he has), Xykon mentions that he can only craft items for eight hours a day despite not being able to sleep, and thus needs something else to do in that time.

Since we've seen him use Wondrous Items, but no staffs, rods, scrolls or weapons, it seems reasonable to conclude that Xykon has the Craft Wondrous Items feat (and considering he was old before he met Redcloak, the fact that the goblin has it is somewhat independent of whether Xykon felt it worth a feat slot).

[KillingAScarab]

Originally Posted by Maugan Ra

I believe that when Redcloak gets angry over the others torturing O-Chul for giggles (as opposed to practical reasons like he has), Xykon mentions that he can only craft items for eight hours a day despite not being able to sleep, and thus needs something else to do in that time.

That's the reason why the stat block currently lists him as having at least one craft feat.

Originally Posted by Maugan Ra

Since we've seen him use Wondrous Items...

Which does not require having an item creation feat. He does tend to collect them. He found and kept Dorukan's headband to cast cloister, though that's postulated to be a focus and not a magic item. He purchased the crystal ball and TeeVo.

Spoiler

In SoD, he has a ring which protects him from positive energy, but he says he "found it on eBay." But that's a ring and not a wondrous item, anyway.

There has only been one magic item I can think of which Xykon implied he crafted himself and we don't know what form it took.

Originally Posted by Maugan Ra

...but no staffs, rods, scrolls or weapons, it seems reasonable to conclude that Xykon has the Craft Wondrous Items feat...

You left out rings. Rings are actually the things we have seen Team Evil acquire most often, I believe. Tsukiko has one in the comic where she dies, but she did not in her fight with Haley. Xykon has a deflection bonus when Vaarsuvius attempts to use disintegrate on him, but no deflection was ever noted when Roy attacked him and it is noted in the stat block as coming from a ring of protection.

Redcloak also has a deflection bonus when he crushes the resistance... actually, I'm not sure what the source would be for that. Shield of law has a duration of one round per level and that was never cast in-panel by a cleric who would have had to do a lot of summoning or calling prior to that appearance. Shield of faith has a duration measured in minutes, but again, how long was he in the resistance headquarters? Perhaps he has a ring of protection, too?

Spoiler

He didn't seem to have one in SoD page 92.

It certainly never came up during the "climactic" cleric battle. A deflection bonus would have really been helpful against Soon and the ghost-martyrs of the Saphire Guard, though the smites would likely hit.

Hmm... I really know nothing about how magic traps are made. Could the traps triggered by Vaarsuvius have required a craft feat?

[karkus]

Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus

Also, magic item creation is done at the rate of one day per 1000 gp in price, not one week.

Thank God.

And to others, I believe that it states that the lich-to-be must be the one with Craft Wonderous Item, and Redcloak could've just meant that he had some of the requisite components for the process of becoming a lich, but I could be mistaken, as I have not read SoD.

Also, I don't think that we should worry about the magic traps in regards to Team Evil. I don't believe that there are any exact rules for players to make their own magical traps, rather than the general guidelines presented in the DMG, as it is more for the lairs of the Bad Guys. Even so, if I were a DM in this scenario, I would allow those traps to be one-shot, triggered Wonderous Items, at the very least.

And I don't think that those effects were deflection bonuses. The same effect was seen on the Death Knight, I believe, during the battle for Azure City when V attempted to Disintegrate him and it fizzled out of the way. I'm fairly certain that liches have SR, and it wouldn't be that hard for Redcloak to have had it during the times that KillingAScarab mentioned.

[zimmerwald1915]

Originally Posted by karkus

And I don't think that those effects were deflection bonuses. The same effect was seen on the Death Knight, I believe, during the battle for Azure City when V attempted to Disintegrate him and it fizzled out of the way. I'm fairly certain that liches have SR, and it wouldn't be that hard for Redcloak to have had it during the times that KillingAScarab mentioned.

When Disintegrate bounced off Xykon, there is a "deflect" sound effect in blue lettering just below where the beam hit. There is no such sound effect anywhere near the Death Knight, and we are told immediately after that SR was responsible. In other words, the beam might look the same, but the reasons for its not working are different. And no, the lich template does not confer SR.

[Flame of Anor]

Originally Posted by Kish

Why is Miko listed as an ex-paladin then?

She asserted, very loudly and very clearly, that she had never Fallen. She was certainly not joking.

In that case we had information which was clearly more trustworthy than Miko's own dialogue. In the case of Vaarsuvius, we have nothing to suggest that s/he does not actually have ranks in Knowledge: Religion.

Originally Posted by Kish

But very well. Suppose that this thread has a rule to believe what characters say about themselves unless it is clearly a joke. Then, in addition to taking the "Ex-" off Miko's class, we'd better give Vaarsuvius a Knowledge (Religion) rank of...50? 60? Higher? Because s/he said his/her knowledge was unmatched. If we cannot observe that this is Vaarsuvius bragging as per his/her usual, then we certainly cannot attempt to parse the word "unmatched" down to "decent for a wizard who justifies not knowing the casting time for Resurrection because 'divine magic isn't real magic.'"

In this case we do have clear evidence which says that "unmatched" cannot be taken literally. Vaarsuvius could not at the time have had more than--what, 14? 15?--ranks in a class skill. This is readily explainable by his/her tendency towards exaggeration, but it does not mean that s/he made up having the skill at all.

Originally Posted by Kish

Is, "Every character who has ever identified an undead creature by sight has ranks in Knowledge (Religion)" really a position you wish to put your weight behind?

As zimmerwald said, Vaarsuvius on multiple occasions displayed more knowledge of undead than simple identification of common types.

[Sorator]

I suppose it's fair to list it as a skill V likely has ranks in, unless/until more specific info is made available. I'm still skeptical, but I freely admit I have little proof to base that on.

[Flame of Anor]

And, what's more--I just thought of this--"unmatched" might not even be an exaggeration at all, if Vaarsuvius means unmatched among the party. We know for a fact that Durkon does not have very many ranks in Knowledge: Religion, and no other party member is likely to have any.

[karkus]

Thog has little to no ranks in Use Rope.

(He "never made tenderfoot;" 16th panel overall, 1st panel of second page)

[zimmerwald1915]

So I know we don't like talking about Xykon's level 'round these parts, but I was reading through the archives and noticed this gem. I don't suppose anything can be deduced from that "a day and a half, give or take a few hours"?

[Steven]

Wouldn't it be hard to pin down since it's a custom spell?
Would making a force cage easily escapable increase or decrease the level of the spell?

With standard force cage that would put X's caster level at 14-22 so it's probably not that useful since other things tend to put him above that.

[KillingAScarab]

Originally Posted by Steven

Wouldn't it be hard to pin down since it's a custom spell?
Would making a force cage easily escapable increase or decrease the level of the spell?

With standard force cage that would put X's caster level at 14-22 so it's probably not that useful since other things tend to put him above that.

Not to mention that Xykon was saying exactly what he needed to say to push her to escape. He wanted to scry on her when she reached Azure City, not give her accurate information about his spellcasting abilities. Bluff is a class skill for sorcerers, after all.

[ghoul-n]

Btw what's up with Miko's face @ panel #3 anyway D:

[KillingAScarab]

Originally Posted by ghoul-n

Btw what's up with Miko's face @ panel #3 anyway D:

Xykon's not looking at her anymore and she's going from a scowl to a smile. She believes the Big Bad is too confident and, according to panel 4, she's going to get some major glory.

[Math_Mage]

Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915

So I know we don't like talking about Xykon's level 'round these parts, but I was reading through the archives and noticed this gem. I don't suppose anything can be deduced from that "a day and a half, give or take a few hours"?

Puts X at 18, +/- 2 levels, given standard duration. But this was before Rich started throwing around epic spells, and before he wrote SoD, so X could have gotten a retroactive power-up in the meantime. Too, a moderately escapable forcecage may have reduced duration as well as reduced anchoring. So, nothing definite.

[Kurald Galain]

Xykon's got no reason to lie to Miko about the duration; the point is that the cage lasts long enough for her that waiting is not an option. Any number over 4 hours or so would have sufficed.

It's more in Xykon's character that he can't be bothered to remember how long exactly his spells last. He probably doesn't remember how much damage his meteor swarms do, either: if one is not enough, he'll simply cast a second. And a third.

[ghoul-n]

Is there any particular prerequisites for disarm in 3.5 or everyone can attempt it and just roll DC?

[karkus]

Originally Posted by ghoul-n

Is there any particular prerequisites for disarm in 3.5 or everyone can attempt it and just roll DC?

Everyone can do it, it's just a bit of a pain in the ass if you don't have the special feat for it.

[Kalrany]

Originally Posted by KillingAScarab

That's the reason why the stat block currently lists him as having at least one craft feat.

Which does not require having an item creation feat. He does tend to collect them. He found and kept Dorukan's headband to cast cloister, though that's postulated to be a focus and not a magic item. He purchased the crystal ball and TeeVo.

Spoiler

In SoD, he has a ring which protects him from positive energy, but he says he "found it on eBay." But that's a ring and not a wondrous item, anyway.

There has only been one magic item I can think of which Xykon implied he crafted himself and we don't know what form it took.

True. X does collect things that may have some use. But was that one that he made or aquired?
What about the Ball of Insanity?
How about

Spoiler

the soul gem

from the SoD?
These are all ambiguous to me.

[ti'esar]

The "ball of insanity" was just an ordinary bouncing ball with a symbol of insanity inscribed on it. It wasn't a magic item.

[karkus]

Originally Posted by Kalrany

How about

Spoiler

the soul gem

from the SoD?

I've never read SoD, but I did (foolishly) read the spoiler. If he cast you-know-what with it, then that actually means that it was the focus to the spell, not a magic item.

[Kish]

Originally Posted by ti'esar

The "ball of insanity" was just an ordinary bouncing ball with a symbol of insanity inscribed on it. It wasn't a magic item.

Similarly, Soul Bind is a spell that traps someone's soul in a gem, not the command word to activate a "soul gem."

[Kurald Galain]

Originally Posted by Kalrany

What about the Ball of Insanity?
How about (REDACTED) from the SoD?

Both are created by casting a regular spell on a regular object. He already possessed a bouncy ball and a (NOT AVAILABLE AT YOUR SECURITY CLEARANCE), then he cast the Symbol spell and (CLASSIFIED) on them, respectively. Neither requires crafting.

[ghoul-n]

Hmmm, can this be counted as Nale having Improved Disarm then :D? No visible AOOs here.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0361.html

This would also indicate that he must have Combat Expertise and Int 13+.

[RMS Oceanic]

Originally Posted by ghoul-n

Hmmm, can this be counted as Nale having Improved Disarm then :D? No visible AOOs here.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0361.html

This would also indicate that he must have Combat Expertise and Int 13+.

This has been questioned before: Does the fact an AOO isn't visible mean one wasn't triggered? After all, people aren't obligated to act on an AOO that is triggered.

[Shale]

Also, in that particular circumstance, it may be safe to call the Rookie flat-footed.